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Our Mass Transit Future Parts 2 and 3 - What Happened to Democracy?


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Its all subjective, these states lack a personal income tax.

 

  • Alaska
  • Florida
  • Nevada
  • South Dakota
  • Texas
  • Washington
  • Wyoming

Is everything rosy there, surely not. But they have the basics. Its not like theres no services altogether. Florida is pretty nice in places, Texas has a lot of businesses and such down there. Washington as well. The rest are a bit sleepy but im sure are hardly the horrible places you make them out to be. For someone that likes to live in a big city with a lot of things going on and stuff, I can understand how they would be the worst places for you guys.

 

Foxie you sure put up a good fight in making attempts to make your points clear which is great. No sarcasm there. BTW you mean "objective" not "subjective" I'm assuming in your above statement in regards to states that are not required to pay a "personal tax" if you are stating facts in posts regarding intelligent  which I will without a problem take your word for as true. I'm pretty sure you are correct.

 

btw, speaking for myself I love NYC because it is a " a big city with a lot of things going on and stuff" That's what makes NYC, the multicultural melting pot called the Big Apple as among the most awesome places to live in the world as I'm sure millions around the world would also think. Including the 99.9% of us here at NYCTF.

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Wow. Good thing I'm doing a graveyard shift today setting up the network at a site thank goodness. It's 4:30AM? Lol.

 

I enjoyed discussing the points with you Foxie, you share perspectives showing that you are damn proud of being a Long Islander much like how I am especially proud of being a native New Yorker. Props!

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As for how to run the LIRR for cheaper, Nassau saved a ton of money by getting a private company to run the buses. Im sure they could do the same thing for the LIRR and save us plenty of money out here. For the high cost of running the LIRR its run very badly compared to Metro North.

 

The LIRR was run by a private company for many years, the Pennsylvania RR. They also had a freight operation in addition to passenger service. The Pennsylvania ditched the whole enchilada because it was a money-loser. The (MTA) was created, in part, to allow the Nassau-Suffolk passengers to commute to their jobs in NYC via the LIRR and continue to earn an income to support their lifestyle in the so-called suburbs. The LIRR even contracted out it's freight operations to the NY and Atlantic RR so there's no income from freight anymore. Let's be very clear here. Nassau and most of Suffolk county residents look down at their NYC brethren but with the LIRR and the LIE it's the suburbanites who are really living the subsidized lifestyle. In reality. without Manhattan and it's financial possibilities Nassau and Suffolk counties would be destined to become high priced backwaters. There is always talk of intra-island transportation proposals but all I've seen in my years of traveling through and living out here in Suffolk county is SCT and LIB/NICE and I hardly consider them adequate transit systems to be emulated anywhere. At best they are feeder systems for the LIRR and the retail malls that dot the island. I can see why so many residents of Nassau and Suffolk are so enamored of the automobile 'cause there is really no large-scale employment hubs out there and the hasn't been any since Republic and Grumman scaled back and/or shut their doors years ago. As far as county governments are concerned Nassau and Suffolk are at least as corrupt as NYC's was in the 70's and '80's IMO. The best thing I can say for the residents of both counties is that their state representatives have enough clout in Albany to force the (MTA) to keep supplying subsidized rail service to the area. I seriously doubt that any private company would even consider providing rail or bus service from/to NYC without a government subsidy. Even if the state would allow the (MTA) to sell off the LIRR railroad entity the charter of the railroad states that rail service be provided from Brooklyn to Suffolk( Montauk and Greenport) or words to that effect or the railroad can't continue to operate. What private company would buy into that? The Pennsylvania was the richest and it couldn't do it profitably. I rest my case . The floor is open for rebutttal.

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 I agree with lilfoxie...

 

Long Island should pay their fair share for the LIRR #1 as city residents are subsidizing their service far too much.  That monies could go to better subway and bus service for us.

 

#2 The (MTA) should NOT be allowed to use those bridges as a cash cow, specifically the Verrazano bridge and then take the monies to subsidize Long Island's transportation.  That bridge has paid for twice over now and it should going to support transportation for NYC, period and if I had my say in it, I would elect officials that would restructure that completely.  Unfortunately not too many elected officials have the balls to tend to the dirty work.

 

# I would lower the payroll tax for suburbanites outside of NYC, but I wouldn't eliminate it completely because they are using our services, so they should contribute something, but if they want to eliminate it, then the exchange would be to reduce or eliminate subsidies going to Westchester and Long Island.  Fair is fair and right now NYC is paying far too much and getting little if anything in return.

