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JubaionBx12+SBS

Connecting the dots to better commutes

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Seems like to me this goes back to frequency more than anything else.  When you are using a less frequent route you're forced to time it or wait.  As for you surely you know that even with you using frequent routes, there is still a time that you have to be out by if you expect to make it to your destination on time, but you're essentially stating that you have to be less on a fixed schedule than she does, which makes sense.  If you leave roughly around the same time every morning and have access to a route that runs every 5 minutes, having to wait 5-10 isn't going to make a huge difference as opposed to waiting 30 minutes.

 

@qjtransit:

 

 

lol... How is she a fool exactly?? The card is $50.00 a week and if there are 5 weeks in the month then it is $250.00 for the month.  Come March it will be $55.00 a week, so it'll be $220.00 - $275.00 a month... Not exactly that far off....

 

 

 

And quite honestly, that is a deal considering the cost of a regular 30-day unlimited.

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Seems like to me this goes back to frequency more than anything else.  When you are using a less frequent route you're forced to time it or wait.  As for you surely you know that even with you using frequent routes, there is still a time that you have to be out by if you expect to make it to your destination on time, but you're essentially stating that you have to be less on a fixed schedule than she does, which makes sense.  If you leave roughly around the same time every morning and have access to a route that runs every 5 minutes, having to wait 5-10 isn't going to make a huge difference as opposed to waiting 30 minutes.

 

@qjtransit:

 

 

lol... How is she a fool exactly?? The card is $50.00 a week and if there are 5 weeks in the month then it is $250.00 for the month.  Come March it will be $55.00 a week, so it'll be $220.00 - $275.00 a month... Not exactly that far off....

 

The unlimited you do realize most months have 4 weeks right?

 

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The unlimited you do realize most months have 4 weeks right?

A life lesson QJ, it is better to go a bit over than it is to come up short. You'll be applying that to a lot in your life if you plan for it to be a sucessful one. :D

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If we think in general then i'm just typing nonsense. However, I don't feel there's any nonsense in just questioning the habits of commuters like those I mention (even if it ends up working for them). I would like to bring up the fact that although my sister and I both commute to different places (my commute being longer and more delay prone than hers) I end up making it to my destination on time more often then she does. I believe the reason for this has little to do with the amount of time we allow for our commutes because she does allow sufficient time for her commute on an everyday basis. I believe the reason has more to do with how we go about or commutes. My sister times her bus in the morning and essentially depends on the reliable arrival of that bus where I simply leave whenever* and just move along my way. 

 

My sister's commuting strategy sets her up for potential failure before she has even began her commute. Not only may the bus be delayed (or in a worst-case scenario early) there is the possibility she could be late for the bus. Life happens and it is very tough to always be leaving home at the same 5 minute interval to make a bus every morning. When she has been late it's been because of her rather than the bus. 

 

My commuting strategy is one that doesn't constrain my start time leaving home and allows me to move away from my point A rather quickly. Because of this if any delays occur they are usually closer to my destination than my starting point which is okay with me because my progress from point A leaves me with time to spare. 

 

As important as ease and comfort may be in a commute, the key to assuring a timely arrival at point B is moving away from point A. I bolded the word moving above because that's where I want to place emphasis. By choosing to wait for an infrequent service or time a bus/train where either you or the bus/train can be late, a situation is set up where lots of time could pass with little to no movement from the starting point. That is not smart for any commuter who needs to be somewhere on time. 

 

I say that this is a relevant issue for the MTA because most commuters like to blame their lack of timeliness on the MTA's unreliable service. Many times the individual commuter is more at fault then the MTA  meaning that some of the negative PR surrounding the agency's service is unjustified. The MTA, I feel needs to deflect that negative PR in any way it possibly can.

 

P.S.- I don't exactly start my commute whenever, I just use the word to point out that I don't shoot for an exact time to start rather than any time that allows me to get moving without being late off the bat. 

You're using this whole commuting habits bit to mask the fact that your sister confines her commute to a rather infrequent route..... That's all this is & that's all this has been...... You still haven't answered the question earlier - What argument would you have if the Q50 (or any other rather infrequent route in a 1 mode commute) were as frequent as say, the Bx12's of the world? Yeah you wanna be on something moving, but you also wanna be on something..... You'd rather be on the one mode that's gonna take you to your destination, over having to worry about what's gonna go wrong on the next mode you have to take... and the next mode.... and the next mode..... You are not gonna convince people that taking more than one mode is sensible over taking one mode if the option is available.... You try to cut your losses however you can, and you don't do that by opening yourself up to more variables that could possibly hamper your commute.....

