Why are LIRR/Metro North fares so high compared to the subway?

[Kamen Rider]

Get rid of pensions? are you out of your mind? You want a riot on your hands? I'm a true blue fiscal conservative, and even I think that's insane...

 

So there are like several DH runs ? after a certain point? And MTA's frequent service comes at a price that makes it inefficient?

 

If METRA has high ridership on par with MNRR and LIRR why do they not run all day?

 

No, I'm talking passenger carrying trains. The last trains to leave Grand Central, "The Drunk Trains" arrive at thier destistations only a few minutes before the first inbound passenger trains leave. The last New Haven Express for the night 1502, the 1:47AM departure, arrives at New Haven at 3:56AM. The first inbound train, 1503, leaves at 4:11 AM, 15 mintues later. The last Hudson line train leaves GCT at 1:50. It connects at 2:58 with a shuttle to Poughkeepsie at Croton. The shuttle arrives at 3:57 AM. First inbound train leaves at 4:15, 18 minute gap.

[bobtehpanda]

why can't LIRR get rid of those pensions? and reduce the employees on the train?

 

I wouldn't want to bark up that tree in real life, and you're doing this on a transit forum where there are employees with accounts?

 

Have fun with that...

[qjtransitmaster]

I wouldn't want to bark up that tree in real life, and you're doing this on a transit forum where there are employees with accounts?

 

Have fun with that...

Well is there a better way to control out of control LIRR costs?

[LIRR 154]

why can't LIRR get rid of those pensions? and reduce the employees on the train?

FYI we pay for our own pensions. Railroad Retirement comes out of our pockets. When did the LIRR stand alone without being under the MTA. Carry on Clueless..

[N4 Via Merrick Rd]

QJ and his bright ideas.....

[qjtransitmaster]

FYI we pay for our own pensions. Railroad Retirement comes out of our pockets. When did the LIRR stand alone without being under the MTA. Carry on Clueless..

Ok that was random But what causes LIRR's bloated costs? If pensions are paid by employees it should be a non issue. What makes METRA cost so much less?

 

 

QJ and his bright ideas.....

STFU nobody asked you try to contribute instead of bashing others child.

[bobtehpanda]

Ok that was random But what causes LIRR's bloated costs? If pensions are paid by employees it should be a non issue. What makes METRA cost so much less?

 

STFU nobody asked you try to contribute instead of bashing others child.

 

Okay, here's how pensions work. Employees pay a portion of their salary into them, but employers also contribute, and in the MTA's case, they run a defined benefit scheme - upon retiring, your benefits are spelled out, and you will be guaranteed these benefits. The problem is that MTA and the state contributed to these pension plans (and are still contributing to them) based on the assumption that they would be able to get returns of 6-8% a year. Since this didn't happen, MTA has to make up the difference for current retirees (and the state can't help, because the state is also in this mess). However, you can't just deny retirees benefits, because that's political suicide and a violation of contract law, and the MTA would lose any lawsuit that would be filed against this.

 

Also, don't start name calling.

[qjtransitmaster]

Okay, here's how pensions work. Employees pay a portion of their salary into them, but employers also contribute, and in the MTA's case, they run a defined benefit scheme - upon retiring, your benefits are spelled out, and you will be guaranteed these benefits. The problem is that MTA and the state contributed to these pension plans (and are still contributing to them) based on the assumption that they would be able to get returns of 6-8% a year. Since this didn't happen, MTA has to make up the difference for current retirees (and the state can't help, because the state is also in this mess). However, you can't just deny retirees benefits, because that's political suicide and a violation of contract law, and the MTA would lose any lawsuit that would be filed against this.

 

Also, don't start name calling.

Thanks for the explanation so it's more the economy to blame than anything else basically.  

[N4 Via Merrick Rd]

Ok that was random But what causes LIRR's bloated costs? If pensions are paid by employees it should be a non issue. What makes METRA cost so much less?

 

STFU nobody asked you try to contribute instead of bashing others child.

Gee..I was joking around.. you take it so seriously..

[LIRR 154]

Thanks for the explanation so it's more the economy to blame than anything else basically.  

It's not hard to see why MTA costs are higher then Metra. Cost of living in NY state, NY property taxes ,the size of MTA and how it runs 24/7 ,capital projects the list goes on and on.It's really simple.

[qjtransitmaster]

Gee..I was joking around.. you take it so seriously..

My apologies man sorry.

