Why are LIRR/Metro North fares so high compared to the subway?

[LIRR 154]

Virginia Rail Express (www.vre.org) uses the system described above in checking for validated tickets. However, these are REAL qualified conductors  not pseudo conductors on board just to check tickets.

Lol this is the most dumbest statement in this thread. If you only knew what LIRR/MNRR conductors have to do to be certified by FRA mind you .

[nostalgia]

nostalgia, on 05 Mar 2013 - 02:17, said:

 

Virginia Rail Express (www.vre.org) uses the system described above in checking for validated tickets. However, these are REAL qualified conductors not pseudo conductors on board just to check tickets.

 

 

Lol this is the most dumbest statement in this thread. If you only knew what LIRR/MNRR conductors have to do to be certified by FRA mind you .

 You really should get the facts before you show how little you know. VRE conductors have to be certified by FRA as well. In fact, it's more  difficult to become a VRE conductor than a LIRR/MNRR conductor. VRE trains operate over MULTIPLE railroads and employees have to know the rules of each railroad. The conductors were Amtrak Zone 5 employees before Keolis won the agreement when the contract came up for bid.

[LIRR 154]

nostalgia, on 05 Mar 2013 - 02:17, said:

 

 

 

 

 You really should get the facts before you show how little you know. VRE conductors have to be certified by FRA as well. In fact, it's more  difficult to become a VRE conductor than a LIRR/MNRR conductor. VRE trains operate over MULTIPLE railroads and employees have to know the rules of each railroad. The conductors were Amtrak Zone 5 employees before Keolis won the agreement when the contract came up for bid.

I guess both commuter rail conductors don't have to know Amtrak rules either? So just because either RR doesn't cross through multiple territories as you stressed they are not real RR conductors? Hmm makes sense .. Great logic my friend.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I guess both commuter rail conductors don't have to know Amtrak rules either? So just because either RR doesn't cross through multiple territories as you stressed they are not real RR conductors? Hmm makes sense .. Great logic my friend.

I'd love it if either of you could answer the original question of the OP, which only one person so far seems to have partially answered.... 

[FamousNYLover]

Here's the deal with the mobs at Jackson Heights. They jam up the F train to mega-sardine can, and usually mostly get off at 63-Lex. On the E, they're going to Queens Plaza (again, 7 QB Plaza is nearby), and 53/Lex. Guess what, the 7 has an across the platform transfer to the N or Q, which goes to 60/Lex, which has an actual connection to the Lexington line (unlike 63rd). You can also get the lex line at GCT. And lets not forget that the R also serves 60/Lex, and the M will serve the 53/lex and 6th ave. So there's no real reason that all these ppl have to jam on the E or F which is already crowded before it pulls into Jackson Heights. My solution would be to make Jackson Heights a local station. Sometimes you just have to force people to change. That was the reason for the V (and later M) to provide local service to 53rd street, instead of everyone jamming on the E. Bad enough the escalators always break at Jackson Heights, probably due to all the transfers to and from the 7. The 7 connects up with plenty of lines at QB Plaza, GCT, and Times Square. If I was getting the 7 from Flushing or Corona or wherever I'd stay on and xfer at QB Plaza, GCT, or Times Sq. Well now you know why I feel those 7 riders need to stay upstairs because we simply DONT HAVE ROOM. I just dont understand why people get off a train to get on another more crowded one that goes to the same place. As for time savings on the express, I'm sure that's mitigated by the time it takes to travel from the 7 upstairs to the E/F downstairs.

Lots of people transfer to because is faster than . Sometimes EXP or LCL operators sometimes drives slow. Sometimes there are train traffic on Flushing Line sometimes it could spread to Court Sq. I have been on PM Rush Hour express that got stuck in Steinway Tunnel for 30 minutes because of rail condition and both direction was using same track.

Also during rush hour, it's crush loaded I have seen, including is mostly overcrowded because makes less stop than in Queens.

Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av is major transportation hub. Not  counting bus connection to LGA Airport or Atlas Park Mall, so it's an important to keep Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Av local/express station.