 

Lol..... Dude, obviously the key to assuring a timely arrival to your destination is moving away from your origin (like how you worded it to try to make that sound like such a profound point btw) - but again, you portray the multi-moded commute as if you're always gonna catch each mode on the fly w/ no waiting time whatsoever.... That is not realistic to keep expecting for a daily commute..... As if you don't open yourself to waiting times & delays on more than one mode, compared to the one mode.....

 

Look, people are gonna try to minimize the amount of modes they have to take, cost-willing.... It's not just about ease & comfort, it's common sense.... If the multi-moded commute works in your particular case, great, knock yourself out - but don't expect other daily commuters to consider the logic you're conveying in this discussion because it may not (and IMO most likely will not) work out for the better for them.... And that is no fault of the MTA that commuters consider taking one mode if they could, either.....

 

As far as people bitching about the MTA whenever their commute goes awry (regardless of how many modes they take), yeah the commuter is at fault more likely so than the MTA - but not for this reasoning you're conveying on here is as such..... Not because a commuter can take 2,3, etc. modes when that commuter chooses to take the most direct route possible.....

 

 

Seems like to me this goes back to frequency more than anything else.  When you are using a less frequent route you're forced to time it or wait.  As for you surely you know that even with you using frequent routes, there is still a time that you have to be out by if you expect to make it to your destination on time, but you're essentially stating that you have to be less on a fixed schedule than she does, which makes sense.  If you leave roughly around the same time every morning and have access to a route that runs every 5 minutes, having to wait 5-10 isn't going to make a huge difference as opposed to waiting 30 minutes.

In each passing post of his, he's coming up with everything under the sun to make it seem like he's not making it an issue solely about frequency.... The rest of his commentary about commuting habits is, and will continue to be, a convenient smokescreen.... I mean just look at the very first sentense of his last post......

 

I'm not gonna keep beating a dead horse here, because he's not making a compelling argument in any of this.....

The thought process of a commuter that seeks to go about his/her commute in a direct fashion using 1 mode is not somehow wrong or flawed.....

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To me not commuting on a fixed schedule isn't some kind of luxury where I should be fortunate to have it. It is absolutely essential to completing a commute in a timely fashion. The only way someone who works on a fixed schedule (where they time a certain trip on a bus/train) can absolutely assure to end up on-time on a nearly 100% basis is to start the commute excessively early. While excessively early may seem relative, it actually is not. If someone allows significantly more commuting time, then his/her commute physically takes then he/she is excessively early. To explain in context...

 

- If someone's commute happens to be a 35 minute bus ride, then the commute physically takes 35 minutes. The commuter in question should not allow significantly more than 35 minutes for said commute to take place. However, if the route this bus ride takes place on is infrequent and/or unreliable said commuter has to allow  extra waiting time which can turn that 35 minutes into a 55-60 minute endeavor. The 55-60 minutes is much higher than 35 meaning there is a case of excessive earliness needed for this commuter to get to his/her destination on time. 

- Now let's say in the case of this commuter he has access to a highly frequent bus route at his/her starting point. This bus runs about every 3-4 minutes and is fairly reliable. This bus doesn't directly serve his/her destination (as opposed to the other one which does) so a transfer to another highly frequent mode would need to be made. The catch is that the local bus + transfer commute takes between 35-45 minutes and rarely exceeds that. This is lower than the 55-60 minutes needed to ensure timeliness on the one-seat ride.

 

Now if we weigh the two situations here, the second is clearly better than the first even if it involves more effort on the commuter's part. The second commute. However, many of the commuters I observe (including my sister which is why I mention her commute in the OP) would rather the first which when analyzed is clearly a worse option. In most cases, commuters don't even realize that the second situation is an option available to them. This is why I question people's commuting habits and mentalities.

 

Ultimately I would play the given scenario out like this... I would allow 45 minutes for my commute, If the one-seat ride happens to show up first for me I'll take it. If the other bus showed up right away, I will get on that and then use the second commute option. This way I avoid having to time an exact trip and avoid the long wait that could potentially exist with the one seat ride and best of all, I did not leave excessively early because the second option can physically take 45 minutes. Commuting is a moving process and one should not have to allow 55-60 minutes for 35 minutes of actual movement. In the second option there is minimal waiting involved and almost all of the time is spent inside of a moving vehicle. 

 

Most commuters in the city have the resources in terms of service to commute flexibly like this scenario would allow. 

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So basically you want all buses to run every 5 minutes or less so that you don't need to time your commute with a specific bus?  There are going to be tons of empty buses because there simply isn't that much of a demand.

Edited by Gorgor
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I'm not gonna waste too much time with this because it's gotten repetitive..... None of this nonsense about commuting habits in this discussion would be an issue if the sole direct mode of travel had better frequencies... Period.... It has squat to do with any luxury.....The idea that commuters across the board can knock off as much commuting time (15-20 minutes) by taking multiple modes to get from one place to another has gotten to the point of sheer fallacy now...... And purposefully minimizing time between transfers to fortify the point is deceptive.....

