Hope May Be on the Way to Reduce Bus Bunching and Much More

[BrooklynBus]

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2013/02/hope-may-be-on-the-way-to-reduce-bus-bunching-and-much-more/#more-42952

[B35 via Church]

 

(from the article linked above)

 

Also, if the trend now is to add bus routes, rather than cutting back service further, that is more good news.

Let us just hope that the MTA keeps its promises, is not playing games, and doesn’t screw up.

As I see it, the question is, why are they adding bus service all of a sudden..... I don't have to tell you how long it took the MTA (for example) to implement the actual B83 extension from Starrett to Gateway Mall, but now caution is being thrown to the wind in the adding of new bus routes/"testing" markets (so to speak)? To go from using "cost neutrality" as an argument to shut down any addition/extension of service, to outright wanting to create new bus routes, is drastic.....

 

The trend looks good on the surface/by itself, but again, I'd like to know the real reason as to why it's now becoming......

 

As far as "bustrek", yeah, I've never heard of it.... Will have to read up about it.

[Gorgor]

Bus bunching on the M15 SBS is horrible.  The other day there I just missed a northbound bus, and I had to wait for nearly 10 minutes when two buses came, one literally right behind the other, both extremely packed, with people in front of the white line all the way up to the windshield.  Because the bus was so packed, the driver had to drive slower than usual because any sudden braking would definitely cause people to fall or bang into each other, which further delayed everything.

 

Bunching also can get bad on the M31 during the PM rush.  There really is a desperate need to fix this issue.

[checkmatechamp13]

As I see it, the question is, why are they adding bus service all of a sudden..... I don't have to tell you how long it took the MTA (for example) to implement the actual B83 extension from Starrett to Gateway Mall, but now caution is being thrown to the wind in the adding of new bus routes/"testing" markets (so to speak)? To go from using "cost neutrality" as an argument to shut down any addition/extension of service, to outright wanting to create new bus routes, is drastic.....

 

The trend looks good on the surface/by itself, but again, I'd like to know the real reason as to why it's now becoming......

 

As far as "bustrek", yeah, I've never heard of it.... Will have to read up about it.

 

Yeah, as I've said in the past, something seems fishy about the way this whole thing. First, their financial issues are so bad that they have to make massive cuts, but now suddenly, they come into a bunch of money and are able to restore the many services all at once (well, maybe a few months apart), and on top of that, now they're adding new services. But these services are all suspicious in one way or another. They all serve areas with a lot of new development (so these developers definitely had a hand in it. I don't doubt money was slipped under the table), and they're all basically little shuttles running every 30 minutes, even in cases where it makes no sense.

[Culver]

Yeah, as I've said in the past, something seems fishy about the way this whole thing. First, their financial issues are so bad that they have to make massive cuts, but now suddenly, they come into a bunch of money and are able to restore the many services all at once (well, maybe a few months apart), and on top of that, now they're adding new services. But these services are all suspicious in one way or another. They all serve areas with a lot of new development (so these developers definitely had a hand in it. I don't doubt money was slipped under the table), and they're all basically little shuttles running every 30 minutes, even in cases where it makes no sense.

Well, they're saving money on fuel with new, more efficient buses. That, and the fare increase.

[BrooklynBus]

As I see it, the question is, why are they adding bus service all of a sudden..... I don't have to tell you how long it took the MTA (for example) to implement the actual B83 extension from Starrett to Gateway Mall, but now caution is being thrown to the wind in the adding of new bus routes/"testing" markets (so to speak)? To go from using "cost neutrality" as an argument to shut down any addition/extension of service, to outright wanting to create new bus routes, is drastic.....

 

The trend looks good on the surface/by itself, but again, I'd like to know the real reason as to why it's now becoming......

 

As far as "bustrek", yeah, I've never heard of it.... Will have to read up about it.

