Sudden Sharp Turns and Possibility for Smoothing

[CenSin 3,248]

I was taking a Manhattan-bound to work on Sunday and the train ran express (as planned). Nothing was interesting about the lower level of Bergen Street since it was too dim to see anything, but I did notice that between 4 Avenue and Smith Street, just west of the switches the express track has a sharp (almost angular) turn south as it ramps up towards Smith Street. The train wasn't moving very fast but I could feel the train jerking to the side throwing me off balance as well. If I could compare it to any other point in the system, it'd be the Broadway express track just north of 8 Street.

 

I'm surprised they made the ride so smooth on the newly laid tracks, but left such a bend there. There seems to be enough leeway to smooth out that part. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

[mtattrain 1,185]

Yeah; I see your point. I really think that they should straighten that curve too, but if it was built like that, then the MTA will probably just fix it to look it like that again... could slow down potential express service.

Edited January 21, 2013 by mtattrain

[overclocked 803]

There is only so much you can do when it comes to construction in New York. Subway trunks are no exception, they follow the road above most of the time, including the curvature of the street. This isn't something one can fix cheaply, you would need to buy the land above, which would have astronomical costs. It would made sense to build the line as straight as possible, back in the day, but it's not feasible to spend millions on something not so essential to everyday operation.

Edited January 21, 2013 by overclocked

[Fresh Pond 5,363]

There was a 5th track in that area and since they replaced the tracks there (and removed that 5th track), its realigned differently

[RTOMan 1,464]

There is only so much you can do when it comes to construction in New York. Subway trunks are no exception, they follow the road above most of the time, including the curvature of the street. This isn't something one can fix cheaply, you would need to buy the land above, which would have astronomical costs. It would made sense to build the line as straight as possible, vs k in the day, but it's not feasible to spend millions on something not so essential to everyday operation.

 

Exactly they got more important issues to worry about that a sharp curve on tracks on a lower level now that being  said....

 

If they feel its necessary they will put "Timers" in to Slow the trains down...

 

Problem solved....

[Quill Depot 1,570]

Timers then slow down the commute. I wouldn't make a big deal bout' it.

[RTOMan 1,464]

Timers then slow down the commute. I wouldn't make a big deal bout' it.

 

You would be surprised that some folks dont see it that way, they wanna get there FAST not slowed down by timers...

 

Heres a hint Leave yer house a bit earlier!

Edited January 21, 2013 by RTOMan

[Quill Depot 1,570]

Heres a hint Leave yer house a bit earlier!

 

I don't think timers will be implemented there. Are those jerks harmful to equipment?

[CenSin 3,248]

There is only so much you can do when it comes to construction in New York. Subway trunks are no exception, they follow the road above most of the time, including the curvature of the street. This isn't something one can fix cheaply, you would need to buy the land above, which would have astronomical costs. It would made sense to build the line as straight as possible, back in the day, but it's not feasible to spend millions on something not so essential to everyday operation.

You should look at the the area. Between 4 Avenue and Smith Street, the structure runs between two streets and not on top of them. The Broadway limitation is understandable as the street above is narrow and the BMT was built when speeding through curves wasn't an important "feature" that the IND made possible along the lines that it constructed.

There was a 5th track in that area and since they replaced the tracks there (and removed that 5th track), its realigned differently

They removed an adjacent track, but how does that change what they do further down the track since it's separated by a block of concrete anyway?

Exactly they got more important issues to worry about that a sharp curve on tracks on a lower level now that being  said....

 

If they feel its necessary they will put "Timers" in to Slow the trains down...

 

Problem solved....

What lower level? This is between 4 Avenue and Smith Street.

 

 

Anyway, this kink seems to be a new development. I don't remember the kink being there before, but since I haven't ridden trains on that track too many times I don't trust my memory. It does make sense that there would be enough room for a bit of smoothing though, since the trackways are wide (or appears to be). A satellite view shows that there's a lot of real estate to work with. Google Maps still has old photos from before the construction's completion.

[RTOMan 1,464]

What lower level? This is between 4 Avenue and Smith Street.

 Got my areas mixed was thinking Bergen Lower, my point still stands on the rest of my post...

[CenSin 3,248]

 

 Got my areas mixed was thinking Bergen Lower, my point still stands on the rest of my post...

That could be a temporary solution until the time comes to replace the tracks and ties (e.g.: routine maintenance). Then they could soften that turn a little barring any physical limitations.

[RTOMan 1,464]

That could be a temporary solution until the time comes to replace the tracks and ties (e.g.: routine maintenance). Then they could soften that turn a little barring any physical limitations.

 

 

Once timers are In they usually stay in esp if its due to new trackage(if they even think about doing that which i doubt).

 

Signals is not going to put timers in to slow the trains down then take them out again.

 

Thats not how it works down here.

 

Cant have your cake and eat it too.

[Eric B 1,027]

They removed an adjacent track, but how does that change what they do further down the track since it's separated by a block of concrete anyway?

It used to be a switch where the 5th track merged with 3 and 4 track (which begin moving together to fill in the space for the 5th track anyway), but now the tracks just move over without a switch.

 

I hope they didn't go and  make it a harder jog than when the switch was there. I checked Google maps and Bing maps, but both show the time where there were no express tracks laid through the area at all. 

