Rebuilding South Ferry

[R32 3838]

what they should do is just add 3-4 more Rs, they are gonna have to do something, they just took 4 R32s from ENY and placed them back on the active roster one pair is at CI and the other is at 207th on the (3370/1), so anything can happen (not saying they will go back to the R, just an example), just short turn selected R's at whitehal

[Fresh Pond]

What do the R32s have to do with this thread...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

what they should do is just add 3-4 more Rs, they are gonna have to do something, they just took 4 R32s from ENY and placed them back on the active roster one pair is at CI and the other is at 207th on the (3370/1), so anything can happen (not saying they will go back to the R, just an example), just short turn selected R's at whitehal

Do they have enough cars to add three to four more 's that can short-turn at Whitehall?

[RollOver]

Wouldn't this just add more delays on the Broadway Line?

 

The simple solution I'll say is to continue the transfers or walk from Rector Street to South Ferry. That's all.

[Quill Depot]

Uh, people have jobs and lives, and we can't always allow ourselves the extra time. Yes, in an ideal world, we could all leave earlier and not have to worry. But that's not the case.

 

In any case, me personally, in that situation, I'd suck it up and do the walk, because with the amount of time to go through the passageways and wait for the second train, it would probably be quicker to walk the extra distance. Thankfully, since the Hurricane, most of my destinations have been on the East Side anyway, so I can just take the like normal.

 

Adaptation is something excellent for humans... some fail to use it or are afraid of it's beauty.

[AndrewJC]

1. you can't extend the loop since the switches to/from the inner loop are right there outside the station

 

Not true. A ten car train stopped at the old South Ferry loop station clears the switches at both ends. (And even if that weren't the case, what difference would it make?)

 

South Ferry Loop can not be made ADA compliant. Therefore it can not reopen. 

 

Are you sure about that? There's been a lot of conjecture about this, but I'm not convinced that ADA doesn't allow a preexisting station to be closed and then reopened. What about Cortlandt Street on the R, which was closed then reopened then reclosed then reopened? It's not ADA compliant.

 

They should add a cross-under at rector and drop the station. It doesn't seem worth the money.

 

Why does it need a cross-under? And what do you mean by "drop the station"?

 

It's not a block further from Bowling Green, I've walked the distance before. IMO, Bowling Green is a lot more convenient and faster especially if folks have to connect to the ferry.

 

It's about one long block, or four minutes, from the south exit at Rector to the south exit (old headhouse) at Bowling Green, or a similar distance to the entrance by the Custom House. The total walk to the ferry terminal is eight minutes via Whitehall.

 

If you're coming from the 4/5, then of course Bowling Green is a better bet. But if you're already on the 1 train, how are you going to get to the 4/5? If it involves transferring at Fulton from the 2/3, you'll be walking a greater distance in the station than you would have walked from Rector to Bowling Green - and you'll be waiting for two extra trains and making three additional stops.

 

I really think that's something worth considering along with a connection to the at its Rector St stop. The two Rector St stations are very close to each other and I wonder why a transfer between the and at Rector wasn't seriously considered in the first place.

 

A so-called "Rector connector" was very much on the table around 2002. Once it was decided to link the 1 and R at South Ferry, it was taken off the table.

 

How popular was the South Ferry 1-R transfer? It was nice to have, but I frankly never saw much use for it.

 

Well if thats the case, why do you think people cram over to the , and ? So they can ensure themselves the connection!

 

Some folks dont think the same way as us. It also has to do with the timing, the and is almost perfectly timed with the ferry with two-five minutes to spare. I've heard people complain about missing their connection to the ferry from the . While the and are inevitably prone to delays, the connection is still very closely timed

 

Some former 1 riders are finding that other routes get them to the ferry faster or more easily. Others are taking the 1 to Rector and walking. The 4 and 5 were crowded long before Sandy, and the R isn't crowded now.

 

There is no schedule coordination whatsoever between the subway and the ferry.

