Why are LIRR/Metro North fares so high compared to the subway?

[nostalgia]

No, it's not impossible but not likely.  With the recent  mandate from the FRA regarding hours of service, the amount of overtime has been cut back because of the amount of rest required. 

 

That aside, what is the difference if one conductor made $250K or 2 made $125K or 4 made $62.5K?  The bottom line is if the jobs have to be filled, who cares who worked it?

 

The bottom line is called productivity. The gets more work from four conductors in a day than one conductor.

 

I agree the Commuter Rail fares are getting out of hand, it doesn't even get much mention on the news (Mocker). So subway and bus riders get to a quarter more for a ride, meanwhile, here in Westbury a Peak One Way now costs $12.50. We're only 5 miles or so from the city line, yet we're paying more than double the cost of an express bus ride. The poor folks out in zone 10 (Ronk) now have to pay $17.50 for a peak. Monthly tickets range between $280 to $380, that's well over 2 times the cost of a monthly unlimited metrocard. And lets not forget seniors and the disabled on a limited income are forced to pay peak fares on AM PEAK trains, a practice that I dont think is done anywhere else (I know not in NJ). Ridership stats I saw mention 300,000 daily LIRR riders, figure 200,000 of them buy monthlies the MTA gets $66 Mil in revenue just from those. It does seem the suburbs get soaked by the MTA, to fund lower fares in the city. Zone based fares in NJ for a comparable distance seem to be much lower. I used to do the bus to subway thing when I needed to be in NYC early, esp for catching NJT at Port Authority. It does take much longer, almost an hour. Say I need to get a 7:30am 319 out of PABT, instead of taking the 5:50am or 6:30am(tight) train, I have to take the n22 that leaves Hicksville at 5am, and arrives at the 179st subway at around 6:10am. Lately though the subway crowding has gotten out of control, the F's already have most seats taken by the time they pull out of 179st, and then we get slammed at Jackson Heights where the platforms are overflowing with people, and it's only around 6:35am! The train gets crush loaded, its pretty unpleasant. I dunno what's been going on, started this past fall with the mobs at Jackson Heights, dunno why they cant stay upstairs on the 7 where they belong. Cant deal with that so I'm back to the train. I just wish we had another option such as an express bus. I think some folks out in Suffolk will discover the Bolt Bus which is much cheaper. But Nassau has no express bus, except for the Go Buses I see around Glen Cove and Roslyn. Only other option is taking the 4:48AM LIRR at Westbury, the last off peak train, thats pretty early!!! I think LIRR/MNRR fares need to be reduced by 20%, and the subway/bus fares should go up to $3. For some reason the MTA thinks more rich people must be in the suburbs since they look at us like an ATM, yet I think there's more wealth in the city (esp Manhattan) now. 

It seems it would be fairer to adjust the subway fare based on the time of day, as in the Washington, DC subway system, where peak fares would be a dollar higher.

[Truckie]

The bottom line is called productivity. The gets more work from four conductors in a day than one conductor.

 

Generally speaking I would agree with you but this is strictly regarding overtime.  Hypothetically, if there is one shift available every week over the course of the year due to someone being sick, vacation, annual refresher training, etc and it has to be filled on overtime, it's no more productive if 52 different conductors work overtime once every week or one working the additional shift all 52 weeks.  The payout ends up being the same. 

[nostalgia]

Generally speaking I would agree with you but this is strictly regarding overtime.  Hypothetically, if there is one shift available every week over the course of the year due to someone being sick, vacation, annual refresher training, etc and it has to be filled on overtime, it's no more productive if 52 different conductors work overtime once every week or one working the additional shift all 52 weeks.  The payout ends up being the same. 

Doesn't the railroad have an extra board to handle these situations to avoid excessive overtime?

[Truckie]

Doesn't the railroad have an extra board to handle these situations to avoid excessive overtime?