 

 

So basically you want all buses to run every 5 minutes or less so that you don't need to time your commute with a specific bus? 

There are going to be tons of empty buses because there simply isn't that much of a demand.

Ridiculous, isn't it......

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So basically you want all buses to run every 5 minutes or less so that you don't need to time your commute with a specific bus?  There are going to be tons of empty buses because there simply isn't that much of a demand.

I do not want all buses and subways to be that frequent. I like the frequencies for most bus routes the way they are now. However, I want to have options that combine to such frequency because waiting ultimately contradicts the goal of a commute. If I am trying to get somewhere without allowing excessive time (because I feel there are better ways to spend time) standing or sitting at one spot for longer than 5 minutes makes no sense at all. I would rather spend that time walking to be honest. I am one that would go to serious lengths (taking 3-4 routes on one trip) to avoid a wait (at any one spot) longer than 5 minutes during the rush hour. I am more tolerant with waiting during off-peak hours for some reason and will entertain commutes I wouldn't during rush hour. 

 

The grand point here is WAITING= Unproductive use of time and TIMING A SPECIFIC MODE= Risky because of the fixed schedule the commuter takes on. Commuters who do either one or both should not unless it's absolutely necessary. I just stand to believe that in most cases it can easily be avoided but the commuter doesn't do so. 

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LOL.... Well you better not move away from a route that has frequencies higher than five minutes... Or better yet, a route that is delayed a lot. I'm sorry, but people tell me I should take a cab and I've lived for years with 10 - 30 minute frequencies, be it local or express...

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I am about to post an anecdotal statement which can be discussed from whatever angle you choose to take it. 

 

I have a sister who takes the Q50 LTD bus as a part of her commute to high school. She doesn't have any real complaints regarding her commute but it's far from perfect. I say this because she usually has to time herself to a specific Q50 (which usually arrives at her stop at 7:15 am) to get to school on time in the morning. While she is almost always able to time this bus there can be instances where she does not and there was one time where she did not make that bus and ended up waiting for the next.

 

There were a few times where my sister and I happened to embark on our AM commutes at the same time so we walked towards our stop together. My commute allows me to take either the Bx12 +SBS, Bx23 or Q50 from the same stop my sister waits for the Q50. During these instances where my sister and I started off our commutes at the same time I always ended up getting a bus right away while my sister stayed behind for a Q50. I don't know about my sister but I personally get annoyed with long waits and wouldn't stand to use a route with high headways like the Q50 on a regular basis. I was thinking about ways to commute to her school which would involve minimal wait times and I found a pretty nice alternative. One in her position could follow me by picking either of the three buses I use, then use the <6> followed by a transfer to the Q44 at Parkchester. When compared to the 15-20 minute AM Rush headway of the Q50 LTD, the alternative commute offers much shorter wait times. The combined AM Rush headway of Bx12+SBS, Bx23 and Q50 is about 2 minutes, the <6> runs about every 5-6 minutes and the Q44 runs about every 4-5 minutes. This alternative commutes sounds so good that it really should be her primary commute with the Q50 as an alternative but there's always a catch. The thing is that the only free transfer allowed would be the one from the first bus to the subway which means that this pretty nice commute becomes a 2 fare ride. Who on earth would and should pay twice for a commute that's not even 35 minutes?

 

The MTA is able to get away which this because of the mentality that the vast majority of commuters have. They see commuting as simply a connet-the-dots game. In the case of my sister and the Q50, the Q50 stops at her point A and her point B so she feels content with confining herself to the Q50. I would not be comfortable confining my commute to a route or routes with shitty headways. Being honest, very few people outside of frequency conscious Jubai would have thought of an alternative commute to the one discussed here. To me a commute is about avoiding severe delays and finding a surefire quick way to get from point A to B even if that way is not the most direct (or best connector of the dots). 

 

I'll end on this note... The way in which most commuters interact with the transit network allows many of the flaws of it to persist and go unaddressed.

 

I feel like the point about more frequent services and transfers is a moot point. When I was really bored over the summer, I decided to make maps of all the boroughs' "frequent" services (which I defined as 15 minutes or better from 7AM-7PM Mon-Sat). With the exception of Staten Island, all of the boroughs have a grid (or multiple grids) of frequent services, and if you happen to have a destination on two points of a grid, you can get there in one transfer without waiting too long, assuming you didn't just miss your connecting bus. This is pretty great, considering that the purpose of the buses is to primarily feed into the subway - most other places wouldn't give a crap about connecting services and would run lots of hub-and-spoke routes.

 

The OP also mentions the Q50. This is actually a whole other problem - the MTA bus network has really crappy interborough links. There aren't really any buses going directly between multiple boroughs' transit hubs, and the interborough routes that DO exist usually barely dip their toes into the other borough (exceptions would be the M60 and Q44).

