Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #51 Posted January 10, 2013 I didn't know animals knew how to paint. One: I don't live with my father. Two: I won't lie, just 5 minutes ago, I thought about asking him that. So are little kids ghetto? They wreck and destroy things. Is the US Government ghetto? They are the biggest criminals ever and destroy things that aren't theirs. What about Jews that were in ACTUAL GHETTO's. Technically, those people were ghetto. Didn't see them destroying things either. You really need to think about how you throw that around more thoroughly because frankly, you use it too much. Next time, use things like "No home training", "Not enough whoopings as a kid", or just plain "Fools". Most "Ghetto" people don't go around tearing up things that aren't theirs and putting graffiti on walls. They just act dumb. Never left their local area and there fore don't know a thing about this city or the world. Their mind revolves around the hood and make excuses to why it's bad and the moment you say how it can be changed, they call it impossible. -END- Don't play dumb now... You know very well what I mean by ghetto because you just stated it... "They just act dumb... Never left their local area and therefore don't know a thing about this city or the world. Their mind revolves around the hood..." And to add to that they act uncivilized like animals do that just go about wildly. No civilized, law abiding human being would go around defacing property as if that is normal to do. I like how you didn't answer my question about how you and your father would like it someone came along and defaced your apartment or house... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted January 10, 2013 Share #52 Posted January 10, 2013 Lack of enforcement means nothing. Not as hash punishments mean nothing. Vandals DO NOT CARE about rules. No matter how much enforcement you have, they will always find a way. Tagging up trains was an art to them. My own father, who I consistently try to tell that that was something he should not have done, still stands by the Art excuse. They don't care. I'm sure there will always be some who don't abide by the rules in the name of art. And some works of graffiti are indeed artistic, seen by some as vandalism and others as art. I refuse to believe, however, that anyone sees scratching ones initials into a metal windowframe as art. I do think a lot of this is opportunity, and a combination of adjustments to enforcement and penalties could curtail it, but I agree it would not eliminate the issue. --- As for the claim that the problem comes from "ghetto" mindset - I'm not in the head of these vandals, acquainted with vandals, so I'm not going to judge who these vandals are or make assumptions based on the socioeconomic geography of the city. I will, however, say the meanest, most careless, most petulant, rude, and destructive people I've ever met are universally privileged suburbanites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #53 Posted January 10, 2013 I'm sure there will always be some who don't abide by the rules in the name of art. And some works of graffiti are indeed artistic, seen by some as vandalism and others as art. I refuse to believe, however, that anyone sees scratching ones initials into a metal windowframe as art. I do think a lot of this is opportunity, and a combination of adjustments to enforcement and penalties could curtail it, but I agree it would not eliminate the issue. --- As for the claim that the problem comes from "ghetto" mindset - I'm not in the head of these vandals, acquainted with vandals, so I'm not going to judge who these vandals are or make assumptions based on the socioeconomic geography of the city. I will, however, say the meanest, most careless, most petulant, rude, and destructive people I've ever met are universally privileged suburbanites. And what exactly is that supposed to mean? On the one hand you can give the ghetto savages a pass but hard working, professional, middle class and upper middle class suburbanites are somehow "universally" petulant, rude and destructive and last of all "privileged" huh?? I guess we all have everything "spoon fed" to us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #54 Posted January 10, 2013 Don't play dumb now... You know very well what I mean by ghetto because you just stated it... "They just act dumb... Never left their local area and therefore don't know a thing about this city or the world. Their mind revolves around the hood..." And to add to that they act uncivilized like animals do that just go about wildly. No civilized, law abiding human being would go around defacing property as if that is normal to do. I like how yo didn't answer my question about how you and your father would like it someone came along and defaced your apartment or house... I obviously would not like it but when did I say that it was okay? And not to mention, you just said one of the most politically incorrect things I've ever heard in my life. And I'm not exaggerating. "And to add to that they act uncivilized like animals do that just go about wildly." Something like that is something I never want to hear because it basically OOZES what is wrong with this country. Please see below: I'm sure there will always be some who don't abide by the rules in the name of art. And some works of graffiti are indeed artistic, seen by some as vandalism and others as art. I refuse to believe, however, that anyone sees scratching ones initials into a metal windowframe as art. I do think a lot of this is opportunity, and a combination of adjustments to enforcement and penalties could curtail it, but I agree it would not eliminate the issue. --- As for the claim that the problem comes from "ghetto" mindset - I'm not in the head of these vandals, acquainted with vandals, so I'm not going to judge who these vandals are or make assumptions based on the socioeconomic geography of the city. I will, however, say the meanest, most careless, most petulant, rude, and destructive people I've ever met are universally privileged suburbanites. You're right, scratchitti isn't art, but it still isn't just "ghetto" people that do it. And I agree on your last statement. They are the most bored people on earth that have nothing better to do. At least some of those "ghetto" people that Via claims are "like animals" have jobs and kids to feed and don't have time to be destroying and/or defacing things. Someone needs to take a walk out of Riverdale and see if he gets away with saying that aloud in public. EDIT: Let me be more specific. This is aimed at people aged 12-25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #55 Posted January 10, 2013 I obviously would not like it but when did I say that it was okay? And not to mention, you just said one of the most politically incorrect things I've ever heard in my life. And I'm not exaggerating. "And to add to that they act uncivilized like animals do that just go about wildly." Something like that is something I never want to hear because it basically OOZES what is wrong with this country. Please see below: You're right, scratchitti isn't art, but it still isn't just "ghetto" people that do it. And I agree on your last statement. They are the most bored people on earth that have nothing better to do. At least some of those "ghetto" people that Via claims are "like animals" have jobs and kids to feed and don't have time to be destroying and/or defacing things. lol... It can't be politically incorrect when it's true. As for the ghetto people that have jobs... Please they are few and far in between... The welfare numbers show that... In fact a lot of them only have jobs because they are forced to work... In any event, shall we give them a prize for actually holding a job and being a half-@ssed productive member of society?? Oh and you don't have to come out and say it's okay... The way that you sit here and try to insinuate that it's a lost cause in a way shows how you're trying to justify that we shouldn't do anything about the problem. If that's the case then how did we go from completely tagged trains in the 80s to trains that are much cleaner and have less tagging today?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 10, 2013 Share #56 Posted January 10, 2013 Well, here in my country we also have a lot of people acting like they're from the ghetto so this I can actually sympathize with VG8 on that particular argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #57 Posted January 10, 2013 lol... It can't be politically incorrect when it's true. As for the ghetto people that have jobs... Please they are few and far in between... The welfare numbers show that... In fact a lot of them only have jobs because they are forced to work... In any event, shall we give them a prize for actually holding a job and being a half-@ssed productive member of society?? Oh and you don't have to come out and say it's okay... The way that you sit here and try to insinuate that it's a lost cause in a way shows how you're trying to justify that we shouldn't do anything about the problem. If that's the case then how did we go from completely tagged trains in the 80s to trains that are much cleaner and have less tagging today?? I never said it's a lost cause, I said NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, they will find a way. 2nd, you really think that everyone on welfare is ghetto? Because I know there are many people that you would consider "ghetto" that have good jobs and houses. There are also people on welfare that need it that aren't "ghetto". We went from completely tagged to no tags because someone finally said, "Let's get off our ass and become world class again." Not because Vandals stopped. Because they are keeping trains graffiti free. They aren't neglecting the system. They have plans. They are producing results. I still see trains that are tagged, but within 24 hours, the tags are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #58 Posted January 10, 2013 Well, here in my country we also have a lot of people acting like they're from the ghetto so this I can actually sympathize with VG8 on that particular argument. The one thing I hated about living in Europe... Damn graffiti over the trains... I never understood why it was so popular there either... One thing I did notice is that this was a problem in certain cities... Now in Northern Italy, particularly in the Lombardy region, you can go to Milan and find spotless streets and very little graffiti... Why? Because it isn't tolerated there. The folks up there demand clean streets and clean trains and so they don't allow that nonsense to go about. Folks take pride in where they live and that in turn resonates to everything... This was also true in most parts of Florence where I lived, also in "Northern Italy" in terms of class and wealth (even though it is technically in Central Italy). I never said it's a lost cause, I said NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, they will find a way. 2nd, you really think that everyone on welfare is ghetto? Because I know there are many people that you would consider "ghetto" that have good jobs and houses. There are also people on welfare that need it that aren't "ghetto". We went from completely tagged to no tags because someone finally said, "Let's get off our ass and become world class again." Not because Vandals stopped. Because they are keeping trains graffiti free. They aren't neglecting the system. They have plans. They are producing results. I still see trains that are tagged, but within 24 hours, the tags are gone. Oh yeah? And you think there wasn't any other reason like getting tough on the folks doing the graffiti? If you do then you're clearly on something. What we need is a mayor that will take a non-tolerance stance on nonsense like this and put undercover cops on the street to do stings. Fine them heavy so that the city gets revenue out of it and then make them clean it up. That's how you tackle the problem and you enforce the fare so that they either pay or walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted January 10, 2013 Share #59 Posted January 10, 2013 The welfare numbers? The ones that show less than 400,000 people in a city of 9 million actually getting welfare payments? That's more than 95% of the city working for a living -____- Anyway I vote either the conversation moves back toward actual strategies for vandalism prevention/remediation, or we close up this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #60 Posted January 10, 2013 You mean like the Mayor we have now that supports Obama becoming a dictator? I