[bobtehpanda]

Back to OP: fares are so high because operating costs are extremely high compared to NYCT and other commuter rail operations, and because, according to textbook economics at least, the prices are used to regulate demand. Even with in-city peak fares three times higher than the subway, LIRR trains out of Jamaica have all of their seats filled during the AM rush. There isn't much scope for a peak-capacity increase - trains depart Jamaica roughly every four to six minutes, and LIRR can't even run this amount of trains reliably on a day-to-day basis. (For a comparison, the Queens Blvd expresses run 30TPH in one direction, and they aren't that slow until they hit the local tracks in Manhattan.) Off-peak, there isn't enough outlying demand to run more LIRR trains, and I don't think the LIRR would ever contemplate short-turning runs at Jamaica. (Port Washington is a different animal - there may be enough demand to run a quasi-rapid transit service all day to Great Neck if fares are lowered, but the limiting factor is track capacity into Penn and running costs.)

 

Even if we don't consider the fact that LIRR is almost full, you are paying for better service. At the very least, you're getting a ride that's 20 or 30 minutes vs 1 or 2 hours into Midtown, your seat is more comfortable, and there aren't any hobos or panhandlers harassing you. Judging by current LIRR utilization, many people have judged that the benefits are worth the increased costs. I make a LIRR commute into Penn daily, and I pay the higher fares primarily so I can get an extra half-hour of sleep every day (but my experience is skewed because I pay for a reduced-price student pass, and yes, those exist.)

 

Any significant lowering of fares is going to require some sort of capacity increase to deal with the increased ridership that'll come with it, and a substantial change in institutional and working culture to adapt to increased numbers of in-city commuters.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Back to OP: fares are so high because operating costs are extremely high compared to NYCT and other commuter rail operations, and because, according to textbook economics at least, the prices are used to regulate demand. Even with in-city peak fares three times higher than the subway, LIRR trains out of Jamaica have all of their seats filled during the AM rush. There isn't much scope for a peak-capacity increase - trains depart Jamaica roughly every four to six minutes, and LIRR can't even run this amount of trains reliably on a day-to-day basis. (For a comparison, the Queens Blvd expresses run 30TPH in one direction, and they aren't that slow until they hit the local tracks in Manhattan.) Off-peak, there isn't enough outlying demand to run more LIRR trains, and I don't think the LIRR would ever contemplate short-turning runs at Jamaica. (Port Washington is a different animal - there may be enough demand to run a quasi-rapid transit service all day to Great Neck if fares are lowered, but the limiting factor is track capacity into Penn and running costs.)

 

Even if we don't consider the fact that LIRR is almost full, you are paying for better service. At the very least, you're getting a ride that's 20 or 30 minutes vs 1 or 2 hours into Midtown, your seat is more comfortable, and there aren't any hobos or panhandlers harassing you. Judging by current LIRR utilization, many people have judged that the benefits are worth the increased costs. I make a LIRR commute into Penn daily, and I pay the higher fares primarily so I can get an extra half-hour of sleep every day (but my experience is skewed because I pay for a reduced-price student pass, and yes, those exist.)

 

Any significant lowering of fares is going to require some sort of capacity increase to deal with the increased ridership that'll come with it, and a substantial change in institutional and working culture to adapt to increased numbers of in-city commuters.

So you're arguing that if the fares got so high that ridership dropped on the LIRR or MetroNorth then perhaps the fares would be lowered to attract more riders? Is that the idea? IMO, if they're going to keep raising the fares and ridership continues to grow then they should be taking some of the monies they get from fares and investing it back in service improvements.  I'm sorry but I should not have to stand on a MNRR train when I'm paying $11.00 one way ($8.50 + $2.50 for the Hudson Rail Link).  Hell if I got on later on the Hudson Rail Link I wouldn't get a seat with that either because often times there are standees as we get closer to the station, so you could be standing for 40 - 45 minutes...  If the weather is bad I will sure be doing just that too and I have a pay-per-ride since I haven't been in the mood for traveling that much of late.

[bobtehpanda]

So you're arguing that if the fares got so high that ridership dropped on the LIRR or MetroNorth then perhaps the fares would be lowered to attract more riders? Is that the idea? IMO, if they're going to keep raising the fares and ridership continues to grow then they should be taking some of the monies they get from fares and investing it back in service improvements.  I'm sorry but I should not have to stand on a MNRR train when I'm paying $11.00 one way ($8.50 + $2.50 for the Hudson Rail Link).  Hell if I got on later on the Hudson Rail Link I wouldn't get a seat with that either because often times there are standees as we get closer to the station, so you could be standing for 40 - 45 minutes...  If the weather is bad I will sure be doing just that too and I have a pay-per-ride since I haven't been in the mood for traveling that much of late.