 

Yes, there is an extra board designated for each crew base.  Before any job goes to overtime the extra board for that crew base has to be exhausted and same for the adjoining crew bases.  However this isn't an absolute way for avoid overtime.  There are times where jobs can't get filled by extras because of hours of service issues.  Those on the extra board can bid on vacation hold downs.  In which they fill the job of someone on vacation for that week.

 

There is also a delicate balance as to how many employees to have on the extra board.  If you have too many, there are more employees than jobs to fill.  Not enough, then there's overtime. 

 

Come summertime and more conductor flag jobs pop up then there are even more jobs to fill.

[nostalgia]

Yes, there is an extra board designated for each crew base.  Before any job goes to overtime the extra board for that crew base has to be exhausted and same for the adjoining crew bases.  However this isn't an absolute way for avoid overtime.  There are times where jobs can't get filled by extras because of hours of service issues.  Those on the extra board can bid on vacation hold downs.  In which they fill the job of someone on vacation for that week.

 

There is also a delicate balance as to how many employees to have on the extra board.  If you have too many, there are more employees than jobs to fill.  Not enough, then there's overtime. 

 

Come summertime and more conductor flag jobs pop up then there are even more jobs to fill.

I wasn't suggesting that the extra board can eliminate overtime, only reduce it. I've seen a LIRR assignment book that lists all the regular and relief jobs and shows the number of extra board positions. I haven't seen a Metro North book.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No, it's not impossible but not likely.  With the recent  mandate from the FRA regarding hours of service, the amount of overtime has been cut back because of the amount of rest required. 

 

That aside, what is the difference if one conductor made $250K or 2 made $125K or 4 made $62.5K?  The bottom line is if the jobs have to be filled, who cares who worked it?

I think what's being hinted at is that excessive overtime is one reason why some may think that fares keep going up (even if it isn't true) and while the claims that they've trimmed overtime, they've cut back so much in some areas that overtime is a must to fill some positions in the system, so the question is how much are they really saving if they have to turn around and pay out large amounts of overtime?

 

One thing is clear however... As long as healthcare costs and pensions continue to skyrocket, agencies like the will continue to have difficulty meeting their bottom lines because they have no control over these things, as is the case with most companies.  I think it's a tragedy that we've reached the point to where people are abandoning the system because of the costs.

[nostalgia]

I think what's being hinted at is that excessive overtime is one reason why some may think that fares keep going up (even if it isn't true) and while the claims that they've trimmed overtime, they've cut back so much in some areas that overtime is a must to fill some positions in the system, so the question is how much are they really saving if they have to turn around and pay out large amounts of overtime?

 

One thing is clear however... As long as healthcare costs and pensions continue to skyrocket, agencies like the will continue to have difficulty meeting their bottom lines because they have no control over these things, as is the case with most companies.  I think it's a tragedy that we've reached the point to where people are abandoning the system because of the costs.

I didn't hint that excessive overtime caused the fare increase. This thread seemed the most appropriate place to post. If this thread didn't exist, I would have created a separate thread.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I didn't hint that excessive overtime caused the fare increase. This thread seemed the most appropriate place to post. If this thread didn't exist, I would have created a separate thread.

Well I'm hinting at it... How about that? Excessive overtime can increase costs overall and eat into any so called saving made by reducing staff... Now I'm not saying that that's certainly the case here but it's possible.  Like I said though, what is definitely helping to raise fares are the skyrocketing healthcare and pension costs which the can't control.

[qjtransitmaster]

Well I'm hinting at it... How about that? Excessive overtime can increase costs overall and eat into any so called saving made by reducing staff... Now I'm not saying that that's certainly the case here but it's possible.  Like I said though, what is definitely helping to raise fares are the skyrocketing healthcare and pension costs which the can't control.

better idea only compensate for healthcare for nonsmokers and lay off the high risk staff most likely to rack up costs.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

better idea only compensate for healthcare for nonsmokers and lay off the high risk staff most likely to rack up costs.

Yeah I was watching a 60 minute program I recorded recently on CNBC and it was discussing that.  The problem is the unions... 

