Alan Rosen comments on fare hike meetings & Bronx/Queens LIRR/MNRR travel

[BrooklynBus]

Sheepshead Bites blog

 

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2012/10/on-fare-hike-the-day-to-speak-up-is-november-7/

[Via Garibaldi 8]

"The MTA also needs to rationalize Long Island Railroad (LIRR) fares within the city limits (at least during off-peak hours) so that it costs no more than the fare to ride an express bus. Without a huge fare deterrent to use the LIRR, the MTA might find that there will be a reduced need to provide more costly local and express bus service."

 

Could you elaborate on/clarify the quote above that you discussed in your blog?? My other question is with ridership at record highs on MetroNorth especially and with so many on Long Island and parts of Queens needing the LIRR, why are both so costly??? I would think that more ridership would reduce the overall costs no?? I would also like to see some costs for the LIRR and MetroNorth becuase if you have passengers paying more than they do for the express bus in most cases, then it clearly isn't that cheap to operate, especially when you consider that neither the LIRR or MetroNorth are closed door like the express bus is.

[User]

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/hearings/2012FareToll/pdfs/posters/Railroad8x11.pdf

 

All hearings begin at 5 PM; registration opens at 4 PM and closes at 8 PM.

 

Rush hour, how interesting. I'm debating whether or not to go to the Public Hearing in Farmingdale.

 

My other question is with ridership at record highs on MetroNorth especially and with so many on Long Island and parts of Queens needing the LIRR, why are both so costly???

 

The LIRR likes to waste money on stupid things. I believe there was a post here a couple of weeks ago about construction at stations being so costly because they were taking their sweet-ass time. That East-side access project is also costing more than expected if I'm correct and the people at the top don't want their salaries cut.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

http://www.mta.info/...ailroad8x11.pdf

 

All hearings begin at 5 PM; registration opens at 4 PM and closes at 8 PM.

 

Rush hour, how interesting. I'm debating whether or not to go to the Public Hearing in Farmingdale.

 

The LIRR likes to waste money on stupid things. I believe there was a post here a couple of weeks ago about construction at stations being so costly because they were taking their sweet-ass time. That East-side access project is also costing more than expected if I'm correct and the people at the top don't want their salaries cut.

 

lol... Yeah I posted that article, but that still doesn't quite explain why the LIRR is so expensive.

[Quill Depot]

Speaking up is not going to help... No offense to those who will speak up. I'm only against commuter fares going up, I'd rather have service cuts than a fare hike.

[FamousNYLover]

I'm going to public hearing at Farmingdale State College, Baruch College and Sheralton LGA Hotel and I planned to speak at all three public hearings.

 

I am so upset that Yonkers Public Library public hearing is same day as Sheralton LGA Hotel public hearing.

 

I am all SET to make my voice heard.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Speaking up is not going to help... No offense to those who will speak up. I'm only against commuter fares going up, I'd rather have service cuts than a fare hike.

 

lol... What are you talking about??? The fare hikes will happen regardless but certainly the public's input will have an impact on which plan is implemented.

[Quill Depot]

That's exactly what I said. I said, "Speaking up is not going to help."

[BrooklynBus]

"The MTA also needs to rationalize Long Island Railroad (LIRR) fares within the city limits (at least during off-peak hours) so that it costs no more than the fare to ride an express bus. Without a huge fare deterrent to use the LIRR, the MTA might find that there will be a reduced need to provide more costly local and express bus service."

 

Could you elaborate on/clarify the quote above that you discussed in your blog?? My other question is with ridership at record highs on MetroNorth especially and with so many on Long Island and parts of Queens needing the LIRR, why are both so costly??? I would think that more ridership would reduce the overall costs no?? I would also like to see some costs for the LIRR and MetroNorth becuase if you have passengers paying more than they do for the express bus in most cases, then it clearly isn't that cheap to operate, especially when you consider that neither the LIRR or MetroNorth are closed door like the express bus is.

 

 

The LIRR is very expensive. Why that is so I cannot answer. I was only talking about the costs to ride the LIRR within the city limits as compared to other forms of mass transit. For example, if it costs $8 from just outside the city limits to Penn Station, the cost to do the same from inside the city is only slightly less, like $6, more than the cost of an express bus. Just like our subways and buses, increased ridership will only lower operating costs if no additional trains need to be operated. I do not believe this is the case during the rush hours. However, I am pretty sure that in off-peak, say from 10 AM to 3PM. There are plenty of seats available. Those seats could be filled if several dollars were chopped off the fare, costing the LIRR nothing. The problem is that trains would have to make more stops and LIRR riders have always been against City residents using "their" trains because they don't want "those" people on their trains. So there has never been pressure on the MTA to lower the fares for intra-City travel, but pressure to keep them unfairly high.

