How to alleviate overcrowding on the Lex lines with enhanced bus service

[qjtransitmaster]

Sorry to disagree with VG8. I think QJ is dead on in stating most riders prefer the subway than the bus. Plus CBTC is coming supposedly by end of this decade at the latest to the Lex line. Maybe a mini form of SBS such as installing MVM's at busy stops such as 14, 23rd, 42nd and 86 Sts. along with better enforcement of bus lanes would help.

 

Instead a full SBS is more needed on 5th/Madison lines which has 4 bus routes serving most of that coordior..

 

True it can speed up boarding for express buses too.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That isn't enough. The route has the highest weekday ridership, it needs more LTD service..

 

 

The problem is the M4 gets good local bus usage... For true express service it seems to me that the wants folks to use the subway. I will say that I do see some folks taking the M2 for example as opposed to the subway to get uptown, so perhaps the should re-think service to the 5th Ave corridor

[Quill Depot]

There should be a bus lane on Lex from 86th to around 34th.

[Threxx]

There should be a bus lane on Lex from 86th to around 34th.

 

 

I believe there is a bus lane on 3rd and Lex... it just needs to be enforced like the SBS lanes or better.

[Gorgor]

There is absolutely no way that any alteration of bus service on Lexington Avenue will alleviate overcrowding on the . Even if the bus only stops at stops, it will take forever because of traffic. There is absolutely no way that a bus on Lexington Avenue can compete with a 15 minute trip from 86th Street to Brooklyn Bridge on the .

 

Even if you have strict enforcement on bus lanes, cars legally making right turns in addition to general Midtown traffic will delay buses. The only way to completely avoid traffic is by using the FDR, and there's no chance of the MTA doing that again.

 

If there were to be an alternative made, it must not be on Lexington Avenue. People from 5th Avenue to the East River use the , and unless a bus can be faster than the subway, there's no chance of it doing anything to help overcrowding. If SBS were to be added, it would have to be on 5th/Madison, but traffic in Midtown is just so horrendous that it would be destine to fail.

 

The only real alternative would be the M17 plan I created a while back, although it could be modified to use Lexington/3rd Avenues north of 72nd Street, or run as a super express on 1st/2nd Avenues stopping at only major stops, such as 34th, 57th, 79th. A possible connection to the 125th Street via 124th and 126th Streets may be beneficial as well, but not necessary.

[checkmatechamp13]

Yeah, 5th/Madison doesn't have a subway and never will, an M1SBS is more needed there...

 

If it was to go SBS:

The M1 should be SBS.

The M2 should become local.

The M3 should be the new full time LTD.

All other routes would have no changes.

 

 

If you're going to make one route SBS, you might as well make the other routes SBS as well, so they can take advantage of the machines and everything.

 

In any case, the problem is that if you make one route a full SBS, that means there's no corresponding local for the standalone portion (in this case, 5th Avenue north of 110th). The only route that you could realistically put SBS on out of the East Side routes would be the M101 because the standalone portion can be covered fairly easily.

 

If the M101 were to receive SBS, I'd extend the M10 to 193rd Street so that the M102/103 cover the areas south of 125th Street, the M100 covers the areas along 125th Street and Amsterdam Avenue, and the M10 covers Amsterdam Avenue north of 163rd Street.

 

I mean, theoretically, the M1 could get a corresponding local service if you rerouted the M102 from Lenox Avenue to 5th/Madison Avenue, but then you're taking away the connection from Lenox to the areas further east.

 

In any case, no matter what you do, I doubt you'll see significant reduction in the crowding levels of the Lexington Avenue Line. Maybe it will decrease by like 2% or something, but long-term, the only thing that will help is SAS.

 

Why not make the M98 an all weekday service and make it go to 34 street, as an alternative to the M101.

 

 

That's basically the old pattern (except you're adding midday & evening service). I agree it should come back, but you shouldn't expect any real reduction in Lexington Avenue Line crowds.

[Gorgor]

If you're going to make one route SBS, you might as well make the other routes SBS as well, so they can take advantage of the machines and everything.