[checkmatechamp13]

I agree the Commuter Rail fares are getting out of hand, it doesn't even get much mention on the news (Mocker). So subway and bus riders get to a quarter more for a ride, meanwhile, here in Westbury a Peak One Way now costs $12.50. We're only 5 miles or so from the city line, yet we're paying more than double the cost of an express bus ride. The poor folks out in zone 10 (Ronk) now have to pay $17.50 for a peak. Monthly tickets range between $280 to $380, that's well over 2 times the cost of a monthly unlimited metrocard. And lets not forget seniors and the disabled on a limited income are forced to pay peak fares on AM PEAK trains, a practice that I dont think is done anywhere else (I know not in NJ). Ridership stats I saw mention 300,000 daily LIRR riders, figure 200,000 of them buy monthlies the MTA gets $66 Mil in revenue just from those. It does seem the suburbs get soaked by the MTA, to fund lower fares in the city. Zone based fares in NJ for a comparable distance seem to be much lower. I used to do the bus to subway thing when I needed to be in NYC early, esp for catching NJT at Port Authority. It does take much longer, almost an hour. Say I need to get a 7:30am 319 out of PABT, instead of taking the 5:50am or 6:30am(tight) train, I have to take the n22 that leaves Hicksville at 5am, and arrives at the 179st subway at around 6:10am. Lately though the subway crowding has gotten out of control, the F's already have most seats taken by the time they pull out of 179st, and then we get slammed at Jackson Heights where the platforms are overflowing with people, and it's only around 6:35am! The train gets crush loaded, its pretty unpleasant. I dunno what's been going on, started this past fall with the mobs at Jackson Heights, dunno why they cant stay upstairs on the 7 where they belong. Cant deal with that so I'm back to the train. I just wish we had another option such as an express bus. I think some folks out in Suffolk will discover the Bolt Bus which is much cheaper. But Nassau has no express bus, except for the Go Buses I see around Glen Cove and Roslyn. Only other option is taking the 4:48AM LIRR at Westbury, the last off peak train, thats pretty early!!! I think LIRR/MNRR fares need to be reduced by 20%, and the subway/bus fares should go up to $3. For some reason the MTA thinks more rich people must be in the suburbs since they look at us like an ATM, yet I think there's more wealth in the city (esp Manhattan) now. 

 

Seriously? Why does anybody "belong" on any particular route? People have the right to take what's convenient for them. The only works if you're going to certain parts of Midtown. For anywhere else, you have to transfer to another subway line. Would you rather them overcrowd the Lexington Avenue Line, which is the most crowded line in the city?

 

Oh, wait, is this because there's a bunch of "illegals" coming off the and crowding your train?  Jackson Heights has always been a busy stop. When the economy was doing well, it was crowded, then when the economy went down, the crowding went down. Now it's picking up again, so you're seeing more crowds.

 

And yeah, keep on going with this crap about "Oh, we subsidize the city", just because your fare happens to be higher. The MTA's numbers say otherwise.

 

Yeah, it sucks that people have to pay that much for the LIRR, but don't sit there and make us in the city out to be the bad guys. And no, the city is still poorer than the suburbs, by a pretty decent margin. Sure, you have the wealthy areas in Manhattan, but the poverty rate in the city is just under 20%, compared to less than 10% out in Nassau.

 

