Adding SBS to the M14A/D

[Cait Sith]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Via Garibaldi 8" data-cid="633781" data-time="1358461972"><p>

They removed at least one stop between 5th & Madison that I recall, but I agree... I see no need to remove any stops on the M14... Just allow folks to board quicker and that would certainly help.</p></blockquote>

 

Madison & Lex got removed from the M34.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Via Garibaldi 8" data-cid="633781" data-time="1358461972"><p>

They removed at least one stop between 5th & Madison that I recall, but I agree... I see no need to remove any stops on the M14... Just allow folks to board quicker and that would certainly help.</p></blockquote>

 

Madison & Lex got removed from the M34.

Ah Lex too... Well I've used it over there from the BxM1 and quite frankly I didn't notice the difference in terms of walking, but with the M14 it's a different story. Blocks are longer than the M34 so that's why removing stops would be more difficult/less practical.

[Vistausss]

They could remove some stops for SBS that aren't used as much but it has to be *proven* that they aren't used as much. But in general, it's not necessary to remove stops. SBS also helps for other things than just make the trip faster. In fact, making the trip faster isn't really the main factor for making a line SBS unless it's a crowded area ofc. The main point is is that's it's modern, gets less hold ups at bus stops and provides for some other modern things (like a bus lane for example).

[Far Rock Depot]

@VG8 fare beating wont be limited to the ends of the route. Go to Union Square. That spot alone will be Fare beating central. And you can talk about speeding up boarding all you want. But it wont. People already hold up boarding tryin to catch the bus before it pulls off, asking the driver "Is this the A or D" and so on. trust me, its extremely common on the 14.

 

And as Cait-once again beat me to it-stated, traffic is always the number one reason. SBS wont solve the traffic problem. If it were up to most of you, SBS would be on the majority of the routes in NYC. And kiss farebox revenue goodbye. 

 

It may look good on paper, but when implemented in a real world scenario, SBS wont make a difference.

The Bx12 was a major artery across the Bronx and has a local supplement and with no crosstown subway

The M15 is the second most used route in the US and has a local supplement and the East side needed an alternative to the Lex

The M34 travels across one of the most densely used streets from river to river hitting the majority of popular destinations and is the combination of 2 routes. ( and on average runs faster than the repeat pokie award winner-the M42-which DIDnt get SBS. Explain that.

The S79 is a major artery along the south shore of SI and connects to a subway in Brooklyn ( and which many here on the forums refuse to acknowledge it as SBS for lack of machines at stops except at the subway station.

The B44 and Bx41 routes are next due to being major arteries with high ridership and local supplements.

 

i said it before and ill say it again-bus bunching and slow speeds do NOT make a route a definite candidate for SBS, nor any of its features. 

 

Show me how it will improve the M14 without fare beating and with a noticeable increase in trip time. How traffic will be lessened, etc.....

Theres no room for a bus lane btw. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

@VG8 fare beating wont be limited to the ends of the route. Go to Union Square. That spot alone will be Fare beating central. And you can talk about speeding up boarding all you want. But it wont. People already hold up boarding tryin to catch the bus before it pulls off, asking the driver "Is this the A or D" and so on. trust me, its extremely common on the 14.

 

And as Cait-once again beat me to it-stated, traffic is always the number one reason. SBS wont solve the traffic problem. If it were up to most of you, SBS would be on the majority of the routes in NYC. And kiss farebox revenue goodbye. 

 

It may look good on paper, but when implemented in a real world scenario, SBS wont make a difference.

The Bx12 was a major artery across the Bronx and has a local supplement and with no crosstown subway

The M15 is the second most used route in the US and has a local supplement and the East side needed an alternative to the Lex

The M34 travels across one of the most densely used streets from river to river hitting the majority of popular destinations and is the combination of 2 routes. ( and on average runs faster than the repeat pokie award winner-the M42-which DIDnt get SBS. Explain that.