 

I don't think they changed their argument regarding cost neutrality.  I just think they are not telling us the whole story.  My friend told me that they just reduced service on the B6 in the last schedule cutting the Limiteds back from the New Lots IRT to the Rockaway Parkway Station with the last schedule change.  Sounds like that might be just enough money to pay for the new B84.  That is still better than cutting back service and using it to fill the deficit. I'd rather see savings go into new routes like they seem to be doing.

 

Yeah, as I've said in the past, something seems fishy about the way this whole thing. First, their financial issues are so bad that they have to make massive cuts, but now suddenly, they come into a bunch of money and are able to restore the many services all at once (well, maybe a few months apart), and on top of that, now they're adding new services. But these services are all suspicious in one way or another. They all serve areas with a lot of new development (so these developers definitely had a hand in it. I don't doubt money was slipped under the table), and they're all basically little shuttles running every 30 minutes, even in cases where it makes no sense.

 

They have never been responsive to developers before that I can think of so I doubt that money was passed under the table.  Why its happening now?  Perhaps they want to give managers a raise after the fare increase goes into effect because they haven't had any in  four years.  If they make a few modest service improvements first, there goes the argument of how come you have money for raises but not for more service?  That's my guess why it's happening now.  Of course the managerial raises will come after the union signs for no raises or a very modest raise of 1%.  Then they will give the managers 3%. 

 

Bus bunching on the M15 SBS is horrible.  The other day there I just missed a northbound bus, and I had to wait for nearly 10 minutes when two buses came, one literally right behind the other, both extremely packed, with people in front of the white line all the way up to the windshield.  Because the bus was so packed, the driver had to drive slower than usual because any sudden braking would definitely cause people to fall or bang into each other, which further delayed everything.

 

Bunching also can get bad on the M31 during the PM rush.  There really is a desperate need to fix this issue.

 

I've heard that a lot.  But you would never guess it's a problem from their biased M15 survey. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As I see it, the question is, why are they adding bus service all of a sudden..... I don't have to tell you how long it took the MTA (for example) to implement the actual B83 extension from Starrett to Gateway Mall, but now caution is being thrown to the wind in the adding of new bus routes/"testing" markets (so to speak)? To go from using "cost neutrality" as an argument to shut down any addition/extension of service, to outright wanting to create new bus routes, is drastic.....

 

The trend looks good on the surface/by itself, but again, I'd like to know the real reason as to why it's now becoming......

 

As far as "bustrek", yeah, I've never heard of it.... Will have to read up about it.

It's pretty simple... #1 they know that they can't cram everyone onto the subways... They simply don't have the capacity to do so as have been shown with subways becoming slower and more delayed. #2 The millions that they usually have to pay back to the State every year, last year they were allowed to keep (some $50 million or so) due to fine senators like Senator Golden lobbying so that the could keep that money and pledging to do more to help them keep more money for service improvements.  When you have some of the most powerful politicians lobbying for service restorations AND service improvements, it's not that difficult to see what is going on.  Several politicians have been in talks with the on not only providing service restorations but also providing new routes. People want their service back and they're pressing their local leaders to take action.  Now I've been in contact with a few offices about restoring the M104 and I've also been at some hearings where the M104 keeps coming up.  The has been stubborn about restoring that segment of the line, but that doesn't mean that folks aren't trying to force their hand and I can assure that we're going to keep pressuring them to restore that segment of the route.  I am going to explore every avenue possible to get that bus restored.  You also saw how Sheldon Silver pressured them on that M9 extension... The status quo is no longer acceptable, esp. with them constantly raising the fares.  They're going to have to do more to justify these increases.

[BrooklynBus]

It's pretty simple... #1 they know that they can't cram everyone onto the subways... They simply don't have the capacity to do so as have been shown with subways becoming slower and more delayed. #2 The millions that they usually have to pay back to the State every year, last year they were allowed to keep (some $50 million or so) due to fine senators like Senator Golden lobbying so that the could keep that money and pledging to do more to help them keep more money for service improvements.  When you have some of the most powerful politicians lobbying for service restorations AND service improvements, it's not that difficult to see what is going on.  Several politicians have been in talks with the on not only providing service restorations but also providing new routes. People want their service back and they're pressing their local leaders to take action.  Now I've been in contact with a few offices about restoring the M104 and I've also been at some hearings where the M104 keeps coming up.  The has been stubborn about restoring that segment of the line, but that doesn't mean that folks aren't trying to force their hand and I can assure that we're going to keep pressuring them to restore that segment of the route.  I am going to explore every avenue possible to get that bus restored.  You also saw how Sheldon Silver pressured them on that M9 extension... The status quo is no longer acceptable, esp. with them constantly raising the fares.  They're going to have to do more to justify these increases.

