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A park — instead of rail — inches forward in Queens


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I don't get how this is practical. Sorry for standing up for common sense.

 

PLEASE READ EVERYTHING BELOW BEFORE BASHING!!!!

 

 

 

To be honest I will break it down how practical it can be most of it's ROW is isolated all to itself. There is also a lightly used or abandoned set of track that connects amtrak with the hudson line. So it will use the electrification spec that it will share tracks with the most which is hell's gate electrified with catenary wire. There is trackage from bay ridge branch to jackson heights which links to hell's gate so the line can reach hell's gate via that BUT in order to do so tracks need to be rebuilt on rockaway ROW BUT not linked to LIRR tracks so a small segment will be elevated and with 2 tracks over queens blvd where an intermodal station can be built for LIRR and the subway to transfer preferably in elmhurst to link the port washington line. The tracks will eventually merge into trackage near BQE which merges into hells' gate.

Then new tracks but short very short only to allow for NW turning onto that ROW near harlem river that track will be disconnected from the hudson line and redirected to GWB terminal over 179th a second track can be added and will be over 178th en rte to GWB.

 

HOWEVER you did open up another possibility that may be another way to work this. The line can instead be separate and go to 125th harlem but I don't think that is practical yet. Reroute of hudson line express trains via new ROW that branches off into the GWB terminal then over amtrak back to it's own line en rte to croton harmon or poughkeepsie. That can be another way to make GWB work. That way this light rail idea may not be needed.

 

However since Q53 is fast maybe a new SBS line from woodside to 125th manhattan via astoria or extension of another either way. Then reroute of hudson line over new trackage via GWB may be the cheaper option. But In a way rail may be the only way to get more cars off the road but I am not sure on SBS vs rail as others here advocate for rail. The rail option expressed first was a way to link as many transit modes as possible. If done one can take NJT of CUSA to GWB from north to this line for LIRR which will be much faster than rotting on I-495 but that is just me. There are several possibilities each with it's own strength and weakness.

 

Past the first page, its Bascially fantasy thoughts

 

you may have a point.
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Gentlemen,

 

Let's try to get back on track here....

 

As for turning the old rail line into a park (which is what the thread is about.... <_< ), I don't think it should be done.

 

A reactivated rail line would make life easier for so many people in Queens (and also in Brooklyn).

 

It would help passengers commute a little easier inside of Queens. It would also help people commute between Brooklyn and Queens a little better. The Rockaways could use more consistent service...

 

I understand the arguments of some of the so called NIMBYs....but perhaps the line could bypass certain neighborhoods.

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Here are a few of my outside the box solutions to fixing the missing gaps in the Queens and Brooklyn Transit Coverage....each Neighborhood in NYC should either have Rail Service or be within a half mile of a line...reuse Every line in this region....Parks can be built along side the lines....but Rail needs to be expanded in this region. We lag behind other regions in expanding our network , London , Paris , Toronto , Los Angeles , are all expanding their systems at decent clips while NYC decides to turn its old ROW's into parks which doesn't really help anyone. The Cities population is expected to grow to 11 million by 2050 mainly in the outer boroughs , while the Region is expected to grow to 31 million by 2050 without more Rail transit this region will choke by then....its already strained in some areas.... Reactivating the Rockaway Branch is not a Foamers Dream , its a Public transit need...

 

Rockaway Beach Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Rego Park South

Woodhaven

Ozone Park

Howard Beach

Board Channel

Rockaway Beach

 

Regional Connector

Croton-Harmon

Ossing

Scarborough

Philipse Manor

Tarrytown

Irvington

Ardsley on Hudson

Dobbs Ferry

Hasting on Hudson

Greystone

Glenwood

Yonkers

Ludlow

Riverdale

Spuyten Duyvil

Marbel Hill

University Heights

Morris Heights

Mott Haven

Northern Boulvard - Woodside

Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Ridgewood

East New York

Canarsie

Flatbush Ave

Ocean Parkway

Bay Ridge

St. George

Bayonne

Port Elizabeth

Midtown Elizabeth

Elmora

Cranford

Garwood

Westfield

Fanwood

Netherwood

Plainfield

Dunellen

Bound Brook

Raritan

 

Northern Connector Xpress

North White Plains

White Plains

Hartsdale

Scarsdale

Mount Vernon West

Fordham

Mott Haven

Northern Boulevard - Woodside

Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

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Here are a few of my outside the box solutions to fixing the missing gaps in the Queens and Brooklyn Transit Coverage....each Neighborhood in NYC should either have Rail Service or be within a half mile of a line...reuse Every line in this region....Parks can be built along side the lines....but Rail needs to be expanded in this region. We lag behind other regions in expanding our network , London , Paris , Toronto , Los Angeles , are all expanding their systems at decent clips while NYC decides to turn its old ROW's into parks which doesn't really help anyone. The Cities population is expected to grow to 11 million by 2050 mainly in the outer boroughs , while the Region is expected to grow to 31 million by 2050 without more Rail transit this region will choke by then....its already strained in some areas.... Reactivating the Rockaway Branch is not a Foamers Dream , its a Public transit need...