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 I agree with lilfoxie...

 

# I would lower the payroll tax for suburbanites outside of NYC, but I wouldn't eliminate it completely because they are using our services, so they should contribute something, but if they want to eliminate it, then the exchange would be to reduce or eliminate subsidies going to Westchester and Long Island.  Fair is fair and right now NYC is paying far too much and getting little if anything in return.

 

Long Islanders who work in New York City already pay NYC taxes in addition to state and federal taxes.

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Long Islanders who work in New York City already pay NYC taxes in addition to state and federal taxes.

And rightfully so.  Let's face it now... Long Islanders would not have the lavish salaries that they do in most cases without those high paying NYC jobs... There are jobs on Long Island but most don't pay what they do in Manhattan.

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And rightfully so.  Let's face it now... Long Islanders would not have the lavish salaries that they do in most cases without those high paying NYC jobs... There are jobs on Long Island but most don't pay what they do in Manhattan.

 

But does the city taxes, station parking permits, and LIRR tickets erode away whatever financial gain you would get from living out here and taking the train to manhattan for work? That is a question im not quite sure the answer to, but it is one that many Long Islanders face. Westchester has a similar question, do I take metro north to manhattan for work, or do I find employment in White Plains or some other city in westchester? 

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But does the city taxes, station parking permits, and LIRR tickets erode away whatever financial gain you would get from living out here and taking the train to manhattan for work? That is a question im not quite sure the answer to, but it is one that many Long Islanders face. Westchester has a similar question, do I take metro north to manhattan for work, or do I find employment in White Plains or some other city in westchester? 

I think the answer is fairly easy... Westchester nor Long Island can supply the types of jobs NOR the salaries that many Long Islanders and Westchester residents get when they work in Manhattan.  That's just a fact.  It's the same for folks who live in the city but in more suburban areas.   Now of course some Long Islanders could do that and could find a job on Long Island.  They would probably have shorter commutes in most cases and not have to deal with city taxes, but in most cases they probably would earn significantly less and I think this is the case for many Long Islanders.  In my old job, I knew of several senior project managers or "principals" if you will (that's what we called them since they were sort of like partners in the company) that I'm sure were earning over 100k a year and lived on Long Island and commuted via the LIRR and subway and maybe a few of them drove in like one guy who lived in Manhasset who wasn't a principal, but knew one of the principals in the company, so he still earned nicely as senior project manager probably making 85k - 90k.  I can assure you that they could not find jobs like that on Long Island in the construction field... Just not happening because New York City has always been where the bulk of the high paying construction jobs are because there is always construction happening here in Manhattan.

 

Oddly enough, the principals that didn't live on Long Island earning over 100k a year either lived in Westchester in well to do areas like Scarsdale or affluent parts of Staten Island (i.e. Emerson Hill) or upscale areas of New Jersey.  

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I think the answer is fairly easy... Westchester nor Long Island can supply the types of jobs NOR the salaries that many Long Islanders and Westchester residents get when they work in Manhattan.  That's just a fact.  It's the same for folks who live in the city but in more suburban areas.   Now of course some Long Islanders could do that and could find a job on Long Island.  They would probably have shorter commutes in most cases and not have to deal with city taxes, but in most cases they probably would earn significantly less and I think this is the case for many Long Islanders.  In my old job, I knew of several senior project managers or "principals" if you will (that's what we called them since they were sort of like partners in the company) that I'm sure were earning over 100k a year and lived on Long Island and commuted via the LIRR and subway and maybe a few of them drove in like one guy who lived in Manhasset who wasn't a principal, but knew one of the principals in the company, so he still earned nicely as senior project manager probably making 85k - 90k.  I can assure you that they could not find jobs like that on Long Island in the construction field... Just not happening because New York City has always been where the bulk of the high paying construction jobs are because there is always construction happening here in Manhattan.

 

Oddly enough, the principals that didn't live on Long Island earning over 100k a year either lived in Westchester in well to do areas like Scarsdale or affluent parts of Staten Island (i.e. Emerson Hill) or upscale areas of New Jersey.  

  funny thing is that feeder buses in scarsdale are well utilized even SRO crushed to MNRR.

But does the city taxes, station parking permits, and LIRR tickets erode away whatever financial gain you would get from living out here and taking the train to manhattan for work? That is a question im not quite sure the answer to, but it is one that many Long Islanders face. Westchester has a similar question, do I take metro north to manhattan for work, or do I find employment in White Plains or some other city in westchester? 