 

Theoretically, yes, but you'd need to go very, very high to do that. Manhattan basically is at the limit of its car-carrying capacity, and the subway is at its limits, so as long as there are more people in the 'burbs with jobs in Manhattan, there will always be high demand for the rail services into Manhattan.

 

Keep in mind that every dollar you pay and a little bit more goes directly to fund the commuter rail operations. They have some of the worst cost-performance statistics in the nation, despite carrying the most people. MNRR and LIRR both have costs per rider of $10+ - your fares may be high, but you're still not covering its costs. I don't think that figure accounts for pension and capital costs, either - MNRR and LIRR also have to plow money into paying their employees and their various service expansions and rolling stock replacements. The subway, by contrast, costs $1.40 per rider.

 

If MNRR and LIRR came close to covering their costs, you could justify lowering fares, but they don't.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Theoretically, yes, but you'd need to go very, very high to do that. Manhattan basically is at the limit of its car-carrying capacity, and the subway is at its limits, so as long as there are more people in the 'burbs with jobs in Manhattan, there will always be high demand for the rail services into Manhattan.

 

Keep in mind that every dollar you pay and a little bit more goes directly to fund the commuter rail operations. They have some of the worst cost-performance statistics in the nation, despite carrying the most people. MNRR and LIRR both have costs per rider of $10+ - your fares may be high, but you're still not covering its costs. I don't think that figure accounts for pension and capital costs, either - MNRR and LIRR also have to plow money into paying their employees and their various service expansions and rolling stock replacements. The subway, by contrast, costs $1.40 per rider.

 

If MNRR and LIRR came close to covering their costs, you could justify lowering fares, but they don't.

The question why are their cost-performance stats so high because the prices IMO don't justify the service.  Yes, generally MNRR is pretty reliable and on time but the trains are as crowded as subways with people standing all over the place.  

[RtrainBlues]

Why the difference in cost for $10/LIRR vs $1.40/subway?  Is it the cost of electricity to run the trains?  I can't see how a 20 mile ride from Brooklyn to Floral Park on the LIRR would cost 10 times as much in electricity as a 15 mile ride on the E train from WTC to Jamaica. 

 

Maybe it's all the highly compensated personnel on the LIRR trains who are punching the tickets.  A subway train only has 2 workers (driving and opening/closing doors), and a LIRR car has at least 5 people (4 of who are punching tickets).

 

Or maybe they realize they're driving so many people away with the high fares (who drive or take the subway/bus combo instead) that they need to double or triple the fares to get the total dollar amount they need in their budget.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why the difference in cost for $10/LIRR vs $1.40/subway?  Is it the cost of electricity to run the trains?  I can't see how a 20 mile ride from Brooklyn to Floral Park on the LIRR would cost 10 times as much in electricity as a 15 mile ride on the E train from WTC to Jamaica. 

 

Maybe it's all the highly compensated personnel on the LIRR trains who are punching the tickets.  A subway train only has 2 workers (driving and opening/closing doors), and a LIRR car has at least 5 people (4 of who are punching tickets).

 

Or maybe they realize they're driving so many people away with the high fares (who drive or take the subway/bus combo instead) that they need to double or triple the fares to get the total dollar amount they need in their budget.

From what's been stated here, it seems as if the LIRR has out of control costs that they don't have a grip on, so they just pass the cost onto the customers.

[LTA1992]

The Washington, DC subway system fares are based on distance and time of day (off-peak, peak, and peak of the peak). You would find those fares more comparable to LIRR and Metro North. NOTE: The Washington subway is a one person operation.

BART too. Except, you know, Automated.

[RtrainBlues]

I've ridden the DC subway and their fares are MUCH cheaper than the LIRR, even peak fares for comparable distances.  For example, the off-peak Washington DC maximum fare is $3.50 for a ride as long as Vienna on the orange line to Suitland on the green line.  A much shorter ride (distance wise) off-peak from East NY to Hempstead on the LIRR costs $8.00. You'd think the LIRR would want to attract people to its empty off-peak trains, not turn them away.

[bobtehpanda]

Why the difference in cost for $10/LIRR vs $1.40/subway?  Is it the cost of electricity to run the trains?  I can't see how a 20 mile ride from Brooklyn to Floral Park on the LIRR would cost 10 times as much in electricity as a 15 mile ride on the E train from WTC to Jamaica. 