 

If the fares were lowered during the off-peak, travel time would increase by three or four minutes for current LIRR riders, but the MTA could save much by not having to run some express buses all day long that carry only a handful of passengers. (Since the City subsidizes MTA Bus for its losses, there is no incentive for the MTA to make it more efficient which is why MTA bus cuts were so much less than NYCT cuts for express buses.) Also, during the rush hours when the LIRR is overcrowded, the conductor can't collect everyone's ticket, so adding extra trains wouldn't cost as much as projected.

 

I know they are thinking of adding stations to Metro-North in the Bronx. I don't know why they aren't considering this for Queens other than at Elmhurst.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The LIRR is very expensive. Why that is so I cannot answer. I was only talking about the costs to ride the LIRR within the city limits as compared to other forms of mass transit. For example, if it costs $8 from just outside the city limits to Penn Station, the cost to do the same from inside the city is only slightly less, like $6, more than the cost of an express bus. Just like our subways and buses, increased ridership will only lower operating costs if no additional trains need to be operated. I do not believe this is the case during the rush hours. However, I am pretty sure that in off-peak, say from 10 AM to 3PM. There are plenty of seats available. Those seats could be filled if several dollars were chopped off the fare, costing the LIRR nothing. The problem is that trains would have to make more stops and LIRR riders have always been against City residents using "their" trains because they don't want "those" people on their trains. So there has never been pressure on the MTA to lower the fares for intra-City travel, but pressure to keep them unfairly high.

 

If the fares were lowered during the off-peak, travel time would increase by three or four minutes for current LIRR riders, but the MTA could save much by not having to run some express buses all day long that carry only a handful of passengers. (Since the City subsidizes MTA Bus for its losses, there is no incentive for the MTA to make it more efficient which is why MTA bus cuts were so much less than NYCT cuts for express buses.) Also, during the rush hours when the LIRR is overcrowded, the conductor can't collect everyone's ticket, so adding extra trains wouldn't cost as much as projected.

 

I know they are thinking of adding stations to Metro-North in the Bronx. I don't know why they aren't considering this for Queens other than at Elmhurst.

 

 

Because then it wouldn't really be MetroNorth or the LIRR. Like you said it is supposed to serve mainly Long Island and Westchester and so I can understand where folks are coming from. I mean let's face it. These folks pay a lot to get to work and they're paying a premium for a quick commute. If you're going to have stops all over the place then it becomes more like a subway. For example when I've used MetroNorth when I would come from Riverdale the cut off line in terms of what seemed to be acceptable stations was Marble Hill. After that all of those other stops seem rather annoying and not worth stopping for. Those folks can take the subway.

[Kamen Rider]

The simple fact of the matter is they're not designed to be complemtary to the TA services. they're ment to be seperate.

[Shortline Bus]

Because then it wouldn't really be MetroNorth or the LIRR. Like you said it is supposed to serve mainly Long Island and Westchester and so I can understand where folks are coming from. I mean let's face it. These folks pay a lot to get to work and they're paying a premium for a quick commute. If you're going to have stops all over the place then it becomes more like a subway. For example when I've used MetroNorth when I would come from Riverdale the cut off line in terms of what seemed to be acceptable stations was Marble Hill. After that all of those other stops seem rather annoying and not worth stopping for. Those folks can take the subway.

 

 

And what about Yankee Stadium? MNRR spent tens of millions to bulid that station. I do agree that on the Hudson Line a couple of Bronx stops such as University Heights (no more than a mile to Marble Hill) Morris Heights (I know COTB 16 may disagree lol) should be served less frequently i.e every 2 hours off peak.

[Kamen Rider]

you ever try moving 50,000 people in and out of one spot quickly? it's a bitch. Plus, there are all those who live in the northern suburbs who can now avoid parking at the game, like the Long Island Rail Road taking Mets fan counter parts.

[Shortline Bus]

you ever try moving 50,000 people in and out of one spot quickly? it's a bitch. Plus, there are all those who live in the northern suburbs who can now avoid parking at the game, like the Long Island Rail Road taking Mets fan counter parts.