Want to save on parking take NICE for 100 extra you get subway and NICE too.
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  funny thing is that feeder buses in scarsdale are well utilized even SRO crushed to MNRR.Want to save on parking take NICE for 100 extra you get subway and NICE too.

 

I dont think you understand why people prefer to drive over mass transit to be honest. I want to go on my terms, and on my time. I don't want to have to worry is this bus going to come, is this train going to be late or get stuck. I have the comfort of my own vehicle, I can play music, not hear someones crappy rap music being played too loudly out their headphones. I have a proper comfortable seat, rather than those hard bus seats

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The only time I would prefer to take the car instead of public transit is in the winter - thanks to this forsaken global warming, whenever there's a bloody snowfall people act like it's the end of the world - transit drivers are ALWAYS LATE, even if the roads are crystal clear, and when your first period teacher at school is big on being on time that is a huge problem. :angry:

 

Come to Toronto during the rush hour. If you got into your car at Kennedy station while I boarded the Bloor-Danforth line train, I can almost guarantee I would make it to Kipling before you.

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The only time I would prefer to take the car instead of public transit is in the winter - thanks to this forsaken global warming, whenever there's a bloody snowfall people act like it's the end of the world - transit drivers are ALWAYS LATE, even if the roads are crystal clear, and when your first period teacher at school is big on being on time that is a huge problem. :angry:

 

Come to Toronto during the rush hour. If you got into your car at Kennedy station while I boarded the Bloor-Danforth line train, I can almost guarantee I would make it to Kipling before you.

 

I dont know anything about Toronto and where things are up there. I don't even drive to Manhattan. Everything I need to do on a day to day basis is out here on Long Island, work, food, shopping, the mall, etc. The only time I drive in New York city is to get to other places like New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. or if im driving someone to the airport. A better comparison would be about driving in the suburbs of Toronto.

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In the suburbs, cars are almost always better. Buses run on 30 minute headways in the smallest of them and service is generally limited in where it runs.

 

Plus... they try to fit 50 people on a 30 foot bus.... *shudders*

 

There are people that do drive into Manhattan for work, I dont know what they do for a living, where they park, etc. There are others that live on Long Island and work in New Jersey and vice versa, and that is a tough commute. I had a college professor who lives in Stroudsburg, Penna. and he would drive to Farmingdale State College, which is in Suffolk county. I dunno how he did it without going insane.

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There are people that do drive into Manhattan for work, I dont know what they do for a living, where they park, etc. There are others that live on Long Island and work in New Jersey and vice versa, and that is a tough commute. I had a college professor who lives in Stroudsburg, Penna. and he would drive to Farmingdale State College, which is in Suffolk county. I dunno how he did it without going insane.

 

Insane wow from NJ to LI it's impossible via transit as LIRR has no reverse. BUT LI to NJ that is at am then back at PM is very much doable but still nuts even if you do get lucky with 2 express trains one LIRR and other NJT. I have done the trip before from farmingdale to new brunswick may the god be with anyone who attempts it period by car or LIRR to NJT yes NJT trains are shockingly well timed with LIRR trains. I had a city-data guy PM me about a transit trip from east windsor to white plains I kid you not It only took 2 buses and a train. The suburban bus he took dropped him infront of GCT where he got a reverse peak train to WP where the BL W3 was waiting for him. He told me about his commute after he tried it I felt sorry for him. But the other option is get stuck in NJ traffic get assraped by tolls and the trip would be even longer. Even I would try to avoid a trip like that.  So he had to get a MNRR with uniticket and a bus pass yet it was still cheaper than gas+tolls!!

In the suburbs, cars are almost always better. Buses run on 30 minute headways in the smallest of them and service is generally limited in where it runs.

 

Plus... they try to fit 50 people on a 30 foot bus.... *shudders*

 

If the buses were given an extensive review and ran to where people wanted to go at higher frequencies they'd get used more. Even if minibuses have to be used to improve frequency so be it. BUT however I admit you sir are correct in that argument.

I dont know anything about Toronto and where things are up there. I don't even drive to Manhattan. Everything I need to do on a day to day basis is out here on Long Island, work, food, shopping, the mall, etc. The only time I drive in New York city is to get to other places like New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. or if im driving someone to the airport. A better comparison would be about driving in the suburbs of Toronto.

Err GOtransit is allover but ask a toronto native I barely understand their network.

