qjtransitmaster Posted November 24, 2012 Share #51 Posted November 24, 2012 No, CSX ownes the line between the bridge over the Montauk and the Junction with the NEC. It got it when it and NS split Conrail. I go past it all the time, and all the signs say owner: CSX. Interesting then reactivating LIRR bay ridge is more practical or buying that ROW from CSX to create the new line. How frequent are CSX trains there? I am interested tell me more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted November 24, 2012 Share #52 Posted November 24, 2012 Yup. Amtrak owns the Hell Gate Bridge, the tracks leading to the Hell Gate Bridge, and the tracks in the Bronx. The section north of the Canarsie Line is owned by CSX. This section runs from that part of the Canarsie Line to the tracks that approach the Hell Gate Bridge. Although Censin you may think you can just force them out it won't work like that. It is part of the more important Northeast Corridor. You can't tell Amtrak passengers going from Washington DC to Boston to get lost. It doesn't work like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted November 24, 2012 Share #53 Posted November 24, 2012 Interesting then reactivating LIRR bay ridge is more practical or buying that ROW from CSX to create the new line. How frequent are CSX trains there? I am interested tell me more. They are pretty frequent since they have yard north of the Canarsie Line. They carry freight through the Northeast since it links to the Northeast Corridor. It makes it nearly impossible. However the part south of the Canarsie Line is still owned by the as part of the LIRR. If the wanted to they could rebuild the Canarsie connection like I said and make a new service that would run on the line once they are done rebuilding the line from East New York to 59th Street. This section is usable and could support four tracks if the ROW is cleared of all trees and dirt leaving a pure open cut like on the Sea Beach Line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted November 24, 2012 Share #54 Posted November 24, 2012 Yup.... It basically comes down to paperwork but also WILL.... Unfortunately, it seems that there needs to be a Robert Moses type figure given power to do some of these things. For the life of me, I cannot understand how the Old LIRR Bay Ridge and the Rockaway Branches are inactive (to passengers)... I mean, the right of way is there--the need is there. Yet they both are inactive--I just don't get it. Yes, I know about the politics and NIMBYs--but still. It's frustrating. The last thing we need is another Robert Moses. That guy was the single greatest impediment to rapid transit growth in the regions history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 24, 2012 Share #55 Posted November 24, 2012 The last thing we need is another Robert Moses. That guy was the single greatest impediment to rapid transit growth in the regions history! I think he was asking for a big ANTI- Moses !!!! MWAHAHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted November 24, 2012 Share #56 Posted November 24, 2012 No, the is packed as hell pretty much all the time except for 1AM-5AM. If nessecary, you could install a new switch and have the trains be able to terminate on the 6th Ave layup track, so that 8th Ave won't be over capacity. First of all, I said capacity is an issue, so you can't increase service too much anyway. Second of all, if trains are so crowded, then add more trains from Canarsie. Tell me who in their right mind (other than a railfan, though even some of them might not be in their right mind) is going to take a train from Bay Ridge to Manhattan that goes all the way out to Brownsville/East NY before going back towards Manhattan when they could just take a direct route like the or or whatever? If you're running it out to Bay Ridge, that means you already have potential for delays, since it's almost 9 miles from the starting point to reach that junction with the . You'll basically be replicating every single problem on the Lexington Avenue Line. Now, the is crowded and the trains are closely spaced (which leaves little room for error), but at least the mainline doesn't have to deal with merging issues (you have the merge in The Bronx & Brooklyn). But now you'll have them come all the way from Bay Ridge, which already makes them delay-prone, and then merge it with a crowded line like the ? And then going back out, you'll have intra-borough riders having to deal with the delays on the Canarsie Line. Somebody who wants to go from Brownsville to Bay Ridge has to deal with delays over by Union Square. If/when the line becomes part of the Triboro RX, there should definitely not be any merges with the . They should build an upper level or something at stations where it intersects with the , but they should be seperate lines. Somebody in Bensonhurst doesn't need to deal with problems in Williamsburg, and vice versa, especially when the people in Bensonhurst aren't going to take that route to access Manhattan, and so the merge with the is pointless. If we were talking about a little branch to Flatlands, then maybe, I could see a split service pattern working out, because there's less potential for delays, but not when you're going out to Bay Ridge, for the two reasons I stated above: 1) The long route out to Bay Ridge, combined with the merging required will cause delays 2) Even if you could ensure that trains remain on time 100% of the time (no door holding and the trains are basically driven by robots), nobody out in Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, etc is going to use that route to reach Manhattan anyway, so there's no point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 24, 2012 Share #57 Posted November 24, 2012 First of all, I said capacity is an issue, so you can't increase service too much anyway. Second of all, if trains are so crowded, then add more trains from Canarsie. Tell me who in their right mind (other than a railfan, though even some of them might not be in their right mind) is going to take a train from Bay Ridge to Manhattan that goes all the way out to Brownsville/East NY before going back towards Manhattan when they could just take a direct route like