[Subwayfan12 35]

And especially a little towards the north of Brooklyn Bridge, where the and switch to the express track. It's a brutal thing

[INDman 412]

Aside from adding a track from B4 to B3, the track layout was not changed. All they did was remove the type I track (standard ballast) and replaced it with a type II track (concrete roadbed with concrete ties encased in rubber). The bend in the rail was always there at 4th Ave and was not lessened or made worse by the work that was done.

[itmaybeokay 988]

Aside from adding a track from B4 to B3, the track layout was not changed. All they did was remove the type I track (standard ballast) and replaced it with a type II track (concrete roadbed with concrete ties encased in rubber). The bend in the rail was always there at 4th Ave and was not lessened or made worse by the work that was done.

 

Not to nitpick, but I thought Type II track was wooden ties encased in concrete ballast and type I was traditional gravel ballast. Wouldn't the new track on culver be closer to something like Type VIII, which as I understand is the rails mounted on rubber plates to concrete ballast which exists on IND/BMT 63rd St lines and Archer Ave lines? 

 

I've never found a comprehensive listing of all the types of track - the closest thing depicting types I and II I can find is here http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Concreted_Track--Track_Materials_Specially_Designed..._(1929) but I have found references to III IV and even the 63rd-st special VIII in other documents. 

[INDman 412]

The track used on the 63rd Street line is Type VIII and Type VIII Modified, a concrete roadbed with the rails attached to it on concrete pads. I'll have to check my track books though.

Edited January 23, 2013 by INDman

[mediccjh 458]

Once timers are In they usually stay in esp if its due to new trackage(if they even think about doing that which i doubt).

 

Signals is not going to put timers in to slow the trains down then take them out again.

 

Thats not how it works down here.

 

Cant have your cake and eat it too.

 

I don't know how it was before the Culver Rehab, but there are now timers going Manhattan-bound from Smith-9 Sts down into the portal. They are the new signals too, and they suck. With the sun glare, you can't even tell it's a timer until you are really, really close. I found that out first-hand when I operated over the Viaduct when we went on our R160 joyride last month.

Edited January 23, 2013 by mediccjh

[INDman 412]

After looking at some track book which are a bit dated (early 90's), what they installed on the Smith Street Viaduct (It can be the Culver since it was built by the IND) looks to be a Type II and Type VII Hybrid. There half concrete ties encased in concrete with a rubber shell. What ever it is makes for a smooth ride. They also installed this type of track on the yard leads to 38th st.

 

Medic- The timers one the way into Carroll St have always been there. I have photos of the line when it first opened showing them.

[RTOMan 1,464]

I don't know how it was before the Culver Rehab, but there are now timers going Manhattan-bound from Smith-9 Sts down into the portal. They are the new signals too, and they suck. With the sun glare, you can't even tell it's a timer until you are really, really close. I found that out first-hand when I operated over the Viaduct when we went on our R160 joyride last month.

 

There was always timers there...

[paulrivera 1,144]

The one new timer someone needs to explain to me is the one heading into Kingsbridge on the Woodlawn-bound. It's on a slight uphill incline, and the switches and curves that it's supposed to be protecting are more than 300 feet+ from the end of the station.

 

The one after that before Bedford Park OTOH I can get: Downhill incline, and the curve there is right after the end of the platform.

 

Back to sharp turns, the one on the N/B express tracks on the Lex by Spring used to be pretty abrupt. After FASTRACK it seems they fixed it.

Edited January 23, 2013 by paulrivera

[itmaybeokay 988]

After looking at some track book which are a bit dated (early 90's), what they installed on the Smith Street Viaduct (It can be the Culver since it was built by the IND) looks to be a Type II and Type VII Hybrid. There half concrete ties encased in concrete with a rubber shell. What ever it is makes for a smooth ride. They also installed this type of track on the yard leads to 38th st.

 

Agreed: Whatever it's called it makes for a smooth ride.

 

I'm hoping this was a pilot program for a new standard roadbed type, because the ride over the viaduct is always quite pleasant (passengers nonwithstanding) even on an extra-bouncy R68.

[TwoTimer 761]

might just be a speed sign.

[StevenFrancis 22]

I was on a train coming off the Manhattan Bridge and when the train passed DeKalb Avenue and was pulling into Atlantic, it made a sudden sharp right turn and I saw the car in front just swing around and everyone lost balance, and also on the and just south of Central Park North, maybe drivers shouldnt try and hit turns this fast , its not a matter of trynna make it past it fast, it is about safety.

[itmaybeokay 988]

It seems to me that a lot of the sudden jolts coincide with connections that weren't originally planned to be constantly used, or were afterthoughts. N/B Leaving Bergen, for instance, jerks right to diverge onto the ramp down to the express tracks to get to Jay/Metrotech. The original IND plan would have the 6th avenue trains running express here, no need to diverge, and the Crosstown trains running local. 

 

Another Example, On the , where the 11th St Cut meets the ramp from QBP to the 60th St tube, that's a pretty hard jolt, especially if you're in the back of the train and the T/O has started to accelerate after clearing the timer. The 11th St. cut being the very definition of an afterthought, the supports the point. 

 

(To be fair, I don't mind the jolts. I actually find the one on the R line relieving because it means that I'm through the slow-as-hell 11th st cut, and past the point where the train might be held for an N passing in front.)