 

It's not hard to see why MTA costs are higher then Metra. Cost of living in NY state, NY property taxes ,the size of MTA and how it runs 24/7 ,capital projects the list goes on and on.It's really simple.

NY taxes add to operating cost of the LIRR that much?

[kentsfield]

MTA LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD

2013 February Adopted Budget

 

Revenue ( in millIons)

Farebox Revenue: $631.476

Other Operating Revenue: $51.069

Total Revenue:  $632.723 

 

Expenses

Labor:

Payroll: $434.365 

Overtime: $76.994 

Health and Welfare: $102.993

OPEB Current Payment:  $66.847 

Pensions: $181.046 

Other Fringe Benefits:  $109.459

Reimbursable Overhead: $22.312

Total Labor Expenses: $949.392 

 

Non-Labor:

Electric Power: $103.895

Fuel: $31.171

Insurance: $17.661

Claims:  $3.401

Materials & Supplies: $108.998 

Other Business Expenses: $10.093

Maintenance and Other Operating Contracts: $59.446

 

Total Non-Labor Expenses: $369.732

 

 

Fares should pick up the bulk of the slack. They could stand to be a lot higher without significant impact.

[Vistausss]

Well yes, service costs money to operate (and if you think service to Montauk is frequent, then I have a bridge to sell you...)

 

MNRR is weird because MNRR has the New Haven Line, and New Haven is a big enough destination and far enough away that you could reasonably classify that as an inter-city service. For the most part, however, MNRR, LIRR, and Metra, are all commuter services - they're designed for people who work 9-5 who live in the burbs, but not much else. They don't do frequent service within the suburbs - the station spacing is too far apart and too inconvenient for that, and the highways are almost always faster for point-to-point travel out there. MNRR, again, is an outlier (somewhat) in this sense due to the fact that they also have a sizable amount of reverse commuters, but that's another story.

 

The downside of this is that commuter services aren't designed to be used outside of peak commute hours, so ridership during those times declines, and overnight ridership is almost non-existent. Because it costs a lot to run a diesel service (operators, conductors, keeping stations open, fuel, maintenance, etc.), that, coupled with relatively low ridership east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon, is going to make cost per rider really high for those runs (high cost divided by low amounts of riders).

 

This obviously can't account for ALL of the difference, but it makes some difference.

 

LMAO highways are faster? Ever been on the LI Expressway in rush hour?

[bobtehpanda]

LMAO highways are faster? Ever been on the LI Expressway in rush hour?

 

If it takes you four hours to drive to Montauk, you drive slowly.

[RtrainBlues]

The vast majority of LIRR conductors are pleasant and helpful, but there are always a few bad apples.  An older woman who got on at East New York (Far Rockaway train, weekday morning) clearly didn't know she needed to buy a ticket beforehand, and thought the $10 cash would be more than enough to get to Nassau off-peak.  The heartless female conductor rudely said she needed to present ID so she could write her a bill she could pay in the mail.  No apology about the cost, no recommendation to buy a ticket beforehand to avoid the approx $15 fare onboard, just hand over your ID so you get the bill. The poor lady only had a Medicare card so that's what she presented as ID, and was shocked her $10 bill wasn't enough to cover it.  This Far Rockaway female conductor needs some diversity/sensitivity training, or perhaps she can simply step aside and let tons of other people apply for her job in this economy. 

[rr4567]

The vast majority of LIRR conductors are pleasant and helpful, but there are always a few bad apples.  An older woman who got on at East New York (Far Rockaway train, weekday morning) clearly didn't know she needed to buy a ticket beforehand, and thought the $10 cash would be more than enough to get to Nassau off-peak.  The heartless female conductor rudely said she needed to present ID so she could write her a bill she could pay in the mail.  No apology about the cost, no recommendation to buy a ticket beforehand to avoid the approx $15 fare onboard, just hand over your ID so you get the bill. The poor lady only had a Medicare card so that's what she presented as ID, and was shocked her $10 bill wasn't enough to cover it.  This Far Rockaway female conductor needs some diversity/sensitivity training, or perhaps she can simply step aside and let tons of other people apply for her job in this economy. 

Let me simplify.......Some people need to remove that stick from deep within their ass.

