Retired South Ferry Station May Reopen Temporarily

[Grand Concourse]

Well if they ever get the funds to reconstruct the ts s platforms, so they can hold a full 5 car train and eliminate the curve, then there probably is no need to do anything to the current platforms. As for the gap fillers there, they are a few inches below the platform and are useless other than to prevent a person from falling all the way down thru the gap.

[bobtehpanda]

Well if they ever get the funds to reconstruct the ts s platforms, so they can hold a full 5 car train and eliminate the curve, then there probably is no need to do anything to the current platforms. As for the gap fillers there, they are a few inches below the platform and are useless other than to prevent a person from falling all the way down thru the gap.

 

Personally, I've always wondered why they went with a new set of platforms below the loop (and with no tail tracks to boot), rather than just move the platforms back so that they're on a relatively straighter segment just before the curve.

 

Gap fillers must be expensive to maintain given their relative rarity, but they're there to catch people. As stated before, they're also the reason why South Ferry's loop station wasn't accessible, and even given MTA's bad faith towards the ADA and the disabled community, if they want FTA funding for future phases of SAS and any other subway expansions and want to avoid countless lawsuits, they're going to have to make the 100 or so "key" stations accessible.

[Grand Concourse]

I guess they didn't want to make the platform too close towards the rector street station and I am going to guess that they had very little room past the blocks (edge of manhattan). I personally don't hate the new platform, but I still think they could've done a lot better than wasting $400 mil on one station.

 

That said the point about making the 'key stations' accessible is a good point. however it is bad as it is playing with so much money just to win political brownie points.

[Wallyhorse]

That is true regarding the Inner loop. I rode through that during a GO that had it extended to Bowling Green, it was running through the loop.

True for now, however, the newer technology trains could allow if necessary for even the inner loop of old SF to eventually rehabbed and reopened (and made fully ADA compliant) since such newer trains, once the norm on the Lexington line could then be programmed to only open the center doors on the inner loop station.  Not that it will ever happen, but it is something the newer trains likely will allow eventually.

[Fresh Pond]

True for now, however, the newer technology trains could allow if necessary for even the inner loop of old SF to eventually rehabbed and reopened (and made fully ADA compliant) since such newer trains, once the norm on the Lexington line could then be programmed to only open the center doors on the inner loop station. Not that it will ever happen, but it is something the newer trains likely will allow eventually.

No...just no...

[bobtehpanda]

True for now, however, the newer technology trains could allow if necessary for even the inner loop of old SF to eventually rehabbed and reopened (and made fully ADA compliant) since such newer trains, once the norm on the Lexington line could then be programmed to only open the center doors on the inner loop station.  Not that it will ever happen, but it is something the newer trains likely will allow eventually.

 

That's not the problem, but okay...

(I'm pretty positive that the disabled can tell which doors are opening, in any case.)

[Drag0nflamez]

True for now, however, the newer technology trains could allow if necessary for even the inner loop of old SF to eventually rehabbed and reopened (and made fully ADA compliant) since such newer trains, once the norm on the Lexington line could then be programmed to only open the center doors on the inner loop station.  Not that it will ever happen, but it is something the newer trains likely will allow eventually.

No, sharp curves will be an ADA problem, whatever you do. If you have a solution for every large gap on a curve, mind solving this one? It's a busy line, and large interchange station, the trains are automatically controlled (with a person on the front of the train), straightening is impossible due to the Bank of England's vaults...

 

I can assure everyone in this thread that he either won't respond, or will respond with just closing the end doors which causes massive problems.

[Grand Concourse]

He's been on about the inner loop since my sub chat days. It's a lost cause. He'll still bring up the BG s etc. smh

[Eric B]

Wow, the Tub'e safety standards are much less than ours! We would never allow a gap that big, and if we did, we would just have had South Ferry and 14th St Union Sq without the gap fillers, and allow IRT cars to pick up passengers on BMT/IND patforms. (I think the gaps in the picture are bigger than those).

[ttcsubwayfan]

Depends on the station. While doing research for a project that involved cars to A division specs running on B division spec lines, I've noticed that how big the gap is between the train and the platform is dependant on what station it is.