 

The other issue with "multiple modes" and lots of transfers is the Metrocard. The Metrocard only offers one transfer on a flat fare of 2.25 (soon to be 2.50), which gets you anywhere in the city. Theoretically, you could take a train from the Rockaways to Inwood and change to a Bx12 SBS to Orchard Beach, all for just 2.25, which is a pretty good deal if you ask me. More transfers would require more money, unless you had an unlimited or if there were a more generous transfer policy. With the MTA's huge structural deficit it's highly unlikely that they'd consider giving out more freebies.

 

Also transfers don't necessarily insulate you from delays - they might actually make you more delayed, if you miss a connecting bus and have to wait for the next one.

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I do not want all buses and subways to be that frequent. I like the frequencies for most bus routes the way they are now. However, I want to have options that combine to such frequency because waiting ultimately contradicts the goal of a commute. If I am trying to get somewhere without allowing excessive time (because I feel there are better ways to spend time) standing or sitting at one spot for longer than 5 minutes makes no sense at all.

 

I would rather spend that time walking to be honest. I am one that would go to serious lengths (taking 3-4 routes on one trip) to avoid a wait (at any one spot) longer than 5 minutes during the rush hour. I am more tolerant with waiting during off-peak hours for some reason and will entertain commutes I wouldn't during rush hour. 

 

The grand point here is WAITING= Unproductive use of time and TIMING A SPECIFIC MODE= Risky because of the fixed schedule the commuter takes on. Commuters who do either one or both should not unless it's absolutely necessary. I just stand to believe that in most cases it can easily be avoided but the commuter doesn't do so. 

Lol at this.... You're making Gorgor's point for him, dude....

 

Considering your main gripe in this discussion, apparently you don't like the frequencies for most bus routes the way they are now - If you're on here stating that standing or sitting at one spot longer than 5 minutes makes no sense at all..... Most bus routes don't come close to having 5 min. or less headways, nor should it.....

 

Timing a specific mode is just as risky as opting to hop from mode to mode to mode & expecting everything to work out like clockwork for each connection.....

 

You're backing yourself into a corner with these posts and are sounding more unrealistic & making less & less sense now.....

 

 

LOL.... Well you better not move away from a route that has frequencies higher than five minutes...

....or get used to doing a hell of a lot of walking!

 

 

The OP also mentions the Q50. This is actually a whole other problem - the MTA bus network has really crappy interborough links. There aren't really any buses going directly between multiple boroughs' transit hubs, and the interborough routes that DO exist usually barely dip their toes into the other borough (exceptions would be the M60 and Q44).

 

The other issue with "multiple modes" and lots of transfers is the Metrocard. The Metrocard only offers one transfer on a flat fare of 2.25 (soon to be 2.50), which gets you anywhere in the city. Theoretically, you could take a train from the Rockaways to Inwood and change to a Bx12 SBS to Orchard Beach, all for just 2.25, which is a pretty good deal if you ask me. More transfers would require more money, unless you had an unlimited or if there were a more generous transfer policy. With the MTA's huge structural deficit it's highly unlikely that they'd consider giving out more freebies.

 

Also transfers don't necessarily insulate you from delays - they might actually make you more delayed, if you miss a connecting bus and have to wait for the next one.

Yeah, our interborough local bus routes in that regard is another issue.... I've had discussions where ppl. have even brought up the amount of interborough routes lacking in our system...... I can agree that more routes like the Q32 & the Q35 (for example) are needed in the city's bus network.... Probably one of the main reasons that folks were high on wanting that MTA proposed Q94 "super limited" to come to fruition (the proposed Fordham Plz.-Flushing route)....

 

The issue with multiple modes is the fare structure, not necessarily the metrocard (I still get your point though)...

You pay the $2.25 base fare, you get a transfer.... Suffolk county for example, the base fare is 2.00, but for .25 more (the cost of a transfer out there), you get 2 transfers w/i a 2 hour span - the catch is that the services out there are much less frequent..... Anyway, although in a perfect world I'd like to see such a thing happen here in NYC (pay 1 fare, get 2 xfers), realistically I don't see something like that ever happening because of reasons you already mention.....

 

Sure enough though, the "deal" we got now is a hell of a lot better than say, a zone based fare structure......

 

As far as your last statement about transfers & delays, yeah, exactly.....

Edited by B35 via Church

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I feel like the point about more frequent services and transfers is a moot point. When I was really bored over the summer, I decided to make maps of all the boroughs' "frequent" services (which I defined as 15 minutes or better from 7AM-7PM Mon-Sat).