 

I agree with what you say about the politicians putting pressure on the MTA, but I don't see how not being able to cram more people into the subways has anything to do with it.  None of the routes being proposed are proposed as alternates to the subway.  In fact the B84 is a feeder to the subway and should increase subway use, not decrease it.

[B35 via Church]

I don't think they changed their argument regarding cost neutrality.  I just think they are not telling us the whole story.  My friend told me that they just reduced service on the B6 in the last schedule cutting the Limiteds back from the New Lots IRT to the Rockaway Parkway Station with the last schedule change.  Sounds like that might be just enough money to pay for the new B84.  That is still better than cutting back service and using it to fill the deficit. I'd rather see savings go into new routes like they seem to be doing.

Not necessarily referring to "changing" their argument.....  The point I was making with that is, the creation of new routes isn't cost-neutral....

We're essentially coming to the same conclusion with them possibly not telling the whole story...

 

 

 

 

It's pretty simple...

 

#1 they know that they can't cram everyone onto the subways... They simply don't have the capacity to do so as have been shown with subways becoming slower and more delayed.

 

#2 The millions that they usually have to pay back to the State every year, last year they were allowed to keep (some $50 million or so) due to fine senators like Senator Golden lobbying so that the could keep that money and pledging to do more to help them keep more money for service improvements.  When you have some of the most powerful politicians lobbying for service restorations AND service improvements, it's not that difficult to see what is going on.  Several politicians have been in talks with the on not only providing service restorations but also providing new routes. People want their service back and they're pressing their local leaders to take action.  Now I've been in contact with a few offices about restoring the M104 and I've also been at some hearings where the M104 keeps coming up.  The has been stubborn about restoring that segment of the line, but that doesn't mean that folks aren't trying to force their hand and I can assure that we're going to keep pressuring them to restore that segment of the route.  I am going to explore every avenue possible to get that bus restored.  You also saw how Sheldon Silver pressured them on that M9 extension... The status quo is no longer acceptable, esp. with them constantly raising the fares.  They're going to have to do more to justify these increases.

 

For your point #1, I don't know... With routes like this "B84" & that "Bx46", it's putting more people on subways....

That M12 is supposed to be some sort of subway alternative (I don't see it being used as such, but that's neither here nor there)....

That Williamsburg - Long Island City route... if their logic is tryna take ppl. off the with that route, don't see that happening either.....

 

Yes they can't cram everyone onto subways, but I actually think they want to try to cram as much people onto subways as possible....

Personally I think this whole trend of sorts has more to do with consolidating/cutting existing bus service in some form or fashion... Don't see these dinky routes lasting for too long.... Have more people pile onto less buses enroute to taking even more packed subways... I think the logic is that it's easier to cut bus service than subway service.....

[qjtransitmaster]

Bus bunching on the M15 SBS is horrible.  The other day there I just missed a northbound bus, and I had to wait for nearly 10 minutes when two buses came, one literally right behind the other, both extremely packed, with people in front of the white line all the way up to the windshield.  Because the bus was so packed, the driver had to drive slower than usual because any sudden braking would definitely cause people to fall or bang into each other, which further delayed everything.

 

Bunching also can get bad on the M31 during the PM rush.  There really is a desperate need to fix this issue.

Tell me about it they come when they want which is why I usually just give up and use the subway some don't even have the decency to stop at major intersections M101 doesn't even link to 57th street CMON man. The wait is unbearable for M buses they are annoying to use.

