Our Mass Transit Future Parts 2 and 3 - What Happened to Democracy?

[lilbluefoxie]

and also you don't understand that people well the majority of them USE TRAINS to get to and around manhattan. Not gonna involve buses as buses in manhattan are pathetic in speed compared to LI and the outerboroughs and I don't use buses in manhattan at all. Sorry but you are losing this debate badly I'd stop if I were you you actually strengthened my argument with the bold highlight. You are basically saying cause people drive transit is useless that is like me saying manhattan has trains why drive? The argument goes both ways. Just cause people drive and have no choice doesn't mean they will or will not welcome a new transit option. You don't see both sides of the coin. Your done buddy.You are well just you that doesn't mean EVERYBODY is like you are you cloning urself to take over LI LOL? Of course you won't give up your car KEYWORD ENTIRELY!! In reply to bold BINGO that is exactly what I want I am not targeting you personally which you seem to believe at least that is the vibe I feel. Exactly you are one of the people who have to drive no matter what. So you should be on my side as it means less traffic for you to deal with. Well done your last line was your best line. Looks like you finally understand. I am looking to convince as many as possible so those that must drive deal with less traffic.

 

You and a buncha others are misinterpreting all my posts and trying to talk about Manhatan, i had just said I don't even drive into Manhattan, What im saying is I aint giving up my car for travel on Long Island and elsewhere. Its kinda hard to give up something that I never did to begin with, and that is drive to Manhattan. As for that guy on citydata that someone else mentioned, I can see where hes coming from. I dont know anything about that part of Brookyln, it doesnt seem like the kind of area I would want to frequent.

[B35 via Church]

Another one of these car v. bus discussions..... Just got through a discussion of sorts that ended up w/ the thread being locked....

 

 

Not that I care for the elitism he displays on here (because I don't), but I don't know why some of you are trying to convince or argue down lilbluefoxie into taking or pointing out the pluses/positives of mass transit.... You're wasting your time..... He is the classic example of the point I've been making on these forums for quite some time now - No matter what you do w/ public transportation, you will always have those commuters that will not abandon their personal vehicle.....

 

.....and to QJT especially, I hope this is a wake up call.....  I advocate public transportation also, but this neverending pipe dream of yours that involves having the masses take buses on a large scale (especially over rails) out in the suburbs you can just forget about..... Out in long island, lol.... man, forget about having ppl. take buses to/from manhattan like that because you aren't gonna get LI-ers to abandon their cars (or the LIRR)..... I don't know what is it about that you don't understand..... Living out in the suburbs represents the so-called "american dream" - which does not include said suburbanite taking a BUS to work, I'm sorry......

 

Speaking of pipe dreams.... lol.... Nexis, good luck getting long islanders to side with all of that.

adding a bunch of stops on the rail network aren't gonna exactly have ppl. flocking to the rails either.... More stops will prove detrimental & just might have more ppl. abandoning taking the rails & hopping into their personal vehicles.....

 

......and for those that'll come on here w/ the whole "everyone doesn't have a car", Miss me with that, because I'm specifically referring to people WITH cars in this post.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Another one of these car v. bus discussions..... Just got through a discussion of sorts that ended up w/ the thread being locked....

 

 

Not that I care for the elitism he displays on here (because I don't), but I don't know why some of you are trying to convince or argue down lilbluefoxie into taking or pointing out the pluses/positives of mass transit.... You're wasting your time..... He is the classic example of the point I've been making on these forums for quite some time now - No matter what you do w/ public transportation, you will always have those commuters that will not abandon their personal vehicle.....

 

.....and to QJT especially, I hope this is a wake up call.....  I advocate public transportation also, but this neverending pipe dream of yours that involves having the masses take buses on a large scale (especially over rails) out in the suburbs you can just forget about..... Out in long island, lol.... man, forget about having ppl. take buses to/from manhattan like that because you aren't gonna get LI-ers to abandon their cars (or the LIRR)..... I don't know what is it about that you don't understand..... Living out in the suburbs represents the so-called "american dream" - which does not include said suburbanite taking a BUS to work, I'm sorry......

 

Speaking of pipe dreams.... lol.... Nexis, good luck getting long islanders to side with all of that.

adding a bunch of stops on the rail network aren't gonna exactly have ppl. flocking to the rails either.... More stops will prove detrimental & just might have more ppl. abandoning taking the rails & hopping into their personal vehicles.....

 

......and for those that'll come on here w/ the whole "everyone doesn't have a car", Miss me with that, because I'm specifically referring to people WITH cars in this post.....

Yep, definitely true...

[B35 via Church]

As for BrooklynBus' article....

 

The common denominator in all 3 parts was Select Bus Service.... Basically what I got from it all was that you have a gripe w/ SBS in some areas (i.e., along the B44), but advocate for it in other areas (such av along av P & flatlands to JFK... which I disagree with, but whatever) with a bit of history of our rail system mixed in here & there..... Was this you trying to silence the critics of yours that believe you don't approve of SBS at all or something?

 

Because I have to say, if so, "The Need For A Balanced Transportation System" regarding our mass transit future, certainly doesn't solely rest on how effective or ineffective SBS is..... I mean, I also believe that SBS is being forced down our throats, but we also have the express buses & our subway system to worry about too.....

 

To be frank here, I was expecting more subway talk in these parts 2 & 3.....

