Future of Southern Brooklyn/IRT Nostrand

[checkmatechamp13]

I read that projects were originally meant for ex-servicepersons by the way.

 

Some were, some weren't. For instance, the West Brighton Houses & Markham Gardens were built in the 1940s so the shipworkers could be near their jobs on Richmond Terrace. But the ones in Coney Island were built in the late 1960s (correct me if I'm wrong), and those just replaced a slum.

 

Random fact: Lloyd Blankfein, the CEO of Goldman Sachs was raised in a housing project. Wikipedia says it was the Linden Houses, but I could've sworn it was the Pink Houses. Either way, it was a housing project in East NY.

 

In any case, for crime and wealth and everything, nowadays, there's not much of a correlation between that and distance from the subway. But something the NIMBYs might protest is increased density.

[Vistausss]

 

 

the biggest problem would be dealing with detached home owners in Marine Park (requires a lot of political maneuvering). another problem is how to cross the LIRR track; I wonder if they could just have a flat junction there since supposedly not that many trains use that ROW.

Uhm, what is "not many" in your eyes? Especially in rush hour there are quite some LIRR trains using that ROW to terminate at Atlantic Terminal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[checkmatechamp13]

 Uhm, what is "not many" in your eyes? Especially in rush hour there are quite some LIRR trains using that ROW to terminate at Atlantic Terminal.

 

He's talking about the one that passes near Flatbush & Nostrand. There's an old LIRR branch that's being used as a freight line over ther, but there aren't a whole lot of freight trains along it.

[Vistausss]

He's talking about the one that passes near Flatbush & Nostrand. There's an old LIRR branch that's being used as a freight line over ther, but there aren't a whole lot of freight trains along it.

 

Oh yeah, that one isn't used much indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

[CDTA]

 

Oh yeah, that one isn't used much indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sarcasm?

[Grand Concourse]

How so? I pass thru the area twice a day for the week and don't see anything moving on those tracks. Is there a scheduled time a train runs by?

[BrooklynIRT]

this came from the 2004 edition of Tracks of the NYC Subway: "Plans are afoot to extend this trackway beyond the Flatbush Avenue station in the first phase of a plan intended to add storage capacity and service to the Nostrand Avenue line. According to the MTA's present Capital Plan, subsequent work will link the extended trackway with new layup tracks created on a nearby, lightly used Long Island Rail Road right-of-way."

 

and trainfan22 said this here: 

There's 4 trains a day on the Bay Ridge Branch.

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/35253-northward-elongation-of-platforms-at-flatbushnostrand-aves/?do=findComment&comment=540812

 

BIRT edit: after seeing the back and forth since Vistausss' initial post, I realize that it is now understood that I was referring to that freight line, not the LIRR passenger lines

[Vistausss]

Sarcasm?

 

4 freight trains a day and most of them overnight. How is that frequent in your eyes?

[CDTA]

4 freight trains a day and most of them overnight. How is that frequent in your eyes?

It's not, but I can't tell sarcasm, and it looked like it was, the way it was phrased.

[BrooklynIRT]

cheaper to build an el than a subway. you can make a portal in the middle of either Flatbush or Nostrand if you narrow the sidewalks and widen the road and/or eliminate a few parking spaces. you may even be able to have angled parking under the el where it just starts to come up from underground, like at W 135 St-Broadway on the to compensate for lost parking spaces. but the main issue is the space for the portal, which is easy to fix (using the solution I described in the first 2 lines), I think.

 

by the way I meant the elimination of parking spaces and/or sidewalk narrowing would only be in the portal area; you can have traffic lanes under the el away from the portal area and keep the curbside parking in the areas where there are traffic lanes under the el as in the case of most places where there are els

[peacemak3r]

With the amount of traffic at the junction, building a portal there is suicide, IMO.

[BrooklynIRT]

it does not need to be there. it would be on Nostrand south of "H" if continuing down Nostrand towards Sheepshead Bay or on FB south of "H" if turning to go down FB (towards KP) and it would not decrease the number of traffic lanes. it would necessitate the removal of a few parking spaces in the portal area to keep the number of traffic lanes the same and they can have angled parking under the el where it just starts to come up from underground, like at W 133 St-Broadway on the   to compensate for lost parking spaces.

 

where does most of that traffic go/come from anyway? the belt pkwy? what about all the northbound vehicles that turn from Nostrand to FB and the southbound vehicles that turn from FB to Nostrand?

 

apparently when I tried to make a post asking those questions, the forum just merged it with my other post about the portal, traffic, and parking. and after all this time I realized that the angled parking is actually between W 133 St-Broadway and some other nearby numbered street south of W 133 on Broadway. the point is that neither traffic nor parking would be compromised after the Nostrand or Flatbush Ave el were completely constructed.

[BrooklynBus]

When Utica Avenue was built, they widened it at Carroll Street so a Utica Avenue subway line could emerge there and become an el. If you think of it, that is a strange place for it to become wider.  You would think they would have widened it at Eastern Parkway or at Empire Boulevard / Lefferts Avenue. So it stands to reason that perhaps Nostrand Avenue becomes wider at Kings Highway so the Nostrand Avenue Subway could become an el at that point. But then it becomes narrow again after Gerritsen, perhaps because there was already much development south of that point or else they widened Nostrand after Gerritsen Ave was built and it has nothing to do with the subway. 