 

 

The Yankee Stadium MNRR has been a huge success. It has even led to something once unthinkable since the forgotten times at the old yankee stadium with the late 1980's last place teams. Some parking spots avaiable most game days.

[blazer]

Speaking up is not going to help... No offense to those who will speak up. I'm only against commuter fares going up, I'd rather have service cuts than a fare hike.

 

 

really? they few cents or couple of dollars is worth more than your time standing on a platform in the stench and/or cold? i dont want either but would rather pay a little more.

 

lol... Yeah I posted that article, but that still doesn't quite explain why the LIRR is so expensive.

 

a few bad apples with disability scams

http://greatneck.patch.com/articles/opinion-the-monkey-in-the-middle

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The Yankee Stadium MNRR has been a huge success. It has even led to something once unthinkable since the forgotten times at the old yankee stadium with the late 1980's last place teams. Some parking spots avaiable most game days.

 

And what about Yankee Stadium? MNRR spent tens of millions to bulid that station. I do agree that on the Hudson Line a couple of Bronx stops such as University Heights (no more than a mile to Marble Hill) Morris Heights (I know COTB 16 may disagree lol) should be served less frequently i.e every 2 hours off peak.

 

When I made that comment I had Morris Heights & University Heights in mind. I mean really... You're talking about two of the poorest neighborhoods in the country practically and it is a complete waste of money to have those stations there. Yankees Stadium is a whole different story and that station should be there for the obvious reasons. With the MetroNorth fares going up, you will see even fewer people use those stations. Meanwhile stations like Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil will continue to see ridership increase even as the fare goes up because those two stops serve affluent neighborhoods close to Westchester.

[Shortline Bus]

When I made that comment I had Morris Heights & University Heights in mind. I mean really... You're talking about two of the poorest neighborhoods in the country practically and it is a complete waste of money to have those stations there. Yankees Stadium is a whole different story and that station should be there for the obvious reasons. With the MetroNorth fares going up, you will see even fewer people use that station. Meanwhile stations like Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil will continue to see ridership increase even as the fare goes up because those two stops serve affluent neighborhoods close to Westchester.

 

 

Are you aware that those in University Heights and Morris Heights use it to go to work/college in Yonkers and Tarrytown? VG8 I know the Hudson line i been riding it for almost 6 years. You never been above Yonkers on that line. I said i agree maybe with limited service to say University Heights (since it's a mile from Riverdale.) While we at it. what about Glenwood St in Yonkers? That in a bad neighborhhod. VG8 you making comments on a line you only been riding semi regular for a year. That me making comments on the train i ride maybe once in while. While we at it why not close the Nostrand and East NY stations on LIRR? They also in poorer neighborhoods. Ditto for SE QUEENS stations. VG8 prefer no riff-riffs again.

 

PS in places like Yonkers, Peekskill, Beacon and Poughkeepsie there a high % of minorities and poorer whites who use it. This is not the Manhattan outerboro express bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Are you aware that those in University Heights and Morris Heights use it to go to work/college in Yonkers and Tarrytown? VG8 I know the Hudson line i been riding it for almost 6 years. You never been above Yonkers on that line. I said i agree maybe with limited service to say University Heights (since it's a mile from Riverdale.) While we at it. what about Glenwood St in Yonkers? That in a bad neighborhhod. VG8 you making comments on a line you only been riding semi regular for a year. That me making comments on the train i ride maybe once in while. While we at it why not close the Nostrand and East NY stations on LIRR? They also in poorer neighborhoods. Ditto for SE QUEENS stations. VG8 prefer no riff-riffs again.

 

PS in places like Yonkers, Peekskill, Beacon and Poughkeepsie there a high % of minorities and poorer whites who use it. This is not the Manhattan outerboro express bus.

 

Actually you're wrong because I'm up in Westchester and use MetroNorth far more than you think since I have clients up there. My point is those stops are like ghost towns and you know it. Monies should not be wasted at stations like that. South East Queens has little transportation alternatives so of course the LIRR should have some trains go there, but to have trains stopping in areas that A don't use the service in the city and B have alternatives is just ridiculous. Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil need MetroNorth because they have long commutes up there AND no subway AND they actually use their service and have much in common with Westchester in terms of their commutes, suburbaness, etc. Morris Heights and University Heights have other alternatives AND they don't even use their stops along the line and they're in the Bronx with subway lines.