The S79 is a major artery along the south shore of SI and connects to a subway in Brooklyn ( and which many here on the forums refuse to acknowledge it as SBS for lack of machines at stops except at the subway station.

The B44 and Bx41 routes are next due to being major arteries with high ridership and local supplements.

 

i said it before and ill say it again-bus bunching and slow speeds do NOT make a route a definite candidate for SBS, nor any of its features. 

 

Show me how it will improve the M14 without fare beating and with a noticeable increase in trip time. How traffic will be lessened, etc.....

Theres no room for a bus lane btw. 

Oh come on with the farebeating crappola.  If anyone is against farebeating I'm the #1 person against it!! As I said before, lack of enforcement is the problem.  If the Eagle team were out more there would be less farebeating.  Listen Europe has had great success with its bus system because they've had 3 door buses way before we got them here and they have multiple places on the bus where you can just board through any door (regardless of what type of bus it is), stamp your ticket and have a seat.  Here we have one farebox and everyone must use one farebox to pay and one door to enter.  So 18th century... Our buses are slow because we're behind with the times!  Hell parts of Europe that I traveled to already had a tracking system in place going back to the early 2000s! We're just getting Bus Time here in NYC... Really sad.

[Grand Concourse]

For these crosstown routes, why not set up drop off and pick up spots? The bus isn't moving far anyway and at least you can minimize those trying to board the rear segment of the bus (when ppl are holding the back doors open) while the bus is picking up riders. Obviously, can't do this on every stop, but maybe do this on the subway transfer points. No worries about the machines and no need to have a 'full time' eagle team on watch for all the stops or a line that doesn't really need SBS.

[qjtransitmaster]

Agreed. Whenever I see an M8 I initially assume it is an OOS bus because it is so infrequent and usually empty.

 

The M14's I see are usually packed, but I think that installing the SBS equipment would be tough because you have all of those sketchy sidewalk vendors all across 14th St, plus I see a lot of, ummm, questionable behavior go down there and I suspect the machines would get broken pretty often. Which is too bad, because I do think that route could use SBS, especially since it already has artics. 

M8 is it as empty as M20 on 8th ave?   M14 needs well something but I don't think anything can be done.

[Far Rock Depot]

Oh come on with the farebeating crappola.  If anyone is against farebeating I'm the #1 person against it!! As I said before, lack of enforcement is the problem.  If the Eagle team were out more there would be less farebeating.  Listen Europe has had great success with its bus system because they've had 3 door buses way before we got them here and they have multiple places on the bus where you can just board through any door (regardless of what type of bus it is), stamp your ticket and have a seat.  Here we have one farebox and everyone must use one farebox to pay and one door to enter.  So 18th century... Our buses are slow because we're behind with the times!  Hell parts of Europe that I traveled to already had a tracking system in place going back to the early 2000s! We're just getting Bus Time here in NYC... Really sad.

Alll the points ive made....and all you can argue is fare beating??? No suggestions, or ideas. Just that.  Innovative.

 

For these crosstown routes, why not set up drop off and pick up spots? The bus isn't moving far anyway and at least you can minimize those trying to board the rear segment of the bus (when ppl are holding the back doors open) while the bus is picking up riders. Obviously, can't do this on every stop, but maybe do this on the subway transfer points. No worries about the machines and no need to have a 'full time' eagle team on watch for all the stops or a line that doesn't really need SBS.

See, thats thinking! Sort of like what the Q44 does in flushing at the subway station. But the Q44 doesnt really go thru what the M14 does and thats bunching. But if the drop off/ pick up works, bunching may get reduced.

Dont need anything SBS related and doesnt have to be at every stop. This is a logical idea stepping in the right direction!

Maybe even separate M14A and M14D stops at Irving Place E/B? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Alll the points ive made....and all you can argue is fare beating??? No suggestions, or ideas. Just that.  Innovative.

