CenSin Posted December 14, 2012 Share #51 Posted December 14, 2012 This whole thread is giving me a MAJOR headache so I haven't read every word, but some of you "know-it-all" foamers have really need to get your heads on straight. Everything here is done for a reason, and most of it won't make sense to you until you actually work here. So quit coming up with all these lame-ass ideas that would never fly in the real world and go back to chasing down R142As where they don't belong. Moderators, is there any chance this forum can add a Fantasy Ideas section, so that those of us who don't want to weave through this crap can avoid it and those who do can try to top each other to their content? What's the fantasy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 14, 2012 Share #52 Posted December 14, 2012 What's the fantasy? Im sure you have been reading threads here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 14, 2012 Share #53 Posted December 14, 2012 Again, ATO (and CBTC) can work. I dont think us RTO folks are saying it cant , whats lost here is some posters cant grasp the fact that this trash we have here in NYCT CAN work as designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted December 14, 2012 Share #54 Posted December 14, 2012 Doesn't San Francisco's BART system don't have any motorman's in it as well? I'm sure by the time our CBTC is on the same level of BART's then, motormen's would probably be out of the picture. People will never feel safe without a human on board to be there is something goes wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drag0nflamez Posted December 14, 2012 Share #55 Posted December 14, 2012 People will never feel safe without a human on board to be there is something goes wrong. Say those commuting on Paris's line 14 and soon line 1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minato ku Posted December 14, 2012 Share #56 Posted December 14, 2012 Not soon but now. The large majority of the trains are now driverless on line 1 and all the trains running on the line will be driverless by December 31. The service is completly driverless in off peak and there are only few manual trains still running in rush hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 15, 2012 Share #57 Posted December 15, 2012 Say those commuting on Paris's line 14 and soon line 1... Again why even bother to compare other systems in other countries makes no sense... Either people haven't read the whole thread or they just are blind to how things work Here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted December 15, 2012 Share #58 Posted December 15, 2012 Again why even bother to compare other systems in other countries makes no sense... Either people haven't read the whole thread or they just are blind to how things work Here... I've read the thread. There's just nothing convincing me that it can't be done. Of course, some people are in different positions; most arguing for it don't have their jobs to lose if this is implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 15, 2012 Share #59 Posted December 15, 2012 I've read the thread. There's just nothing convincing me that it can't be done. Of course, some people are in different positions; most arguing for it don't have their jobs to lose if this is implemented. Thats where you arent getting it... They havent even gotten CBTC right Yet heck or ATO they been at this since 1998... Im sorry what year is this again? Also that word "accountable" you just seem to ignore so how did you read the thread again? I stand by my Arm Chair RTO statement.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted December 15, 2012 Share #60 Posted December 15, 2012 They havent even gotten CBTC right Yet heck or ATO they been at this since 1998... A system that runs around the clock won't get things done fast. Also that word "accountable" you just seem to ignore so how did you read the thread again? Where's the accountability problem? The lack of staff ON the train? I've addressed this already: though there's nobody on the train, someone has to be in charge of some aspect of operating or maintaining the system. It's not a foreign concept as it has been done is is being done all the time in plenty of places. "New York City's subway is different" is just an excuse. For the record… I don't advocate removing all MTA employees from trains. Someone has to be there to assist during an emergency, but 2 is just wasteful, and depending on the motorman to be the primary driver forces the MTA to play it safe by slowing things down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 15, 2012 Share #61 Posted December 15, 2012 A system that runs around the clock won't get things done fast. Where's the accountability problem? The lack of staff ON the train? I've addressed this already: though there's nobody on the train, someone has to be in charge of some aspect of operating or maintaining the system. It's not a foreign concept as it has been done is is being done all the time in plenty of places. "New York City's subway is different" is just an excuse. For the record… I don't advocate removing all MTA employees from trains. Someone has to be there to assist during an emergency, but 2 is just wasteful, and depending on the motorman to be the primary driver forces the MTA to play it safe by slowing things down. Oh now its a system that runs around the Clock? Thats why if it does happen wont get done fast ,quick or speedy in yours or my lifetime. You keep right on thinking the MTA will hold somebody in some office accountable if thats the case The Ones who Ok'd this flawed system in the 1st place should have been called to the Mat wasting lord knows how much money...... S**t runs downhill in this agency that is a fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted December 15, 2012 Share #62 Posted December 15, 2012 Thats why if it does happen wont get done fast ,quick or speedy in yours or my lifetime. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 15, 2012 Share #63 Posted December 15, 2012 That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Have i said it shouldn't? What the discussion entails is How can it work and Will it Work? Just because somebody on the outside says it works in other places don't mean it can work here, i have said that a few times in this thread. As of Now how things are here that's Very Doubtful very... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princelex Posted December 15, 2012 Share #64 Posted December 15, 2012 This thread makes me shake my head. ATO won't work here in the NYC Subway today. CBTC barely works on the so how the hell will it work anywhere else? Well we will see how the will do, but I don't have much faith in it at all. With what I understand of ATO, one person would man the train, the T/O. That is disaster waiting to happen. If there is a fire in the tunnel and the train goes right into it and the train is PACKED, it's going to be a total nightmare for that T/O to have to do that work by him/herself and the evacuation will be slow as shit and not to mention, people may get hurt out of something like this. This is not a town where a train can just have one transit worker on the train, it won't work here. The T/O's have so much to do ALREADY and you add C/R duties to that. Hell no. Yes we need to have trains move faster than they do and having a automatic kind of subway system wouldn't be a bad thing but you need to have a T/O AND a C/R to make a system like this work and work efficiently. Some of you need to keep your fantasies to yourselves, for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 15, 2012 Share #65 Posted December 15, 2012 This thread makes me shake my head. ATO won't work here in the NYC Subway today. CBTC barely works on the so how the hell will it work anywhere else? Well we will see how the will do, but I don't have much faith in it at all. With what I understand of ATO, one person would man the train, the T/O. That is disaster waiting to happen. If there is a fire in the tunnel and the train goes right into it and the train is PACKED, it's going to be a total nightmare for that T/O to have to do that work by him/herself and the evacuation will be slow as shit and not to mention, people may get hurt out of something like this. This is not a town where a train can just have one transit worker on the train, it won't work here. The T/O's have so much to do ALREADY and you add C/R duties to that. Hell no. Yes we need to have trains move faster than they do and having a automatic kind of subway system wouldn't be a bad thing but you need to have a T/O AND a C/R to make a system like this work and work efficiently. Some of you need to keep your fantasies to yourselves, for real. It it works in Paris though.. When they get this Chit right then they can move on to other stuff... As i said it will be in nobody's lifetime i think in this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJC Posted December 16, 2012 Share #66 Posted December 16, 2012 Lmao D!!!! CBTC is interesting, but after seeing that collision n the photos of it from the 2009 incident down in DC I really wouldn't want it here. This system is just too large in my opinion but who am I??? WMATA doesn't have CBTC. Again why even bother to compare other systems in other countries makes no sense... No two systems in the world are identical, but any competent transit agency looks around the world at what has and hasn't worked elsewhere to find ways to improve their own system. This thread makes me shake my head. ATO won't work here in the NYC Subway today. CBTC barely works on the so how the hell will it work anywhere else? Well we will see how the will do, but I don't have much faith in it at all. How does CBTC "barely" work? It took a while to get it up and running, but the L has been running 100% CBTC for over a year. Why wouldn't it work anywhere else? With what I understand of ATO, one person would man the train, the T/O. That's OPTO (One Person Train Operation). NYCT is one of the few urban transit systems on the planet to still have conductors - virtually all others have shifted to OPTO, including systems older and more crowded than ours. ATO means that the signal system directs the train when and how fast to go, with minimal human intervention. Systems running in ATO can have any number of employees on board, from zero (called ZPTO, currently in use on many new systems and a small number of old ones) on up. The L runs mostly in ATO, with two crew members on board. That is disaster waiting to happen. If there is a fire in the tunnel and the train goes right into it and the train is PACKED, it's going to be a total nightmare for that T/O to have to do that work by him/herself and the evacuation will be slow as shit and not to mention, people may get hurt out of something like this. This is not a town where a train can just have one transit worker on the train, it won't work here. The T/O's have so much to do ALREADY and you add C/R duties to that. Hell no. Yes we need to have trains move faster than they do and having a automatic kind of subway system wouldn't be a bad thing but you need to have a T/O AND a C/R to make a system like this work and work efficiently. Yet somehow it works fine in London and Paris. Maybe