As for NJT, they're marginally cheaper than the LIRR. To go out to Trenton (about 50 miles out) costs $15.50 IIRC, whereas going out to Ronkonkoma is now $17.50 during rush hour, or $12.75 off-peak. (Matter of fact, if you compare the monthlies, an NJT pass is $440, compared to $363 for the LIRR). At a glance, it looks like NJT is cheaper, but it's really not that much cheaper.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I agree the Commuter Rail fares are getting out of hand, it doesn't even get much mention on the news (Mocker). So subway and bus riders get to a quarter more for a ride, meanwhile, here in Westbury a Peak One Way now costs $12.50. We're only 5 miles or so from the city line, yet we're paying more than double the cost of an express bus ride. The poor folks out in zone 10 (Ronk) now have to pay $17.50 for a peak. Monthly tickets range between $280 to $380, that's well over 2 times the cost of a monthly unlimited metrocard. And lets not forget seniors and the disabled on a limited income are forced to pay peak fares on AM PEAK trains, a practice that I dont think is done anywhere else (I know not in NJ). Ridership stats I saw mention 300,000 daily LIRR riders, figure 200,000 of them buy monthlies the MTA gets $66 Mil in revenue just from those. It does seem the suburbs get soaked by the MTA, to fund lower fares in the city. Zone based fares in NJ for a comparable distance seem to be much lower. I used to do the bus to subway thing when I needed to be in NYC early, esp for catching NJT at Port Authority. It does take much longer, almost an hour. Say I need to get a 7:30am 319 out of PABT, instead of taking the 5:50am or 6:30am(tight) train, I have to take the n22 that leaves Hicksville at 5am, and arrives at the 179st subway at around 6:10am. Lately though the subway crowding has gotten out of control, the F's already have most seats taken by the time they pull out of 179st, and then we get slammed at Jackson Heights where the platforms are overflowing with people, and it's only around 6:35am! The train gets crush loaded, its pretty unpleasant. I dunno what's been going on, started this past fall with the mobs at Jackson Heights, dunno why they cant stay upstairs on the 7 where they belong. Cant deal with that so I'm back to the train. I just wish we had another option such as an express bus. I think some folks out in Suffolk will discover the Bolt Bus which is much cheaper. But Nassau has no express bus, except for the Go Buses I see around Glen Cove and Roslyn. Only other option is taking the 4:48AM LIRR at Westbury, the last off peak train, thats pretty early!!! I think LIRR/MNRR fares need to be reduced by 20%, and the subway/bus fares should go up to $3. For some reason the MTA thinks more rich people must be in the suburbs since they look at us like an ATM, yet I think there's more wealth in the city (esp Manhattan) now. 

Well I agree that the suburbs are getting soaked and that includes more suburban areas within city lines.  I think the real question is not who is subsidizing who because quite frankly, if it wasn't for the city, your LIRR rides would be even more expensive, but I do agree that the fares are getting out of hand and I would like to know WHY? There has been such fixation on how much it costs to operate the express bus, but I haven't see any friggin' numbers on why the LIRR and MetroNorth is SO EXPENSIVE, especially considering that ridership on MetroNorth is supposed to be at an all time high. 

[qjtransitmaster]

Seriously? Why does anybody "belong" on any particular route? People have the right to take what's convenient for them. The only works if you're going to certain parts of Midtown. For anywhere else, you have to transfer to another subway line. Would you rather them overcrowd the Lexington Avenue Line, which is the most crowded line in the city?

 

Oh, wait, is this because there's a bunch of "illegals" coming off the and crowding your train?  Jackson Heights has always been a busy stop. When the economy was doing well, it was crowded, then when the economy went down, the crowding went down. Now it's picking up again, so you're seeing more crowds.

 

And yeah, keep on going with this crap about "Oh, we subsidize the city", just because your fare happens to be higher. The MTA's numbers say otherwise.

 

Yeah, it sucks that people have to pay that much for the LIRR, but don't sit there and make us in the city out to be the bad guys. And no, the city is still poorer than the suburbs, by a pretty decent margin. Sure, you have the wealthy areas in Manhattan, but the poverty rate in the city is just under 20%, compared to less than 10% out in Nassau.

 

As for NJT, they're marginally cheaper than the LIRR. To go out to Trenton (about 50 miles out) costs $15.50 IIRC, whereas going out to Ronkonkoma is now $17.50 during rush hour, or $12.75 off-peak. (Matter of fact, if you compare the monthlies, an NJT pass is $440, compared to $363 for the LIRR). At a glance, it looks like NJT is cheaper, but it's really not that much cheaper.

But NJT gives you more bang for your buck with rail passes NJT gives you local and all NJT buses and light rail at no extra charge. With LIRR you pay $100 extra for subway and bus. With NJT any NJT service works on your pass. Like if you want atlantic city for weekend you can use the same pass on riverline and atlantic city rail line to AC at no extra charge.

