Bay Ridge R train often leaving 59th St (Bklyn) as N express arriving

[TwoTimer]

I seem to get the opposite problem: my train being held for a while for connecting passengers.

 

Before you folks start slinging words like "selfish" and "impatient" let me ask if this even makes sense:

1. The meets an at Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center.

    

2. The encounters some delays along the way and meets the same at 36 Street.

    

3. The leaves, but the is held to make a connection to a second pulling into 36 Street.

    

4. The reaches 59 Street to make the same connection with the first .

 

It has been even worse before, but this is just a recent example.

 

 

Ive seen connects to at Atlantic. No delays on 4Av express, but connects to same which would be 2 stations away when it got to 36st because the next is still in Manhattan. reaches 59th then connects again to that (not usually, but sometimes). Sometimes they then hold that at 36st to connect to a behind the . So the 's load is already heavier at Atlantic than usual because of the connection, then again at 36st with two connections (more people coming over from that same ,then the ). Then you wonder why railfans complain about the line being slow, even in Brooklyn.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That most Bay Ridge residents don't care when the X27 runs, or even that it runs at all.

That's funny because Senator Golden's office was flooded with complaints about wanting the X27 fully restored, so clearly someone doesn't know what they're talking about and it sure as heck isn't me, since I was involved in getting the service restored.

 

Lightly used local bus lines generally exist to provide coverage - without them, parts of the city would have no transit service at all. While there are some exceptions in Staten Island, almost all of the express buses serve areas that also have local bus service that connects with the subway (or, in the case of Staten Island, the ferry). Express buses are certainly convenient, but they're generally not essential to the transit network.

 

I think the would disagree with that.

 

A full express bus holds 57 riders. A full R train holds 1400 people. Almost 25 busloads would fit onto a single train. What seems like a large number of riders to a frequent express bus rider is in fact a tiny number of riders at a systemwide level.

It's ridiculous to even compare a bus to a subway. Obviously the amount of riders that one can hold compared to the other differs significantly. The same is true of a local bus as well. Also an express bus seats 57. It can hold more than that if need be. I know this from experience.

 

When the weekend X27 was cut, it carried 1080 riders per day (on weekends) - that's 77% of one trainload, over the course of the entire day. (The X28 carried 760, or 54% of a trainload.) The 86th Street station alone - one of several subway stations in Bay Ridge - had 5716 riders per day on weekends in 2011.

Express buses generally don't serve very dense areas to begin with and again have a completely different purpose from that of a subway so I don't even see the point of bringing this up.

 

Express buses are great when subway service is knocked out - for the handful of subway riders who can fit on the bus. The overwhelming majority will not. Because my transportation services carry as many people on one train as yours do in one day.

 

Buses are meant to complement subways NOT replace them. That's why it is totally foolish to even compare buses (be it a local bus or an express bus to a subway). Each serves a function and it's not all about how many people they carry either. The sooner you and others get that the quicker you can stop going on and on about this nonsense.

 

True, but I have to say the problem is more apparent @ 59th b/w the N & the R lines.... it happens in both directions too.

 

That's interesting... I usually find going to Manhattan with the and then the transfer to be far less problematic. Then again even if you miss an they come far more frequently than the does so it usually isn't a big deal in terms of the wait.

[qjtransitmaster]

Tonight was another terrible commute to Bay Ridge. Standing-room only Coney-Island bound N train pulls into 59th St Bklyn at 9:45pm, as the R train is pulling out. People were incredulous and screaming that it happened again. Next Bay Ridge R train did not arrive until 10:03pm, which is an 18 minute wait.

 

Who was the dispatcher who allowed this to happen? This unfortunately is a regular occurrence. I can't understand why the R wasn't held for 10 seconds when the next R train was a full 18 minutes away. This is total incompetence.

 

Now you know why I AVOID THE AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!

[j express]

Today I see the same situation happen twice to me. When I got on a 95st bound an Coney Island bound arrives. When I was on Manhattan bound arriving at 59st the was leaving the station at 10mph.

 

When during a G.O when trains are running via the in one direction or both do they connect with trains at 59st?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

When during a G.O when trains are running via the in one direction or both do they connect with trains at 59st?

 

It seems to vary. I've seen some s pull in on the track and then make their way over to the express tracks once they leave 59th...

[B3 Via Av U]

Wow. What a control tower epic failure.

 

I can't believe the stupidity of whoever runs that tower. It's just a freakin' switch or button to turn or press, and BAM! You have holding lights? What's wrong with this idiot?