 

That was you who made those maps? If it was, I think the SI one is a little bit off, because the S46 is listed as a frequent route, but the S48 isn't, and for the most part, the S48 is more frequent. (And the S78 listed as frequent had me going WTF). Also, when combined, the S44 & S59 have more than 4 BPH off-peak (the S44 runs every 15 minutes for most of the day on its own). I mean, it's probably because of technicalities, but you might want to look into those.

 

These are the maps I'm referring to (the last few posts). (And I guess while you're changing those, the S79 doesn't do the Forest Hill Road detour anymore).  If you weren't the one who made thos maps, then ignore this post.

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Lol at this.... You're making Gorgor's point for him, dude....

 

Considering your main gripe in this discussion, apparently you don't like the frequencies for most bus routes the way they are now - If you're on here stating that standing or sitting at one spot longer than 5 minutes makes no sense at all..... Most bus routes don't come close to having 5 min. or less headways, nor should it.....

 

Timing a specific mode is just as risky as opting to hop from mode to mode to mode & expecting everything to work out like clockwork for each connection.....

 

You're backing yourself into a corner with these posts and are sounding more unrealistic & making less & less sense now.....

 

 

....or get used to doing a hell of a lot of walking!

 

 

Yeah, our interborough local bus routes in that regard is another issue.... I've had discussions where ppl. have even brought up the amount of interborough routes lacking in our system...... I can agree that more routes like the Q32 & the Q35 (for example) are needed in the city's bus network.... Probably one of the main reasons that folks were high on wanting that MTA proposed Q94 "super limited" to come to fruition (the proposed Fordham Plz.-Flushing route)....

 

The issue with multiple modes is the fare structure, not necessarily the metrocard (I still get your point though)...

You pay the $2.25 base fare, you get a transfer.... Suffolk county for example, the base fare is 2.00, but for .25 more (the cost of a transfer out there), you get 2 transfers w/i a 2 hour span - the catch is that the services out there are much less frequent..... Anyway, although in a perfect world I'd like to see such a thing happen here in NYC (pay 1 fare, get 2 xfers), realistically I don't see something like that ever happening because of reasons you already mention.....

 

Sure enough though, the "deal" we got now is a hell of a lot better than say, a zone based fare structure......

 

As far as your last statement about transfers & delays, yeah, exactly.....

The other issue with intraborough travel is via the local bus it can be slow and require numerous transfers... That's why I would travel via the express bus to get from Staten Island to say Sheepshead Bay. X1, X10 or X17 to the BM3 and that's it... 

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Several buses should run somewhat more frequent during different times of the day. From my perspective, here's what I think the Top candidates for more frequent service are for each time period in or near my area

 

Rush Hours: 

Q10: Whatever headway to 2 minute headways (that one is a hellhole rush hours

Q29: 7 minute to 2 minute headways ( it's that bad at rush hours, trust me)

Q38: 14 minute to 7 minute headways (that one, as well as the reverse peak service is picking up at a slight rate, this year the ridership boomed for some reason, and now buses are NRAT on the 38 rush hours

Q52: 12 to 8 minute headways on the segment

Q50: 15 to 10 minute headways

 

 

Midday

Q52: 30 minute to 16 minute headways

Q53:  8 minute to 16 minute headways

 

Evening

Q47: From 20 to 16 minute headways (you have a weekend- based line at around 10 PM (which is about 23 people))

 

Weekend

Q47: From 30 to 20 minutes

Q52: From 30 to 16 minute headways

Q53: From 8 MINUTE TO 16 minute headways

Q67: From 60 to 30 minute (if it ever takes over a portion of the Q38)

Edited by Q23 Central Terminal

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The other issue with intraborough travel is via the local bus it can be slow and require numerous transfers... That's why I would travel via the express bus to get from Staten Island to say Sheepshead Bay. X1, X10 or X17 to the BM3 and that's it... 

 

It being slow I can agree with....

 

It requiring numerous transfers though, I don't know about that (unless you're talking about someone using an interborough local bus & xferring to more than 1 subway afterwards)..... Can't think of an actual commute (well a common enough one anyway) where people are taking an interborough local route & making numerous xfers to other local buses.....

 

Like, give me a for instance, because I can't think of any off-top....

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It being slow I can agree with....

 

It requiring numerous transfers though, I don't know about that (unless you're talking about someone using an interborough local bus & xferring to more than 1 subway afterwards)..... Can't think of an actual commute (well a common enough one anyway) where people are taking an interborough local route & making numerous xfers to other local buses.....

 

Like, give me a for instance, because I can't think of any off-top....

Well how would you commute from Staten Island to say Sheepshead Bay via the local bus without making at least one transfer? Say the S79 to the B1, but you would still need to transfer again to the B4 or the B49 and it's a long commute...