 

Rockaway Beach Branch

New York Penn Station (Grand Central Starting in 2019)

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside

Rego Park South

Woodhaven

Ozone Park

Howard Beach

Board Channel

Rockaway Beach

 

Regional Connector

Croton-Harmon

Ossing

Scarborough

Philipse Manor

Tarrytown

Irvington

Ardsley on Hudson

Dobbs Ferry

Hasting on Hudson

Greystone

Glenwood

Yonkers

Ludlow

Riverdale

Spuyten Duyvil

Marbel Hill

University Heights

Morris Heights

Mott Haven

Northern Boulvard - Woodside

Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Ridgewood

East New York

Canarsie

Flatbush Ave

Ocean Parkway

Bay Ridge

St. George

Bayonne

Port Elizabeth

Midtown Elizabeth

Elmora

Cranford

Garwood

Westfield

Fanwood

Netherwood

Plainfield

Dunellen

Bound Brook

Raritan

 

Northern Connector Xpress

North White Plains

White Plains

Hartsdale

Scarsdale

Mount Vernon West

Fordham

Mott Haven

Northern Boulevard - Woodside

Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica

 

NICE man you are very right on the money that was what I was saying earlier build parks along side the rail lines Nexis what ROW does the northern connector express use?? can you map it please thank you.
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NICE man you are very right on the money that was what I was saying earlier build parks along side the rail lines Nexis what ROW does the northern connector express use?? can you map it please thank you.

 

 

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215312482559953359515.000496c9cdea77cff2ae1&msa=0&ll=40.713435,-73.893356&spn=0.351312,0.837021

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Its funny, how I remember reading about this abandoned line about a year ago on here and there were users arguing so strongly that it be turned back into service. But look at this way, Queens has been doing fine with the subway service it has now for years and is constantly getting additions added to their service, for example, the (7) extension. Why do we need another subway line added when a park that everyone can enjoy and keeps the peace and quiet can be preserved in the area? I'm for the park.

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Its funny, how I remember reading about this abandoned line about a year ago on here and there were users arguing so strongly that it be turned back into service. But look at this way, Queens has been doing fine with the subway service it has now for years and is constantly getting additions added to their service, for example, the (7) extension. Why do we need another subway line added when a park that everyone can enjoy and keeps the peace and quiet can be preserved in the area? I'm for the park.

 

I wouldn't exactly call thousands of people in the eastern portion having to pile onto slow, overcrowded buses to reach the subway "fine".

 

Yeah, Woodhaven Blvd isn't quite as bad in that area as further east, but it's still far from "fine".

 

And everybody can "enjoy" the subway line too.

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Its funny, how I remember reading about this abandoned line about a year ago on here and there were users arguing so strongly that it be turned back into service. But look at this way, Queens has been doing fine with the subway service it has now for years and is constantly getting additions added to their service, for example, the (7) extension. Why do we need another subway line added when a park that everyone can enjoy and keeps the peace and quiet can be preserved in the area? I'm for the park.

 

 

Yeah sure, Queens is doing absolutely great w/ it's subway service! Oh no, we don't suffer packed subway rides and numerous delays, we're doing absolutely great!

 

What additions? That "addition" you call of the (7) line extensions is really just there to prop up Bloomberg's Hudson Yards Project. Unlike Manhattan, we're not getting a new subway line built or extended - and Queens needs more subway mileage, not less. You really want to serve Queens - extend the (7) further east to Bayside or Little Neck. Extend the Archer Ave Line (E)(J)(Z) to it's intended termini, SE Queens. Extend (F) from 179th to Little Neck Pkwy - in short, Queens is vastly underserved by subway service in it's outer reaches, and those areas are growing rapidly. The area of the proposed QueensWay was always intended to be converted to subway use - which is why the LIRR never formally filed the paperwork to legally abandon it. Where it traverses through, those areas are heavily car dependent, and rely heavily on buses - hello, Q53, Q52, Q11, and Q21! You build this thing out, not only will Queens have better North-South Connections - but it will also provide the Rockaways (if and when the crossings across the Flats come back into service) faster subway service into Manhattan - something they've been clamoring for and rightfully deserve.