 

Do they have enough cars to add three to four more 's that can short-turn at Whitehall?

 

There is no need for more R's. If loads on the R were to double, they would still not be overcrowded at Whitehall to/from the north.

[Cait Sith]

It's about one long block, or four minutes, from the south exit at Rector to the south exit (old headhouse) at Bowling Green, or a similar distance to the entrance by the Custom House. The total walk to the ferry terminal is eight minutes via Whitehall.

 

If you're coming from the 4/5, then of course Bowling Green is a better bet. But if you're already on the 1 train, how are you going to get to the 4/5? If it involves transferring at Fulton from the 2/3, you'll be walking a greater distance in the station than you would have walked from Rector to Bowling Green - and you'll be waiting for two extra trains and making three additional stops.

 

Some former 1 riders are finding that other routes get them to the ferry faster or more easily. Others are taking the 1 to Rector and walking. The 4 and 5 were crowded long before Sandy, and the R isn't crowded now.

 

There is no schedule coordination whatsoever between the subway and the ferry.

 

A few issues with your post.

 

No one gets out at the Whitehall entrance to walk to the ferry, the mass get out either at the Battery Park entrance or across from that entrance to catch the ferry. Nice observation, not sure what you were trying to prove though.....

 

And not only do you break down my posts, you inadvertently answered your own questions at the same time from the same posts you didn't acknowledge.

 

As for that last one, I never said anything about that, all I said was that taking the and was a better option because in most cases, it gets there and its closely timed to the ferry depending on when you get there. I never said there was any coordination with the and and the ferry.....

 

And being a rider on the and almost every day and a frequent rider of the ferry, I would know this.

 

 

[AndrewJC]

A few issues with your post.

 

No one gets out at the Whitehall entrance to walk to the ferry, the mass get out either at the Battery Park entrance or across from that entrance to catch the ferry. Nice observation, not sure what you were trying to prove though.....

 

And not only do you break down my posts, you inadvertently answered your own questions at the same time from the same posts you didn't acknowledge.

 

As for that last one, I never said anything about that, all I said was that taking the and was a better option because in most cases, it gets there and its closely timed to the ferry depending on when you get there. I never said there was any coordination with the and and the ferry.....

 

And being a rider on the and almost every day and a frequent rider of the ferry, I would know this.

 

Southbound 4/5 riders mostly use the headhouse in Battery Park. Northbound 4/5 riders mostly use the exit by the Custom House. But either one is a four-minute walk from Rector, so it doesn't really matter.

 

What didn't I acknowledge?

 

If your 4 or 5 train gets you to Bowling Green just in time to catch a ferry, that's good luck, not deliberate timing. The 4/5 is a great option if you're coming from the East Side, but the 1 is probably a better option from the West Village or Upper West Side.

[Wallyhorse]

While the ADA requirements are there, I don't think that act ever could have considered the possibility of what happened with South Ferry and the fact a replacement, ADA-Compliant station was severely damaged by a "Superstorm" like Sandy actually did, putting the possibility of re-opening an older, non-compliant station like old SF and putting it back into serivice after it was closed because no one could have anticipated an unprecedented storm like Sandy causing that much damage at the time the ADA act became law.  While the law does need to be enforced as a rule, this is where the law needs to be modified to accommodate special situations like that that could never have been foreseeable when the ADA act was enacted.  Again, given WHY it would be done, I would think (and especially if like I would have done if I were Cuomo ordering old SF reopened as quickly as possible) the would get a waiver on ADA requirements to reopen old SF given the extremely unique circumstances in this case.

 

I would not be surprised to see political pressure on the to re-open old SF soon.

 

 

I would be shocked if that happens.