[Shortline Bus]

Actually you're wrong because I'm up in Westchester and use MetroNorth far more than you think since I have clients up there. My point is those stops are like ghost towns and you know it. Monies should not be wasted at stations like that. South East Queens has little transportation alternatives so of course the LIRR should have some trains go there, but to have trains stopping in areas that A don't use the service in the city and B have alternatives is just ridiculous. Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil need MetroNorth because they have long commutes up there AND no subway AND they actually use their service and have much in common with Westchester in terms of their commutes, suburbaness, etc. Morris Heights and University Heights have other alternatives AND they don't even use their stops along the line and they're in the Bronx with subway lines.

 

 

I wrong. Lets see VG8. You did not know the Hudson Line ran to ducthess county when you first starting using it? Second i said a few riders does use University Heights and Morris Heights. That why the Poughkeepsie bound trains bypass the local stops and Local trains from Croton Harmon serve them.

 

Morris Heights is a couple of miles from a subway so you need to google a map VG8 before making a suggestion. I already agreed that less trains should stop there. However you probably seen it used say on weekends and other times during the day. Of course those 2 mentioned stations are not as busy as Marble Hill.

 

With that said, on the New Haven and Harlem lines they make 'limited service" stops to Melrose (south bronx) and Tremont running about every hour rush hours and about every 2 hours off peak. That what i suggested. And Vg8 those stops add no more than 4-5 minutes to trip. Believe what you want but i strongly disagree on ending all service to Morris Heights and University Heights. You not changing your mind so why continue this chat.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I wrong. Lets see VG8. You did not know the Hudson Line ran to ducthess county when you first starting using it? Second i said a few riders does use University Heights and Morris Heights. That why the Poughkeepsie bound trains bypass the local stops and Local trains from Croton Harmon serve them.

 

Morris Heights is a couple of miles from a subway so you need to google a map VG8 before making a suggestion. I already agreed that less trains should stop there. However you probably seen it used say on weekends and other times during the day. Of course those 2 mentioned stations are not as busy as Marble Hill.

 

With that said, on the New Haven and Harlem lines they make 'limited service" stops to Melrose (south bronx) and Tremont running about every hour rush hours and about every 2 hours off peak. That what i suggested. And Vg8 those stops add no more than 4-5 minutes to trip. Believe what you want but i strongly disagree on ending all service to Morris Heights and University Heights. You not changing your mind so why continue this chat.

 

lol... Yes a few literally... And if they really needed MetroNorth as much as you say they did they would have other options like express buses too like Marble Hill gets. They've got the for East Side access and the and for West Side access. A guy I know lives in Woodlawn and he says it only takes him a few minutes longer on the as opposed to taking MetroNorth and aside from that, University Heights and Morris Heights actually have local bus service that either stops near or serves those stations and they still have dismal use, so that right shows just how little they need those stations even though you claim students and all of that use the station (which BTW I've NEVER seen) . As for your comment about the Hudson Line, it wasn't that I didn't know. It was that I wasn't concerned about it since I don't travel that far up on MetroNorth. Just up to Westchester for the most part.

 

I'd be much more inclined to say that Morris Park needs MetroNorth before having trains stop at Morris Heights and University Heights and Morris Park has the BxM10 express bus.

[realizm]

Dang. There's only 24 hours in a day. I would love to attend one of these hearings in support however. OK back to troubleshooting this blasted !!@##& print server problem, *%^$ da*m it....

[B35 via Church]

Speaking up is not going to help... No offense to those who will speak up.

 

Reminds me of that scene in the movie barbershop #2, when Ice Cube spoke up against the redevelopment of the south side of chicago....

 

Although that was fiction, you see what happened w/ barclay's center.... I laughed when I heard that there were those folks that strongly opposed the atlantic yards project was out there (I forget what they call themselves) picketing when it first opened a couple weeks ago...

 

 

As it pertains to this topic though.... What magic combination of verbiage can I come up with to actually convince the MTA to abandon an eventual fare hike.... I'm not wasting my time trying to persuade a bunch of suits to consider the contrary to what they long already have their hearts/their guts (and spending time & resources playing poker in roundtable discussions or whatever) set out on....

 

I have this belief that the longer fare hikes are delayed, the larger the actual fare hike will end up being when it gets to that gun-to-your-head type of moment..... Where it's deemed that they have quote-unquote no choice.....

[User]

I forgot to say that I go to the public hearings, but I just watch and maybe record for YouTube. I know well that public opinion doesn't go well with money-related issues.