 

But the (7) extension is in Manhattan, which doesn't do much for the (7) on the Queens end other than to save a bus transfer to the Javits center.

 

 

Exactly, and as far as I know, I'm not going to the Javits anytime soon.

 

I wouldn't exactly call thousands of people in the eastern portion having to pile onto slow, overcrowded buses to reach the subway "fine".

 

Yeah, Woodhaven Blvd isn't quite as bad in that area as further east, but it's still far from "fine".

 

And everybody can "enjoy" the subway line too.

 

 

Exactly. If you see, most of the people who support this are part of Queens CB6 (Forest Hills, Rego Park), and many of them enjoy fast, convient access to Midtown - by converting this into a park, it's as if they're saying, "Hey, we enjoy fast subway access, and we're gonna be egotistical SOB's and deny it to you." It's also important to know that many homeowners along the line illegally extended there yards/properties into the ROW (which, again, is city property), and they want to cover their @sses by having it converted into a park.

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so about the hell's gate connector is it abandoned or is it in use for freight? To be honest that was the ROW I thought my (K) option would have to use to reach GWB. However that option may not be the best after seeing your map. But tell me what do you intend for that connector?
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I really like how everyone believes that it's the neighborhood that supports the park when it's not true at all. Second Avenue Sagas already mentioned that the people that are arguing against the rail line and are supporting the park idea is a small but a very vocal group. Which means they are talk loud, but they don't make up much. A majority of the neighborhood supports rail, but they aren't as vocal so they can't do much.

 

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2012/12/24/a-park-instead-of-rail-inches-forward-in-queens/

 

The second problem is I don't know where are all these people that are asking for more parks coming from. The High Line, and every other rail to park idea is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard. The National Park Service already mentions that New York City has the most amount of parks for any city in the United States. Emphasis with capitalization "THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE ALREADY MENTIONED THAT NEW YORK CITY HAS THE MOST AMOUNT OF PARKS FOR ANY CITY IN THE UNITED STATES!" Why do these people encourage that we have more parks when we already have the most parks in the United States? It doesn't make any sense. If people want parks they can move to many of the cities large parks including Fresh Kills Park. Isn't that right?

 

We are behind in many large cities around the world in mass transit. While other people in cities build and focus on reactivating lines for subways we are the most stupidest in asking for more parks and highways. Does anyone in the United States realize that we lag behind in transportation, and we are the largest contributors to global warming as we know it by burning oil? Apparently not. Maybe America needs a giant pie in it's face to realize how far behind it is. We are a laughingstock. We start building high speed rail when countries are already mostly done and are upgrading it. What a shame!

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Although I did sound quite harsh I wasn't incorrect, but I think a good idea would be the rail with trails idea. Ozone Park has room for four tracks. It can be turned into a 2 tracked station with 2 outer tracks being a park, Woodhaven Junction could have the trains run on the current location with the park being above it, Brooklyn Manor and Parkside can have trains run on it's tracks while the park will run parallel to the station, and Rego Park is a 6 tracked station. It can have 4 tracks removed with the last two being park of a new 2 tracked station. In the end both sides could win.

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NYC also has among the smallest carbon footprints per capita, still. This isn't Los Angeles or Atlanta, two of the biggest culprits in the country. You just wonder if further investment in the outerboros can even be afforded anymore being that the cost of building wasn't what it was when most of the system was built (even with inflation). As I notice, new building/renovation has pretty much been limited to areas that have a major geographical impact over a fairly large area (ESA will affect almost all of Long Island, SAS is not purely just a UES thing).

 

Anything on that abandoned line will be limited to just those communities along it, which is partly why it has remained abandoned to this day. They should have just absorbed it into the system long before, in the same way the Dyre branch was tied in, before it even got in such a state of disrepair. I was always in favor of propositions, in which small elections are held by defined communities for things that will affect those communities (we only hear about the big statewide ones for controversial laws). I wonder how this would do in such a proposition, where only those districts along the abandoned line could vote?

 

In the end while some may cry and complain for a park, others may cry and complain for a rail line that only gets them to midtown faster, but not lower Manhattan btw (assuming the tie-in at Rego Park), is it really all that different from those "near shovel ready" stuff that will never happen as they affect too few people, like extending the (F)(E)(A) (Lefferts branch) and/or (J) out near the Nassau border? I don't call the (7) ready to go, as the other mentioned lines all have tail tracks/structure, and structure is cheap compared to tunnel.

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Back on topic. While I feel disappointed about the choice of a park for the Rockaway Line, I understand fears that Forest Hills residents (and those from nearby Middle Village and Glendale, to a lesser extent) have in the sense that the subway would bring larger development to their semi-suburban neighborhoods.