[BrooklynIRT]

perhaps. at some point they would have had to have gotten it out of the ground due to water tables. NYCSubway.org even says, in the description of the Flatbush Ave station, that that station and Newkirk Ave station used to suffer a lot of floods

 

anyway I think there is no way they will ever run a subway south of "I" on Flatbush or Nostrand. way too expensive, way too much time, way too much aggravation and noise and air pollution as seen on 2nd Ave. any new train line that goes down Flatbush or Nostrand will have to be an el I think.

[Quill Depot]

You say el, although where is the space for a portal?

[Grand Concourse]

And an el isn't going to be a continuous noise pollution? I think the issue with Nostrand probably requires an el at some point, not sure about Flatbush av. But if I had to chose which street gets stuck with an el, I'd want it to be Flatbush av as it is wide enough to support the portal, so long as it is built past av I. Av h is too traffic clogged for the portal to be build there.

[Trainmaster5]

perhaps. at some point they would have had to have gotten it out of the ground due to water tables. NYCSubway.org even says, in the description of the Flatbush Ave station, that that station and Newkirk Ave station used to suffer a lot of floods

 The subway station at Newkirk Ave (2,5) and the area just south and east of there was the site of the Vanderveer waterworks and has always had a water problem underneath the ground. The housing development and playground are built on that land.

[Subwayfan12]

Even though it might cost plenty of $$$$$, an open cut would be nice

[Roadcruiser1]

Even though it might cost plenty of $$$$$, an open cut would be nice

 

Really now? That's a terrible idea. A) It will require shutting up parts of Nostrand Avenue permanently. B) It will ruin the neighborhood for sure. and C) That is extensive and expensive and is not worth it.

 

An elevated line would be the best solution here. Something that would look similar to the Vancouver Skytrain would work well here.

[R32sdabest]

If the and extend south, the should go to Sheepshead Bay Voorhies Ave via Flatbush Ave and the should go to Lings Plaza Avenue U via Flatbush Ave. Both should be elevated.

[BrooklynIRT]

And an el isn't going to be a continuous noise pollution? I think the issue with Nostrand probably requires an el at some point, not sure about Flatbush av. But if I had to chose which street gets stuck with an el, I'd want it to be Flatbush av as it is wide enough to support the portal, so long as it is built past av I. Av h is too traffic clogged for the portal to be build there.

 

 

they just replaced some track panels on track 1 (s/b) near W 231 St-Broadway on the . you barely hear the southbound trains on that track now. with the way things are going I think it would be better to try to get residents to agree to have an el built south of JCT (which road gets the train is another story) than to try to do a subway. the subway is just too expensive and there is too much long-term disruption caused by its construction to even bother making a political push for it.

 

this is what you have to deal with if you try to build a subway to the edge of Brooklyn (via Nostrand or FB):

 

-about 10 to 20 years of construction

-lots of noise due to said construction

-dust and other particulate matter in the area

-a money pit

-no trains running near apartment windows

 

this is what you deal with if you try to build an el to the edge of Brooklyn (via Nostrand or FB):

 

-probably about 5 to 15 years of construction (?), whatever it would be is less than the time required to build a subway

-not nearly as much noise due to said construction

-not nearly as much dust in the area

-less of a money pit

-trains running near apartment windows, but you would barely hear the rumbling anywhere near the el (in a nearby apartment or on the street below) due to the availability of noise-insulating measures as I stated above.

what you would hear is the motors spooling up and down near stations; the question is whether people say they can get used to such noise and sleep at night with the trains going by. remember, the rumbling is not an issue except when trains get flat wheels. the only noise comes from the motors spooling up and down..and the HVAC as long as R142s are over there. now it gets interesting b/c I wonder whether crews can prevent the HVAC units from making noise by turning the HVAC system off. but I do not want to get into those particulars yet; that is for if/when (a) politician(s) get(s) behind this project.

 

You say el, although where is the space for a portal?

I just mentioned a solution to this in posts 25, 35, and 37.

[BrooklynIRT]

"I" can have a portal if you go Nostrand then "I" then Flatbush; Nostrand can have a portal if you stay on Nostrand south of JCT. a four lane road like "I" or Nostrand can support an el; a six lane road is not of dire importance, especially since this el would just be a 2-track line..two issues with elevation after turning from Nostrand to "I" are that you would have trains making screeching noises while going around the curve at Flatbush & "I", which residents would not stand for; and there are bike lanes on "I". first issue is worse than the last one.

 

I really think an el proposal would be much more likely to survive the political arena than a subway proposal.

[Subwayfan12]

Really now? That's a terrible idea. A) It will require shutting up parts of Nostrand Avenue permanently. B) It will ruin the neighborhood for sure. and C) That is extensive and expensive and is not worth it.

 

An elevated line would be the best solution here. Something that would look similar to the Vancouver Skytrain would work well here.

As long as the EL doesn't produce a lot of noise.

[Grand Concourse]

Even though it might cost plenty of $$$$$, an open cut would be nice

And how long do you want this open cut line to run? Streets are also important. You can't sacrifice lanes on either FB or Nostrand. It's either cut and cover or an el.

[bobtehpanda]

IMO cut and cover is the way to go here because it's been a long time since the days of Jane Jacobs v. Robert Moses, and the community will scream at you if you attempt to fit an El on Nostrand - it's too narrow, and it will block pretty much all sunlight to the ground a la the Flushing Line on Roosevelt. Not to mention, they will ALSO scream if you attempt to widen Nostrand, or take away sidewalk/car lanes for a tunnel portal.

 

For some of us, an ideal world is one without community opposition and land acquisition cost, but let's get real here. No one is going to like the idea of an El.