[DaTransitMan4608]

and also you don't understand that people well the majority of them USE TRAINS to get to and around manhattan. Not gonna involve buses as buses in manhattan are pathetic in speed compared to LI and the outerboroughs and I don't use buses in manhattan at all. Sorry but you are losing this debate badly I'd stop if I were you you actually strengthened my argument with the bold highlight. You are basically saying cause people drive transit is useless that is like me saying manhattan has trains why drive? The argument goes both ways. Just cause people drive and have no choice doesn't mean they will or will not welcome a new transit option. You don't see both sides of the coin. Your done buddy.You are well just you that doesn't mean EVERYBODY is like you are you cloning urself to take over LI LOL? Of course you won't give up your car KEYWORD ENTIRELY!! In reply to bold BINGO that is exactly what I want I am not targeting you personally which you seem to believe at least that is the vibe I feel. Exactly you are one of the people who have to drive no matter what. So you should be on my side as it means less traffic for you to deal with. Well done your last line was your best line. Looks like you finally understand. I am looking to convince as many as possible so those that must drive deal with less traffic.

Why are you grilling him just because he said he would rather use his car than use transit to go everywhere. Just like B35 said, not everyone in the suburbs is gonna ditch their car (or the train) to take multiple buses to Manhattan, be it whether their coming from NJ, Long Island, Westchester area, or Connecticut. The main reason for that is the one thing that keeps our transit systems alive.....money. Some drive to work because they don't see a reason to spend money on something they can technically do for free.

 

Now if I were going somewhere locally (for example) like Woodbridge Mall per-se, I would use NJT. Yeah, driving there is faster. That's a no brainer. But I use the bus simply to pass the time. Not everyone thinks of it like that. Most people see it as an inconvenience and would rather drive.

 

Another one of these car v. bus discussions..... Just got through a discussion of sorts that ended up w/ the thread being locked....

 

 

Not that I care for the elitism he displays on here (because I don't), but I don't know why some of you are trying to convince or argue down lilbluefoxie into taking or pointing out the pluses/positives of mass transit.... You're wasting your time..... He is the classic example of the point I've been making on these forums for quite some time now - No matter what you do w/ public transportation, you will always have those commuters that will not abandon their personal vehicle.....

 

.....and to QJT especially, I hope this is a wake up call.....  I advocate public transportation also, but this neverending pipe dream of yours that involves having the masses take buses on a large scale (especially over rails) out in the suburbs you can just forget about..... Out in long island, lol.... man, forget about having ppl. take buses to/from manhattan like that because you aren't gonna get LI-ers to abandon their cars (or the LIRR)..... I don't know what is it about that you don't understand..... Living out in the suburbs represents the so-called "american dream" - which does not include said suburbanite taking a BUS to work, I'm sorry......

 

Speaking of pipe dreams.... lol.... Nexis, good luck getting long islanders to side with all of that.

adding a bunch of stops on the rail network aren't gonna exactly have ppl. flocking to the rails either.... More stops will prove detrimental & just might have more ppl. abandoning taking the rails & hopping into their personal vehicles.....

 

......and for those that'll come on here w/ the whole "everyone doesn't have a car", Miss me with that, because I'm specifically referring to people WITH cars in this post.....

Bold: While that's true, it's not always the case. Most people avoid driving if they work in Manhattan if that's what you're referring to. But for those working in the suburban environments, yeah you won't really see them using the bus to get work. They either carpool or drive themselves.

[B35 via Church]

Bold: While that's true, it's not always the case.

 

Most people avoid driving if they work in Manhattan if that's what you're referring to.

But for those working in the suburban environments, yeah you won't really see them using the bus to get work. They either carpool or drive themselves.

 

What's not always the case? People that move out to the suburbs aren't looking/seeking/yearning to take buses to work....

 

That bolded snippet from my post was a general comment & wasn't referring to any specific commute.....

But since you bring it up, there are accentuating factors that keeps the masses from driving to manhattan... Shear land size itself (of manhattan), lack of alternatives to get to/from manhattan (especially from NJ), & lack of parking in manhattan, are some of those factors.....

[DaTransitMan4608]

What's not always the case? People that move out to the suburbs aren't looking/seeking/yearning to take buses to work....

The fact that people don't use mass transit in burbs. What I'm saying basically is, you have people who will drive to work and those who take M/T to work from the burbs instead of driving. One thing that plays a role in that is gas prices. If they go up like $0.50 a gallon, then some people may look to transit to get to work, be it the train or bus.

[realizm]

Another one of these car v. bus discussions..... Just got through a discussion of sorts that ended up w/ the thread being locked....

 

 

For the record, this thread was sort of derailed among the other reasons, because these articles posted in the OP  barely scraped the surface on subway mass transit or railroad transit, not leaving much room for discussion on the articles. (Not to offend you BrooklynBus, it's the author of the articles itself)  

 

As for myself my start on this thread has to do with discussion regarding funding for the extension, the once proposed extension of the to NJ that was killed by Albany,  then the reasons why the MTA has placed Capital Construction priority on implementing CBTC on the IND Queens Blvd Line as it relates to reverse commuting from riders via LIRR and residents in growing neighborhoods that the IND Queens Bvld Line and LIRR serves PARTICULARLY Jamaica, St Albans, Elmhurst, Woodhaven, Jackson Heights, Flushing  etc etc. with numerical stats on ridership and funding for these rail systems. 