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Several buses should run somewhat more frequent during different times of the day. From my perspective, here's what I think the Top candidates for more frequent service are for each time period in or near my area

 

Rush Hours: 

Q10: Whatever headway to 2 minute headways (that one is a hellhole rush hours

Q29: 7 minute to 2 minute headways ( it's that bad at rush hours, trust me)

Q38: 14 minute to 7 minute headways (that one, as well as the reverse peak service is picking up at a slight rate, this year the ridership boomed for some reason, and now buses are NRAT on the 38 rush hours

Q52: 12 to 8 minute headways on the segment

Q50: 15 to 10 minute headways

 

 

Midday

Q52: 30 minute to 16 minute headways

Q53:  8 minute to 16 minute headways

 

Evening

Q47: From 20 to 16 minute headways (you have a weekend- based line at around 10 PM (which is about 23 people))

 

Weekend

Q47: From 30 to 20 minutes

Q52: From 30 to 16 minute headways

Q53: From 8 MINUTE TO 16 minute headways

Q67: From 60 to 30 minute (if it ever takes over a portion of the Q38)

 

- I agree that the usage of the Q29 is grossly underrated.... but 2 minute headways, come on now......

The problem w/ the Q29 is that it's very delay prone on the upper half of the route (north of dry harbor/woodhaven); it's not a headway problem w/ that route....

 

- That's a headway increase you're suggesting for the Q53

 

 

Via Garibaldi 8's post

 

Well how would you commute from Staten Island to say Sheepshead Bay via the local bus without making at least one transfer?

Say the S79 to the B1, but you would still need to transfer again to the B4 or the B49 and it's a long commute...

 

Right, that's that particular commute, but I can't say that's all too common, to tell the truth.....

Most SI'ers that take the S53/79/93 do so to (unfortunately) xfer to the (R), and then do w/e it is they do after that point.....

 

What I'm getting at is, the issue you say that can exist w/ interborough local bus travel being that of requiring numerous transfers, is hardly an issue - it's not common to see someone taking more than 1 bus after taking an interborough route.... We can always pull on SI b/c our subway system doesn't pan out there; in other words, that's an issue w/ SI by default.....

 

This is a debate/discussion I got into w/ BrooklynBus a while back & really don't want to go down that road again... I don't see the 3 bus commute as being much of a problem in this city.....

Edited by B35 via Church

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That was you who made those maps? If it was, I think the SI one is a little bit off, because the S46 is listed as a frequent route, but the S48 isn't, and for the most part, the S48 is more frequent. (And the S78 listed as frequent had me going WTF). Also, when combined, the S44 & S59 have more than 4 BPH off-peak (the S44 runs every 15 minutes for most of the day on its own). I mean, it's probably because of technicalities, but you might want to look into those.

 

These are the maps I'm referring to (the last few posts). (And I guess while you're changing those, the S79 doesn't do the Forest Hill Road detour anymore).  If you weren't the one who made thos maps, then ignore this post.

 

Well, I did make those maps (and they were agonizing, to say the least).

If it uses outdated info, that's because I basically grabbed the bus maps available at Jamaica Station and used those as a basis. (On that note, the MTA really needs to distribute more of the recent maps throughout the stations and in the buses themselves, because most buses in Queens and most subway stations don't have a map with the Q52 on it, and other oddities. Jamaica Station's most recent maps mostly date back to early 2012-late 2011. But that's another complaint for another time.)

If the things listed as frequent are also wrong, that's partially because of the lack of easily available recent paper maps in my area, and partially because I didn't bother looking at the actual schedules and used the service notes, of which I put a reasonable amount of faith in. (Making the maps was painful enough, what with schoolwork and all, and going through every schedule would take a very long time.)

 

Several buses should run somewhat more frequent during different times of the day. From my perspective, here's what I think the Top candidates for more frequent service are for each time period in or near my area

 

Rush Hours: 

Q10: Whatever headway to 2 minute headways (that one is a hellhole rush hours

Q29: 7 minute to 2 minute headways ( it's that bad at rush hours, trust me)

Q38: 14 minute to 7 minute headways (that one, as well as the reverse peak service is picking up at a slight rate, this year the ridership boomed for some reason, and now buses are NRAT on the 38 rush hours

Q52: 12 to 8 minute headways on the segment

Q50: 15 to 10 minute headways

 

 

Midday

Q52: 30 minute to 16 minute headways

Q53:  8 minute to 16 minute headways

 

Evening

Q47: From 20 to 16 minute headways (you have a weekend- based line at around 10 PM (which is about 23 people))

 

Weekend

Q47: From 30 to 20 minutes

Q52: From 30 to 16 minute headways

Q53: From 8 MINUTE TO 16 minute headways

Q67: From 60 to 30 minute (if it ever takes over a portion of the Q38)

 

Like someone said earlier, that's a headway decrease for the 52/53.

