Retired South Ferry Station May Reopen Temporarily

[CenSin]

If scheduling is right, trains will not have to wait for the crossover.

You think a line that runs from the Bronx to the very southern tip of Manhattan will be able to maintain scheduling? As long as the switches are at grade level (a.k.a.: not a flying junction), waiting is going to be frequent.

[Snowblock]

If the loop station does get open for passenger service, the MTA is going to use the new mezzanine so that it can keep access to the elevators and in-system transfer to the . The loop platform is on the same vertical level as the new mezz but right now there's only a standard-width door between the platform and mezz, certainly not enough for the crowds. They're going to have to tear down the wall in order to open it up.

The original exit that went into the ferry terminal is GONE GONE GONE and no amount of wishing is going to bring it back. It makes NO sense to even try to reopen that exit, as the only advantage is has over the new South Ferry mezz is that it exited right into the Ferry Terminal, but I can't see either the MTA or the NY DOT justifying tearing apart the ferry terminal to reopen that exit when they could still use the new mezz exit.

[lilbluefoxie]

so where is that connection on the platform? If I remember right from photos (I never actually went to the old South Ferry station when it was in service) the stairs up to the old mezzanie in the ferry building was in the middle of the platform, both ends having those NO Exit signs.

[Far Rock Depot]

so where is that connection on the platform? If I remember right from photos (I never actually went to the old South Ferry station when it was in service) the stairs up to the old mezzanie in the ferry building was in the middle of the platform, both ends having those NO Exit signs.

that's what I would like to know. the platform of the old loop is on the southern side of the station. upon exiting the train, passengers went up a flight or two of stairs and exited into the terminal. there were no other exits. there was no mezzanine to the terminal. the fare control was adjacent to the terminal. a crossover/under would be needed. so.....how woild this be done if they were to reopen the old loop station? and I've used the old station from childhood till closing and that's about 30 years.

 

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[ttcsubwayfan]

Perhaps it was added in afterwards, in the event the loop station necessitated reopening?

[Far Rock Depot]

Perhaps it was added in afterwards, in the event the loop station necessitated reopening?

the question is where? And in all honesty, the old loop station isn't that deep compared to the new one.

as a matter of fact, the new station is under the loop technically

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[ttcsubwayfan]

I don't know. I've only been to the mezzanine of the new station once and I didn't investigate all that well, but I imagine they'd want to keep access to the station. IIRC the signals department used the loop for storage following its closure, so it'd be quite inconvenient if they couldn't access it.

 

I also heard that there's a crew room in the inner loop station for crews. Supposedly all of the inner loop has been boarded over except for a single opening.

[lilbluefoxie]

I don't know. I've only been to the mezzanine of the new station once and I didn't investigate all that well, but I imagine they'd want to keep access to the station. IIRC the signals department used the loop for storage following its closure, so it'd be quite inconvenient if they couldn't access it.

 

I also heard that there's a crew room in the inner loop station for crews. Supposedly all of the inner loop has been boarded over except for a single opening.

 

That is true regarding the Inner loop. I rode through that during a GO that had it extended to Bowling Green, it was running through the loop.

[checkmatechamp13]

Both stations have their pros and cons. The loop can turn trains around quicker and is physically closer to the terminal (with direct access inside the terminal. But its only a five car station, with a gap filler, and no ADA(like most of the system). The new Station can hold 2 10-car trains, has ADA access, and provides an in-system transfer to the BMT. But trains enter at 10MPH and trains may have to wait for a train crossing over. Both do offer one pro, service to a location where multiple transit options are available. But one thing is clear, a station at SF helps riders. Period. 

 

I don't know how much faster the trains were able to enter the old station, though, especially with the curves.

 

In any case, if it was a station in a residential neighborhood or something, I'd say 100% to just let it go. But since it's a station where most people are making a transfer, and those few minutes saved can mean the difference between making and missing the transfer, well, it's not as easy a decision.

 

Personally, as I've mentioned in the past, I don't think they should rebuild either, because if in another few years, we get hit with another big storm, it'll be a waste. It would be a different story if the location were different, but it's right by the water. But since rehabbing the old one is cheaper than rebuilding the new one, I would personally just say to bring back the old South Ferry and forget about the new one. (And this is coming from somebody who lives on SI).

[Grand Concourse]

I do agree that the loop is slow, but the new platform required trains to wait outside the station to let the other train clear one of the tracks. the trains also have to wait for the next crew to take the next shift, so even the wait at chambers wasnt the end of the world, plus it did allow riders from the express extra time to transfer to the local.

Which has been my point as well. I would imagine even the fed will say 'eff it' if another super storm hits and costs another several hundred millions of dollars. so I can only hope they build those supposed covers to try and block out most of the water, but I think it was doomed from the start. $400 mil and they couldn't keep out the leaks? (No not counting the flood from sandy).

[Quill Depot]

The needs to look and realize. The aspect of money. If the new South Ferry takes hundreds of millions to reopen, why reopen it. It is just too much money, that comes out of taxpayers pockets.