 

Not necessarily referring to "changing" their argument.....  The point I was making with that is, the creation of new routes isn't cost-neutral....

We're essentially coming to the same conclusion with them possibly not telling the whole story...

 

 

 

 

 

For your point #1, I don't know... With routes like this "B84" & that "Bx46", it's putting more people on subways....

That M12 is supposed to be some sort of subway alternative (I don't see it being used as such, but that's neither here nor there)....

That Williamsburg - Long Island City route... if their logic is tryna take ppl. off the with that route, don't see that happening either.....

 

Yes they can't cram everyone onto subways, but I actually think they want to try to cram as much people onto subways as possible....

Personally I think this whole trend of sorts has more to do with consolidating/cutting existing bus service in some form or fashion... Don't see these dinky routes lasting for too long.... Have more people pile onto less buses enroute to taking even more packed subways... I think the logic is that it's easier to cut bus service than subway service.....

These new routes will eventually be perfected. 

[B35 via Church]

These new routes will eventually be perfected.

By themselves, I doubt it.....

I think portions of these new routes will be retrofitted into existing routes.... But we'll see....

[qjtransitmaster]

By themselves, I doubt it.....

I think portions of these new routes will be retrofitted into existing routes.... But we'll see....

Or extended to other underserved areas and some corridors too. Hehe. I am NICE and new hint.

[User]

I gather the bunching in Queens is not as bad as other boroughs given nobody mentioned it. When I used to have to come home in the evening (during rush hours) via the Q30, I would usually be waiting half an hour before two buses showed up at the same time.

[BrooklynBus]

By themselves, I doubt it.....

I think portions of these new routes will be retrofitted into existing routes.... But we'll see....

Yes, but they should be doing that initially, not creating a bunch of short shuttle routes at 30 minute intervals.

 

My friend and I came up with a plan involving 5 routes in East New York that we think will accomplish much more than just what the B84 does. He will present it at the hearing. We haven't worked out the costs, but I think it might be similar because it includes some savings as well as additions and greatly increases connections. That's what the MTA should be doing but they are too timid to make bold changes that aren't exclusively cutbacks which involve more than one or two routes at a time.

 

Actually, it's mostly his idea. I can briefly describe it if anyone is interested but which thread should I put it in? The large Brroklyn thread or here?

[aemoreira81]

Bus bunching on the M15 SBS is horrible.  The other day there I just missed a northbound bus, and I had to wait for nearly 10 minutes when two buses came, one literally right behind the other, both extremely packed, with people in front of the white line all the way up to the windshield.  Because the bus was so packed, the driver had to drive slower than usual because any sudden braking would definitely cause people to fall or bang into each other, which further delayed everything.

 

Bunching also can get bad on the M31 during the PM rush.  There really is a desperate need to fix this issue.

 

When BusTime is introduced to the rest of the system, dispatchers should use it as a tool to either hold buses or to "put them in place" (that is, place them where they belong). I see it as help for not just customers. There should also be short-turning of buses on the fly if need be.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not necessarily referring to "changing" their argument.....  The point I was making with that is, the creation of new routes isn't cost-neutral....

We're essentially coming to the same conclusion with them possibly not telling the whole story...

 

 

 

 

 

For your point #1, I don't know... With routes like this "B84" & that "Bx46", it's putting more people on subways....

That M12 is supposed to be some sort of subway alternative (I don't see it being used as such, but that's neither here nor there)....

That Williamsburg - Long Island City route... if their logic is tryna take ppl. off the with that route, don't see that happening either.....

 

Yes they can't cram everyone onto subways, but I actually think they want to try to cram as much people onto subways as possible....

Personally I think this whole trend of sorts has more to do with consolidating/cutting existing bus service in some form or fashion... Don't see these dinky routes lasting for too long.... Have more people pile onto less buses enroute to taking even more packed subways... I think the logic is that it's easier to cut bus service than subway service.....

 

 

I agree with what you say about the politicians putting pressure on the MTA, but I don't see how not being able to cram more people into the subways has anything to do with it.  None of the routes being proposed are proposed as alternates to the subway.  In fact the B84 is a feeder to the subway and should increase subway use, not decrease it.