 

During peak hours, the Q46 and Q43 definitely need headway increases (bus lines should not wrap around a city block, ideally),

Also, IMO the Q19 should be extended along the M60 route and given 15 minute headways during the peak and 20 minutes offpeak, Mon-Sat, to see if Flushing-125th St would generate additional ridership.

 

It being slow I can agree with....

 

It requiring numerous transfers though, I don't know about that (unless you're talking about someone using an interborough local bus & xferring to more than 1 subway afterwards)..... Can't think of an actual commute (well a common enough one anyway) where people are taking an interborough local route & making numerous xfers to other local buses.....

 

Like, give me a for instance, because I can't think of any off-top....

 

Anything not along the Q44 in the Bronx to anything not along the Q44 in Queens. The Q50 is even less useful, because a lot of Queens isn't one bus away from Flushing. Connections between Flushing or Jamaica, and Downtown Brooklyn, are also pretty difficult if you're trying to avoid Manhattan (which is a legitimate concern, because Manhattan creates an unnecessary, crowded detour and the G has poor connections to non-IND lines).

 

SI has extremely crappy connections to the rest of the boroughs, but SI also has what a lot of non-SI residents would consider "crappy" service levels anyways, so that's a moot point.

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Well, I did make those maps (and they were agonizing, to say the least).

If it uses outdated info, that's because I basically grabbed the bus maps available at Jamaica Station and used those as a basis. (On that note, the MTA really needs to distribute more of the recent maps throughout the stations and in the buses themselves, because most buses in Queens and most subway stations don't have a map with the Q52 on it, and other oddities. Jamaica Station's most recent maps mostly date back to early 2012-late 2011. But that's another complaint for another time.)

If the things listed as frequent are also wrong, that's partially because of the lack of easily available recent paper maps in my area, and partially because I didn't bother looking at the actual schedules and used the service notes, of which I put a reasonable amount of faith in. (Making the maps was painful enough, what with schoolwork and all, and going through every schedule would take a very long time.)

 

Cool, no problem. Well, the effort is appreciateed.

 

The S48 is only less frequent than the S46 Saturday mornings, but with the S46, service leaving St. George doesn't become every 15 minutes until 9AM, but I guess you could leave it on there. It still looks weird with the S48 not being on there, though.

 

In any case, with the S78, the frequent portion is only east of Richmond Avenue. On weekends, half the buses short-turn at Richmond Avenue coming from St. George.

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Right, that's that particular commute, but I can't say that's all too common, to tell the truth.....

Most SI'ers that take the S53/79/93 do so to (unfortunately) xfer to the (R), and then do w/e it is they do after that point.....

 

What I'm getting at is, the issue you say that can exist w/ interborough local bus travel being that of requiring numerous transfers, is hardly an issue - it's not common to see someone taking more than 1 bus after taking an interborough route.... We can always pull on SI b/c our subway system doesn't pan out there; in other words, that's an issue w/ SI by default.....

 

This is a debate/discussion I got into w/ BrooklynBus a while back & really don't want to go down that road again... I don't see the 3 bus commute as being much of a problem in this city.....

lol... I wasn't even thinking about a 3 bus commute, but rather one that involved multiple transfers of some sort... Technically you could throw Inwood into that as well for someone who needs East Side access above Grand Central.  That would involve a few transfers.

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lol... I wasn't even thinking about a 3 bus commute, but rather one that involved multiple transfers of some sort... Technically you could throw Inwood into that as well for someone who needs East Side access above Grand Central.  That would involve a few transfers.

 

Inwood to the East Side only requires 2 transfers...

 

M100 + (M1/M2/M3 for 5 Av) (M101/M102/M103 for Lex) (M15 for 2nd)

 

And anyone traveling from Inwood to the East Side would definitely opt to take the subway or M98.

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Inwood to the East Side only requires 2 transfers...

 

M100 + (M1/M2/M3 for 5 Av) (M101/M102/M103 for Lex) (M15 for 2nd)

 

And anyone traveling from Inwood to the East Side would definitely opt to take the subway or M98.

Assuming you're near the M100....

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Assuming you're near the M100....

 

...which is pretty much everybody in Inwood, since the M100 runs up the full length of Broadway, right through the middle of the neighborhood.

 

It seems like most of the hills are south of Fort Tryon Park, so that shouldn't be much of an issue in Inwood. (Plus, if you can't make it to the M100, that means you can't make it to any mode of transit).

 

Plus, there's the subway to a crosstown bus. If you don't want to take the (A) to the (B)(C) to a crosstown bus (because the crosstown bus doesn't stop at an express station on the (A)), you could take the (1) to a crosstown bus, or even the Bx12 to the (4).