 

In any case, the problem is that if you make one route a full SBS, that means there's no corresponding local for the standalone portion (in this case, 5th Avenue north of 110th). The only route that you could realistically put SBS on out of the East Side routes would be the M101 because the standalone portion can be covered fairly easily.

 

If the M101 were to receive SBS, I'd extend the M10 to 193rd Street so that the M102/103 cover the areas south of 125th Street, the M100 covers the areas along 125th Street and Amsterdam Avenue, and the M10 covers Amsterdam Avenue north of 163rd Street.

 

I mean, theoretically, the M1 could get a corresponding local service if you rerouted the M102 from Lenox Avenue to 5th/Madison Avenue, but then you're taking away the connection from Lenox to the areas further east.

 

In any case, no matter what you do, I doubt you'll see significant reduction in the crowding levels of the Lexington Avenue Line. Maybe it will decrease by like 2% or something, but long-term, the only thing that will help is SAS.

 

 

 

That's basically the old pattern (except you're adding midday & evening service). I agree it should come back, but you shouldn't expect any real reduction in Lexington Avenue Line crowds.

 

 

Why the need to reroute buses should one get SBS? The M15 runs local buses in addition to the SBS, so any potential SBS route can have its own local version of itself.

[checkmatechamp13]

Why the need to reroute buses should one get SBS? The M15 runs local buses in addition to the SBS, so any potential SBS route can have its own local version of itself.

 

 

The M100 & M102/103 already act as locals. There's no point in creating a whole local route just for that little portion along Amsterdam.

[Quill Depot]

That M17 really wouldn't help... Most people get off from 59th to 42nd

[Threxx]

The M17 wouldn't get that much usage, you underestimate the importance of that 14th Street stop. It would get OK usage in the financial district and in Upper Manhattan, but people wouldn't use the non-stop segment.

[qjtransitmaster]

 

 

If you're going to make one route SBS, you might as well make the other routes SBS as well, so they can take advantage of the machines and everything.

 

In any case, the problem is that if you make one route a full SBS, that means there's no corresponding local for the standalone portion (in this case, 5th Avenue north of 110th). The only route that you could realistically put SBS on out of the East Side routes would be the M101 because the standalone portion can be covered fairly easily.

 

If the M101 were to receive SBS, I'd extend the M10 to 193rd Street so that the M102/103 cover the areas south of 125th Street, the M100 covers the areas along 125th Street and Amsterdam Avenue, and the M10 covers Amsterdam Avenue north of 163rd Street.

 

I mean, theoretically, the M1 could get a corresponding local service if you rerouted the M102 from Lenox Avenue to 5th/Madison Avenue, but then you're taking away the connection from Lenox to the areas further east.

 

In any case, no matter what you do, I doubt you'll see significant reduction in the crowding levels of the Lexington Avenue Line. Maybe it will decrease by like 2% or something, but long-term, the only thing that will help is SAS.

 

 

 

That's basically the old pattern (except you're adding midday & evening service). I agree it should come back, but you shouldn't expect any real reduction in Lexington Avenue Line crowds.

 

How about no touchy to M10 & 101? If anybody thinks a bus will take people off the then they are smoking drugs stronger than anything I've ever heard of. Leave M101 alone the set up is fine M10 HA very funny as if anyone would go for that.

[Threxx]

I think they would, actually. I've used the and at rush hour enough to know that those trains really are slow and delayed all the time. I think most would welcome an alternative.

[MHV9218]

The only real alternative would be the M17 plan I created a while back, although it could be modified to use Lexington/3rd Avenues north of 72nd Street, or run as a super express on 1st/2nd Avenues stopping at only major stops, such as 34th, 57th, 79th. A possible connection to the 125th Street via 124th and 126th Streets may be beneficial as well, but not necessary.

 

 

How in the world is that the "only real alternative?" That's the worst alternative. There's a massive amount of ridership below 23rd (the most used stop on the 15 is easily 14th St) and that route just sticks it to all of us going to the East Village, Chinatown, and the LES. You basically drew up the x90 2.0. If the x90 had been a good model, we'd still have it.