 

First of all, do you pay a lot of taxes?  Well, your paying for the new South Ferry station to be fixed. Hundreds of millions, that isn't saved up. It is acquired through a process called  "borrowing." The government will "borrow" money and never pay it back. Then they'll "ask" you for it, in a process called taxes.

 

Secondly, renovating the old loop station costs much less. It is already ready. It only needs a little TLC, dusting, etc. It's capacity is still very close to the new stations capacity. ADA people were absolutely fine before the new station was put in tact. ADA people are too much of a minority.

 

In conclusion, it makes more sense to reopen the undamaged South Ferry loop station, rather than fixing the new station.

[Drag0nflamez]

The needs to look and realize. The aspect of money. If the new South Ferry takes hundreds of millions to reopen, why reopen it. It is just too much money, that comes out of taxpayers pockets.

 

First of all, do you pay a lot of taxes?  Well, your paying for the new South Ferry station to be fixed. Hundreds of millions, that isn't saved up. It is acquired through a process called  "borrowing." The government will "borrow" money and never pay it back. Then they'll "ask" you for it, in a process called taxes.

 

Secondly, renovating the old loop station costs much less. It is already ready. It only needs a little TLC, dusting, etc. It's capacity is still very close to the new stations capacity. ADA people were absolutely fine before the new station was put in tact. ADA people are too much of a minority.

 

In conclusion, it makes more sense to reopen the undamaged South Ferry loop station, rather than fixing the new station.

Effectively saying F*** you to disabled people will cause a huge shitstorm and PR disaster for the MTA, and severe curves, coupled with a platform that isn't level with the train floor isn't quite accessible. Also, the gap fillers would probably need to be replaced.

[ttcsubwayfan]

The needs to look and realize. The aspect of money. If the new South Ferry takes hundreds of millions to reopen, why reopen it. It is just too much money, that comes out of taxpayers pockets.

 

First of all, do you pay a lot of taxes?  Well, your paying for the new South Ferry station to be fixed. Hundreds of millions, that isn't saved up. It is acquired through a process called  "borrowing." The government will "borrow" money and never pay it back. Then they'll "ask" you for it, in a process called taxes.

 

Secondly, renovating the old loop station costs much less. It is already ready. It only needs a little TLC, dusting, etc. It's capacity is still very close to the new stations capacity. ADA people were absolutely fine before the new station was put in tact. ADA people are too much of a minority.

 

In conclusion, it makes more sense to reopen the undamaged South Ferry loop station, rather than fixing the new station.

 

You ever take into consideration that the only reason the loop is being reopened now is because it's a temporary fix? It would be entirely illegal to reopen the loop station full time, unless if they were to install some form of ADA access, and evidently they did not wish to do that, if they built a new station.

[Mr Railfan]

You ever take into consideration that the only reason the loop is being reopened now is because it's a temporary fix? It would be entirely illegal to reopen the loop station full time, unless if they were to install some form of ADA access, and evidently they did not wish to do that, if they built a new station.

 

 

Even though a temporary fix, the loop may have ADA access via the doorway (or soon to be pathway) to the new Whitehall/south ferry complex. I just took a ride through the loop and they ave all the lights on, wall tiles restored and scrubbed of dirt and are working on what looks like opening the service entrance to the south ferry/whitehall complex near the [10] Car marker. The old south ferry  looks like its on the same level as the new lobby of the complex, To make it ADA accessible all they would need to do is place a ramp leading down a few feet to the new lobby.  Now ADA access to trains via Gap fillers is a different story...

[Quill Depot]

As much as I feel bad for them, the ADA can use alternatives. There are many, including buses. The subway wasn't meant for ADA people, why change that. It costs a lot of money to start that change. Money is a huge concern here. If we had a person for every 100 dollars we are in debt, we'd have more people than the world as we know it. The ADA may be raged, but for the general people, reopening the loop station until the can fix up the new station makes huge sense.

[CenSin]

Effectively saying F*** you to disabled people will cause a huge shitstorm and PR disaster for the MTA, and severe curves, coupled with a platform that isn't level with the train floor isn't quite accessible. Also, the gap fillers would probably need to be replaced.

Effectively making stations accessible is like saying "f*** you" to the taxpayers.

Effectively preventing the station from opening because of accessibility requirements is like saying "f*** you" to all the able-bodied.

[ttcsubwayfan]

The ADA may be raged, but for the general people, reopening the loop station until the can fix up the new station makes huge sense.

 

Which is what they're doing right now...

 

The general attitude I'm getting from some poster in this thread indicate that people with disabilities have less rights than the able-bodied person. Why are we so adamantly opposed to any form of ADA access to subway stations? If installing elevators in stations is saying F you to the taxpayers, then shouldn't having low floor buses be the same? Why pay for a bus with less capacity when we could have purchased buses like the Orion V, Millenium RTS or the NABI 416?