[Dan05979]

Wow. What a control tower epic failure.

 

I can't believe the stupidity of whoever runs that tower. It's just a freakin' switch or button to turn or press, and BAM! You have holding lights? What's wrong with this idiot?

 

 

Go ask them. There inside the Jackie Gleason Depot. Sometimes they throw lights on my train when there's no connection to be made.

[RtrainBlues]

Surprisingly everything worked out tonight - this was the first time in MONTHS that I've seen the holding lights at 59th St Brooklyn at this time on a weeknight, so someone was paying attention to the complaints generated. The Coney Island bound N was just as packed, pulled into 59th St Brooklyn at 10:03pm tonight, and the Bay Ridge R was given the holding lights. We surprisingly made the R train connection. I only hope that this continues.

[8thAveExpress]

Surprisingly everything worked out tonight - this was the first time in MONTHS that I've seen the holding lights at 59th St Brooklyn at this time on a weeknight, so someone was paying attention to the complaints generated. The Coney Island bound N was just as packed, pulled into 59th St Brooklyn at 10:03pm tonight, and the Bay Ridge R was given the holding lights. We surprisingly made the R train connection. I only hope that this continues.

 

 

...or you got lucky. Even Arod got lucky 3 times this postseason, with 3 hits.

[realizm]

Slightly off topic but what I've always wondered is why we have D trains back to back coming into Brooklyn at Alantic-Pacific with no N train in sight for ten minutes or more --- during rush hour when headways are supposed to be at a minimum. It kills me when I'm at the mercy of the back to back D trains walking from the West End Line @ New Uterect then walking a mission to where I need to go when I'm trying to get to the same destination by simply going on the Sea Beach Express getting off at the appropriate stop.

 

Bottlenecking at Dekalb? I could never fugure that one out.

[TwoTimer]

Delays.

[qjtransitmaster]

I seem to get the opposite problem: my train being held for a while for connecting passengers.

 

Before you folks start slinging words like "selfish" and "impatient" let me ask if this even makes sense:

1. The meets an at Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center.

    

2. The encounters some delays along the way and meets the same at 36 Street.

    

3. The leaves, but the is held to make a connection to a second pulling into 36 Street.

    

4. The reaches 59 Street to make the same connection with the first .

 

It has been even worse before, but this is just a recent example.

 

This is what I have to say about the

[checkmatechamp13]

That's interesting... I usually find going to Manhattan with the and then the transfer to be far less problematic. Then again even if you miss an they come far more frequently than the does so it usually isn't a big deal in terms of the wait.

 

 

The can have its problems too. There are times when 2 ®s have come before an at 59th Street.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

 

The can have its problems too. There are times when 2 ®s have come before an at 59th Street.

 

All lines have problems at times. What is the point of stating the obvious?

[CenSin]

All lines have problems at times. What is the point of stating the obvious?

 

These problems are simple and takes just a bit more effort from the humans that are responsible to solve; it's a valid issue to complain/whine/rant about. Your statement would have made sense if applied to trains breaking down every so often.

[AndrewJC]

Well, as I've said before Staten Island is the exception. Here, they actually are a necessity because people's travel times would be significantly increased without them. For example, from the Fingerboard Road stop to Lower Manhattan takes 20 minutes on the express bus, compared to close to an hour on the local bus (S52 to the ferry), and that's not even including the stress of worrying about whether you'll make the connection. The same thing from further out neighborhoods. From my area, you're talking a good 30-40 minutes just to reach the ferry, plus the time on the ferry itself, whereas the X17 can get you to Lower Manhattan in 30-40 minutes alone.

 

 

Here I must respectfully disagree. Where you choose to live is up to you. Some parts of the city have longer commutes to Manhattan than others, and it's no secret that most of Staten Island is on the long end.

 

Most New Yorkers take commute time into account when choosing where to live and have to make sacrifices, such as paying more for housing, in exchange for reducing their travel time. Why should someone who is paying extra to live near the subway also be expected to subsidize express bus service, which costs far more per rider to operate than the subway, to benefit someone who isn't?

 

Express buses are not a necessity, even in Staten Island. They are a costly convenience, and their cost should be borne by those who use them.

 

Actually, it was 1,080 riders total (Saturday & Sunday combined). But......

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. That makes my argument twice as strong.