it's magic. The union certainly claims that OPTO is unsafe, but I'm not aware of any safety organization that agrees. The union has a conflict of interest. I will take my safety advice from those whose primary goal is to promote safety, not from those whose primary goal is to maximize the number of transit workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 16, 2012 Share #67 Posted December 16, 2012 No two systems in the world are identical, but any competent transit agency looks around the world at what has and hasn't worked elsewhere to find ways to improve their own system. Well they cant "seem" to find a way to get it to work right here i guess these folks who sign my check arent competent oh well. How does CBTC "barely" work? It took a while to get it up and running, but the L has been running 100% CBTC for over a year. Why wouldn't it work anywhere else? You dont work down here you have No idea what problems they have(Im not saying its barely working now) ill let you guess, they are having problems. Yet somehow it works fine in London and Paris. Maybe it's magic. There you go with that London and Paris stuff again good for them we arent talking about them yet some of you folks still keep bringing it up. I will take my safety advice from those whose primary goal is to promote safety, not from those whose primary goal is to maximize the number of transit workers. Yep with so many curved stations down here it will be easy to do it.. There are issues here right now i wont even bother to get into them the Union and Mgmt is aware and steps are being taking to correct them so lets work those issues out 1st.... Too add to this im all for new technology that improves our Job and makes it safer for customers whom i move when im working, not this half arsed crap they ok'd and put in with no one here to be held accountable for the Millions wasted. Im from the "Do it right the 1st time School" the technology was out there for it to be done... Im not even thinking about "losing my job" to some Computer,last thing on my mind. Now to throw a monkey wrench... Its as PER Contract Andy old Boy and until the MTA and the Union work out a SAFE and cost efficient way of having OPTO in larger aspects its going to stay that way sorry to disappoint you... They tired it on the Larry Line a few years back it blew up in their face... I Stand By my Arm Chair RTO statement.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princelex Posted December 16, 2012 Share #68 Posted December 16, 2012 WMATA doesn't have CBTC. No two systems in the world are identical, but any competent transit agency looks around the world at what has and hasn't worked elsewhere to find ways to improve their own system. How does CBTC "barely" work? It took a while to get it up and running, but the L has been running 100% CBTC for over a year. Why wouldn't it work anywhere else? Where the is concerned, the line is 90-95% outside. The R188, most of them will formerly be known as R142A's, are known to slip and slide when they are outside on a rainy day. I can see train operators having a "fun" time dealing with it when that happens. Plus, when there is a problem on the , HUGE portions of that line is shut down. If that happens of the , God help everyone lol. It's is a system that is still very flawed and hopefully the bugs from the will be worked out on the but again, I will have to see it to believe it. That's OPTO (One Person Train Operation). NYCT is one of the few urban transit systems on the planet to still have conductors - virtually all others have shifted to OPTO, including systems older and more crowded than ours. ATO means that the signal system directs the train when and how fast to go, with minimal human intervention. Systems running in ATO can have any number of employees on board, from zero (called ZPTO, currently in use on many new systems and a small number of old ones) on up. The L runs mostly in ATO, with two crew members on board. Yet somehow it works fine in London and Paris. Maybe it's magic. The union certainly claims that OPTO is unsafe, but I'm not aware of any safety organization that agrees. The union has a conflict of interest. I will take my safety advice from those whose primary goal is to promote safety, not from those whose primary goal is to maximize the number of transit workers. Thank you for clearing up the ATO and CBTC stuff for me. Like RTOMan, I'm also for advancement for technology and safety but if it comes at a cost for workers, who help make the place safer, then I'm dead set against it and why anyone would be for it is beyond me. People LOVE to bring up Paris and London. Of course the "apples and oranges" term is going to go come into play in terms of comparing it to here and being all over their system but one thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the politics of NYC. Even if all of this stuff was approved by the , there would be so many groups wanting to weigh in like the union or a community board. There could even be public hearings, so getting that kind of thing implemented here would take forever and a day. And since the topic of safety has been brought up, I want to bring up one word that I don't think has been discussed on here: Terrorism. WIth a city like NYC that is the #1 target for terrorism, why the hell would anyone not want as more employees down there? What if, God forbid, a terrorist attack happens down there and YOU happened be down there when it happened? Wouldn't you want as much help as you could get from the let alone the NYPD and any other city group that can help? It all comes back to that word, accountability. It's so