guess in the next year or two when Martial Law is everywhere, you'll be satisfied? Because it's already happening. We've already seen that non-tolerance type things also don't completely solve problems. All you have to do is turn on your TV to see that. You can get tough on people, but the people will go around that ad do what they want to do. We see that when it comes to guns in this city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #61 Posted January 10, 2013 The welfare numbers? The ones that show less than 400,000 people in a city of 9 million actually getting welfare payments? That's more than 95% of the city working for a living -____- Anyway I vote either the conversation moves back toward actual strategies for vandalism prevention/remediation, or we close up this thread. Oh please.... Welfare under Obama has continued to increase since he's been in office.... I guess you didn't hear about how folks here in the city that use the welfare cards for everything but the essentials... Beer, cigarettes... All on the taxpayer dollars... Here are the numbers to prove it: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/18/welfare-spending-jumps-32-percent-four-years/?page=all As for "remedies" we've already stated some... Question is can we get a mayor with balls like Giuliani who isn't afraid to tackle petty crimes like these? Maybe Lhota will grow some if he can get in office... @LTA... When Giuliani was in office he went on a crusade to clean up the city including the subways... When Dinkins was in office people were afraid to ride the subways and they were tagged and filthy, so yes taking action can and does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #62 Posted January 10, 2013 Thst's not welfare, thats EBT Foodstamps. 2 different things AND you have to know the guy that runs the store you go to. That's not easy. It may make a difference, but it still doesn't solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted January 10, 2013 Share #63 Posted January 10, 2013 Jesus Christ, WTF does this whole socio-economic argument have to do with the R143's? Who cares who's the one defacing the trains, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. It's no reason to pigeon-hole any class or group because of shit you saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ MC Posted January 10, 2013 Share #64 Posted January 10, 2013 How did this thread go from R143s not looking good to express buses, the ghetto, Martial law, to Obama and Mayors, to BS and crap? SMFH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #65 Posted January 10, 2013 Jesus Christ, WTF does this whole socio-economic argument have to do with the R143's? Who cares who's the one defacing the trains, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. It's no reason to pigeon-hole any class or group because of shit you saw. Well that's the whole problem.... The individuals doing it aren't being singled out as they should be and dealt with... We know they shouldn't be doing it. That's obvious. Furthermore, no one is pigeon-holing any class or group... They're doing to themselves by their own actions. How did this thread go from R143s not looking good to express buses, the ghetto, Martial law, to Obama and Mayors, to BS and crap? SMFH. It's all quite relative... The R143s not looking good didn't just happen by themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan Railer Posted January 10, 2013 Share #66 Posted January 10, 2013 This thread title is wholly misleading. Are the R143s breaking down left and right? Are they hindering service? No. Who gives a flying crap about what they look like? As long as my train gets me to from point A to point B, I could care less what it looks like. And it's not like we're dealing with fully graffitied trains like in the 70s and the 80s. This is not nearly as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted January 10, 2013 Share #67 Posted January 10, 2013 Oh please.... Welfare under Obama has continued to increase since he's been in office.... I guess you didn't hear about how folks here in the city that use the welfare cards for everything but the essentials... Beer, cigarettes... All on the taxpayer dollars... Here are the numbers to prove it: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/18/welfare-spending-jumps-32-percent-four-years/?page=all Did you read the article you sent? "Welfare" in the context of the article refers to "Domestic Public Welfare Spending" It includes Medicaid (which is 46% of the welfare spending by the way). To quote "Virtually all the rest is in the form of in-kind assistance: Medicaid, SNAP, WIC, housing vouchers, Pell Grants, LIHEAP and child care vouchers; or in the form of direct services, such as community health centers, Title 1 education, foster care, school lunch and Head Start" and "the cash assistance figure was “a shockingly small amount of money” in the scheme of things." Also those numbers are national, and the increase quoted is one of spending, not of applicants. I'm not arguing this point anymore because it's immaterial to the vandalism issue - truly. Jesus Christ, WTF does this whole socio-economic argument have to do with the R143's? Who cares who's the one defacing the trains, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. It's no reason to pigeon-hole any class or group because of shit you saw. Agreed - that's the point I was trying to make, succinctly put better than I had made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #68 Posted January 10, 2013 Did you read the article you sent? "Welfare" in the context of the article refers to "Domestic Public Welfare Spending" It includes Medicaid (which is 46% of the welfare spending by the way). To quote "Virtually all the rest is in the form of in-kind assistance: Medicaid, SNAP, WIC, housing vouchers, Pell Grants, LIHEAP and child care vouchers; or in the form of direct services, such as community health centers, Title 1 education, foster care, school lunch and Head Start" and "the cash assistance figure was “a shockingly small amount of money” in the scheme of things." Also those numbers are national, and the increase quoted is one of spending, not of applicants. I'm not arguing this point anymore because it's immaterial to the vandalism issue - truly. I bet it is... I would be curious to see how many of these "upstanding" individuals are the ones tagging the trains.... So I guess the trains are just being tagged by themselves.... Maybe we can magically have it disappear by itself too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #69 Posted January 10, 2013 They say that the least likely suspects are usually the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #70 Posted January 10, 2013 They say that the least likely suspects are usually the culprit. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookiePhenom Posted January 10, 2013 Share #71 Posted January 10, 2013 Trying to bring this back around: This has to have been an isolated incident, nothing more. And for trains that are 10 years old with so [little] done to them. Props? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted January 10, 2013 Share #72 Posted January 10, 2013 I bet it is... I would be curious to see how many of these "upstanding" individuals are the ones tagging the trains.... So I guess the trains are just being tagged by themselves.... Maybe we can magically have it disappear by itself too... Well we could just make it MORE illegal for lower-income folks to vandalize the trains. After all, these people have it much easier in the criminal justice system than those of us who work for a living. This is tiresome and frustrating. You've made your point: "Well this wouldn't happen if it weren't for the ghetto people/welfare people/classless people/people who don't look like me". Lets say, in a fantasy world, 100% of people who vandalized trains were named Stuart. You can't arrest everyone named Stuart because 100% of people named Stuart don't vandalize the trains. You can't make laws against people named Stuart riding trains, because of you know, the constitution. If you want to stop the vandalism problem, the solution needs to be equally applied to everyone, and if you catch a vandal, their penalty has to be the same as everyone else, unless there's something known and specific to that one person like if they were a repeat offender. Ergo, there's no reason to harp on what group is most responsible for the vandalism, unless you really just want to take the opportunity to speak out against that group of people. Therefore, it is noted - your dislike of a group of people that you've really all but outright named is heard loud and clear, thanks for your input there: Now, what do we do about the vandalism? How about an enforcement spree. It's even fair to say we could target lines that see more vandalism than others. The magical part about that is - while this enforcement could very well focus on areas you've deemed most responsible - we're basing it on empirical evidence of amount of damage done per geographic area. We've helped the problem, and targeted the solution, without disenfranchising any races, classes, cultures, peoples, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So does anybody else have any ideas for mitigating vandalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share #73 Posted January 10, 2013 Well we could just make it MORE illegal for lower-income folks to vandalize the trains. After all, these people have it much easier in the criminal justice system than those of us who work for a living. This is tiresome and frustrating. You've made your point: "Well this wouldn't happen if it weren't for the ghetto people/welfare people/classless people/people who don't look like me". Lets say, in a fantasy world, 100% of people who vandalized trains were named Stuart. You can't arrest everyone named Stuart because 100% of people named Stuart don't vandalize the trains. You can't make laws against people named Stuart riding trains, because of you know, the constitution. If you want to stop the vandalism problem, the solution needs to be equally applied to everyone, and if you catch a vandal, their penalty has to be the same as everyone else, unless there's something known and specific to that one person like if they were a repeat offender. Ergo, there's no reason to harp on what group is most responsible for the vandalism, unless you really just want to take the opportunity to speak out against that group of people. Therefore, it is noted - your dislike of a group of people that you've really all but outright named is heard loud and clear, thanks for your input there: Now, what do we do about the vandalism? How about an enforcement spree. It's even fair to say we could target lines that see more vandalism than others. The magical part about that is - while this enforcement could very well focus on areas you've deemed most responsible - we're basing it on empirical evidence of amount of damage done per geographic area. We've helped the problem, and targeted the solution, without disenfranchising any races, classes, cultures, peoples, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So does anybody else have any ideas for mitigating vandalism? I honestly don't think anyone else does... In fact anytime these sorts of topics come up the only thing that is done is to try to say that the problem isn't that bad and who cares who is doing it. It's a nice way of saying that a problem doesn't exist and escaping reality. When someone speaks up about it and speaks the truth they're accused of "attacking" specific groups. Ha! Gotta love it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dj Hammers Posted January 10, 2013 Share #74 Posted January 10, 2013 Leave it to VG8 to ruin another thread with his inciting and insensitive behavior... smh This class warfare stuff ONLY happens when VG8 is somehow involved. All it does is ruin interesting threads and degrades people's experiences on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttcsubwayfan Posted January 10, 2013 Share #75 Posted January 10, 2013 I honestly don't think anyone else does... In fact anytime these sorts of topics come up the only thing that is done is to try to say that the problem isn't that bad and who cares who is doing it. It's a nice way of saying that a problem doesn't exist and escaping reality. When someone speaks up about it and speaks the truth they're accused of "attacking" specific groups. Ha! Gotta love it... Yeah... that's the reasonable explanation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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