 

As for elitism in general, it applies because of the killjoy NIMBYs who are killing such mass transit projects such as the once proposed IND Rockaway extension via the Rego Park spur via the IND Queens Blvd Line. Now it's going to be a damn park?!

 

As for auto travel vs mass transit, indeed it applies because of the facts aforementioned, more people use subway and railroad transit then automobile for many reasons, as at least in NYC, more cost effective, eco-friendly, and in some cases faster and much more convenient then driving in the case of Manhattan.

 

Those were my points, and well you know the rest of the story on how the discussion progressed.... (Or digressed? Foamfest? You be the judge....)

 

Carry on dudes.

[B35 via Church]

The fact that people don't use mass transit in burbs.

 

What I'm saying basically is, you have people who will drive to work and those who take M/T to work from the burbs instead of driving. One thing that plays a role in that is gas prices. If they go up like $0.50 a gallon, then some people may look to transit to get to work, be it the train or bus.

 

Ok, but I never said or implicated anything of the sort; Of course you have suburbanites that take mass transit; largely rail transportation over bus transportation.... In NJ, the bus system is as extensive as it is, due to the fact that the rail system isn't as extensive......

 

I'm saying those that move out to the suburbs generally don't look forward to taking buses, which they don't....... I mean, who moves to the suburbs to be dependent upon a bus..... You don't move out to the suburbs to be of a 0 car transportation household.... That was my point with that.

 

 

For the record, this thread was sort of derailed among the other reasons, because these articles posted in the OP barely scraped the surface on subway mass transit or railroad transit, not leaving much room for discussion on the articles.

(Not to offend you BrooklynBus, it's the author of the articles itself) 

Agreed.... BrooklynBus spent too much time talking about SBS.

[realizm]

Agreed.... BrooklynBus spent too much time talking about SBS.

 

I meant the articles the author wrote.

[B35 via Church]

I meant the articles the author wrote.

 

Allan Rosen is "BrooklynBus" on this forum.... those are his articles in those 2 links he shared in the OP.....

 

Unless you are referring to some other articles?

[realizm]

Allan Rosen is "BrooklynBus" on this forum.... those are his articles in those 2 links he shared in the OP.....

 

Unless you are referring to some other articles?

 

That's news to me! Had no idea.

 

Let me add: (for the sake of damage control here) that in all sincerity, Allen Rosen (now that I realize his forum name is BrooklynBus) is an excellent and knowledgeable writer that's for sure.

 

He really went into depth in the role of the NIMBYs and their underhanded tactics that killed original subway proposal plans for expansion as well as the refusal of funding from Albany and the federal government (despite President's Obama's well intended efforts --- did I open up a can of worms here? Oh well...)  for these proposed projects,  forcing the MTA to consider SBS as an alternative along major outer-borough corridors among other things. Which I appreciate because I felt the exact same way however but from a different POV as a frequent user of subway transit not bus transportation.

[DaTransitMan4608]

Of course you have suburbanites that take mass transit; largely rail transportation over bus transportation.... In NJ, the bus system is as extensive as it is, due to the fact that the rail system isn't as extensive......

That's right. The bus pretty much covers areas that the train can't access to put it in layman's terms.

I'm saying those that move out to the suburbs generally don't look forward to taking buses, which they don't....... Nobody moves to the suburbs to be dependent upon a bus..... You don't move out to the suburbs to be of a 0 car transportation household.... That was my point with that.

Right. Most people aren't moving to Carteret solely for the purpose of using 116 lol, but that can be discussed in NJT forum.

 

Speaking of which, it's been a while since I've seen you post on the NJT forums lol.

 

 

[B35 via Church]

That's news to me! Had no idea.

lol.... Yup, that's him.

 

That's right. The bus pretty much covers areas that the train can't access to put it in layman's terms.

Right. Most people aren't moving to Carteret solely for the purpose of using 116 lol, but that can be discussed in NJT forum.

 

Speaking of which, it's been a while since I've seen you post on the NJT forums lol.

1) ...and there you go.

 

2) I still check the NJT forum, just haven't been posting in it (about time an NJT random thoughts thread was created !)....

Specifically, the NJT ideas thread - It's basically a back & forth w/ you & QJT.... I've been noticing your ideas.

[qjtransitmaster]

Another one of these car v. bus discussions..... Just got through a discussion of sorts that ended up w/ the thread being locked....

 

 

Not that I care for the elitism he displays on here (because I don't), but I don't know why some of you are trying to convince or argue down lilbluefoxie into taking or pointing out the pluses/positives of mass transit.... You're wasting your time..... He is the classic example of the point I've been making on these forums for quite some time now - No matter what you do w/ public transportation, you will always have those commuters that will not abandon their personal vehicle..... even with transit perfected you will still sort of need a car for well those trips I just don't know what they are yet.

 

.....and to QJT especially, I hope this is a wake up call.....  I advocate public transportation also, but this neverending pipe dream of yours that involves having the masses take buses on a large scale (especially over rails) out in the suburbs you can just forget about..... Out in long island, lol.... man, forget about having ppl. take buses to/from manhattan like that because you aren't gonna get LI-ers to abandon their cars (or the LIRR)..... I don't know what is it about that you don't understand..... Living out in the suburbs represents the so-called "american dream" - which does not include said suburbanite taking a BUS to work, I'm sorry...... I know but having a bus that goes nowhere vs restructuring it to go somewhere and get more riders is a waste of money. Respectable levels not super frequent but useful and welcoming. There will always be some that will drive duh. But we will never know that exact number till NICE is perfected.