the or or whatever? If you're running it out to Bay Ridge, that means you already have potential for delays, since it's almost 9 miles from the starting point to reach that junction with the . You'll basically be replicating every single problem on the Lexington Avenue Line. Now, the is crowded and the trains are closely spaced (which leaves little room for error), but at least the mainline doesn't have to deal with merging issues (you have the merge in The Bronx & Brooklyn). But now you'll have them come all the way from Bay Ridge, which already makes them delay-prone, and then merge it with a crowded line like the ? And then going back out, you'll have intra-borough riders having to deal with the delays on the Canarsie Line. Somebody who wants to go from Brownsville to Bay Ridge has to deal with delays over by Union Square. If/when the line becomes part of the Triboro RX, there should definitely not be any merges with the . They should build an upper level or something at stations where it intersects with the , but they should be seperate lines. Somebody in Bensonhurst doesn't need to deal with problems in Williamsburg, and vice versa, especially when the people in Bensonhurst aren't going to take that route to access Manhattan, and so the merge with the is pointless. If we were talking about a little branch to Flatlands, then maybe, I could see a split service pattern working out, because there's less potential for delays, but not when you're going out to Bay Ridge, for the two reasons I stated above: 1) The long route out to Bay Ridge, combined with the merging required will cause delays 2) Even if you could ensure that trains remain on time 100% of the time (no door holding and the trains are basically driven by robots), nobody out in Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, etc is going to use that route to reach Manhattan anyway, so there's no point. err NONE!!! I think this dumb idea was played down already you are kinda late buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 24, 2012 Share #58 Posted November 24, 2012 Yup. Amtrak owns the Hell Gate Bridge, the tracks leading to the Hell Gate Bridge, and the tracks in the Bronx. The section north of the Canarsie Line is owned by CSX. This section runs from that part of the Canarsie Line to the tracks that approach the Hell Gate Bridge. Although Censin you may think you can just force them out it won't work like that. It is part of the more important Northeast Corridor. You can't tell Amtrak passengers going from Washington DC to Boston to get lost. It doesn't work like that. No, north part (also known as CSX Fremont Secondary) is actually owned by Oak Point Yard, not CSX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 24, 2012 Share #59 Posted November 24, 2012 huh? There is space for 4 -6 tracks. Yes, *space*. But there is currently not many points on the line where there is more than 1 track. Some points have 2-4 tracks but a lot is single tracked. If you don't believe me, go and take a look in Boro Park where you can see for yourself how long the single track distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted November 24, 2012 Share #60 Posted November 24, 2012 Yup. Amtrak owns the Hell Gate Bridge, the tracks leading to the Hell Gate Bridge, and the tracks in the Bronx. The section north of the Canarsie Line is owned by CSX. This section runs from that part of the Canarsie Line to the tracks that approach the Hell Gate Bridge. Although Censin you may think you can just force them out it won't work like that. It is part of the more important Northeast Corridor. You can't tell Amtrak passengers going from Washington DC to Boston to get lost. It doesn't work like that. "Forcing" is one option. How about "incentives?" Interesting find: http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5991&p=394059&viewfull=1#post394059 It would seem that the bridge used by Amtrak and CSX is actually designed for 6 tracks with 2 trackways only being provisions (currently blocked off by structures). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted November 24, 2012 Share #61 Posted November 24, 2012 The last thing we need is another Robert Moses. That guy was the single greatest impediment to rapid transit growth in the regions history! A Robert Moses in mass transit not for cars. If there were ever one he would build the rail system like crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted November 24, 2012 Share #62 Posted November 24, 2012 No, the is packed as hell pretty much all the time except for 1AM-5AM. If nessecary, you could install a new switch and have the trains be able to terminate on the 6th Ave layup track, so that 8th Ave won't be over capacity. That's what you think... Nope it's all owned by LIRR actually CSX is simply allowed to run there. So It is better to leave the alone and reactivate Bay ridge branch as it's own railway line but to avoid impeding on amtrak truncate it at jackson heights. Create an SI tunnel for maximum impact let SIR extend into brooklyn then run on bay ridge branch until jackson heights. If money can be added then extension to LGA. If the airlines can pay for it. NO!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted November 24, 2012 Share #63 Posted November 24, 2012 The service is fine as it is. I don't see the adding a branch to this line unless there's demands for it or if population is growing hugely which causes crowding on other subway or bus corridors...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDTA Posted November 24, 2012 Share #64 Posted November 24, 2012 That's what you think... Whenever I stay in the city I stay on the , so I doubt my observation is incorrect, but I could be wrong. NO!!!!! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted November 24, 2012 Share #65 Posted November 24, 2012 Checkmatechamp is actually right. From Google Maps the distance from Livonia Avenue to 59th Street is exactly 9 miles. Actually I am wondering if it is possible still to create a Canarsie Line-Bay Ridge Branch service alone. A new line not the and have it use this route. I know the switching would still create problems, but I think there might be a solution if the service is split 50/50 between the new line and the . Of course the people in the Canarsie area will get less train service, but it's only 3 stations so it isn't that bad of a reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted November 24, 2012 Share #66 Posted November 24, 2012 Whenever I stay in the city I stay on the , so I doubt my observation is incorrect, but I could be wrong. I rely on it late at nights to get home from work. Its not super crowded but it you would see people standing sometimes. During the weekends when people come to/from the clubs on the city its pretty crowded with a full load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 24, 2012 Share #67 Posted November 24, 2012 @RollOverMyHead: Flatlands does want the service. @Roadcruiser: Yes that and the first 2 Canarsie stations are only a few blocks away from the ones that will be built at the Bay Ridge branch so not that far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 25, 2012 Share #68 Posted November 25, 2012 That's what you think... NO!!!!! Do you say " NO!!!!!!!!!!" to EVERYTHING I SAY? Not very mature now state your argument as to why and limits other than $$$$ that impends this. An actual argument like an adult instead of this childish " NO!!!!!!" Not the most mature way to state it outright immature to be honest and won't be taken seriously. Checkmatechamp is actually right. From Google Maps the distance from Livonia Avenue to 59th Street is exactly 9 miles. Actually I am wondering if it is possible still to create a Canarsie Line-Bay Ridge Branch service alone. A new line not the and have it use this route. I know the switching would still create problems, but I think there might be a solution if the service is split 50/50 between the new line and the . Of course the people in the Canarsie area will get less train service, but it's only 3 stations so it isn't that bad of a reduction. ERR I honestly am not sure on this implementation to be honest. @RollOverMyHead: Flatlands does want the service. @Roadcruiser: Yes that and the first 2 Canarsie stations are only a few blocks away from the ones that will be built at the Bay Ridge branch so not that far off. True but wouldn't the line need to be turned into subway specs how much would that cost vs just electrifying the line and using LIRR or SIR rail spec cars on the so called branch. I rely on it late at nights to get home from work. Its not super crowded but it you would see people standing sometimes. During the weekends when people come to/from the clubs on the city its pretty crowded with a full load You are right in THIS REGARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttcsubwayfan Posted November 25, 2012 Share #69 Posted November 25, 2012 Do you say " NO!!!!!!!!!!" to EVERYTHING I SAY? Not very mature now state your argument as to why and limits other than $$$$ that impends this. An actual argument like an adult instead of this childish " NO!!!!!!" Not the most mature way to state it outright immature to be honest and won't be taken seriously. Do you really need him to break down why the idea won't work? Sometimes, being eloquent just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted November 25, 2012 Share #70 Posted November 25, 2012 Do you really need him to break down why the idea won't work? Sometimes, being eloquent just doesn't work. I just prefer more mature responses than just NO!!!!! I don't feel like arguing like a pathetic child drop it please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted November 25, 2012 Share #71 Posted November 25, 2012 Do you really need him to break down why the idea won't work? Sometimes, being eloquent just doesn't work. Wait for it... I just prefer more mature responses than just NO!!!!! I don't feel like arguing like a pathetic child drop it please. Ok fine, I'll "be mature"... Other than the tremendous cost of building such a line, lets look at it like this... 1. who would actually benefit from a line from Staten Island all the way to Jackson Heights? Its like you threw a dart at two random stops on a map and decided to run with that. 2. Even if such a line was built, do you know how long said line would be? You're going through Staten Island, through Brooklyn, then halfway through Queens. I mean im no expert at subway travel times but it seems like said line would take almost 2 hours. 3. The biggest obstacle you would face is traversing New York Bay. That's pretty much a mile right there at least (given the VZ bridge is a little more than a mile long). And don't even bring up "hurr durr lets run the train over the bridge." We all know that's gonna be impossible given the current grade of the approaches. 3a. The cost of a whole new bridge would be through the roof...and a tunnel price isn't that far behind. So there you go. Was that mature enough for you or should I break out a dictionary and throw some big words in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 25, 2012 Share #72 Posted November 25, 2012 @Fresh Pond: Quit that Triboro RX, we're only talking Bay Ridge here which goes through Flatlands. Triboro is a good idea but that won't see the light for another 30 years or so. Now Bay Ridge, the line this topic is about, could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted November 25, 2012 Share #73 Posted November 25, 2012 I wasn't talking about the Triboro RX, I was referring to this... ...Create an SI tunnel for maximum impact let SIR extend into brooklyn then run on bay ridge branch until jackson heights. If money can be added then extension to LGA. If the airlines can pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 25, 2012 Share #74 Posted November 25, 2012 Doesn't matter. Let's stop that now and talk about Bay Ridge again. Not SI. Not Triboro. Just Bay Ridge as it is and a possible realistic connection (e.g. to the or the Sea Beach). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted November 25, 2012 Share #75 Posted November 25, 2012 No, north part (also known as CSX Fremont Secondary) is actually owned by Oak Point Yard, not CSX. how can a yard own something...? and CSX owns Oak Point, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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