 

 

That's why I want the LIRR back there, like it used to be instead of a subway. You can say a lot about it but at least that way they have nothing to fear and still have the connection.

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I really like how everyone believes that it's the neighborhood that supports the park when it's not true at all. Second Avenue Sagas already mentioned that the people that are arguing against the rail line and are supporting the park idea is a small but a very vocal group. Which means they are talk loud, but they don't make up much. A majority of the neighborhood supports rail, but they aren't as vocal so they can't do much.

 

http://secondavenues...ward-in-queens/

 

The second problem is I don't know where are all these people that are asking for more parks coming from. The High Line, and every other rail to park idea is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard. The National Park Service already mentions that New York City has the most amount of parks for any city in the United States. Emphasis with capitalization "THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE ALREADY MENTIONED THAT NEW YORK CITY HAS THE MOST AMOUNT OF PARKS FOR ANY CITY IN THE UNITED STATES!" Why do these people encourage that we have more parks when we already have the most parks in the United States? It doesn't make any sense. If people want parks they can move to many of the cities large parks including Fresh Kills Park. Isn't that right?

 

We are behind in many large cities around the world in mass transit. While other people in cities build and focus on reactivating lines for subways we are the most stupidest in asking for more parks and highways. Does anyone in the United States realize that we lag behind in transportation, and we are the largest contributors to global warming as we know it by burning oil? Apparently not. Maybe America needs a giant pie in it's face to realize how far behind it is. We are a laughingstock. We start building high speed rail when countries are already mostly done and are upgrading it. What a shame!

 

 

High-speed rail as in being there or functioning? 'Cause I know only a few countries who actually have high-speed working like it should. My country for example has a bad reputation at the moment because we allow high-speed trains but no actual high speeds. And our high speed train authority is nearly bankrupt. And this applies to more countries. In some countries it works good like France, China, Japan and to some extent Germany. But in a lot of countries there are tons of problems along with it or no high-speed gains like in my country. So USA is behind in that regard? A little, but not as much as you think. And when it comes to cities then NYC has one of the best networks a city can have. I'm not saying it's the best but a lot of cities around the world can learn from 'em to some extent.

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  • 2 weeks later...
NYC also has among the smallest carbon footprints per capita, still. This isn't Los Angeles or Atlanta, two of the biggest culprits in the country. You just wonder if further investment in the outerboros can even be afforded anymore being that the cost of building wasn't what it was when most of the system was built (even with inflation). As I notice, new building/renovation has pretty much been limited to areas that have a major geographical impact over a fairly large area (ESA will affect almost all of Long Island, SAS is not purely just a UES thing).

 

Anything on that abandoned line will be limited to just those communities along it, which is partly why it has remained abandoned to this day. They should have just absorbed it into the system long before, in the same way the Dyre branch was tied in, before it even got in such a state of disrepair. I was always in favor of propositions, in which small elections are held by defined communities for things that will affect those communities (we only hear about the big statewide ones for controversial laws). I wonder how this would do in such a proposition, where only those districts along the abandoned line could vote?

 

In the end while some may cry and complain for a park, others may cry and complain for a rail line that only gets them to midtown faster, but not lower Manhattan btw (assuming the tie-in at Rego Park), is it really all that different from those "near shovel ready" stuff that will never happen as they affect too few people, like extending the (F)(E)(A) (Lefferts branch) and/or (J) out near the Nassau border? I don't call the (7) ready to go, as the other mentioned lines all have tail tracks/structure, and structure is cheap compared to tunnel.

(J) to nassau county border shovel ready? are tracks there all the way out like that?
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NYC also has among the smallest carbon footprints per capita, still. This isn't Los Angeles or Atlanta, two of the biggest culprits in the country.

 

Actually, I heard that LA isn't that bad with the carbon footprint. People talk about the suburban sprawl out there, but it's dense sprawl, and the streets are fairly grid-like, which means transit use is actually fairly high.

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Good find. It's true that there are people opposed to both ideas. What was interesting is that Ed Wendell of the Woodhaven Residents’ Block Association said that he would be open to restoring the Rockaway Line up to Atlantic Ave and having them turn west there. That sounds better than letting the whole thing continue to sit there unused or be turned into a Queensway. However, that would require turning the entire Atlantic branch from Flatbush Avenue to Jamaica over to NYC transit. And it would require a track connection to one of the existing B-Division tunnels between Brooklyn and Manhattan (Montague (R), Cranberry (A)(C), or Rutgers (F) ). That will be expensive. Though I would prefer doing that over letting the line sit there unused for another 50 years or be turned into a glorified High Line without the tourist appeal.

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