 

Speaking of pipe dreams.... lol.... Nexis, good luck getting long islanders to side with all of that.

adding a bunch of stops on the rail network aren't gonna exactly have ppl. flocking to the rails either.... More stops will prove detrimental & just might have more ppl. abandoning taking the rails & hopping into their personal vehicles.....

 

......and for those that'll come on here w/ the whole "everyone doesn't have a car", Miss me with that, because I'm specifically referring to people WITH cars in this post.....dude I won't even say a word to nexis he is err a bit rail extreme!! metal music plays when he posts.

Your right buddy I am well aware of the scale BUT I think you overestimate the scale I am targeting I say a better designed network like modernizing the nassau and suffolk network especially would take enough cars off the road so those who must drive or prefer to drive have a much smoother drive with less wrestling with traffic. I have zero intention of getting people to take buses over the LIRR LOL on that not gonna happen my intention is to better integrate the bus network into the overall network so the LIRR and bus networks work hand in hand together. I will never be dumb enough to believe people would actually use buses to manhattan from LI directly over the LIRR not realistic never gonna happen that is NOT what my proposal is nor it's intention. Buses will NEVER directly compete against the LIRR and survive unless LIRR service is shit. My network makes it easier to use buses to the LIRR to get to other destinations on LI. But then again It's my fault for not releasing the perfected details of it as I made changes to the NICE part based on travel pattern observations and comments.

I was able to dissect.

You and a buncha others are misinterpreting all my posts and trying to talk about Manhatan, i had just said I don't even drive into Manhattan, What im saying is I aint giving up my car for travel on Long Island and elsewhere. Its kinda hard to give up something that I never did to begin with, and that is drive to Manhattan. As for that guy on citydata that someone else mentioned, I can see where hes coming from. I dont know anything about that part of Brookyln, it doesnt seem like the kind of area I would want to frequent.

You do realize I am neutral right I say there should be a balanced transit and road network. I think there is a mis-communication between us. I understand your argument for LI but the transit as is is just basically wasting tax dollars and benefiting almost nobody. I don't aim to LI can't be compared to manhattan. LI is more spread out some areas like oyster bay are too empty to even warrant bus service at all. Plainview at off-peak well pretty empty to the point where you barely see cars. N79 ridership never ceases to amaze me to be honest. I understand you and your style I am NOT trying to get you or many to give up their car but I am advocating to give people the choices to choose between the car and transit like I said many people who use buses in westchester actually have cars and do drive sometimes. Heck some trips you have to drive same for LI but people need choices we will never know for sure cause people are a bit passive vs the gov't there.

[B35 via Church]

I know but having a bus that goes nowhere vs restructuring it to go somewhere and get more riders is a waste of money. Respectable levels not super frequent but useful and welcoming. There will always be some that will drive duh. But we will never know that exact number till NICE is perfected.

First off, f*** off with the "duh" shit....

 

Second, You're double-talking when you are conveying the point about respectable service levels out in the suburbs & said services being useful & welcoming & all that - But in the same token, tell us how so "neutral" you are & this sudden concern of yours to keep those that drive, remaining in their personal vehicles..... From day one, your shtick has been to get as many people out of their cars & onto buses as possible... To say otherwise is a bold-faced lie & you know it.....

 

I'm gonna call your bluff here.....

Since you say you "know", Stop with all these silly ideas that suggests extending local city buses onto highways.....

 

But we both know you won't do that.

 

dude I won't even say a word to nexis he is err a bit rail extreme!!

Preaching to the choir......

 

Your right buddy I am well aware of the scale BUT I think you overestimate the scale I am targeting I say a better designed network like modernizing the nassau and suffolk network especially would take enough cars off the road so those who must drive or prefer to drive have a much smoother drive with less wrestling with traffic. I have zero intention of getting people to take buses over the LIRR LOL on that not gonna happen my intention is to better integrate the bus network into the overall network so the LIRR and bus networks work hand in hand together.

You're proving my point for me....

 

Even if it's on a smaller scale, you aren't gonna get the masses to stop driving to the RR & taking buses to the RR instead....

Do I even have to bring up how embarrassingly low N73/74 usage is? (for example... which is a perfect illustration of the point btw)

Do you think increasing service on those pair of routes will increase usage?

Do you think you're gonna get ppl. to stop driving to LIRR Ronkonkoma & LIRR Huntington (again, for example) from their residences to those RR stations in any significant number by increasing bus service & expanding the service area of SCT (especially out there in Ronkonkoma)?

 

Nevermind me for a second - Let Lilbluefoxie emphatically tell you the answer to those questions.....

 

You grossly underestimate what the personal vehicle represents to suburbanites & the stigma that exists with buses..... You cannot ignore that, no matter what we transit advocates might want.....

 

You do realize I am neutral right I say there should be a balanced transit and road network. I think there is a mis-communication between us. I understand your argument for LI but the transit as is is just basically wasting tax dollars and benefiting almost nobody. I don't aim to LI can't be compared to manhattan. LI is more spread out some areas like oyster bay are too empty to even warrant bus service at all. Plainview at off-peak well pretty empty to the point where you barely see cars. N79 ridership never ceases to amaze me to be honest.