Well the new bus routes are simply feeding neighborhoods with population growth, but I think it goes back to complimenting the system overall... You can't have a huge imbalance of people cramming onto subways simply because bus service is inadequate or in some cases non-existent.  While some of the new routes are subway feeders, many of the restorations serve bus routes that commuters relied on and having a balanced system creates a healthy system overall.  I actually like what the is doing here to some degree (with the exception being the cuts to the BM express bus service on Saturdays)... They've cutting service where it needs to be cut BUT also trying not alienate riders to the point of outright ending some service.  When Bus Time comes into play it will allow them to run service to the bone to control costs, so that a local route with 30 minute headways can still actually be attractive.  I look at a bus line like the M50 as a perfect example, which I use, even though it has low headways.  That's a route that I just have my schedule for and if I know a bus is due soon, I'll wait otherwise I just take another route, but once Bus Time kicks in, that would be a perfect route because it's relatively fast when there isn't traffic on the weekends, with decent loads but not crushloaded so you can have a seat and be comfortable.

 

Also as I said before, the politicians helped them keep some $50 million dollars to use specifically for service enhancements, so IMO, the is simply holding up their part of the bargain, esp. since the fares are set to go up in a few weeks.

[B35 via Church]

My friend and I came up with a plan involving 5 routes in East New York that we think will accomplish much more than just what the B84 does. He will present it at the hearing. We haven't worked out the costs, but I think it might be similar because it includes some savings as well as additions and greatly increases connections. That's what the MTA should be doing but they are too timid to make bold changes that aren't exclusively cutbacks which involve more than one or two routes at a time.

 

Actually, it's mostly his idea. I can briefly describe it if anyone is interested but which thread should I put it in? The large Brroklyn thread or here?

Sure, knock yourself out....

Since they're ideas, just post em in that large Brooklyn thread.....

 

 

Well the new bus routes are simply feeding neighborhoods with population growth, but I think it goes back to complimenting the system overall... You can't have a huge imbalance of people cramming onto subways simply because bus service is inadequate or in some cases non-existent.  While some of the new routes are subway feeders, many of the restorations serve bus routes that commuters relied on and having a balanced system creates a healthy system overall.  I actually like what the is doing here to some degree (with the exception being the cuts to the BM express bus service on Saturdays)... They've cutting service where it needs to be cut BUT also trying not alienate riders to the point of outright ending some service.  

 

When Bus Time comes into play it will allow them to run service to the bone to control costs, so that a local route with 30 minute headways can still actually be attractive.  I look at a bus line like the M50 as a perfect example, which I use, even though it has low headways.  That's a route that I just have my schedule for and if I know a bus is due soon, I'll wait otherwise I just take another route, but once Bus Time kicks in, that would be a perfect route because it's relatively fast when there isn't traffic on the weekends, with decent loads but not crushloaded so you can have a seat and be comfortable.

 

Also as I said before, the politicians helped them keep some $50 million dollars to use specifically for service enhancements, so IMO, the is simply holding up their part of the bargain, esp. since the fares are set to go up in a few weeks.

 

The first few statements I agree with in principle, but again, that is what I think the MTA is aiming for - more people utilizing less service, as it puts that much more money back in their pockets.... I can't speak for BrooklynBus (since you also quoted him), but I'm not advocating for having this huge imbalance of ppl. cramming onto subways (as you put it)..... Way I see it, no way are they gonna raise the fare & increase service; something has got to give, and that "something" is service..... You say they're cutting service where it needs to be cut, but that's the thing - What measures are they using to come to a conclusion like that.... It's easy for them to cut any ole trip on any ole route & make their recycled excuse of "not too many riders will be affected"..... None of this is of any benefit to the riding public; regardless of what mode we're talking about here....