 

I don't think the farebox recovery ratio was "absurdly" low on the X27. On the weekends, it was a little under 50%, and maybe with the reduced frequencies, it'll be a little higher. I mean, it's a 15 minute walk to the unless you want to deal with an infrequent crosstown route, and then you have to worry about the making the connection to the (if you're going to Lower Manhattan, it doesn't make much of a difference if you catch the , but then the X27 has an advantage because it gets right on the Gowanus.

 

 

The average farebox recovery ratio for NYCT local buses is (or was, in 2010) 79% on weekdays and 84% on weekends. In comparison to that, in my opinion, 46% is absurdly low. The weekend X27 had to be subsidized $4.72 per rider on top of the $3.99 paid by the average rider, while the typical weekend local bus had to be subsidized only $0.25 per rider on top of the $1.29 paid by the average rider. I consider that absurd.

 

That's funny because Senator Golden's office was flooded with complaints about wanting the X27 fully restored, so clearly someone doesn't know what they're talking about and it sure as heck isn't me, since I was involved in getting the service restored.

 

 

A politician's office is "flooded" by hundreds or even dozens of complaints. The subway stations in Bay Ridge have many times the usage of the X27 - the 86th Street station alone has over 11,000 entries, and presumably a similar number of exits, per weekday and per weekend (Saturday + Sunday), most by Bay Ridge residents. The vast majority of Bay Ridge residents who ride transit to Manhattan use the subway, not the express bus.

 

It's ridiculous to even compare a bus to a subway. Obviously the amount of riders that one can hold compared to the other differs significantly. The same is true of a local bus as well. Also an express bus seats 57. It can hold more than that if need be. I know this from experience.

 

 

On the contrary, comparing the pros and cons of the various modes is essential in developing a sound transportation policy.

 

The guideline capacity of an express bus is 57. The guideline capacity of an R train is 1,400. Crush capacity is higher in both cases.

 

Express buses generally don't serve very dense areas to begin with and again have a completely different purpose from that of a subway so I don't even see the point of bringing this up.

 

 

No, the purpose is exactly the same: to transport people from one place to another. And express buses are funded out of the same pot of money as local buses and subways. Pretending that they have nothing to do with each other isn't going to fly.

 

Buses are meant to complement subways NOT replace them. That's why it is totally foolish to even compare buses (be it a local bus or an express bus to a subway). Each serves a function and it's not all about how many people they carry either. The sooner you and others get that the quicker you can stop going on and on about this nonsense.

 

 

I'm sorry, I was responding to your remark that "buses are extremely handy when subway service isn't available or as we saw the other day, gets knocked out." So you've changed your mind?

 

That's interesting... I usually find going to Manhattan with the and then the transfer to be far less problematic. Then again even if you miss an they come far more frequently than the does so it usually isn't a big deal in terms of the wait.

 

 

The N and R run at the same headway most of the time (6 minutes rush hours, 10 minutes middays and weekends). During transition periods they're not exactly the same, and of course the R only runs as a shuttle overnight.

 

Wow. What a control tower epic failure.

 

I can't believe the stupidity of whoever runs that tower. It's just a freakin' switch or button to turn or press, and BAM! You have holding lights? What's wrong with this idiot?

 

 

There's lots of stuff going on in the tower. Nobody's paying exclusive attention to 59th Street to make sure all connections are made.

 

Go ask them. There inside the Jackie Gleason Depot. Sometimes they throw lights on my train when there's no connection to be made.

 

 

Holding lights aren't only used for connections. They're also used to hold a train that's ahead of schedule, to hold a train in a station if there's a blockage downstream, to even out service if there's a delay upstream.

[CDTA]

Here I must respectfully disagree. Where you choose to live is up to you. Some parts of the city have longer commutes to Manhattan than others, and it's no secret that most of Staten Island is on the long end.

Most New Yorkers take commute time into account when choosing where to live and have to make sacrifices, such as paying more for housing, in exchange for reducing their travel time. Why should someone who is paying extra to live near the subway also be expected to subsidize express bus service, which costs far more per rider to operate than the subway, to benefit someone who isn't?

Express buses are not a necessity, even in Staten Island. They are a costly convenience, and their cost should be borne by those who use them.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes my argument twice as strong.

The average farebox recovery ratio for NYCT local buses is (or was, in 2010) 79% on weekdays and 84% on weekends. In comparison to that, in my opinion, 46% is absurdly low. The weekend X27 had to be subsidized $4.72 per rider on top of the $3.99 paid by the average rider, while the typical weekend local bus had to be subsidized only $0.25 per rider on top of the $1.29 paid by the average rider. I consider that absurd.