 

I understand you and your style I am NOT trying to get you or many to give up their car but I am advocating to give people the choices to choose between the car and transit like I said many people who use buses in westchester actually have cars and do drive sometimes. Heck some trips you have to drive same for LI but people need choices we will never know for sure cause people are a bit passive vs the gov't there.

That's exactly what you tried to do....

You tried to sell him the positives of public transportation and he wanted nothin to do with it.....

[lilbluefoxie]

Do I even have to bring up how embarrassingly low N73/74 usage is? (for example... which is a perfect illustration of the point btw)

 

The 73 and 74 serve Levittown which from day one was designed to be the quintessential suburb, with the curvy streets, 2 cars per family, a nice lil backyard, etc. 

 

Do you think increasing service on those pair of routes will increase usage?

 

Its the same thing with the 80 and 81, those areas go through middle class neighborhoods where people already own cars. Its not like the 57 and 58 which gets people that cant get a parking permit at Great Neck. Hicksville has parking even at 9am for the late commuters, and Bethpage has plenty of spots even at 10am in the far lot. With the city improving compared to what it was in the 70s and 80s when the suburbs were on the rise, the middle and upper middle class people who are going to want a more transit oriented environment would move initially to the city somewhere after they move out of their parents house. 

 

Do you think you're gonna get ppl. to stop driving to LIRR Ronkonkoma & LIRR Huntington (again, for example) from their residences to those RR stations in any significant number by increasing bus service & expanding the service area of SCT (especially out there in Ronkonkoma)?

 

More reliable Greenport service would get people to use the stations nearer where they live like Yaphank, Medford, and Riverhead. Same with  the diesel Montauk (east of Speonk) and Port Jeff segments. Thats why the Ronkonkoma branch is so busy because everyone from suffolk gravitates towards those stations because they have the most frequent service out of the Suffolk LIRR lines. The Greenport segment is a very long single tracked segment which makes it difficult to expand on service. The  diesel Port Jefferson part is also hampered by single tracked segments but there appears to be provisions for double tracks in spots. Montauk branch, it would be interesting to do a trial run, have the trains that terminate in Speonk, instead run to Southampton (which has extra tracks for them to turn trains on) Advertise it well and do a detailed count of how many people are riding it.

 

The advertising and getting the word out is key, if people dont know about it, theyre just gunna do what they always do, drive to Speonk, not knowing it goes further, and its going to look like noones riding the extension.

[qjtransitmaster]

 

First off, f*** off with the "duh" shit....

 

Second, You're double-talking when you are conveying the point about respectable service levels out in the suburbs & said services being useful & welcoming & all that - But in the same token, tell us how so "neutral" you are & this sudden concern of yours to keep those that drive, remaining in their personal vehicles..... From day one, your shtick has been to get as many people out of their cars & onto buses as possible... To say otherwise is a bold-faced lie & you know it.....

 

I'm gonna call your bluff here.....

Since you say you "know", Stop with all these silly ideas that suggests extending local city buses onto highways.....

 

But we both know you won't do that.

 

Preaching to the choir......

 

You're proving my point for me....

 

Even if it's on a smaller scale, you aren't gonna get the masses to stop driving to the RR & taking buses to the RR instead....

Do I even have to bring up how embarrassingly low N73/74 usage is? (for example... which is a perfect illustration of the point btw)

Do you think increasing service on those pair of routes will increase usage?

Do you think you're gonna get ppl. to stop driving to LIRR Ronkonkoma & LIRR Huntington (again, for example) from their residences to those RR stations in any significant number by increasing bus service & expanding the service area of SCT (especially out there in Ronkonkoma)?

 

Nevermind me for a second - Let Lilbluefoxie emphatically tell you the answer to those questions.....

 

You grossly underestimate what the personal vehicle represents to suburbanites & the stigma that exists with buses..... You cannot ignore that, no matter what we transit advocates might want.....

 

That's exactly what you tried to do....

You tried to sell him the positives of public transportation and he wanted nothin to do with it.....

In the forms those routes take they are useless if all they do is meet the LIRR they will fail. Service area in ronkonkoma if you want to improve ridership then adjust routes to take more direct routes and adjust times to meet LIRR. Buses out there All you can do is reshape their routes to provide faster more direct service in suffolk and you can kill off lightly used lines to boot I will detail it soon after I am less busy.

 

 

Do I even have to bring up how embarrassingly low N73/74 usage is? (for example... which is a perfect illustration of the point btw)

 

The 73 and 74 serve Levittown which from day one was designed to be the quintessential suburb, with the curvy streets, 2 cars per family, a nice lil backyard, etc. 

 

Do you think increasing service on those pair of routes will increase usage?

 

Its the same thing with the 80 and 81, those areas go through middle class neighborhoods where people already own cars. Its not like the 57 and 58 which gets people that cant get a parking permit at Great Neck. Hicksville has parking even at 9am for the late commuters, and Bethpage has plenty of spots even at 10am in the far lot. With the city improving compared to what it was in the 70s and 80s when the suburbs were on the rise, the middle and upper middle class people who are going to want a more transit oriented environment would move initially to the city somewhere after they move out of their parents house. 

 

Do you think you're gonna get ppl. to stop driving to LIRR Ronkonkoma & LIRR Huntington (again, for example) from their residences to those RR stations in any significant number by increasing bus service & expanding the service area of SCT (especially out there in Ronkonkoma)?