[Turbo19]

All I can say is riders of MNRR & LIRR are paying fares that are comparable of other commuter rail systems across the country. The previous fares seemed very low in my opinion.

[bobtehpanda]

Well I agree that the suburbs are getting soaked and that includes more suburban areas within city lines.  I think the real question is not who is subsidizing who because quite frankly, if it wasn't for the city, your LIRR rides would be even more expensive, but I do agree that the fares are getting out of hand and I would like to know WHY? There has been such fixation on how much it costs to operate the express bus, but I haven't see any friggin' numbers on why the LIRR and MetroNorth is SO EXPENSIVE, especially considering that ridership on MetroNorth is supposed to be at an all time high. 

 

Well, this report at least quantifies how expensive LIRR and MNRR are to operate. Both apparently have really crappy cost control, at least some of which is attributable to rising pension and debt service costs.

 

Now before I get shushed for suggesting that LIRR and MNRR could learn from other systems, most commuter rail operations in the United States, and across the world, do NOT use conductors to punch tickets. They use a "proof-of-payment" system, currently in use on New York's SBS. Basically, instead of conductors which are confined to one train at a time, passengers are expected to buy tickets on their honor. Those who are caught by fare inspectors are slapped with large fines, usually above $50-100. This reduces personnel costs by basically allowing a team of conductors to roam around the system, instead of being constrained to one train - roaming inspectors can do more work than conductors assigned to one train. Since the majority of riders are heading to Penn, Atlantic, Hunterspoint/LIC and (soon) GCT, you can focus inspection teams on the most heavily trafficked portions when they're running express, with less inspectors in the outer reaches of the system. Trains would probably have to keep one attendant on board to assist wheelchairs and those with difficulty with platform gaps, but POP would be more efficient overall.

 

The high in-city fares, if you want to be really cynical about it, could be seen as a way to get city riff-raff off the trains - most people are not going to pick a $8.75 option when the subway + bus is less than a third of the price. It's really effective, and CityTicket is great, but when was the last time you saw an ad for CityTicket, or heard a news anchor or politician mention that weekend tickets are $3.75?

[checkmatechamp13]

There has been such fixation on how much it costs to operate the express bus, but I haven't see any friggin' numbers on why the LIRR and MetroNorth is SO EXPENSIVE, especially considering that ridership on MetroNorth is supposed to be at an all time high. 

 

You see what you want to see.....

 

But NJT gives you more bang for your buck with rail passes NJT gives you local and all NJT buses and light rail at no extra charge. With LIRR you pay $100 extra for subway and bus. With NJT any NJT service works on your pass. Like if you want atlantic city for weekend you can use the same pass on riverline and atlantic city rail line to AC at no extra charge.

 

I know that. But that's still $77 more than the LIRR, and a large portion of the riders aren't using the additional services. They're just going to/from NYC.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well, this report at least quantifies how expensive LIRR and MNRR are to operate. Both apparently have really crappy cost control, at least some of which is attributable to rising pension and debt service costs.

 

Now before I get shushed for suggesting that LIRR and MNRR could learn from other systems, most commuter rail operations in the United States, and across the world, do NOT use conductors to punch tickets. They use a "proof-of-payment" system, currently in use on New York's SBS. Basically, instead of conductors which are confined to one train at a time, passengers are expected to buy tickets on their honor. Those who are caught by fare inspectors are slapped with large fines, usually above $50-100. This reduces personnel costs by basically allowing a team of conductors to roam around the system, instead of being constrained to one train - roaming inspectors can do more work than conductors assigned to one train. Since the majority of riders are heading to Penn, Atlantic, Hunterspoint/LIC and (soon) GCT, you can focus inspection teams on the most heavily trafficked portions when they're running express, with less inspectors in the outer reaches of the system. Trains would probably have to keep one attendant on board to assist wheelchairs and those with difficulty with platform gaps, but POP would be more efficient overall.