 

It may compliment the system to an extent, but we don't want too many 30 min headway routes in the grand scheme of things either.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The first few statements I agree with in principle, but again, that is what I think the MTA is aiming for - more people utilizing less service, as it puts that much more money back in their pockets.... I can't speak for BrooklynBus (since you also quoted him), but I'm not advocating for having this huge imbalance of ppl. cramming onto subways (as you put it)..... Way I see it, no way are they gonna raise the fare & increase service; something has got to give, and that "something" is service..... You say they're cutting service where it needs to be cut, but that's the thing - What measures are they using to come to a conclusion like that.... It's easy for them to cut any ole trip on any ole route & make their recycled excuse of "not too many riders will be affected"..... None of this is of any benefit to the riding public; regardless of what mode we're talking about here....

 

It may compliment the system to an extent, but we don't want too many 30 min headway routes in the grand scheme of things either.....

 

Of course not but people have been b*tching for so long now saying how the provides too much service and going on and on and on about it so now they're cutting the service down to the bare bone. I mean a route like the M50, it would be nice to have 20 minute headways, but the ridership isn't there for it.

[Gorgor]

Tell me about it they come when they want which is why I usually just give up and use the subway some don't even have the decency to stop at major intersections M101 doesn't even link to 57th street CMON man. The wait is unbearable for M buses they are annoying to use.

 

First off, the subway isn't near the M15 SBS.

 

The M101 can't stop at 57th Street because it would cause an even bigger traffic jam.  The two right lanes until 59th Street are physically separated for traffic heading to the bridge, so sticking a bus stop there would just be awful.

[qjtransitmaster]

First off, the subway isn't near the M15 SBS.

 

The M101 can't stop at 57th Street because it would cause an even bigger traffic jam.  The two right lanes until 59th Street are physically separated for traffic heading to the bridge, so sticking a bus stop there would just be awful.

I see looks like I won't be on manhattan buses anytime soon.

[B35 via Church]

Of course not but people have been b*tching for so long now saying how the provides too much service and going on and on and on about it so now they're cutting the service down to the bare bone.

 

I mean a route like the M50, it would be nice to have 20 minute headways, but the ridership isn't there for it.

They're opting to cut services for monetary purposes and nothing more... It is all about a dollar.

 

Of course it would be nice to have better headways, including on the M50.....

 

 

I see looks like I won't be on manhattan buses anytime soon.

With the stuff you say about manhattan's buses, I'd stop to say you don't take the things at all.....

 

It is really about some manhattan buses not stopping at major intersections, or is it that you had your mind made up on taking subways to begin with.... You can't just place a bus stop any ole where......

[qjtransitmaster]

They're opting to cut services for monetary purposes and nothing more... It is all about a dollar.

 

Of course it would be nice to have better headways, including on the M50.....

 

 

With the stuff you say about manhattan's buses, I'd stop to say you don't take the things at all.....

 

It is really about some manhattan buses not stopping at major intersections, or is it that you had your mind made up on taking subways to begin with.... You can't just place a bus stop any ole where......

when I did use em miserable experiences most of the time. The only manhattan buses that weren't miserable were crosstowns in upper manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They're opting to cut services for monetary purposes and nothing more... It is all about a dollar.

 

Of course it would be nice to have better headways, including on the M50.....

Well yeah of course they are but they can't win either way... You have the PITAs saying oh they need to cut service so now they did that and some of those same people (not you) are saying oh that's not enough service.  Some people just like to b*tch and moan endlessly.

[qjtransitmaster]

Well yeah of course they are but they can't win either way... You have the PITAs saying oh they need to cut service so now they did that and some of those same people (not you) are saying oh that's not enough service.  Some people just like to b*tch and moan endlessly.

I never bashed the M50 I only bashed lines that completely duplicate.

[Lennyj17]

M7 is the worst bunching line of all Manhattan routes..... You will literally wait 20 mins for an M7 and a gang of them will come at one time....Once they hit 42 one the first one will be sent to 14th the rest will be turned at 23rd some will make their final stop at 34th for a short turn at 32nd or 30th... M7 is a mess.. It provides no relief to the M20's at all, which will almost always be in front the gang of M7s.