[Threxx]

How in the world is that the "only real alternative?" That's the worst alternative. There's a massive amount of ridership below 23rd (the most used stop on the 15 is easily 14th St) and that route just sticks it to all of us going to the East Village, Chinatown, and the LES. You basically drew up the x90 2.0. If the x90 had been a good model, we'd still have it.

 

 

He lives in Yorkville. He created a route that would benefit him and screw others.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

How in the world is that the "only real alternative?" That's the worst alternative. There's a massive amount of ridership below 23rd (the most used stop on the 15 is easily 14th St) and that route just sticks it to all of us going to the East Village, Chinatown, and the LES. You basically drew up the x90 2.0. If the x90 had been a good model, we'd still have it.

 

In his defense, the X90 had okay ridership. But thats not the only alternative, I Agree.

[Gorgor]

I think they would, actually. I've used the and at rush hour enough to know that those trains really are slow and delayed all the time. I think most would welcome an alternative.

 

 

I take the every day also, but from Brooklyn Bridge to the Upper East Side never takes any longer than half an hour, even with extreme delays. There's no chance that a bus route can compete with that.

[Threxx]

I take the every day also, but from Brooklyn Bridge to the Upper East Side never takes any longer than half an hour, even with extreme delays. There's no chance that a bus route can compete with that.

 

 

You can't just completely dismiss the possibility of bus service though...

 

If no one used those three routes we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Gorgor]

You can't just completely dismiss the possibility of bus service though...

 

If no one used those three routes we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing at the fact that improved bus service could fix overcrowding, it's just that I don't really see any feasible solution that would get people off the subway and into a bus.

 

People coming from the Bronx, who could've already used up their transfer from taking a local bus before, aren't going to get off and board a bus, even if it can miraculously run as fast as the train. The only potential in a bus service would be to cater to those commuters traveling within Manhattan, and if it's running directly above the subway then it has to be just as fast as it in order to work.

 

The average time on a between 86th Street and Brooklyn Bridge would probably be about 15-20 minutes, and I'm pretty sure even a police car with its lights on would have extreme difficulties driving all the way down Lexington Avenue and take any route that could reach Brooklyn Bridge within 20 minutes during rush hour.

 

I ride the every day and I would never even consider taking a bus through the middle of Midtown to get Downtown instead of the subway.

[checkmatechamp13]

How about no touchy to M10 & 101? If anybody thinks a bus will take people off the then they are smoking drugs stronger than anything I've ever heard of. Leave M101 alone the set up is fine M10 HA very funny as if anyone would go for that.

 

 

Would it kill you to read the whole post?

 

In any case, no matter what you do, I doubt you'll see significant reduction in the crowding levels of the Lexington Avenue Line. Maybe it will decrease by like 2% or something, but long-term, the only thing that will help is SAS.

[qjtransitmaster]

 

 

Would it kill you to read the whole post?

 

In any case, no matter what you do, I doubt you'll see significant reduction in the crowding levels of the Lexington Avenue Line. Maybe it will decrease by like 2% or something, but long-term, the only thing that will help is SAS.

 

Dude I wasn't clear I wasn't referring to you in general sorry if you felt that way it was directed at people period.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm not disagreeing at the fact that improved bus service could fix overcrowding, it's just that I don't really see any feasible solution that would get people off the subway and into a bus.

 

People coming from the Bronx, who could've already used up their transfer from taking a local bus before, aren't going to get off and board a bus, even if it can miraculously run as fast as the train. The only potential in a bus service would be to cater to those commuters traveling within Manhattan, and if it's running directly above the subway then it has to be just as fast as it in order to work.

 

The average time on a between 86th Street and Brooklyn Bridge would probably be about 15-20 minutes, and I'm pretty sure even a police car with its lights on would have extreme difficulties driving all the way down Lexington Avenue and take any route that could reach Brooklyn Bridge within 20 minutes during rush hour.

 

I ride the every day and I would never even consider taking a bus through the middle of Midtown to get Downtown instead of the subway.

 

 

But what do you call the M15SBS??

[Gorgor]

But what do you call the M15SBS??