 

More reliable Greenport service would get people to use the stations nearer where they live like Yaphank, Medford, and Riverhead. Same with  the diesel Montauk (east of Speonk) and Port Jeff segments. Thats why the Ronkonkoma branch is so busy because everyone from suffolk gravitates towards those stations because they have the most frequent service out of the Suffolk LIRR lines. The Greenport segment is a very long single tracked segment which makes it difficult to expand on service. The  diesel Port Jefferson part is also hampered by single tracked segments but there appears to be provisions for double tracks in spots. Montauk branch, it would be interesting to do a trial run, have the trains that terminate in Speonk, instead run to Southampton (which has extra tracks for them to turn trains on) Advertise it well and do a detailed count of how many people are riding it.

 

The advertising and getting the word out is key, if people dont know about it, theyre just gunna do what they always do, drive to Speonk, not knowing it goes further, and its going to look like noones riding the extension. If they did that with NICE ridership would be much higher same with what you say about trains. Greenport is reliable it just runs like complete SHIT!!!!! If I were the MTA I'd suspend it then literally repair and upgrade the tracks to allow better speeds then a 2nd track south of say matituck or riverhead all the way  to ronkonkoma Or electrify the line. Then the work will be fasttracked and done 7 days a week suspending the service of well 2 to 4 trains a day until work is completed. In the meanwhile shuttle buses will time with all ronkonkoma trains to greenport stopping at the stations. Ridership will be watched. Upgrade the capacity to allow more trains on montauk line fast track it a shuttle will serve the hamptons and go to ronkonkoma then business parks in Suffolk meant to link folks to the LIRR. Work will be fasttracked.

Your best one so far however I acknowledge how useless N73/74 and N80/81 are in their current forms But if modified they can do better and I am not talking about service levels either. I think N73 can be cut back and N80 should go bye bye with rerouted lines to take it's place.

 

You have a point. The forms they take are useless. Gardiners ave is so deserted at times I won't even see cars on it.

 

Ok, but I never said or implicated anything of the sort; Of course you have suburbanites that take mass transit; largely rail transportation over bus transportation.... In NJ, the bus system is as extensive as it is, due to the fact that the rail system isn't as extensive......

 

I'm saying those that move out to the suburbs generally don't look forward to taking buses, which they don't....... I mean, who moves to the suburbs to be dependent upon a bus..... You don't move out to the suburbs to be of a 0 car transportation household.... That was my point with that.

 

 

Agreed.... BrooklynBus spent too much time talking about SBS.

To be honest 63% of NJT riders own a car!!! Meaning those actually dependent on NJT to travel are in the minority.

 

That's right. The bus pretty much covers areas that the train can't access to put it in layman's terms.

Right. Most people aren't moving to Carteret solely for the purpose of using 116 lol, but that can be discussed in NJT forum.

 

Speaking of which, it's been a while since I've seen you post on the NJT forums lol.

 

 

you are very much correct.

[B35 via Church]

It's like talkin to a brick wall with this guy......

 

 

In the forms those routes take they are useless if all they do is meet the LIRR they will fail. Service area in ronkonkoma if you want to improve ridership then adjust routes to take more direct routes and adjust times to meet LIRR. Buses out there All you can do is reshape their routes to provide faster more direct service in suffolk and you can kill off lightly used lines to boot I will detail it soon after I am less busy.

 

Your best one so far however I acknowledge how useless N73/74 and N80/81 are in their current forms But if modified they can do better and I am not talking about service levels either. I think N73 can be cut back and N80 should go bye bye with rerouted lines to take it's place.

 

You have a point. The forms they take are useless. Gardiners ave is so deserted at times I won't even see cars on it.

Forms they take my ass.... So-call detail whatever you like....

No matter what you do with the bus routes, you're not taking the people out of their personal vehicles that want nothing to do with public transportation as a commuting method.... Bluefoxie & suburbanites that fit the same mold don't care to hear about how useful any singular route can or should become with any adjustments & modifications.... It does squat for their choice of commute; They don't give a damn....

 

The operative word here is CHOICE......

 

Do you have a learning disability or something? Seriously, All jokes aside & no insult intended.....

Or are you competent & are simply marching to the beat of your own drum & sticking your finger in your ear going lalalalalalalala to what's being said here.... How you managed to come up with that as a viable solution to anything dude just sat there & eloquently laid out is anyone's guess.... The point is - In the areas those aforementioned buses run through, they (and by they I mean the majority of people that live in those areas) have no use for them..... Like a tampon to us guys.... Do you get it now or what?

 

....and Let's not use this discussion as a springboard to put your silly ideas on display - You've done that in enough threads already.

[realizm]

Wow. I'm dodging intellectual bullets every time I click on this thread. Whew, I can't even add to this discussion, I'm at a loss of further input.

[qjtransitmaster]

It's like talkin to a brick wall with this guy......

 

 

Forms they take my ass.... So-call detail whatever you like....

No matter what you do with the bus routes, you're not taking the people out of their personal vehicles that want nothing to do with public transportation as a commuting method.... Bluefoxie & suburbanites that fit the same mold don't care to hear about how useful any singular route can or should become with any adjustments & modifications.... It does squat for their choice of commute; They don't give a damn....

 

The operative word here is CHOICE......

 

Do you have a learning disability or something? Seriously, All jokes aside & no insult intended.....