 

Maybe it's all the highly compensated personnel on the LIRR trains who are punching the tickets.  A subway train only has 2 workers (driving and opening/closing doors), and a LIRR car has at least 5 people (4 of who are punching tickets).

 

Or maybe they realize they're driving so many people away with the high fares (who drive or take the subway/bus combo instead) that they need to double or triple the fares to get the total dollar amount they need in their budget.

 

Well, for starters, the LIRR has a sizable diesel fleet, and fuel prices are never going back down to their pre-2000s levels.

 

Also, more staff on trains, and more staff = more money.

[qjtransitmaster]

Well, for starters, the LIRR has a sizable diesel fleet, and fuel prices are never going back down to their pre-2000s levels.

 

Also, more staff on trains, and more staff = more money.

other ppl like MBTA have nothing but diesel why are their costs not as high?

 

what makes METRA efficient?

[bobtehpanda]

other ppl like MBTA have nothing but diesel why are their costs not as high?

 

Well, the MTA also operates routes along the entire 110-odd miles of Long Island. Service east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon is horrid, and LIRR is not time-competitive with automobile travel at all. Potential riders usually drive, and some also take the premium Hampton Jitney. Yet, despite low ridership, the MTA is still running full-length trains to these areas, even though in most cases you probably don't need a six-car or seven-car train to serve these areas.

 

Here's an old article about the MTA purchasing DMUs in the 2010-2014 capital budget. Does anyone know if this ever actually happened?

[Vistausss]

Got only one sentence about those DMU's: "That DMU purchase is just a placeholder", as AndrewJC would say. Carry on.

[qjtransitmaster]

Well, the MTA also operates routes along the entire 110-odd miles of Long Island. Service east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon is horrid, and LIRR is not time-competitive with automobile travel at all. Potential riders usually drive, and some also take the premium Hampton Jitney. Yet, despite low ridership, the MTA is still running full-length trains to these areas, even though in most cases you probably don't need a six-car or seven-car train to serve these areas.

 

Here's an old article about the MTA purchasing DMUs in the 2010-2014 capital budget. Does anyone know if this ever actually happened?

What does MBTA do that MTA doesn't to keep costs much lower inspite of lack of electrification and speed to beat out long distance commuter buses? What does METRA do differently?

[Kamen Rider]

MBTA and METRA don't operate all day for one thing. There is only about a 20 minute gap between the last train of the night on the Hudson and New Haven branches reaching the end of the line and the fist train of the day leaving. On the MBTA, there is a three to four hour gap with no passenger trains running

[qjtransitmaster]

MBTA and METRA don't operate all day for one thing. There is only about a 20 minute gap between the last train of the night on the Hudson and New Haven branches reaching the end of the line and the fist train of the day leaving. On the MBTA, there is a three to four hour gap with no passenger trains running

So there are like several DH runs ? after a certain point? And MTA's frequent service comes at a price that makes it inefficient?

 

If METRA has high ridership on par with MNRR and LIRR why do they not run all day?

[bobtehpanda]

So there are like several DH runs ? after a certain point? And MTA's frequent service comes at a price that makes it inefficient?

 

If METRA has high ridership on par with MNRR and LIRR why do they not run all day?

 

Well yes, service costs money to operate (and if you think service to Montauk is frequent, then I have a bridge to sell you...)

 

MNRR is weird because MNRR has the New Haven Line, and New Haven is a big enough destination and far enough away that you could reasonably classify that as an inter-city service. For the most part, however, MNRR, LIRR, and Metra, are all commuter services - they're designed for people who work 9-5 who live in the burbs, but not much else. They don't do frequent service within the suburbs - the station spacing is too far apart and too inconvenient for that, and the highways are almost always faster for point-to-point travel out there. MNRR, again, is an outlier (somewhat) in this sense due to the fact that they also have a sizable amount of reverse commuters, but that's another story.

 

The downside of this is that commuter services aren't designed to be used outside of peak commute hours, so ridership during those times declines, and overnight ridership is almost non-existent. Because it costs a lot to run a diesel service (operators, conductors, keeping stations open, fuel, maintenance, etc.), that, coupled with relatively low ridership east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon, is going to make cost per rider really high for those runs (high cost divided by low amounts of riders).