[Art Vandelay]

 

This is not true. The new south ferry station supports about 7 more trains per hour

You have that reversed. 

The old station was not a limiting factor with regards to train capacity. The new station caps the line at a theoretical 24 trains per hour, however it has never received such and has had trouble turning more than 19. 

[Quill Depot]

You have that reversed. 

The old station was not a limiting factor with regards to train capacity. The new station caps the line at a theoretical 24 trains per hour, however it has never received such and has had trouble turning more than 19. 

 

When trains stop at the old station, it has a limited capacity.

[bobtehpanda]

You have that reversed. 

The old station was not a limiting factor with regards to train capacity. The new station caps the line at a theoretical 24 trains per hour, however it has never received such and has had trouble turning more than 19. 

 

+1

 

If anything, a loop is the most effective terminal configuration, because motormen don't need to move to the other side of the train to get the train out. The only problem with old South Ferry was that the platform was on the curviest part of the loop, which limited the passenger capacity because you could only use the first couple of cars and it needed the platform extenders.

 

As much as I feel bad for them, the ADA can use alternatives. There are many, including buses. The subway wasn't meant for ADA people, why change that. It costs a lot of money to start that change. Money is a huge concern here. If we had a person for every 100 dollars we are in debt, we'd have more people than the world as we know it. The ADA may be raged, but for the general people, reopening the loop station until the can fix up the new station makes huge sense.

 

 

Effectively making stations accessible is like saying "f*** you" to the taxpayers.

Effectively preventing the station from opening because of accessibility requirements is like saying "f*** you" to all the able-bodied.

 

In regards to ADA access, FDA will probably give a waiver because it's only temporary.

 

I don't approve of this whole screw-the-disabled mentality, though (and ADA is a law, not a term for people...). The problem is not the ADA itself - London isn't going broke in its slow conversion to full accessibility, and their system dates back to the 1890s. The problem is that the MTA keeps overpaying for everything. When quoted for the price of a Elmhurst LIRR station reactivation, MTA gave a cost estimate of $20M for the station, and $30M for the station with an elevator. Now, I'm not really a construction expert, but a elevator that's above ground, requires no eminent domain, and goes up one level should not cost $10M. If the MTA could keep its costs reasonable, then ADA compliance wouldn't be an issue.

[Amtrak7]

Even though a temporary fix, the loop may have ADA access via the doorway (or soon to be pathway) to the new Whitehall/south ferry complex. I just took a ride through the loop and they ave all the lights on, wall tiles restored and scrubbed of dirt and are working on what looks like opening the service entrance to the south ferry/whitehall complex near the [10] Car marker. The old south ferry  looks like its on the same level as the new lobby of the complex, To make it ADA accessible all they would need to do is place a ramp leading down a few feet to the new lobby.  Now ADA access to trains via Gap fillers is a different story...

 

Why would gap fillers pose an ADA issue? They don't create a step onto the train that a wheechair can't go over....

 

And how big is that service opening going to be made? By the looks of the video they're ripping off a considerable amount of tile.

[Snowblock]

It's the same problem that the Times Square Shuttle has - the floor of the train is a couple inches higher than the gap fillers are. What prevents it from being ADA compatible is the gap (still a big enough gap to cause a problem) and the height difference. I've seen people in wheelchairs try to board at non-ADA stations (how they got there in the first place is something I wonder) and they often have severe difficulty getting past the gap. Part of the ADA process is making a disabled boarding area, where the platform and train are at the same height and there is a small enough gap for the wheel to not get stuck. There is really no way that the South Ferry Loop can overcome this, so they will have to put up signs on the elevators saying "South Ferry platform NOT ADA compatible", similar to that steep ramp they have going to Port Authority.

[ttcsubwayfan]

(how they got there in the first place is something I wonder)

 

Perhaps they boarded at an accessible station and got off at a non-compliant one for whatever reason? (Mechanical problems, disturbed lunatic on the train, etc)

[bobtehpanda]

Perhaps they boarded at an accessible station and got off at a non-compliant one for whatever reason? (Mechanical problems, disturbed lunatic on the train, etc)

 

Transferring to trains on the same platform might be a big one.

[Drag0nflamez]

It's the same problem that the Times Square Shuttle has - the floor of the train is a couple inches higher than the gap fillers are. What prevents it from being ADA compatible is the gap (still a big enough gap to cause a problem) and the height difference. I've seen people in wheelchairs try to board at non-ADA stations (how they got there in the first place is something I wonder) and they often have severe difficulty getting past the gap. Part of the ADA process is making a disabled boarding area, where the platform and train are at the same height and there is a small enough gap for the wheel to not get stuck. There is really no way that the South Ferry Loop can overcome this, so they will have to put up signs on the elevators saying "South Ferry platform NOT ADA compatible", similar to that steep ramp they have going to Port Authority.

The best solution, is, indeed to have a raised part of the platform around the fifth and the sixth car at every station. Raising the entire platform is prohibitively expensive and a waste of money.