 

Examples:

 

http://nycsubway.org/perl/show?85992

 

http://nycsubway.org/perl/show?130007

 

Actually, with the huge gap in the bottom photo, I have to wonder how much space there is when a B division train is there.

[Eric B]

The gaps at Mineola used to be bigger than that. (They since changed them, I think, after some incident a few years ago).

[B to Brighton]

I don't post here often, but at a first moment i saw people foaming around the SF Loop station.

Now we all know it may come back to service for a while, but it isn't enough, now the foaming is around the inner loop.

What is the next? Worth Street?

 

The inner loop is closed and it won't come back. Everyone knows it, it isn't even necessary to explain why. 

And they won't spend money allowing trains to open only the center doors since there isn't any station in the system requiring it. 

 

About the London Underground picture: their system has a lot of huge gaps, some are smaller, some are really big.

Aldgate station (Circle Line) is also a problem there. Gap fillers would be welcome, those gaps are really annoying.

[Mr Railfan]

No, sharp curves will be an ADA problem, whatever you do. If you have a solution for every large gap on a curve, mind solving this one? It's a busy line, and large interchange station, the trains are automatically controlled (with a person on the front of the train), straightening is impossible due to the Bank of England's vaults...

 

I can assure everyone in this thread that he either won't respond, or will respond with just closing the end doors which causes massive problems.

Isn't that the station where they play "Mind the Gap" over and over again? 

 

I don't post here often, but at a first moment i saw people foaming around the SF Loop station.

Now we all know it may come back to service for a while, but it isn't enough, now the foaming is around the inner loop.

What is the next? Worth Street?

 

The inner loop is closed and it won't come back. Everyone knows it, it isn't even necessary to explain why. 

And they won't spend money allowing trains to open only the center doors since there isn't any station in the system requiring it. 

 

About the London Underground picture: their system has a lot of huge gaps, some are smaller, some are really big.

Aldgate station (Circle Line) is also a problem there. Gap fillers would be welcome, those gaps are really annoying.

The only person foaming about the inner loop is wallyhorse. We were here discussing how ADA Compatible the outer loop (the one that's bound to reopen) is. 

[Grand Concourse]

I don't post here often, but at a first moment i saw people foaming around the SF Loop station.

Now we all know it may come back to service for a while, but it isn't enough, now the foaming is around the inner loop.

What is the next? Worth Street?

 

The inner loop is closed and it won't come back. Everyone knows it, it isn't even necessary to explain why. 

And they won't spend money allowing trains to open only the center doors since there isn't any station in the system requiring it. 

 

About the London Underground picture: their system has a lot of huge gaps, some are smaller, some are really big.

Aldgate station (Circle Line) is also a problem there. Gap fillers would be welcome, those gaps are really annoying.

only one person wants the inner loop opened, the rest of us are fine with just the outer loop and as a temporary basis.

[Drag0nflamez]

Isn't that the station where they play "Mind the Gap" over and over again?

More stations. While Bank arguably has the biggest gap, there are way more. From the top of my head, Embankment (still even on the original early 1970s announcement, northbound Northern), Piccadilly Circus (Bakerloo), Victoria, Liverpool Street (Central), Paddington (Bakerloo), Waterloo (Bakerloo), Bank (Central), Tower Hill (Circle & District)...

[Wallyhorse]

only one person wants the inner loop opened, the rest of us are fine with just the outer loop and as a temporary basis.

I never said I wanted the inner loop station opened, I was saying that new technology in the cars of the future would make it if it were to ever become necessary down the road to do so since such cars could be programmed to open only the center doors there (and at other stations, only certain doors, which also would allow for greater flexibility in number of cars used on some lines). BIg difference.

 

As for the gap fillers, yes, that will always be an issue, but I also know the very front spot on the uptown express on 14th Street-Union Square has quite a gap and (when I was last there) no fillier as well.  Interesting on the pic of the London Underground, that one does look like a real problem for ADA.

[B to Brighton]

only one person wants the inner loop opened, the rest of us are fine with just the outer loop and as a temporary basis.