 

 

The M15 SBS doesn't pass through the middle of Midtown, as in the heart of all the congestion and traffic. 1st Avenue only gets traffic regularly by the 59th Street bridge, and that only really affects the left side of the street. Occasionally if the FDR Drive is really backed up cars will use 1st Avenue instead and clog that up as well, but that's rare. 2nd Avenue can be a bit slow during rush hour by the bridge and tunnel, but nowhere near as bad as the other avenues in the middle of Midtown.

 

And anyways, I'd never even consider taking the M15 SBS down to work, even if I did still work on Water Street. Endless SAS construction in addition to just general Manhattan traffic and a bunch of stops would make the trip an hour at least. 1st Avenue uptown is quite an easy ride though, and if there were an extension to the WFC then I would consider taking it because it would save me a ton of walking and transferring.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

The need to be more reliable from a wait time/speed perspective. Some days the take 10 minutes to get from 125 to Grand Central and other days it takes 20 (just as much time as the ). That's just too much irregularity for someone like me who is coming from the Bronx (North Bronx at that) and banks on getting to Midtown in less than an hour. My subway ride should be 40 minutes top during AM Rush but there have been several occasions where it has approached and gone over 60 minutes using these lines. An alternative for the Lex wouldn't be useful for most riders. Having the trains meet headways more consistently and move with some semblance of speed would help much more.

[Shortline Bus]

The need to be more reliable from a wait time/speed perspective. Some days the take 10 minutes to get from 125 to Grand Central and other days it takes 20 (just as much time as the ). That's just too much irregularity for someone like me who is coming from the Bronx (North Bronx at that) and banks on getting to Midtown in less than an hour. My subway ride should be 40 minutes top during AM Rush but there have been several occasions where it has approached and gone over 60 minutes using these lines. An alternative for the Lex wouldn't be useful for most riders. Having the trains meet headways more consistently and move with some semblance of speed would help much more.

 

 

Well said. Just expand M101 Limited service to run until 10pm weekdays and 9pm weekends (along with install some MVM & stricter enforcement of bus lanes along lex/3rd ave)and call it a day. You can maybe get a few Lex Subway local riders going to intermidate stops between say 96th and 68th St but not enough to expand into a full SBS service. Lex "express" subway riders traveling between the Bronx or East Harlem (125th)and Lower Manhattan are not going to get off and transfer for another form of transit.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The M15 SBS doesn't pass through the middle of Midtown, as in the heart of all the congestion and traffic. 1st Avenue only gets traffic regularly by the 59th Street bridge, and that only really affects the left side of the street. Occasionally if the FDR Drive is really backed up cars will use 1st Avenue instead and clog that up as well, but that's rare. 2nd Avenue can be a bit slow during rush hour by the bridge and tunnel, but nowhere near as bad as the other avenues in the middle of Midtown.

 

And anyways, I'd never even consider taking the M15 SBS down to work, even if I did still work on Water Street. Endless SAS construction in addition to just general Manhattan traffic and a bunch of stops would make the trip an hour at least. 1st Avenue uptown is quite an easy ride though, and if there were an extension to the WFC then I would consider taking it because it would save me a ton of walking and transferring.

 

 

I'm just not sold on the idea of SAS alleviating congestion on the line because people WANT Lexington and 3rd Avenues, along with Park & Madison because that's where the heart of the business is. SAS will only draw folks who either want to avoid the crowding of the Lex line but also don't mind walking further to get to their destination or really need 1st or 2nd Avenue. I know me personally having worked right near Grand Central, I would not schlepp over to 2nd Avenue for that subway. I still strongly believe that in order to have some sort of relief on the line, there needs to be alternatives right on Lex and 3rd Avenues, and I do realize that making the M101SBS probably wouldn't do that much, but I think it's a start. On the weekends Lex is a breeze, as is 3rd Avenue. The main issue with Lex is double parking. If you could get businesses to make deliveries outside of rush hours, say overnight, that would help tremendously with traffic right there. M101SBS would really only help folks in Manhattan, but I think the idea is to find a way to alleviate the overcrowding in the city especially since that's where the real issue is IMO.