Or are you competent & are simply marching to the beat of your own drum & sticking your finger in your ear going lalalalalalalala to what's being said here.... How you managed to come up with that as a viable solution to anything dude just sat there & eloquently laid out is anyone's guess.... The point is - In the areas those aforementioned buses run through, they (and by they I mean the majority of people that live in those areas) have no use for them..... Like a tampon to us guys.... Do you get it now or what?

 

....and Let's not use this discussion as a springboard to put your silly ideas on display - You've done that in enough threads already.

err I've been to these areas the traffic patterns are completely different from these routes if they don't change then they deserve oblivion. I don't make silly ideas I just take concepts and refine them don't give a crap. How I came up with that as a solution is simple those buses just don't go anywhere of interest. Sunrise mall is basically dead. S broadway has business parks one problem hourly service is useless especially if the line doesn't even go through many residential areas. A bus that only goes to the LIRR from residential areas should run like W65/64 in order to be useful otherwise your wasting resources on off-peak service hours that carry nobody when those resources should be for rush peak trains when demand is highest not at midday for steady consistent service people are not using. It's schedule makes no sense. However there is an alternative one can use N70/72 to farmingdale for LIRR both more frequent than useless /N73/74.

 

I am very much competent I just don't give a crap about people I've never met in person that's all. 

[B35 via Church]

err I've been to these areas the traffic patterns are completely different from these routes if they don't change then they deserve oblivion. I don't make silly ideas I just take concepts and refine them don't give a crap. How I came up with that as a solution is simple those buses just don't go anywhere of interest. Sunrise mall is basically dead. S broadway has business parks one problem hourly service is useless especially if the line doesn't even go through many residential areas. A bus that only goes to the LIRR from residential areas should run like W65/64 in order to be useful otherwise your wasting resources on off-peak service hours that carry nobody when those resources should be for rush peak trains when demand is highest not at midday for steady consistent service people are not using. It's schedule makes no sense. However there is an alternative one can use N70/72 to farmingdale for LIRR both more frequent than useless /N73/74.

 

I am very much competent I just don't give a crap about people I've never met in person that's all. 

 

A brick wall indeed... A fortified one at that....

 

Don't know about what it is you're specifically babbling on about in this post, but the fact of the matter is you cannot create & assume demand for bus routes where:

 

a) none exists, and....

b) by judging traffic patterns....

 

Of course you're not gonna think your ideas are silly; Nobody else cares about what YOU think of YOUR ideas, is the reality here..... The more you continue spouting this crap that you have in this thread, the more incompetent you're making yourself out to be... Regardless if you don't give a crap about people you never met in person [which is a) irrelevant and b) bullshit, because you wouldn't be responding to these posts on this forum if you didn't]....

 

It isn't that the buses don't go anywhere of interest, and you can continue to think otherwise - that's not gonna make it anymore true...

 

I will repeat this as many times as I have to... people generally don't move out to the suburbs to take buses - As many motorists that you see out on Long Island (for example) compared to how utilized the buses are out there overall (NICE AND SCT) is proof of this.... Like it or not.....

 

At this point, it is clear that you're trying to convince yourself of something that is flat out untrue.....

 

.....And you're supposed to be more knowledegable on regional transportation... Shame on you.... Lol !

[bobtehpanda]

Sorry for bringing this argument up again now that it's over, but I feel like a previous argument about why Long Islanders pay New York City sales tax, payroll tax, MTA subsidies, etc. was approaching it from a completely erroneous perspective. Simply put, Long Island is only what it is because of New York.

Think about it - there are people who live in Long Island who work in the city, yes, and they benefit from city services like fire and police, transportation, etc. Yet at the same time, even those who do not ever venture into the city benefit from the city's existence. Some offices in Long Island provide back-office functions for firms with main or regional offices in Manhattan. Trucks making deliveries in Nassau and Suffolk must go through the city, taking their toll on the highways and increasing air pollution in city neighborhoods. Shopping malls, restaurants, and small businesses are often frequented by those who are paid by their offices in the city. Long Island also has access to the wide variety of domestic and international destinations offered at Newark, LaGuardia, and JFK. As much as Long Islanders may not like it, New York City is the anchor that provides them their prosperity.

 

Take Detroit. Detroit used to be a big, bustling city, but then its suburbs stole residents and jobs from the core, often using giant tax breaks. Detroit nowadays is a former shell of itself, with many neighborhoods abandoned and without fire protection, and is a national symbol of urban decay. Sure, the suburbs are fine on paper, but they've got a serious long term problem - there aren't that many new businesses or residents who want to set up shop with them. Walk up to any random American and ask if they can name a suburb of Detroit, and they will probably give you a blank stare. But ask them what Detroit is, and they will all know it as a blighted area that is past its days of glory. No one wants to locate in a region with a rotten core - it's bleak and depressing. Suburban leaders in Detroit have woken up to this reality, and they are working together to help revitalize the city.

 

Now let's look back at Long Island. Can anyone honestly say that the suburbs of Long Island would be self-sustaining and prosperous if there's no New York City there, or if New York City was a Detroit-style wasteland? Would its residents be paid the same, have the same access to jobs, have the same wide array of opportunities in cultural, commercial, and transportation options? Probably not. Here's a fact: New York City definitely gives more to the state government than it receives back, in the form of taxes on residents and companies based in the city. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the counties which benefit from New York City's presence contribute something to help make up for this difference.

 

The New York City metro area is a regional ecosystem - there are measurable benefits that its suburbs get from their connection to the city. As much as they would like to, suburbanites do not live in a bubble, and they have to deal with the upsides and the downsides of such a connection.