A politician's office is "flooded" by hundreds or even dozens of complaints. The subway stations in Bay Ridge have many times the usage of the X27 - the 86th Street station alone has over 11,000 entries, and presumably a similar number of exits, per weekday and per weekend (Saturday + Sunday), most by Bay Ridge residents. The vast majority of Bay Ridge residents who ride transit to Manhattan use the subway, not the express bus.

On the contrary, comparing the pros and cons of the various modes is essential in developing a sound transportation policy.

The guideline capacity of an express bus is 57. The guideline capacity of an R train is 1,400. Crush capacity is higher in both cases.

No, the purpose is exactly the same: to transport people from one place to another. And express buses are funded out of the same pot of money as local buses and subways. Pretending that they have nothing to do with each other isn't going to fly.

I'm sorry, I was responding to your remark that "buses are extremely handy when subway service isn't available or as we saw the other day, gets knocked out." So you've changed your mind?

The N and R run at the same headway most of the time (6 minutes rush hours, 10 minutes middays and weekends). During transition periods they're not exactly the same, and of course the R only runs as a shuttle overnight.

There's lots of stuff going on in the tower. Nobody's paying exclusive attention to 59th Street to make sure all connections are made.

Holding lights aren't only used for connections. They're also used to hold a train that's ahead of schedule, to hold a train in a station if there's a blockage downstream, to even out service if there's a delay upstream.

 

 

I would just like to say, that according to most people the is a PITA, so....

[checkmatechamp13]

Here I must respectfully disagree. Where you choose to live is up to you. Some parts of the city have longer commutes to Manhattan than others, and it's no secret that most of Staten Island is on the long end.

 

Most New Yorkers take commute time into account when choosing where to live and have to make sacrifices, such as paying more for housing, in exchange for reducing their travel time. Why should someone who is paying extra to live near the subway also be expected to subsidize express bus service, which costs far more per rider to operate than the subway, to benefit someone who isn't?

 

Express buses are not a necessity, even in Staten Island. They are a costly convenience, and their cost should be borne by those who use them.

 

The average farebox recovery ratio for NYCT local buses is (or was, in 2010) 79% on weekdays and 84% on weekends. In comparison to that, in my opinion, 46% is absurdly low. The weekend X27 had to be subsidized $4.72 per rider on top of the $3.99 paid by the average rider, while the typical weekend local bus had to be subsidized only $0.25 per rider on top of the $1.29 paid by the average rider. I consider that absurd.

 

 

First of all, I assume you're applying that same argument to the MNRR & LIRR, whose FRRs are also lower than the subway.

 

I calculated the average cost per passenger on SI buses as roughly $2.50. (Or something in that area, at least before the service reductions). That means the farebox recovery ratio was also in the the 50% range. Does that mean that we should eliminate most SI routes? There are also some routes out in Eastern Queens that have a similar FRR. After all, we shouldn't have moved out to an area that requires more expensive transit to serve us.

 

If you want to think about it this way: Since the express fare is (for simplicity's sake), 2.5 times the local fare, you can think of it as the person paying for 2.5 people at the local fare instead of just themselves at a higher fare. IMO, percentages mean more than absolute numbers in these instances.

 

The way you say "convenience" makes it sound like there's an easy alternative. There isn't.

 

Aside from that, the high farebox recovery ratio isn't due to a lack of ridership. It's due to the nature of express buses, which is to have heavily peaked operations. Compare the weekend FRRs to the weekday FRRs and you'll see a huge difference. Back in 2010, the X1 cost $8.02 per passenger to operate, and I think the weekend service cost $4.83 to operate, which is a 53% FRR vs. an 83% FRR. Since then, I believe the weekday cost has decreased to $7.27 due to the restructuring they did, so that would be a 58% FRR.

 

In any case, if the MTA found a way to increase reverse-peak and off-peak ridership (while decreasing peak riderhship), they could make better use of their resources and the farebox recovery ratio would increase. The easiest way is through an off-peak discount.

 

I'm sorry, I was responding to your remark that "buses are extremely handy when subway service isn't available or as we saw the other day, gets knocked out." So you've changed your mind?

 

 

I'm not seeing how this refutes his point, though. He's saying buses are meant to compliment the subway, and one way they do that is by serving as a backup when there's a problem.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Here I must respectfully disagree. Where you choose to live is up to you. Some parts of the city have longer commutes to Manhattan than others, and it's no secret that most of Staten Island is on the long end.

