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Wallyhorse

MTA Looking at bringing back (F) Culver Express (NY Post)

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Looks like the (MTA) is looking to bring back the Culver Express after all, as can be seen here:

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crowded_train_may_return_to_the_fTmAQElPuvkN95T4OVP9NK

 

My plan would be this, similar to what I wrote previously but with some changes:

Bergen Street lower level would be redone and be an express stop like it used to be.

The (C) would be diverted from the 8th Avenue line at West 4th. It would become the Culver Express and also replace the (F) between Church Avenue and Coney Island, except late nights. This would give Culver line riders and those at Coney Island direct access to the 8th Avenue line they don't usually have.

 

The (E) would be extended to Euclid Avenue at all times.

 

The (F) would remain the Culver Local, but terminate at Church Avenue, though in rush hours, a limited number of (F) trains would be extended to Kings Highway. Late nights, the (F) would run as it does now. This keeps Park Slope riders happy with no change in their current service.

 

A supplemental (K) train would run from Chambers-168th Street at all times (starting on the current (E) terminal at Chambers). These would be 2-5 TPH and would mainly be for those in Lower Manhattan who need a one-seat ride to local stations or are too lazy to walk up to the (A) platform at Chambers.

 

Yes, this would have the (C), (F) and (M) all stopping on the local track at Broadway-Lafayette, but that would be the only stop that would be the case and I believe it would be at max 30-32 TPH. If done efficiently, it can be done with no serious delays.

 

Where in my view this will be of the biggest benefit aside from giving Culver riders express service and an 8th Avenue option they don't currently have (PLUS also allowing those on 8th Avenue the option at Jay Street of switching to/from the (A)(E)  to/from the (C) and skipping lower Manhattan altogether) is the new Hudson Yards project that is already under construction and will have its first buildings open in a couple of years. As companies move their offices to the new buildings, the demand for 8th Avenue service likely will grow, and having an option from the Culver Line I think will be very important in the long run.

 

Of course, this would be contingent on having enough subway cars available for this service.

Edited by Wallyhorse
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Well it's a good thing this ISN'T your plan. What, nothing terminating at 2 Av?

You know what my plan would be? Add a new designation of <F>, have it run express from Jay St to Church Ave (it would be great if Bergen Lower could be open, but unrealistic) and then local the rest of the way to/from Coney Island, and have the (F)'s that terminate at Kings Highway/Ave X remain local (with supplemental Coney Island service as needed). When trains aren't terminating at Kings Highway, only local (F)'s. AND LEAVE ALL OF THE OTHER LINES AS THEY ARE.

Edited by Snowblock
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You're not looking ahead on this:

Over the next few years, there are going to be an assortment of brand new buildings going up over the Hudson Yards.  The adjustments to the Culver Line (making the (C) the Culver Express so Culver riders have those at all times while Park Slope local riders keep the (F) as it is) are specifically with the new project in mind.  You are likely going to see a considerable jump in demand for 8th Avenue service as the new buildings come on line over the next few years, and these changes reflect that likely jump in demand.

 

In addition, this gives riders coming from lower Manhattan two new options for midtown 8th Avenue service (except late nights): Taking the (4) or (5) to the (6) at Brooklyn Bridge and transferring to the (C) at Broadway-Lafayette OR (and this would also be true for riders coming from the Broadway-Brooklyn Line) taking the (J) to Essex-Delancey and transferring there to the (C).

 

Also not even mentioned in the original post is another factor: This gives Culver line riders direct access to Penn Station and the Port Authority Bus Terminal, something that I think would be desirable.

 

It's all about being flexible.

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Wallyhorse, just stop. The idea being looked at is possibly restoring (F) Culver express, not all of these ridiculous proposals you bring up.

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You're not looking ahead on this:

 

 

In addition, this gives riders coming from lower Manhattan two new options for midtown 8th Avenue service (except late nights): Taking the (4) or (5) to the (6) at Brooklyn Bridge and transferring to the (C) at Broadway-Lafayette OR (and this would also be true for riders coming from the Broadway-Brooklyn Line) taking the (J) to Essex-Delancey and transferring there to the (C).

 

I guess you've never heard of Fulton St, where you can transfer between the (4)(5)(C) and (J) all under one roof!

 

,,,,,as for the rest, that isn't instituting Culver express service, it's redrawing the entire map for no reason other than your constant trolling.

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I think the new < (F) > trains should terminate or originate at Kings Highway during rush hours so they can either become local (F) trains or deadhead into the Coney Island-Avenue X Yard.

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Aren't there some (F) that originate from Avenue X during the AM rush? Just curious

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Here let me bring things back in perspective:

 

The the last two paragraphs in the article quoted in the post below says it all, an (F) express would be useful as it would bring South Brooklyn riders to Jay Street in only a few stops.