 

I dont think you understand why people prefer to drive over mass transit to be honest. I want to go on my terms, and on my time. I don't want to have to worry is this bus going to come, is this train going to be late or get stuck. I have the comfort of my own vehicle, I can play music, not hear someones crappy rap music being played too loudly out their headphones. I have a proper comfortable seat, rather than those hard bus seats

BWAHAHAHAHAHA LOL All they need is to add suburban seating to buses killing the seat argument. Plus feeder buses take 10 mins or less to get to LIRR station BUT due to poor timing you have to drive so we will never know the real demand for sure until the transit system is well  made to be useful. Then you would have a case until public transit becomes fast well coordinated and serves places people are trying to get to and we see the real ridership then we will see the true preference be exposed till then it's nonsense. Now if you lived in front of the LIRR and it went to where you needed but you choose to drive then that is a valid case but many LIers on city-data have told me the same thing buses are too slow and require too many transfers to get anywhere important. N74/73 all it serves are residential areas and the LIRR. People on the bus all say the same thing people can't use a service that doesn't exist.

 

Ohh your argument means nothing to scarsdale suit and tie folks who actually use the 65/64 from MNRR at rush those buses unlike NICE and SCT's sad excuse for feeders or LIRR links actually get packed yes these folks do in fact have cars. They just choose not to use them to get to the train. Even though some folks still drive but you have to give people choice. I was the poorest guy on the W65 SRO.

 

Every person is different you simply can't generalize everybody it's inaccurate till choice is granted till then you can say whatever but we will never really know.

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Insane wow from NJ to LI it's impossible via transit as LIRR has no reverse. BUT LI to NJ that is at am then back at PM is very much doable but still nuts even if you do get lucky with 2 express trains one LIRR and other NJT. I have done the trip before from farmingdale to new brunswick may the god be with anyone who attempts it period by car or LIRR to NJT yes NJT trains are shockingly well timed with LIRR trains. I had a city-data guy PM me about a transit trip from east windsor to white plains I kid you not It only took 2 buses and a train. The suburban bus he took dropped him infront of GCT where he got a reverse peak train to WP where the BL W3 was waiting for him. He told me about his commute after he tried it I felt sorry for him. But the other option is get stuck in NJ traffic get assraped by tolls and the trip would be even longer. Even I would try to avoid a trip like that.  So he had to get a MNRR with uniticket and a bus pass yet it was still cheaper than gas+tolls!!

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHA LOL All they need is to add suburban seating to buses killing the seat argument. Plus feeder buses take 10 mins or less to get to LIRR station BUT due to poor timing you have to drive so we will never know the real demand for sure until the transit system is well  made to be useful. Then you would have a case until public transit becomes fast well coordinated and serves places people are trying to get to and we see the real ridership then we will see the true preference be exposed till then it's nonsense. Now if you lived in front of the LIRR and it went to where you needed but you choose to drive then that is a valid case but many LIers on city-data have told me the same thing buses are too slow and require too many transfers to get anywhere important. N74/73 all it serves are residential areas and the LIRR. People on the bus all say the same thing people can't use a service that doesn't exist.

 

Suburban seats does not equal the comfort of a car. Ive ridden express buses before. You ignore the whole I like to go where I want, when I want argument and not have to live my life according to a bus schedule. Even in Manhattan there are streets with cars parked everywhere, parking garages full of cars, Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx, even streets in the ghetto have cars parked on the streets. Surely they aren't all working in the suburbs.

 

Understand this, there is nothing you can say or propose as far as new bus routes or train lines that will get me to give up my car entirely. If you are able to convince others, great for you and great for me, less traffic for me to deal with when I got places to go.

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Suburban seats does not equal the comfort of a car. Ive ridden express buses before. You ignore the whole I like to go where I want, when I want argument and not have to live my life according to a bus schedule. Even in Manhattan there are streets with cars parked everywhere, parking garages full of cars, Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx, even streets in the ghetto have cars parked on the streets. Surely they aren't all working in the suburbs.