 

The high in-city fares, if you want to be really cynical about it, could be seen as a way to get city riff-raff off the trains - most people are not going to pick a $8.75 option when the subway + bus is less than a third of the price. It's really effective, and CityTicket is great, but when was the last time you saw an ad for CityTicket, or heard a news anchor or politician mention that weekend tickets are $3.75?

Very interesting... A lot of bloated costs, esp. maintenance costs... 

[Truckie]

Now before I get shushed for suggesting that LIRR and MNRR could learn from other systems, most commuter rail operations in the United States, and across the world, do NOT use conductors to punch tickets. They use a "proof-of-payment" system, currently in use on New York's SBS. Basically, instead of conductors which are confined to one train at a time, passengers are expected to buy tickets on their honor. Those who are caught by fare inspectors are slapped with large fines, usually above $50-100. This reduces personnel costs by basically allowing a team of conductors to roam around the system, instead of being constrained to one train - roaming inspectors can do more work than conductors assigned to one train. Since the majority of riders are heading to Penn, Atlantic, Hunterspoint/LIC and (soon) GCT, you can focus inspection teams on the most heavily trafficked portions when they're running express, with less inspectors in the outer reaches of the system. Trains would probably have to keep one attendant on board to assist wheelchairs and those with difficulty with platform gaps, but POP would be more efficient overall.

 

While the logic of "roaming conductors" looks great on paper for purposes of revenue, who would carry out the conductors (and assistant conductors) other responsibilities? 

 

As I stated previously, there are numerous stations that are curved.  That being said if the conductor closed the door blind to half the consist how is he going to be sure he's not closing the doors on a passenger with out the assistant keying out?

 

Other duties the conductor is responsible for is "backing up" the train if need be, trouble shooting running gear defects, train control apparatus failures, and brake issues to name a few.  Specific to New Haven Line equipment, in the event the engineer shows the pantographs are not down after changeover, it's up to the conductor to determine what car the issue is at and if need be he has to climb up the side of the train and lock down the pantograph.

 

Many times the RTC will get trouble indicators pertaining to the train and who is going to inspect the equipment with out conductors?

 

In short, what the public sees day to day is a very small portion of the conductor's responsibilities.  In fact, revenue (collecting tickets) is a low priority responsibility in the grand scheme of things.

[nostalgia]

 

While the logic of "roaming conductors" looks great on paper for purposes of revenue, who would carry out the conductors (and assistant conductors) other responsibilities? 

 

As I stated previously, there are numerous stations that are curved.  That being said if the conductor closed the door blind to half the consist how is he going to be sure he's not closing the doors on a passenger with out the assistant keying out?

 

Other duties the conductor is responsible for is "backing up" the train if need be, trouble shooting running gear defects, train control apparatus failures, and brake issues to name a few.  Specific to New Haven Line equipment, in the event the engineer shows the pantographs are not down after changeover, it's up to the conductor to determine what car the issue is at and if need be he has to climb up the side of the train and lock down the pantograph.

 

Many times the RTC will get trouble indicators pertaining to the train and who is going to inspect the equipment with out conductors?

 

In short, what the public sees day to day is a very small portion of the conductor's responsibilities.  In fact, revenue (collecting tickets) is a low priority responsibility in the grand scheme of things.

 

Virginia Rail Express (www.vre.org) uses the system described above in checking for validated tickets. However, these are REAL qualified conductors  not pseudo conductors on board just to check tickets.

[FamousNYLover]

On quiet car info, its only during the rush hours on both LIRR and Metro North.

 

LIRR http://www.nhl.com/ice/recap.htm?id=2012020311&navid=nhl:topheads

I took during PM Rush Hour when I was late for NICE Bus Meeting last Dec, so after I made mistake being on last car of Babylon Branch, I made to Oyster Bay Branch to Mineola, I took $9 taxi rider to Mitchel Field Depot.

[nostalgia]

I took during PM Rush Hour when I was late for NICE Bus Meeting last Dec, so after I made mistake being on last car of Babylon Branch, I made to Oyster Bay Branch to Mineola, I took $9 taxi rider to Mitchel Field Depot.