 

I know that, i just don't want to be rude and say the name.

Anyway, this one person should understand only one thing: MTA has enough things to spend money, things which are really needed. The only issue with the number of cars/doors (whatever) is the 75 footers on the eastern division, and it's so simple to do: don't run 75 footers there.

[bobtehpanda]

True for now, however, the newer technology trains could allow if necessary for even the inner loop of old SF to eventually rehabbed and reopened (and made fully ADA compliant) since such newer trains, once the norm on the Lexington line could then be programmed to only open the center doors on the inner loop station.  Not that it will ever happen, but it is something the newer trains likely will allow eventually.

 

 

I never said I wanted the inner loop station opened, I was saying that new technology in the cars of the future would make it if it were to ever become necessary down the road to do so since such cars could be programmed to open only the center doors there (and at other stations, only certain doors, which also would allow for greater flexibility in number of cars used on some lines). BIg difference.

 

As for the gap fillers, yes, that will always be an issue, but I also know the very front spot on the uptown express on 14th Street-Union Square has quite a gap and (when I was last there) no fillier as well.  Interesting on the pic of the London Underground, that one does look like a real problem for ADA.

 

First thing - the UK is not under the jurisdiction of the United States, so they're not subject to ADA (but they have similar legislation.) However, they are in the process of making most stations accessible where possible. Not to mention, London's Underground is an older system that has smaller platforms and almost no express tracks, so certain stations have to be made exit only or entrance only during rush hour. (The MTA is considering doing something similar if the Midtown East rezoning is done without any sort of capital improvements to the Lexington Line or SAS Phase III.)

 

Second thing - my biggest issue isn't your mention of bringing back services to the Inner Loop (although why anyone would want a two-stop shuttle to run when it saves almost no time is beyond me). It's the fact that you said automating trains and allowing them to open only the center doors would make a platform ADA compliant. First of all, there have been cars that could open their center doors only, and there have been automated trains for at least 50 years now. None of those solve the biggest issue with ADA compliance - the gap. Imagine you are someone confined to a wheelchair. It doesn't really matter if the train is being driven by a person, a computer, or a rock if your wheelchair's wheels are going to get stuck in between the platform and the train. Gap fillers don't exactly solve the problem either - I'm not exactly sure how wide the distance between the grates on the gap fillers are, but if a wheelchair wheel gets stuck in there, what's going to happen when the gap filler closes before they can get out in time? Not to mention, there isn't exactly a burgeoning demand for gap fillers, which have to be made for a specific station's curvature and train lines, so obtaining them and spare parts isn't going to be cheap. For a station with such curves, the only real solution for ADA compliance would be platform attendants to assist those in wheelchairs (and the blind, because they can't step over a gap that they can't see), but that is never going to happen.

 

I really don't care about if you're going to "foam" about things that are never going to happen, but please don't dress up your fantasy as a solution for a group of people who are physically incapable of performing tasks that most humans take for granted. They need actual solutions to problems...

 

The gaps at Mineola used to be bigger than that. (They since changed them, I think, after some incident a few years ago).

 

There were a couple of incidents a few years back where people were falling through the gaps on LIRR platforms (uninjured, thankfully). I believe the Daily News or some other paper actually took a ruler to the gap at Woodside and came up with a measurement of six inches, which is definitely way more than a train sways laterally on the track. I would hope that they made the gaps smaller than that, but I'm not 100% sure.

[Amtrak7]

There were a couple of incidents a few years back where people were falling through the gaps on LIRR platforms (uninjured, thankfully). I believe the Daily News or some other paper actually took a ruler to the gap at Woodside and came up with a measurement of six inches, which is definitely way more than a train sways laterally on the track. I would hope that they made the gaps smaller than that, but I'm not 100% sure.

They've added threshold plates / filler strips to electric cars and most station platforms. Most gaps (Mineola included) are 4 inches or less. Never been to Syosset before. As to the diesel equipment though, one has to be careful, as they don't have the threshold plates. Once, I was boarding a diesel AM peak train...when I had one foot in the train and the other on the platform somebody tried to exit the train. Not paying attention, I backed up, slipped, and my foot fell into the gap If it wasn't for the people around me and the crew handrail next to the door it would've been much worse!