I would not at all be surprised if we soon see pressure to do so.  I suspect people on Staten Island, who already have had to deal with more than others because of Sandy likely are already putting pressure on the pols wanting the old SF reopened just so they don't have to walk to Rector/Bowling Green, etc.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I actually remember a very funny story... Years ago I was heading back to the Island via the Ferry and I get out of the subway and it's late and I'm like sh*t I can't run down there fast enough, so there was a taxi right there and I jumped in and had him race down the few blocks, paid him the few bucks I owed for the short ride and made the ferry. I did NOT want to wait an hour for the next one. Something I don't miss, that's for sure.  Pathetic that they're still running the same old service from years ago for most of the schedule, but I can tell you one thing... Dealing with that ferry can be extremely stressful, hence another reason so many folks opt for the express bus.

[Cait Sith]

Southbound 4/5 riders mostly use the headhouse in Battery Park. Northbound 4/5 riders mostly use the exit by the Custom House. But either one is a four-minute walk from Rector, so it doesn't really matter.

 

What didn't I acknowledge?

 

If your 4 or 5 train gets you to Bowling Green just in time to catch a ferry, that's good luck, not deliberate timing. The 4/5 is a great option if you're coming from the East Side, but the 1 is probably a better option from the West Village or Upper West Side.

 

The other posts I made!

[Nova RTS 9147]

I would not at all be surprised if we soon see pressure to do so.  I suspect people on Staten Island, who already have had to deal with more than others because of Sandy likely are already putting pressure on the pols wanting the old SF reopened just so they don't have to walk to Rector/Bowling Green, etc.

 

Given that no Staten Island politician has made any noise about this (and it doesnt take much for SI pols to make noise) I highly doubt what you're saying is accurate.  Staten Islanders already know how to get to the and anyone who doesn't want to walk the extra four blocks will alter their travel route to take that line.

 

In summation, the South Ferry loop will never see passenger service again.  Get over it!

[Snowblock]

Damn, what is it with you this week? People have posted the bullets many times before, why is it that it bothers you now?

 

No, I agree with him. The overuse of bullets are one of the reasons I can't read this site.

 

In summation, the South Ferry loop will never see passenger service again.  Get over it!

 

Thank you, this is the smartest post in this whole thread. THE SOUTH FERRY LOOP IS *NEVER NEVER NEVER* GOING TO REOPEN AS A PASSENGER STATION.

[AndrewJC]

The other posts I made!

 

I respond to points that I have responses to. I don't respond to everything that's posted. Don't take it personally. Is there a particular post of yours that I didn't respond to that you think I'd be particularly interested in? Perhaps I overlooked it.

[realizm]

 

I would not at all be surprised if we soon see pressure to do so.  I suspect people on Staten Island, who already have had to deal with more than others because of Sandy likely are already putting pressure on the pols wanting the old SF reopened just so they don't have to walk to Rector/Bowling Green, etc.

 

Source? Link?

 

No, I agree with him. The overuse of bullets are one of the reasons I can't read this site.

 

 

 

Thank you, this is the smartest post in this whole thread. THE SOUTH FERRY LOOP IS *NEVER NEVER NEVER* GOING TO REOPEN AS A PASSENGER STATION.

 

Oh c'mon SnowBlock! Let's not argue over such a non issue such as silly bullets. Anyway yes see guys I told you --- you heard it here first, inside information: The loop will never open again ever. End of discussion.

[Art Vandelay]

I agree with others- Overuse of the bullets is annoying. 

 

With regards to ADA- I confess to not having read through the entirety of the law, but my impression is that once an accommodation is provided, it can't be removed without some sort of alternative provided. (If old south ferry were to reopen, there might need to be a bus from Chambers for disabled passengers) 

[AndrewJC]

I agree with others- Overuse of the bullets is annoying. 

 

Agreed.

 

With regards to ADA- I confess to not having read through the entirety of the law, but my impression is that once an accommodation is provided, it can't be removed without some sort of alternative provided. (If old south ferry were to reopen, there might need to be a bus from Chambers for disabled passengers) 

 

That bus is called the M20 southbound and the M5 northbound. For overnight service, when the M20 and M5 don't run, post the AAR phone number at the station. Problem solved.