That's because the only thing I suggested for the M14 was quicker boarding.  I don't think the route needs full SBS service nor do any of the stops need to be removed.  I've seen how quicker boarding can work. The problem is that here B/Os need to be instructed to NOT hold the damn bus and keep it moving once they pick up.  The M14 runs frequent enough not to hold up buses. I would support shutting down sections of 14th street and making them for buses only like they've considered on 34th street.  Make all deliveres be done at night to lessen traffic along 14th overall and give the M14 signal priority.  In short NUMEROUS things would have to be done to help make the M14 and other crosstown routes be quicker.  I would also implement congestion pricing, but that's another topic.  If people so need to drive into the city then make them pay for it.  

[Far Rock Depot]

But thats the thing. 14th Street is a major artery. They can get away with shutting down 34th st but 14th st( around union Square, where most of the traffic problems are, will make traffic around the area worse. 34th st is mostly congested with buses. 14th street is congestes with all kinds of traffic and a lot of the paralleled streets do not go all the way crosstown. 34th has that option.  And yeah, the 14's are scheduled to run frequent, but thats rarely the case. The large majority of the time, buses run as follows: D-D-A-D-D-A. On averge, they run D-D-A-large gap-D-D-gap-D-A-D-gap-D-D-A. and thats Before they reach Union Sq. 

Now that i think about it......

Dispatchers are seriously needed along the route. 

Both west end terminals, 8th Ave and Irving Pl are four spots where they can be posted. Regulate their departure times at the terminals(cause its rare they leave on time), 8th ave to maintain regular intervals and scheduled order, And Irving Place, Which IMHO it the 'hot spot' letting drivers know when to leave and let passengers know theres another bus coming which, if the first dispatchers do their job, wont be long of a wait. Then its up to the traffic conditions. Which signal priority wont help that much, because 7th Ave thru 1st ave are heavy with traffic N/B and S/B and cant really be stopped everytime a 14 comes along. 

 

I do agree with with on the congestion pricing. And yeah, thats a whole other topic. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But thats the thing. 14th Street is a major artery. They can get away with shutting down 34th st but 14th st( around union Square, where most of the traffic problems are, will make traffic around the area worse. 34th st is mostly congested with buses. 14th street is congestes with all kinds of traffic and a lot of the paralleled streets do not go all the way crosstown. 34th has that option.  And yeah, the 14's are scheduled to run frequent, but thats rarely the case. The large majority of the time, buses run as follows: D-D-A-D-D-A. On averge, they run D-D-A-large gap-D-D-gap-D-A-D-gap-D-D-A. and thats Before they reach Union Sq. 

Now that i think about it......

Dispatchers are seriously needed along the route. 

Both west end terminals, 8th Ave and Irving Pl are four spots where they can be posted. Regulate their departure times at the terminals(cause its rare they leave on time), 8th ave to maintain regular intervals and scheduled order, And Irving Place, Which IMHO it the 'hot spot' letting drivers know when to leave and let passengers know theres another bus coming which, if the first dispatchers do their job, wont be long of a wait. Then its up to the traffic conditions. Which signal priority wont help that much, because 7th Ave thru 1st ave are heavy with traffic N/B and S/B and cant really be stopped everytime a 14 comes along. 

 

I do agree with with on the congestion pricing. And yeah, thats a whole other topic. 

I would also consider ensuring that all stops are not before traffic lights either, which I think is the case for just about all of the stops with a few exceptions this way they can pull out once they pick up.  As for 14th street parts of it could be made for cabs and buses only.  A lot of the congestion is from delivery trucks or personal vehicles in some cases double parking and clogging up traffic.  That's a huge problem on Lexington Ave for example.  They've usually got cops parked right there around Union Sq.  Have traffic cops come out and ticket any vehicles double parked.

[Far Rock Depot]

IIRC, Between 8th and Ave A e/b, theres only 4 stops before the light-5th ave, Union Sq, Irving Pl and Ave A. Ave A is for both buses to stop before the split, and 5th because of building construction. Union Sq is because that block is pretty short and Irving takes up mostly all of that block. 