[checkmatechamp13]

The LIRR is very expensive. Why that is so I cannot answer. I was only talking about the costs to ride the LIRR within the city limits as compared to other forms of mass transit. For example, if it costs $8 from just outside the city limits to Penn Station, the cost to do the same from inside the city is only slightly less, like $6, more than the cost of an express bus. Just like our subways and buses, increased ridership will only lower operating costs if no additional trains need to be operated. I do not believe this is the case during the rush hours. However, I am pretty sure that in off-peak, say from 10 AM to 3PM. There are plenty of seats available. Those seats could be filled if several dollars were chopped off the fare, costing the LIRR nothing. The problem is that trains would have to make more stops and LIRR riders have always been against City residents using "their" trains because they don't want "those" people on their trains. So there has never been pressure on the MTA to lower the fares for intra-City travel, but pressure to keep them unfairly high.

 

If the fares were lowered during the off-peak, travel time would increase by three or four minutes for current LIRR riders, but the MTA could save much by not having to run some express buses all day long that carry only a handful of passengers. (Since the City subsidizes MTA Bus for its losses, there is no incentive for the MTA to make it more efficient which is why MTA bus cuts were so much less than NYCT cuts for express buses.) Also, during the rush hours when the LIRR is overcrowded, the conductor can't collect everyone's ticket, so adding extra trains wouldn't cost as much as projected.

 

 

 

Off-peak, a Zone 3-Zone 1 fare costs $6.25, which isn't too much higher than the express bus. It would be nice if it was $5.50, but it's not too bad.

 

I think the issue is more the fact that there are no free transfer allowed, so you're paying $6.25, which is alright if you're just going to the area around Penn Station or Atlantic Terminal or something, but if you have to transfer to the subway, then it becomes costly.

 

Like I said before, I think the monthly passes should work the same as NJT, where it's valid on all MTA modes. So for the LIRR Zone 3-Zone 1 passes, instead of $193, they could be say, $233 and be valid on the subways, local buses, and express buses. For the hell of it, you might as well throw in Metro-North for intra-city trips. And the express bus passes should also be valid on the commuter rails for intra-city travel. But maybe we'll just have to wait until we get SmartCards for that to happen.

 

I know they are thinking of adding stations to Metro-North in the Bronx. I don't know why they aren't considering this for Queens other than at Elmhurst.

 

 

They're only doing that on an entirely new line that they're building. For the existing rail lines, they're not adding stops because there really isn't a big gap between any of them.

 

I think the same applies to Queens. I mean, realistically what areas are really in dire need of a stop? I mean, maybe Linden Blvd on the Laurelton Branch and Farmers Blvd on the St. Albans Branch (mostly for reverse-peak riders), but that's about it.

 

And what about Yankee Stadium? MNRR spent tens of millions to bulid that station. I do agree that on the Hudson Line a couple of Bronx stops such as University Heights (no more than a mile to Marble Hill) Morris Heights (I know COTB 16 may disagree lol) should be served less frequently i.e every 2 hours off peak.

 

 

It's more like 1.5 miles and you have to factor in the hills in that area.

 

lol... Yes a few literally... And if they really needed MetroNorth as much as you say they did they would have other options like express buses too like Marble Hill gets. They've got the for East Side access and the and for West Side access. A guy I know lives in Woodlawn and he says it only takes him a few minutes longer on the as opposed to taking MetroNorth and aside from that, University Heights and Morris Heights actually have local bus service that either stops near or serves those stations and they still have dismal use, so that right shows just how little they need those stations even though you claim students and all of that use the station (which BTW I've NEVER seen) . As for your comment about the Hudson Line, it wasn't that I didn't know. It was that I wasn't concerned about it since I don't travel that far up on MetroNorth. Just up to Westchester for the most part.

 

 

What part of reverse-peak isn't clear? Tell me how you can get from University Heights to Peekskill without having to make a bunch of transfers (with infrequent routes). Those are the college students he's referring to. Yeah, for service to Midtown, they have a bunch of options, but not for service to Westchester, Putnam, and Dutchess.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What part of reverse-peak isn't clear? Tell me how you can get from University Heights to Peekskill without having to make a bunch of transfers (with infrequent routes). Those are the college students he's referring to. Yeah, for service to Midtown, they have a bunch of options, but not for service to Westchester, Putnam, and Dutchess.

 

Whatever kind of peak you want to call it I NEVER see anyone at that University Heights station or the Morris Heights station, so what part of no passengers isn't clear to you? What's even funnier is having two local buses serve one of the stations and I still never see anyone getting on there in either direction.