 

Are you saying that no transit agency can discontinue or even reroute a bus line, since by doing so an accommodation would be removed?

 

Wasn't the southbound BMT platform at Cortlandt St. ADA compliant before 9/11? It's not compliant now and there's no shuttle bus.

[Art Vandelay]

Agreed.

 

 

That bus is called the M20 southbound and the M5 northbound. For overnight service, when the M20 and M5 don't run, post the AAR phone number at the station. Problem solved.

 

Are you saying that no transit agency can discontinue or even reroute a bus line, since by doing so an accommodation would be removed?

 

Wasn't the southbound BMT platform at Cortlandt St. ADA compliant before 9/11? It's not compliant now and there's no shuttle bus.

The bus alternatives may be enough to satisfy ADA. 

 

For the second- No, although I don't think they could replace such a line with a non ADA compliant line, at least not without the potential for a lawsuit. 

 

With regards to the third- I would be very surprised if an ADA lawsuit were able to undo 9/11... Although if it could, I would support such fully!

[Nova RTS 9147]

Agreed.

 

 

That bus is called the M20 southbound and the M5 northbound. For overnight service, when the M20 and M5 don't run, post the AAR phone number at the station. Problem solved.

 

Are you saying that no transit agency can discontinue or even reroute a bus line, since by doing so an accommodation would be removed?

 

Wasn't the southbound BMT platform at Cortlandt St. ADA compliant before 9/11? It's not compliant now and there's no shuttle bus.

 

If you need to consider AAR for transportation then youre better off just walking or taking another subway line.  

 

As for Cortlandt St , it was "ADA compliant" only because fare control was at the same level as the WTC mall, though I dont think there were elevators that could take you to street level once you got into the mall.

[AndrewJC]

With regards to the third- I would be very surprised if an ADA lawsuit were able to undo 9/11... Although if it could, I would support such fully!

 

Nor can an ADA lawsuit undo Sandy.

 

If South Ferry can't be reopened without ADA accommodations, why could Cortlandt be reopened without ADA accommodations?

[RollOver]

The first time I see Art Vandelay quoted a post, pardon me for this by the way. 

[Snowblock]

The MTA didn't close and replace Cortlandt St. That was a repair job, the same as what the new South Ferry station is. The old South Ferry station was permanently closed and doesn't even appear on the maps anymore, which Cortlandt, Smith/9, etc still do. It would be the same deal if the MTA ever (disclaimer - NO, this is NOT going to happen!) decided to reopen Worth, 91, etc.

[Quill Depot]

It isn't the end of the discussion because you want it to be. I always thought the 's were closely coordinated with the ferry, hence it's terminus.

[Art Vandelay]

I would say that my interpretation of the difference between Cortland and South Ferry closely coincides with that of Snowblock. 

[Wallyhorse]

Source? Link?

 

 

 

Oh c'mon SnowBlock! Let's not argue over such a non issue such as silly bullets. Anyway yes see guys I told you --- you heard it here first, inside information: The loop will never open again ever. End of discussion.

SImply my view.  Quite a few people I know if they were in that situation would probably have been demanding such already.  That's why I'm surprised the pols have been quiet about it (of course, they also might have been quiet about it because it's only been in the last week or so that we have learned how bad the damage has been at the current SF and how long it will actually take to fix it).

 

That's why I also brought up seeing if it is more feasible (and cheaper) to do whatever work was necessary to make old SF compliant AND have it where all 10 cars can open there.  If it can be done for reasonably less than the $600 million-(more likely in my view) $1 BILLION or so it may cost to get the current SF repaired, it may be better to expand old SF to make it platform 10 cars (it's been noted it can actually platform seven cars as it is, so it may not have to be a full doubling of the station) and make it ADA compliant.

 

It may simply come down to what would be less costly to do.