[Quill Depot]

This is how Irving Place is a packed stop.

 

People leave the Union Square Complex, at the 4th Ave-14th Street, Southeast Corner exit. When they hit the stairs they take a left and walk to Irving. That exit has turnstiles, not HEET's like the other, plus it is easier to get to directly off Lex.

[Far Rock Depot]

Its not just from the lex. The Bway line. Its from the best buy, the movie theater, the burlington. Whole Foods. The park. Irving Pl has always been a popular stop. Its larger than the one at Burlington. And not many people know about the stop at Burlington. 

[Quill Depot]

These should really create "SBS Accessible Stops", where you pay, then board. No lanes tho. Irving Place would be a great trial of it.

[Turbo19]

Any current and future SBS should also have have a local supplement, including the M34 & S79.

[Far Rock Depot]

"SBS accessible stops"? 

 

wash. rinse. repeat. 

[checkmatechamp13]

Any current and future SBS should also have have a local supplement, including the M34 & S79.

 

 Personally, I don't think it should.

 

With the M34, what stops would the local supplement realistically make that the +SBS+ version wouldn't? As for the S79, well, there's already the S59 & S78, so while there isn't an "official" local, effectively, 95% of the local stops are covered (the exception being one in each direction on Narrows Road, and a couple of stops in Brooklyn. I don't think there's any local stops on Steuben Street, but if there are, you can throw them in as well). But I do think that it's stupid that the +SBS+ buses run well into the night, when during the later hours, the local service is infrequent, and the amount of people on board the S79s that benefit from the quicker trip isn't that many.

 

I mean, I have proposed a modified local (that S79A I've mentioned before), but I wouldn't consider it 100% necessary, as far the the +SBS+ is concerned. The main purpose was for Giffords Lane riders. The local riders on Hylan that benefit are just a (large) added bonus.

[Turbo19]

 

 Personally, I don't think it should.

 

With the M34, what stops would the local supplement realistically make that the +SBS+ version wouldn't? As for the S79, well, there's already the S59 & S78, so while there isn't an "official" local, effectively, 95% of the local stops are covered (the exception being one in each direction on Narrows Road, and a couple of stops in Brooklyn. I don't think there's any local stops on Steuben Street, but if there are, you can throw them in as well). But I do think that it's stupid that the +SBS+ buses run well into the night, when during the later hours, the local service is infrequent, and the amount of people on board the S79s that benefit from the quicker trip isn't that many.

 

I mean, I have proposed a modified local (that S79A I've mentioned before), but I wouldn't consider it 100% necessary, as far the the +SBS+ is concerned. The main purpose was for Giffords Lane riders. The local riders on Hylan that benefit are just a (large) added bonus.

Well personally I feel that riders of both corridors should have the option to choose. When people propose to add SBS to the B44, B46, and now the M14, or when they propose to replace a current limited with SBS, it seems as if not only do they want to replace the limited (if there is one) but they also want to replace local service on the route in question as well.

[checkmatechamp13]

Well personally I feel that riders of both corridors should have the option to choose. When people propose to add SBS to the B44, B46, and now the M14, or when they propose to replace a current limited with SBS, it seems as if not only do they want to replace the limited (if there is one) but they also want to replace local service on the route in question as well.

 

I don't think people are really advocating for SBS (basically, proof-of-payment) on the local B44 & B46.

 

On the crosstowns, well, it's basically an all-or-nothing deal. I mean, there's really no local on a crosstown by nature.

[Grand Concourse]

Yup, the closest to an 'express'/limited is if the buses are falling behind schedule and have to skip some stops to close the gap.

[MHV9218]

^ Or you make a friend at Quill and hitch a ride on the deadhead lol. Gets me across town nice and fast!

[Grand Concourse]

Lol, is that even allowed? I gotta meet up with the folks here that works at FB lol.

[AndrewJC]

You know how long of a passage that is????

 

No passage necessary. The east end of the station is at Avenue A.