[Drag0nflamez]

I never said I wanted the inner loop station opened, I was saying that new technology in the cars of the future would make it if it were to ever become necessary down the road to do so since such cars could be programmed to open only the center doors there (and at other stations, only certain doors, which also would allow for greater flexibility in number of cars used on some lines). BIg difference.

 

As for the gap fillers, yes, that will always be an issue, but I also know the very front spot on the uptown express on 14th Street-Union Square has quite a gap and (when I was last there) no fillier as well.  Interesting on the pic of the London Underground, that one does look like a real problem for ADA.

Not ADA, the DDA/Equality Act.

 

First thing - the UK is not under the jurisdiction of the United States, so they're not subject to ADA (but they have similar legislation.) However, they are in the process of making most stations accessible where possible. Not to mention, London's Underground is an older system that has smaller platforms and almost no express tracks, so certain stations have to be made exit only or entrance only during rush hour. (The MTA is considering doing something similar if the Midtown East rezoning is done without any sort of capital improvements to the Lexington Line or SAS Phase III.)

One thing, LU also has a tendency for cancelling step-free access schemes, but if a station gets a rebuild, step-free access is usually provided. (Except at Shepherd's Bush, which became a scandal of it's own in 2008 IIRC, it was closed for years and then reopened without the promised elevators).

 

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that TfL (basically London's MTA) has been practically bankrupt for a long time, yet they are still busy building new lines and rebuilding stations.

[AndrewJC]

Then what was the point of the MTA constructing a new South Ferry station in the first place may I ask? Wasn't it so that they can increase the TPH on the in the first place hence the project among other reasons (handling increased capacity of riders boarding and departing the station)? My apologies Mr Vandeley, but I completely failed to comprehend with your reasoning on this.....

 

The new South Ferry station was built as a way to burn federal dollars that had to be spent in lower Manhattan. The Staten Island politicians loved it, too.

 

You have that reversed. 

The old station was not a limiting factor with regards to train capacity. The new station caps the line at a theoretical 24 trains per hour, however it has never received such and has had trouble turning more than 19. 

 

Does it really?

 

When trains stop at the old station, it has a limited capacity.

 

The max frequency of 1 service hasn't changed in many years - the same 19 trains per hour have run with both South Ferry stations.

 

Why would gap fillers pose an ADA issue? They don't create a step onto the train that a wheechair can't go over....

 

They have wide grooves that could catch wheelchair wheels.

[bobtehpanda]

The new South Ferry station was built as a way to burn federal dollars that had to be spent in lower Manhattan. The Staten Island politicians loved it, too.

 

 

Does it really?

 

 

The max frequency of 1 service hasn't changed in many years - the same 19 trains per hour have run with both South Ferry stations.

 

 

They have wide grooves that could catch wheelchair wheels.

 

I believe 24 TPH is the limit for a two-track terminal with no tail tracks, assuming no human error and a normal turnaround time. That's usually not the case.

 

The main benefit of the loop over a terminal with crossovers is that you don't need the train operator to walk to the back of the train, so theoretically you could turn it around as fast as a train at any standard station. The new terminal also has no tail tracks, so trains have to approach it more slowly in case the train might fail to stop and smash into the bumper blocks and/or wall.

[NYCRailfan523]

Instead, what they should do is to just reopen the station and use new gap fillers. To not waste it, they should just use the old South Ferry for the night and the new South Ferry for the day. 

[4P3607]

The other day when I passed thru the loop platform, it appears they are fixing it up for service. From what I hear, they will be using the passageway that leads to the new station to connect with the Whitehall St station if they use it for service (which Im pretty sure they are). When I passed thru the loop I noticed at the end of the platform there was a door open leading to a room with blasting material, so I guess they really are working on using that passageway.

Don't think the will be going to Rector for much longer...

[mtattrain]

Instead, what they should do is to just reopen the station and use new gap fillers. To not waste it, they should just use the old South Ferry for the night and the new South Ferry for the day.