amazing to see how easy it is to dismiss a job like Conductor but when your ass is in need of help, who do you run to first? Mmmm hmmm SMH. With the shit I see posted on here, I hope a lot of you never come down here to work for the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 16, 2012 Share #69 Posted December 16, 2012 I think the wont have those problems. I spoke to one of the guys from Siemens doing it he said "They learned their lessons" From that Garbage on the Line. The Main thing they did was to Upgrade the Signals and Keep them there, not remove them(which was a mistake in a half). So when CBTC takes a Dump they will still be able to go to AWSP (Auxiliary Wayside Protection).and keep the trains moving. No "Stop and Stay" From Queensboro Plaza to 74th Street due to CBTC failure. As for that Slip Slide Chit they im hoping the "Newer" R188's (Not that Converted R142A trash) will not have that issue. The R160's don't seem to have that Problem like those R142's and R143's(Trailer trucks on the A Div Tech trains What a joke that was). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJC Posted December 16, 2012 Share #70 Posted December 16, 2012 Well they cant "seem" to find a way to get it to work right here i guess these folks who sign my check arent competent oh well. There must be two different Canarsie lines, then. The one I know of had all of its wayside automatic signals north of Broadway Junction removed about a year ago. CBTC is now the signal system on the Canarsie line. If trains are operating at anything close to normal speeds and normal headways, they are operating under CBTC. There you go with that London and Paris stuff again good for them we arent talking about them yet some of you folks still keep bringing it up. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that nothing that happens elsewhere could possibly be relevant here in New York, be my guest and remain ignorant. The fact is, however, that transit agencies do learn from each other. That doesn't mean they simply copycat what's done elsewhere, but it does mean that they look at what's done elsewhere, see how well it works, and see if similar techniques can be applied back at home. London and Paris are not peculiar in having OPTO - on the contrary, New York is peculiar in not having OPTO. Yep with so many curved stations down here it will be easy to do it.. Curved stations like Bastille and Waterloo and Bank? http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/ http://www.artofthes...ube-station.htm http://sk.wikipedia....05-12-10_02.jpg Its as PER Contract Andy old Boy and until the MTA and the Union work out a SAFE and cost efficient way of having OPTO in larger aspects its going to stay that way sorry to disappoint you... They tired it on the Larry Line a few years back it blew up in their face... If OPTO is so fundamentally unsafe, then why have no safety agencies or organizations spoken out against it? If OPTO is so fundamentally unsafe, how many lives have been lost due to OPTO elsewhere in the world? The fact is that OPTO is not unsafe, and that the union's only incentive for opposing OPTO is that OPTO will, over time, reduce the number of dues-paying union members. Where the is concerned, the line is 90-95% outside. The R188, most of them will formerly be known as R142A's, are known to slip and slide when they are outside on a rainy day. I can see train operators having a "fun" time dealing with it when that happens. Closer to 75%, and the R142's and R142A's cover more outdoor distance on the Pelham, White Plains, Dyre, Jerome, and New Lots lines combined - and that's not even counting the similar R143's and R160's. If there is a safety flaw on the R142A's, then they should be removed from service immediately. If not, then you're just blowing hot air. Plus, when there is a problem on the , HUGE portions of that line is shut down. That's always been the case. It's a two-track line. Thank you for clearing up the ATO and CBTC stuff for me. Like RTOMan, I'm also for advancement for technology and safety but if it comes at a cost for workers, who help make the place safer, then I'm dead set against it and why anyone would be for it is beyond me. But ATO and CBTC don't come at a cost for workers, and they improve safety, capacity, and speed. People LOVE to bring up Paris and London. Of course the "apples and oranges" term is going to go come into play in terms of comparing it to here and being all over their system but one thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the politics of NYC. Even if all of this stuff was approved by the , there would be so many groups wanting to weigh in like the union or a community board. There could even be public hearings, so getting that kind of thing implemented here would take forever and a day. And since the topic of safety has been brought up, I want to bring up one word that I don't think has been discussed on here: Terrorism. WIth a city like NYC that is the #1 target for terrorism, why the hell would anyone not want as more employees down there? What if, God forbid, a terrorist attack happens down there and YOU happened be down there when it happened? Wouldn't you want as much help as you could get from the let alone the NYPD and any other city group that can help? It all comes back to that word, accountability. It's so amazing to see how easy it is to dismiss a job like Conductor but when your ass is in need of help, who do you run to first? Mmmm hmmm SMH. With the shit I see posted on here, I hope a lot of you never come down here to work for the . Pardon me? London is no stranger to terrorist attacks on its transit system, most recently in 2005: http://en.wikipedia....don_Underground Did OPTO in any way contribute to the destruction in 2005? Would conductors have somehow saved lives? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 16, 2012 Share #71 Posted December 16, 2012 There must be two different Canarsie lines, then. The one I know of had all of its wayside automatic signals north of Broadway Junction removed about a year ago. CBTC is now the signal system on the Canarsie line. If trains are operating at anything close to normal speeds and normal headways, they are operating under CBTC. Check yer sarcasm Meter thanks. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that nothing that happens elsewhere could possibly be relevant here in New York, be my guest and remain ignorant. I could care less what happens in other places its not that im not aware what goes on but thanks ill keep that in Mind. The fact is, however, that transit agencies do learn from each other. That doesn't mean they simply copycat what's done elsewhere, but it does mean that they look at what's done elsewhere, see how well it works, and see if similar techniques can be applied back at home. You arent paying attention im not disputing that... Curved stations like Bastille and Waterloo and Bank? Awesome good for them Thats two stations, heres a few for you Essex Street, Broadway Laffayette, Every station on the Concoruse Line from Fordham Road to 167th Street(Look at the subway Map). Astor Place Bleecker Street Spring On the 6 line thats just a few if i tried can find more. If OPTO is so fundamentally unsafe, then why have no safety agencies or organizations spoken out against it? If OPTO is so fundamentally unsafe, how many lives have been lost due to OPTO elsewhere in the world? The fact is that OPTO is not unsafe, and that the union's only incentive for opposing OPTO is that OPTO will, over time, reduce the number of dues-paying union members. You arent Paying attention let me tell you this again IF they Find a way to make this work(Which i have said here but yer ears and eyes are closed to this) Im all for it Until then im sorry i hope you dont lose sleep over these facts.. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 16, 2012 Share #72 Posted December 16, 2012 That's always been the case. It's a two-track line. No it hasn't they was able to turn trains at Myrtle Wkycoff Bedford Ave etc... If CBTC Fails they can not do this due to No Signals from Broadway Junction to The 1st Interlocking after which is Myrtle Wkycoff... Which has Happened quiet a few times.... Opps.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 16, 2012 Share #73 Posted December 16, 2012 Did OPTO in any way contribute to the destruction in 2005? Would conductors have somehow saved lives? No. After the fact? You dont even know that.... Are you from England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted December 16, 2012 Share #74 Posted December 16, 2012 If there is a safety flaw on the R142A's, then they should be removed from service immediately. If not, then you're just blowing hot air. Slip Slide is a defect that is only corrected By Guess Who the T/O! We operate Slower so the train wont slide out out of the station BTW ATO is "Off" when its raining and a "Wet Rail Condition" Goes into effect with CBTC when it rains on the L line... You are Welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJC Posted December 17, 2012 Share #75 Posted December 17, 2012 Awesome good for them Thats two stations, heres a few for you Essex Street, Broadway Laffayette, Every station on the Concoruse Line from Fordham Road to 167th Street(Look at the subway Map). Astor Place Bleecker Street Spring On the 6 line thats just a few if i tried can find more. Paris and London have many curved stations. (Haven't you heard London's famous "Mind the Gap"?) I just mentioned three well known examples. The systems in Paris and London both predate ours and run more frequent service with comparable if not heavier crowding. To dismiss them as irrelevant is plainly ignorant. No, they're not identical, but there's a lot we could learn from them. You arent Paying attention let me tell you this again IF they Find a way to make this work(Which i have said here but yer ears and eyes are closed to this) Im all for it Until then im sorry i hope you dont lose sleep over these facts.. And there's no reason that it wouldn't work. No it hasn't they was able to turn trains at Myrtle Wkycoff Bedford Ave etc... If CBTC Fails they can not do this due to No Signals from Broadway Junction to The 1st Interlocking after which is Myrtle Wkycoff... Which has Happened quiet a few times.... Red herring. How many times has the entire CBTC system gone down within the past year? After the fact? You dont even know that.... Are you from England? http://en.wikipedia....London_bombings Read through that description of what happened. How would things have turned out differently if there had been conductors on the trains? In the followup investigation, did anybody suggest that, with conductors on the trains, the terrorists would not have been able to carry out their bombings? I'm from New York, but I've traveled abroad. Is that supposed to be some sort of badge of shame? Slip Slide is a defect that is only corrected By Guess Who the T/O! We operate Slower so the train wont slide out out of the station BTW ATO is "Off" when its raining and a "Wet Rail Condition" Goes into effect with CBTC when it rains on the L line... Great! So it isn't a problem after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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