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I feel like the point about more frequent services and transfers is a moot point. When I was really bored over the summer, I decided to make maps of all the boroughs' "frequent" services (which I defined as 15 minutes or better from 7AM-7PM Mon-Sat). With the exception of Staten Island, all of the boroughs have a grid (or multiple grids) of frequent services, and if you happen to have a destination on two points of a grid, you can get there in one transfer without waiting too long, assuming you didn't just miss your connecting bus. This is pretty great, considering that the purpose of the buses is to primarily feed into the subway - most other places wouldn't give a crap about connecting services and would run lots of hub-and-spoke routes.

 

The OP also mentions the Q50. This is actually a whole other problem - the MTA bus network has really crappy interborough links. There aren't really any buses going directly between multiple boroughs' transit hubs, and the interborough routes that DO exist usually barely dip their toes into the other borough (exceptions would be the M60 and Q44).

 

The other issue with "multiple modes" and lots of transfers is the Metrocard. The Metrocard only offers one transfer on a flat fare of 2.25 (soon to be 2.50), which gets you anywhere in the city. Theoretically, you could take a train from the Rockaways to Inwood and change to a Bx12 SBS to Orchard Beach, all for just 2.25, which is a pretty good deal if you ask me. More transfers would require more money, unless you had an unlimited or if there were a more generous transfer policy. With the MTA's huge structural deficit it's highly unlikely that they'd consider giving out more freebies.

 

Also transfers don't necessarily insulate you from delays - they might actually make you more delayed, if you miss a connecting bus and have to wait for the next one.

 

Really now I suggested numerous routes to improve interborough travel yet they get brushed off CMON.  Plus we have routes like that called express buses!!! BUT interborough travel to and from outerboroughs other than manhattan is a chore. Brooklyn to queens has good service via the subway. Bronx to queens has crappy service and people on here have the nerve to shoot down a clearview route that can cut travel times between the bronx and queens and even nassau by 30+ minutes PLZ!!! Not directed at you directly though.

The other issue with intraborough travel is via the local bus it can be slow and require numerous transfers... That's why I would travel via the express bus to get from Staten Island to say Sheepshead Bay. X1, X10 or X17 to the BM3 and that's it... 

 

Damn and yet I present solutions that will solve that problem and I am called crazy BS. SI needs a CI route via the belt end of story. Brooklynbus' B22 line would turn a multiple transfer ordeal into a simple 2 bus quick commute. That is just wrong seriously BM3 to X17 CMON MAN. I would use (D) to B1 to S79 or X17 Or Northbound (N) to southbound (R) for x17/S79 /S53.

Well, I did make those maps (and they were agonizing, to say the least).

If it uses outdated info, that's because I basically grabbed the bus maps available at Jamaica Station and used those as a basis. (On that note, the MTA really needs to distribute more of the recent maps throughout the stations and in the buses themselves, because most buses in Queens and most subway stations don't have a map with the Q52 on it, and other oddities. Jamaica Station's most recent maps mostly date back to early 2012-late 2011. But that's another complaint for another time.)

If the things listed as frequent are also wrong, that's partially because of the lack of easily available recent paper maps in my area, and partially because I didn't bother looking at the actual schedules and used the service notes, of which I put a reasonable amount of faith in. (Making the maps was painful enough, what with schoolwork and all, and going through every schedule would take a very long time.)

 

 

Like someone said earlier, that's a headway decrease for the 52/53.

 

During peak hours, the Q46 and Q43 definitely need headway increases (bus lines should not wrap around a city block, ideally),

Also, IMO the Q19 should be extended along the M60 route and given 15 minute headways during the peak and 20 minutes offpeak, Mon-Sat, to see if Flushing-125th St would generate additional ridership.

 

 

Anything not along the Q44 in the Bronx to anything not along the Q44 in Queens. The Q50 is even less useful, because a lot of Queens isn't one bus away from Flushing. Connections between Flushing or Jamaica, and Downtown Brooklyn, are also pretty difficult if you're trying to avoid Manhattan (which is a legitimate concern, because Manhattan creates an unnecessary, crowded detour and the G has poor connections to non-IND lines).NOT TRUE they are very easy from jamaica to brooklyn.

 

SI has extremely crappy connections to the rest of the boroughs, but SI also has what a lot of non-SI residents would consider "crappy" service levels anyways, so that's a moot point.

Err If you do that your better off making some M60s or that bronx LGA route express to LGA during airport hours on some trips or every other trip. The Bronx to LGA route will make up for lost service on astoria blvd anyway. Besides you do have the (J) to the (A) for queens to downtown brooklyn remember that connections to downtown brooklyn from queens are NOT as hard as you make it out to be it's actually very easy. Use either the 2 subway lines like (J) to the (A) or if timed right LIRR. But since LIRR service there sucks I'd stick with (J) to broadway jct for an easy link to the (A). Trust me the connections to downtown brooklyn are there use them.

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