Here's the link for the quiet car: http://www.mta.info/supplemental/lirr/QuietCarPilotProgram.htm

 

I don't understand the connection between riding the quiet car on the Bablyon Branch and connecting with the Oyster Bay Branch.

[FamousNYLover]

Here's the link for the quiet car: http://www.mta.info/supplemental/lirr/QuietCarPilotProgram.htm

 

I don't understand the connection between riding the quiet car on the Bablyon Branch and connecting with the Oyster Bay Branch.

Quiet car only apply to first car during AM Peak toward NYC and last car on PM Rush Hour toward Long Island on M7 cars

I decided to try out Quiet Car and it wasn't working at all.

I took the train from Woosdie Station to Mineola via Jamaica.

[imagineverything]

While the logic of "roaming conductors" looks great on paper for purposes of revenue, who would carry out the conductors (and assistant conductors) other responsibilities? 

 

As I stated previously, there are numerous stations that are curved.  That being said if the conductor closed the door blind to half the consist how is he going to be sure he's not closing the doors on a passenger with out the assistant keying out?

 

Other duties the conductor is responsible for is "backing up" the train if need be, trouble shooting running gear defects, train control apparatus failures, and brake issues to name a few.  Specific to New Haven Line equipment, in the event the engineer shows the pantographs are not down after changeover, it's up to the conductor to determine what car the issue is at and if need be he has to climb up the side of the train and lock down the pantograph.

 

Many times the RTC will get trouble indicators pertaining to the train and who is going to inspect the equipment with out conductors?

 

In short, what the public sees day to day is a very small portion of the conductor's responsibilities.  In fact, revenue (collecting tickets) is a low priority responsibility in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

This is all unnecessary.

 

First and most important point: The LIRR is essentially the Long Island Subway (especially on the Babylon branch and its sub branches). Meaning it shares almost no trackage with freight. 

 

You will tell me about the NY&A and I will tell you that from my house (250 feet from Merrick Station) I have seen 2 NY&A trains since 2002 (when we moved here.)

 

Just make the LIRR a closed passenger only system (since we arent getting any cross harbor freight tunnel anytime soon) and other than interfacing with other passenger rail at Harold and NYP, it will be functionally the same as  NYCS.

 

In fact, if the LIRR just stopped going to NYP, and use just Atlantic and GCT, it could just entirely on its own separated track like an express subway.

 

And yes, payroll is over 50% of operating costs for the Babylon Branch. With Automated train operation, the fares would actually cover 100% of operations and may even profit on heavily used lines.

 

Time to stop the madness and upgrade the system - stop this archaic madness about doors and platforms and sick passengers. It works fine for rail system around the world and us Long Islanders aren't so special that we need a highly paid conductor to wipe our butts.

[PinePower]

Seriously? Why does anybody "belong" on any particular route? People have the right to take what's convenient for them. The only works if you're going to certain parts of Midtown. For anywhere else, you have to transfer to another subway line. Would you rather them overcrowd the Lexington Avenue Line, which is the most crowded line in the city?

 

Oh, wait, is this because there's a bunch of "illegals" coming off the and crowding your train?  Jackson Heights has always been a busy stop. When the economy was doing well, it was crowded, then when the economy went down, the crowding went down. Now it's picking up again, so you're seeing more crowds.

 

And yeah, keep on going with this crap about "Oh, we subsidize the city", just because your fare happens to be higher. The MTA's numbers say otherwise.

 

Yeah, it sucks that people have to pay that much for the LIRR, but don't sit there and make us in the city out to be the bad guys. And no, the city is still poorer than the suburbs, by a pretty decent margin. Sure, you have the wealthy areas in Manhattan, but the poverty rate in the city is just under 20%, compared to less than 10% out in Nassau.