 

Understand this, there is nothing you can say or propose as far as new bus routes or train lines that will get me to give up my car entirely. If you are able to convince others, great for you and great for me, less traffic for me to deal with when I got places to go.

and also you don't understand that people well the majority of them USE TRAINS to get to and around manhattan. Not gonna involve buses as buses in manhattan are pathetic in speed compared to LI and the outerboroughs and I don't use buses in manhattan at all. Sorry but you are losing this debate badly I'd stop if I were you you actually strengthened my argument with the bold highlight. You are basically saying cause people drive transit is useless that is like me saying manhattan has trains why drive? The argument goes both ways. Just cause people drive and have no choice doesn't mean they will or will not welcome a new transit option. You don't see both sides of the coin. Your done buddy.You are well just you that doesn't mean EVERYBODY is like you are you cloning urself to take over LI LOL? Of course you won't give up your car KEYWORD ENTIRELY!! In reply to bold BINGO that is exactly what I want I am not targeting you personally which you seem to believe at least that is the vibe I feel. Exactly you are one of the people who have to drive no matter what. So you should be on my side as it means less traffic for you to deal with. Well done your last line was your best line. Looks like you finally understand. I am looking to convince as many as possible so those that must drive deal with less traffic.

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and also you don't understand that people well the majority of them USE TRAINS to get to and around manhattan. \

 

I'm going have to agree with you on that +9000 % on this one. Some should think about of why the NYC Subways are one of the only transit systems in the country the world that runs 24-7. For a reason.

 

Not everyone even owns a car in NYC. The out of date automobile transportation infrastructure and street grids are not enough for the increase of the population that needs to get to destinations if by car or commercial truck.

 

Look at Downtown Manhattan, it's a madhouse trying to even think of driving through there it's so bad. Good luck getting to work on time if you are getting there by car. The FDR, Brooklyn battery Tunnel, Holland Tunnel, GWB, Grand Central Parkway, and the BQE are seriously congested beyond comprehension, yes people in NYC more often then not, even the elite, shoot even our mayor of New York uses mass transit more than by automobile.

 

That says alot. It speaks volumes. Totally different ballgame as compared to the suburbs.

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Let me add the West Side Highway which is total chaos during rush hours. And please lets not get into the notion of how sometimes it isn't as contested then you think perspective if you're driving at 4 AM in the morning, that's a redundant argument unless you're a vampire or something. Thanks for listening, OK clocking out from work and going home okthxbye.

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What would benefit Long Islanders is a Light Rail running along the wide boulevards and a restoration of a few lines like the Central Branch and Oyster Bay Branch Extension...

 

Central Branch

New York Penn Station / Grand Central Terminal

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside 

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica 

Hollis 

Francis Lewis Boulevard 

Queens Village 

Floral Park 

Stewart Manor 

Nassau Boulevard 

Garden City 

Nassau Hub - East Garden City (Trenched)

East Meadow (Underground)

Jerusalem Ave - Levittown (Underground) 

Hicksville Road - Levittown (Underground)

Hempstead Turnpike - Farmingdale (Elevated)

Main Street - South Farmingdale

North Lindenhurst 

Babylon 

 

Oyster Bay Branch

 

New York Penn Station / Grand Central Terminal

Sunnyside JCT

Woodside 

Forest Hills

Kew Gardens

Jamaica 

Saint Albans

Farmers Boulevard 

Valley Stream

Westwood

Malverne 

Lakeview 

Hempstead Gardens

West Hempstead (Rebuilt Trenched)

Cathedral Ave - Hempstead (Underground)

Franklin Ave - Hempstead - (Underground)

Stewart Ave - Garden City (Underground)

Minola Central (Underground) 

East Williston

Albertson

​Roslyn 

Greenvale 

Glen Head 

Sea Cliff

Glen Street

Glen Cove 

Locust Valley 

Oyster Bay

 

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215312482559953359515.000496c9cdea77cff2ae1&msa=0&ll=40.724885,-73.509521&spn=0.338763,0.837021

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I generally have no problem with people using cars, but all the selfish things people do on the road like speeding and double parking on streets where buses run makes me want to be on the road as a vehicle operator as little as possible and makes the car my enemy. "enforcement" is inconsistent and is a band-aid solution and these lawbreakers have no effing respect for any mode of transportation

 

there is also the smug attitude exhibited by these lawbreakers, as city-data user "jcoltrane" (read: loud idiots who hijacked democracy) will so artfully tell you: http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-york-city/1777293-double-parking-busy-streets-where-buses.html

 

happy reading

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@Foxie: See, even though transit here is limited, I still prefer to take it instead of the car. The main thing I like is that it kills time - if I had my dad drive me (usually he's gone before I even wake up) then effectively I'd be left for 35 minutes with nothing to do, as my friends don't arrive until the start of the school day.

 

But the low frequencies and limited areas argument is kind of dead if you live in a larger city...

 

@QJ: they introduced 2 new routes in September. They have more buses on order for this year, hopefully for expansion (or to be rid of the 30 footers)

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