 

This obviously can't account for ALL of the difference, but it makes some difference.

[qjtransitmaster]

Well yes, service costs money to operate (and if you think service to Montauk is frequent, then I have a bridge to sell you...)

 

MNRR is weird because MNRR has the New Haven Line, and New Haven is a big enough destination and far enough away that you could reasonably classify that as an inter-city service. For the most part, however, MNRR, LIRR, and Metra, are all commuter services - they're designed for people who work 9-5 who live in the burbs, but not much else. They don't do frequent service within the suburbs - the station spacing is too far apart and too inconvenient for that, and the highways are almost always faster for point-to-point travel out there. MNRR, again, is an outlier (somewhat) in this sense due to the fact that they also have a sizable amount of reverse commuters, but that's another story.

 

The downside of this is that commuter services aren't designed to be used outside of peak commute hours, so ridership during those times declines, and overnight ridership is almost non-existent. Because it costs a lot to run a diesel service (operators, conductors, keeping stations open, fuel, maintenance, etc.), that, coupled with relatively low ridership east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon, is going to make cost per rider really high for those runs (high cost divided by low amounts of riders).

 

This obviously can't account for ALL of the difference, but it makes some difference.

Highways are faster for LI travel but I don't know about CT I-95 can suck hard at times. LIRR is quicker in nassau but not suffolk. Metra has pace but pace has weak crosstown highway bus service that would consolidate many routes actually. Fortunately they have vanpools.

 

If diesel costs so much why not switch to natural gas locomotives?

[RtrainBlues]

That doesn't explain the huge difference in suburban fares in Washington DC's metro: Vienna, VA to Suitland, MD is no more than a $3.50 fare off-peak (25 miles) if you're traveling at let's say 12 noon.  It costs almost TRIPLE the price to go the shorter distance from Forest Hills to Hicksville on an off-peak LIRR train at 12 noon (22 miles, $9.00).  No wonder why these LIRR trains are often empty every time I take them, and the N22/N24/N6 buses are standing room only to the point they can't take on any more passengers (so successful that they have implemented limited-stop service).

[bobtehpanda]

That doesn't explain the huge difference in suburban fares in Washington DC's metro: Vienna, VA to Suitland, MD is no more than a $3.50 fare off-peak (25 miles) if you're traveling at let's say 12 noon.  It costs almost TRIPLE the price to go the shorter distance from Forest Hills to Hicksville on an off-peak LIRR train at 12 noon (22 miles, $9.00).  No wonder why these LIRR trains are often empty every time I take them, and the N22/N24/N6 buses are standing room only to the point they can't take on any more passengers (so successful that they have implemented limited-stop service).

 

LIRR has bloated costs, including pensions and health-care costs, and has five employees on every train. That probably has something to do with it. The Metro (which is more akin to a subway system, in any case) is automated and only has a single employee on every train. LIRR also has to maintain track that covers all of the length of Long Island, and while Metro is expansive, it's not nearly as geographically big as LIRR's system, and LIRR also has the least ridership on its far-flung branches. LIRR also has to maintain two fleets of vehicles, while Metro maintains vehicles that are largely similar.

 

Basically, everyone close in is subsidizing the rides of those who live farthest out there, and the amount you're giving to LIRR to fund the Montauk trains and such increases the closer you get to Manhattan. Those hardest hit are those who actually bother to take the train from in-city stations - they pay $8.75 for trains that may not even stop at their station half the time.

[qjtransitmaster]

LIRR has bloated costs, including pensions and health-care costs, and has five employees on every train. That probably has something to do with it. The Metro (which is more akin to a subway system, in any case) is automated and only has a single employee on every train. LIRR also has to maintain track that covers all of the length of Long Island, and while Metro is expansive, it's not nearly as geographically big as LIRR's system, and LIRR also has the least ridership on its far-flung branches. LIRR also has to maintain two fleets of vehicles, while Metro maintains vehicles that are largely similar.

 

Basically, everyone close in is subsidizing the rides of those who live farthest out there, and the amount you're giving to LIRR to fund the Montauk trains and such increases the closer you get to Manhattan. Those hardest hit are those who actually bother to take the train from in-city stations - they pay $8.75 for trains that may not even stop at their station half the time.

why can't LIRR get rid of those pensions? and reduce the employees on the train?