[Burrstone]

 

MTA LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD

2013 February Adopted Budget

 

Revenue ( in millIons)

Farebox Revenue: $631.476

Other Operating Revenue: $51.069

Total Revenue:  $632.723 

 

Expenses

Labor:

Payroll: $434.365 

Overtime: $76.994 

Health and Welfare: $102.993

OPEB Current Payment:  $66.847 

Pensions: $181.046 

Other Fringe Benefits:  $109.459

Reimbursable Overhead: $22.312

Total Labor Expenses: $949.392 

 

Non-Labor:

Electric Power: $103.895

Fuel: $31.171

Insurance: $17.661

Claims:  $3.401

Materials & Supplies: $108.998 

Other Business Expenses: $10.093

Maintenance and Other Operating Contracts: $59.446

 

Total Non-Labor Expenses: $369.732

 

 

Fares should pick up the bulk of the slack. They could stand to be a lot higher without significant impact.

 

That is very eye opening, thanks for posting it.

 

I wonder what percentage of the labor costs are the ticket punchers? 

 

I know there has been discussion on these forums about eliminating the ticket punchers and putting turnstyles at stations.  That obviously wouldn't work because of the different fares and destinations.

 

As I was pondering this, it sounds crazy, but the solution would be to make the LIRR free, drastically reducing labor costs.  Actually a better idea would be to install turnstyles and charge a low $2.50-$5.00 fare each way.  Not only would this bring money into the system but help out hard working families who are financial trouble in these difficult times.  Look at this way, many people are out of work, just one job interview living on Long Island costs people $20-$30 just to get to/from a job interview!  pretty tough if you're unemployed...

 

The economy is in troule the trouble and the private sector has had to make cuts...  The LIRR saya "we serve with pride."  But the MTA LIRR makes no cuts or restructures there system, just raise fares.  Making no cuts just and continuing to pay people a nice salary to punch tickets is disrepectful to the people they serve.

[LIRR 154]

Hmm a lot a blame to the frontline workers , no blame to management and the president herself who gave themselves bonuses on top of living allowances. Who also work a normal 9-5 with weekends while all of us RR and Transit work weird hours ,weekends,holidays miss family gatherings in dangerous conditions and all weather get the blame. They have succeeded in the twisting minds. Every worker there are at least 2 or 3 managers and supervisors. Carry On ..

[tun]

The vast majority of LIRR conductors are pleasant and helpful, but there are always a few bad apples.  An older woman who got on at East New York (Far Rockaway train, weekday morning) clearly didn't know she needed to buy a ticket beforehand, and thought the $10 cash would be more than enough to get to Nassau off-peak.  The heartless female conductor rudely said she needed to present ID so she could write her a bill she could pay in the mail.  No apology about the cost, no recommendation to buy a ticket beforehand to avoid the approx $15 fare onboard, just hand over your ID so you get the bill. The poor lady only had a Medicare card so that's what she presented as ID, and was shocked her $10 bill wasn't enough to cover it.  This Far Rockaway female conductor needs some diversity/sensitivity training, or perhaps she can simply step aside and let tons of other people apply for her job in this economy. 

That's odd. If she had a medicare card, it only costs $5.50 if she was going from zone 1 to 4. Pretty much every conductor hates writing out ADLs so I'm surprised she would resort to that first.

[checkmatechamp13]

That's odd. If she had a medicare card, it only costs $5.50 if she was going from zone 1 to 4. Pretty much every conductor hates writing out ADLs so I'm surprised she would resort to that first.

 

Do they waive the onboard fare if it's a senior? I think they do that with NJT.

[qjtransitmaster]

That is very eye opening, thanks for posting it.

 

I wonder what percentage of the labor costs are the ticket punchers? 

 

I know there has been discussion on these forums about eliminating the ticket punchers and putting turnstyles at stations.  That obviously wouldn't work because of the different fares and destinations.

 

As I was pondering this, it sounds crazy, but the solution would be to make the LIRR free, drastically reducing labor costs.  Actually a better idea would be to install turnstyles and charge a low $2.50-$5.00 fare each way.  Not only would this bring money into the system but help out hard working families who are financial trouble in these difficult times.  Look at this way, many people are out of work, just one job interview living on Long Island costs people $20-$30 just to get to/from a job interview!  pretty tough if you're unemployed...

 

The economy is in troule the trouble and the private sector has had to make cuts...  The LIRR saya "we serve with pride."  But the MTA LIRR makes no cuts or restructures there system, just raise fares.  Making no cuts just and continuing to pay people a nice salary to punch tickets is disrepectful to the people they serve.

That is not a reason why it won't work cause well tri-rail and WMATA have zone based fare gates with tri rail having tap machines. WMATA charges by the distance with turnstiles so if that were the real problem it can work with LIRR then merge the fare structure with a new smartcard that will also replace metrocards unifying the entire MTA network. However if the cost to add em is stupid high that however is a valid concern and reason not to but due to zone not really.