[bobtehpanda]

err I've been to these areas the traffic patterns are completely different from these routes if they don't change then they deserve oblivion. I don't make silly ideas I just take concepts and refine them don't give a crap. How I came up with that as a solution is simple those buses just don't go anywhere of interest. Sunrise mall is basically dead. S broadway has business parks one problem hourly service is useless especially if the line doesn't even go through many residential areas. A bus that only goes to the LIRR from residential areas should run like W65/64 in order to be useful otherwise your wasting resources on off-peak service hours that carry nobody when those resources should be for rush peak trains when demand is highest not at midday for steady consistent service people are not using. It's schedule makes no sense. However there is an alternative one can use N70/72 to farmingdale for LIRR both more frequent than useless /N73/74.

 

I am very much competent I just don't give a crap about people I've never met in person that's all. 

 

You cannot have extremely frequent service to business parks - it's a matter of geometry.

 

Your standard suburban office park is a low-rise, monolithic block surrounded by oceans of parking. The street that it is fronting might not have a sidewalk - if it does, it's two feet wide, four feet tops. There is probably no street furniture aside from the occasional stop sign. The street itself is probably four to six lanes wide, with a posted limit of about 30-45, but everyone on the road is doing 50. There is no crosswalk in sight - if there is one, the light probably only turns green if you push the beg button that might not be working.

 

To get to a bus stop from this road, you have to cross a giant ocean of parking to a concrete, monolithic block, with very few shops or street life to speak of. Even if bus service was every minute, no one would want to make this sort of walk - it's unhospitable and depressing. In the summer it's too hot in the blazing sun, and in the winter it's too cold. There's nowhere to sit as you wait for the bus, the parking lot is full of people who could hit you with a car, and the traffic on the nearby road could easily jump the sidewalk and pin you to a nearby tree. Crossing the street to the opposite bus stop is unsafe at best, and illegal at worst. Most people do not want to deal with this - it doesn't matter if you do. Alternatively, the bus could weave in and out and stop at the door of every business park along the route, but that would take so much extra time, and delay so many passengers, to make the route useless and unusable.

 

There is a reason corridors like this have "subpar" transit service - that is literally all they can support, because very few people are willing to make that kind of grinding journey twice a day, five days a week, 52 weeks a year, not counting sick leave and vacation.

 

Another thing - transit service will never, ever perfectly match traffic patterns, nor should it attempt to - the best way to match traffic patterns is to call everyone a cab, but at that point everyone might as well own a car anyways.

[CenSin]

Sorry for bringing this argument up again now that it's over, but I feel like a previous argument about why Long Islanders pay New York City sales tax, payroll tax, MTA subsidies, etc. was approaching it from a completely erroneous perspective. Simply put, Long Island is only what it is because of New York.

 

Think about it - there are people who live in Long Island who work in the city, yes, and they benefit from city services like fire and police, transportation, etc. Yet at the same time, even those who do not ever venture into the city benefit from the city's existence. Some offices in Long Island provide back-office functions for firms with main or regional offices in Manhattan. Trucks making deliveries in Nassau and Suffolk must go through the city, taking their toll on the highways and increasing air pollution in city neighborhoods. Shopping malls, restaurants, and small businesses are often frequented by those who are paid by their offices in the city. Long Island also has access to the wide variety of domestic and international destinations offered at Newark, LaGuardia, and JFK. As much as Long Islanders may not like it, New York City is the anchor that provides them their prosperity.

 

Take Detroit. Detroit used to be a big, bustling city, but then its suburbs stole residents and jobs from the core, often using giant tax breaks. Detroit nowadays is a former shell of itself, with many neighborhoods abandoned and without fire protection, and is a national symbol of urban decay. Sure, the suburbs are fine on paper, but they've got a serious long term problem - there aren't that many new businesses or residents who want to set up shop with them. Walk up to any random American and ask if they can name a suburb of Detroit, and they will probably give you a blank stare. But ask them what Detroit is, and they will all know it as a blighted area that is past its days of glory. No one wants to locate in a region with a rotten core - it's bleak and depressing. Suburban leaders in Detroit have woken up to this reality, and they are working together to help revitalize the city.

 

Now let's look back at Long Island. Can anyone honestly say that the suburbs of Long Island would be self-sustaining and prosperous if there's no New York City there, or if New York City was a Detroit-style wasteland? Would its residents be paid the same, have the same access to jobs, have the same wide array of opportunities in cultural, commercial, and transportation options? Probably not. Here's a fact: New York City definitely gives more to the state government than it receives back, in the form of taxes on residents and companies based in the city. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the counties which benefit from New York City's presence contribute something to help make up for this difference.

 

The New York City metro area is a regional ecosystem - there are measurable benefits that its suburbs get from their connection to the city. As much as they would like to, suburbanites do not live in a bubble, and they have to deal with the upsides and the downsides of such a connection.

Keep in mind that you could grow or shrink this argument. You could even say the U.S., or even the world, would be a much different place without the productiveness of New York City. I am not saying another city would not have taken its place, but if New York City were wiped off the map, world economies are going to feel it. Should everyone around the world chip in for New York City's public services? Probably not, but you are at least right about the suburbs surrounding New York City—everything that happens in a suburb pretty much depends on the existence of a "sponsor" city and it's only right to contribute back.