 

As for NJT, they're marginally cheaper than the LIRR. To go out to Trenton (about 50 miles out) costs $15.50 IIRC, whereas going out to Ronkonkoma is now $17.50 during rush hour, or $12.75 off-peak. (Matter of fact, if you compare the monthlies, an NJT pass is $440, compared to $363 for the LIRR). At a glance, it looks like NJT is cheaper, but it's really not that much cheaper.

 

Here's the deal with the mobs at Jackson Heights. They jam up the F train to mega-sardine can, and usually mostly get off at 63-Lex. On the E, they're going to Queens Plaza (again, 7 QB Plaza is nearby), and 53/Lex. Guess what, the 7 has an across the platform transfer to the N or Q, which goes to 60/Lex, which has an actual connection to the Lexington line (unlike 63rd). You can also get the lex line at GCT. And lets not forget that the R also serves 60/Lex, and the M will serve the 53/lex and 6th ave. So there's no real reason that all these ppl have to jam on the E or F which is already crowded before it pulls into Jackson Heights. My solution would be to make Jackson Heights a local station. Sometimes you just have to force people to change. That was the reason for the V (and later M) to provide local service to 53rd street, instead of everyone jamming on the E. Bad enough the escalators always break at Jackson Heights, probably due to all the transfers to and from the 7. The 7 connects up with plenty of lines at QB Plaza, GCT, and Times Square. If I was getting the 7 from Flushing or Corona or wherever I'd stay on and xfer at QB Plaza, GCT, or Times Sq. Well now you know why I feel those 7 riders need to stay upstairs because we simply DONT HAVE ROOM. I just dont understand why people get off a train to get on another more crowded one that goes to the same place. As for time savings on the express, I'm sure that's mitigated by the time it takes to travel from the 7 upstairs to the E/F downstairs.

[bobtehpanda]

Here's the deal with the mobs at Jackson Heights. They jam up the F train to mega-sardine can, and usually mostly get off at 63-Lex. On the E, they're going to Queens Plaza (again, 7 QB Plaza is nearby), and 53/Lex. Guess what, the 7 has an across the platform transfer to the N or Q, which goes to 60/Lex, which has an actual connection to the Lexington line (unlike 63rd). You can also get the lex line at GCT. And lets not forget that the R also serves 60/Lex, and the M will serve the 53/lex and 6th ave. So there's no real reason that all these ppl have to jam on the E or F which is already crowded before it pulls into Jackson Heights. My solution would be to make Jackson Heights a local station. Sometimes you just have to force people to change. That was the reason for the V (and later M) to provide local service to 53rd street, instead of everyone jamming on the E. Bad enough the escalators always break at Jackson Heights, probably due to all the transfers to and from the 7. The 7 connects up with plenty of lines at QB Plaza, GCT, and Times Square. If I was getting the 7 from Flushing or Corona or wherever I'd stay on and xfer at QB Plaza, GCT, or Times Sq. Well now you know why I feel those 7 riders need to stay upstairs because we simply DONT HAVE ROOM. I just dont understand why people get off a train to get on another more crowded one that goes to the same place. As for time savings on the express, I'm sure that's mitigated by the time it takes to travel from the 7 upstairs to the E/F downstairs.

 

I don't know if you've ever ridden the during peak hours, but QBP, GCT, 5th Av, and Times Square are ALSO overcrowded stations with high transfer volumes. GCT in particular has very narrow transfer passages and stairways to the Lexington Av Line, and Times Sq is the busiest station in the system. Roosevelt is certainly less utilized than the other transfers listed, because it doesn't have to deal with people coming off of the as well.

 

Also, making Roosevelt a local stop isn't going to solve anything - it's actually going to make the situation worse, because the Queens Blvd Line already has crappy express stop spacing, and all of the local riders on the are going to switch to the at Queens Plaza because there's no service at that station. (Also, as a daily rider on the , the train is packed at least until 42nd or 34th - a lot of people are headed for the 53rd St stops. The transfer at 63rd/Lex is used, but it's not that big - most of the people taking the at that point are actually headed to destinations on or a transfer away from the .

 

There is no additional capacity on any line running through LIC and Midtown, besides the . There simply isn't enough room.