 

Most New Yorkers take commute time into account when choosing where to live and have to make sacrifices, such as paying more for housing, in exchange for reducing their travel time. Why should someone who is paying extra to live near the subway also be expected to subsidize express bus service, which costs far more per rider to operate than the subway, to benefit someone who isn't?

 

Express buses are not a necessity, even in Staten Island. They are a costly convenience, and their cost should be borne by those who use them.

 

That's a completely absurd statement. That's like saying that the LIRR isn't necessary for Long Island. Your stance is quite arrogant and what you're basically saying is that if an area of the city isn't served particularly by a subway then **** them. In short these people can pay into the system but shouldn't have the service that they need. Disgusting. That's clearly your stance since you offer no reasonable alternatives.

 

A politician's office is "flooded" by hundreds or even dozens of complaints. The subway stations in Bay Ridge have many times the usage of the X27 - the 86th Street station alone has over 11,000 entries, and presumably a similar number of exits, per weekday and per weekend (Saturday + Sunday), most by Bay Ridge residents. The vast majority of Bay Ridge residents who ride transit to Manhattan use the subway, not the express bus.

 

Excuse me, but the X27 carries millions of riders every year #1 and #2 many of the Bay Ridge subway stations are not ADA accessible, which causes hardships for those people who can't reach the subway and the is well aware of this. The X27 serves commuters along Shore Rd, which is a schlepp from the subway and cuts down on the commutes to Manhattan considerably since it gives those commuters a one seat ride. Without, many would face unnecessary commutes well over an hour with several transfers via the subway. Your ignorant attitude is quite disgusting which basically says if a community doesn't have subway service well too bad. You seriously can't believe that subways can serve everyone and if you do you are sadly mistaken. The cost involved would be astronomical and thus bus service is far more practical.

 

On the contrary, comparing the pros and cons of the various modes is essential in developing a sound transportation policy.

 

The guideline capacity of an express bus is 57. The guideline capacity of an R train is 1,400. Crush capacity is higher in both cases.

 

Yes, the guideline capacity is 57. That is no secret. You really sound ridiculous comparing the capacity of an express bus to a subway. Subways are meant to serve dense areas. Express buses are meant to serve areas that don't have subway service and tend to be not as densely populated. I suppose you also believe that areas like Co-op city also don't need express bus service when they have absolutely no subway service in the immediate area.

 

No, the purpose is exactly the same: to transport people from one place to another. And express buses are funded out of the same pot of money as local buses and subways. Pretending that they have nothing to do with each other isn't going to fly.

 

No the general purpose is the same and you know it. However, how the two function are completely different, so you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

I'm sorry, I was responding to your remark that "buses are extremely handy when subway service isn't available or as we saw the other day, gets knocked out." So you've changed your mind?

 

No, not at all because I understand the function of buses (both local and express buses). You clearly don't.

 

The N and R run at the same headway most of the time (6 minutes rush hours, 10 minutes middays and weekends).

 

Well that's nice but what the schedule says and how they actually operate are two different things. You don't need to inform me on how they run. I've been using those lines for years since I'm originally from Southern Brooklyn.

[RTOMan]

Holding lights aren't only used for connections. They're also used to hold a train that's ahead of schedule, to hold a train in a station if there's a blockage downstream, to even out service if there's a delay upstream.

 

You Dont know Murphy Tower...

 

Ill leave it at that..

[Dan05979]

 

Holding lights aren't only used for connections. They're also used to hold a train that's ahead of schedule, to hold a train in a station if there's a blockage downstream, to even out service if there's a delay upstream.

 

 

Thanks for letting me know, all this time I never knew that.

[CenSin]

Just yesterday, a Bay Ridge-bound was held at 36 Street to make a connection with my . The was in turn held at 59 Street to wait for the same . Wouldn't it have made sense to let the go at 36 Street so both trains would meet up once at 59 Street and get to their destinations faster?

[Dan05979]

It could be the N was ahead of schedule, or the R.

[CenSin]

It could be the N was ahead of schedule, or the R.

 

I don't think the was ahead of schedule, but even if it were, it doesn't explain much.

[Dan05979]

I don't think the was ahead of schedule, but even if it were, it doesn't explain much.

 

 

I don't know what kind of answer your looking for. How do you know the N wasn't ahead of it scheduled time? Did you ask the crew or the tower? I don't know what else you want to hear for an answer.