 

Do they waive the onboard fare if it's a senior? I think they do that with NJT.

nope.

[Burrstone]

That is not a reason why it won't work cause well tri-rail and WMATA have zone based fare gates with tri rail having tap machines. WMATA charges by the distance with turnstiles so if that were the real problem it can work with LIRR then merge the fare structure with a new smartcard that will also replace metrocards unifying the entire MTA network. However if the cost to add em is stupid high that however is a valid concern and reason not to but due to zone not really.

 

How does that system work?  Do you scan when you get on and scan when you get off?  How else will the system know what zones the person travels through?  If they selected the zones themseleves what would keep passengers from selecting the zones with the lowest fares? 

 

 

However if the cost to add em is stupid high that however is a valid concern and reason not to but due to zone not really.

 

Of course, as with anything cost is a concern.  If the cost over X period of years is less than lablor costs for ticket punchers it's worth a look.

[RtrainBlues]

You tap in & tap out with your DC metro pass (just like how you tap for the PATH train).  Fares vary by peak vs off-peak and station of origin/destination. A 20 mile ride on the DC regional railroad from Virginia to Maryland costs 1/3 the price of a 20 mile ride on the LIRR regional railroad.

[bobtehpanda]

That is very eye opening, thanks for posting it.

 

I wonder what percentage of the labor costs are the ticket punchers? 

 

I know there has been discussion on these forums about eliminating the ticket punchers and putting turnstyles at stations.  That obviously wouldn't work because of the different fares and destinations.

 

As I was pondering this, it sounds crazy, but the solution would be to make the LIRR free, drastically reducing labor costs.  Actually a better idea would be to install turnstyles and charge a low $2.50-$5.00 fare each way.  Not only would this bring money into the system but help out hard working families who are financial trouble in these difficult times.  Look at this way, many people are out of work, just one job interview living on Long Island costs people $20-$30 just to get to/from a job interview!  pretty tough if you're unemployed...

 

The economy is in troule the trouble and the private sector has had to make cuts...  The LIRR saya "we serve with pride."  But the MTA LIRR makes no cuts or restructures there system, just raise fares.  Making no cuts just and continuing to pay people a nice salary to punch tickets is disrepectful to the people they serve.

 

Responses to what's highlighted in bold:

 

Turnstiles with commuter rail don't work, ever, unless it's Japan and the trains come every three minutes. The thing is, commuter trains show up only a few times an hour at most stations, so immediately before and after, you have a rush of people overloading the turnstiles. This also makes fare-beating at commuter stations ridiculously easy, because the MTA is not going to post someone to watch the turnstiles at every LIRR station, and any security guards that tried to prevent it would have a really hard time noticing farebeaters among the fast rush of commuters. Not to mention, a lot of the stations are just concrete platforms with a couple of steps - there's no way to fit turnstiles onto those.

 

A free fare would end up bankrupting the MTA and NICE, and eventually, the city, because it would encourage moving to the suburbs and using the LIRR  and MNRR over subway/bus where possible, and long-term, that would lead to another 1970's fiscal crisis. It would also end up crippling MNRR and LIRR, because they're already at capacity. This is the deal-killer: the fares aren't there to milk poor people, but also to regulate demand for the trains. When something is free or doesn't cost much, people abuse it - for the Asian Games, Guangzhou in China abolished fares on its transit network and saw ridership double, causing safety concerns at stations due to massive overcrowding on an already crowded system.

 

At the very least, zone 3 fares should be pegged to the express bus fare - no more, but no less. Most of the LIRR stations are wheelchair accessible, and they're cheaper to run than some of the express buses, so railstitution could work.

[RtrainBlues]

Undercover police work very well throughout the DC and NY systems to discourage fare-beating.  Busy stations such as Roslyn, VA in the DC metro have at least 10 turnstiles to handle large rush-hour crowds. Some off-peak trains (especially on less busy lines such as Hempstead) are so empty that they often have only 3 or 4 people per car between Jamaica and Hempstead; they are nowhere near capacity.  Meanwhile the N6 is so crowded mid-day that they're running local and limited stop buses. And the N22 and N24 are always packed as alternatives to the LIRR.

 

Unfortunately, the high off-peak fares turn off a very large number of people.  It's sad people need to take 2+ hour trips from Brooklyn/Manhattan to Nassau via subway/NICE bus since there's tons of room on many off-peak LIRR trains.