 

HOWEVER there are obvious disadvantages to this as we all know already: No direct service to 4th Ave, Caroll Street or Bergen Street which are some of the busiest stations along the corridor.

 

Reactivating the (V) and bringing it to Brooklyn according to MTA sources can easily alleviate the problem in theory BUT now we have a shortage of cars and may not exactly be able to find the rolling stock to support a (V) service to Brooklyn. Plus additional operating costs. I'll be pleasantly suprised if the MTA can actually pull this off. Perhaps something for the future as they finally decide on what to do when the next gen of cars arrives to expand the current fleet. Maybe as the SAS opens in 2016 we might see this actually happen. That's my guess ......

 

http://gothamist.com/2013/03/05/mta_mulling_bringing_an_f_express_l.php

 

MTA Mulling An F Express Line In Brooklyn

 

2013_01_delanceysub.jpg

 

At a City Council budge hearing today, Aaron Stern, director of New York City Transit’s Office of Management and Budget, mentioned that the MTA is going to do as it has previously promised and will review bringing express service back to the F after the Culver Viaduct rehab finishes at the end of the year. First that rehab gave us extended G service into Brooklyn and now this? Not so fast!

 

The F has had express service in Brooklyn before, but not since the 1987, when a rush hour express from Kings Highway to Borough Hall was nixed due to track work. Gone, but not forgotten. The thing is, as lovely an idea as this sounds, it has some issues that may make it not the most feasible. First off, because of a limited number of trains in the system, Stern says, "We would be taking the same ridership level and redistributing it to both services." Second, there is the issue of what riders this would serve—many of the F stops in Brooklyn with express train access are not actually the heaviest used ones in the borough. As the MTA itself put it in a 2009 report on the F:

 

Approximately two-thirds of F riders in Brooklyn are on the northern segment of the Culver Line, between Church Avenue and Bergen Street, and two of the busiest stations on the line - Bergen Street and Carroll Street - are local stops. F express trains would also skip the transfer station to the M and R trains at 4 Av-9 St, which may inconvenience some passengers. Operating the F express and extending the V to Brooklyn as a local would require additional trains and cars; such a service increase would increase operating costs.

Edited by realizm
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The (C) via Culver Express would work. And the (E) to Euclid would work too. This is fun to read if you look outside of the foamer approach.

Edited by Quill Depot
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HAHAHAHA. And in the topic about the (G) people were complaining that the (F) express would not work these days and that (MTA) would never allow to bring it back and what do I read now? They are looking into bringing it back. LMAO!

 

@realizm: Correction: it would bypass Bergen St in the *current* state. But they could rehab Bergen St Lower and then it wouldn't skip Bergen.

 

 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Vistausss

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The (C) via Culver Express would work. And the (E) to Euclid would work too. This is fun to read if you look outside of the foamer approach.

Exactly!!

 

I'm NOT looking at this from a foamer approach.  I'm looking ahead a few years to when the new buildings in the Hudson Yards open and how that is going to impact the 8th Avenue line in particular. 

 

As I would do it, it increases service on the Culver line overall, gives Culver line riders (and those at Coney Island) a new direct 8th Avenue line and Upper West Side option they don't currently have (except late nights), provides new transfer points from the (6) and (J) to the 8th Avenue line (again, except late nights) at Broadway-Lafayette and Essex-Delancey respectively, gives riders looking for midtown on the 8th Avenue the option of switching from the (A) and/or (E) at Jay Street to the (C), which in the new format skips lower Manhattan.  Those are side benefits to this that are also very important in my view.

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HAHAHAHA. And in the topic about the (G) people were complaining that the (F) express would not work these days and that (MTA) would never allow to bring it back and what do I read now? They are looking into bringing it back. LMAO!

 

@realizm: Correction: it would bypass Bergen St in the *current* state. But they could rehab Bergen St Lower and then it wouldn't skip Bergen.

 

Gotcha.

 

But I was going by what Snowblock said. He's saying that  Bergen St Lower Level can't be rehabbed now because of certain factors, signaling equipment related.

 

Well it's a good thing this ISN'T your plan. What, nothing terminating at 2 Av?

 

You know what my plan would be? Add a new designation of <F>, have it run express from Jay St to Church Ave (it would be great if Bergen Lower could be open, but unrealistic) and then local the rest of the way to/from Coney Island, and have the (F)'s that terminate at Kings Highway/Ave X remain local (with supplemental Coney Island service as needed). When trains aren't terminating at Kings Highway, only local (F)'s. AND LEAVE ALL OF THE OTHER LINES AS THEY ARE.

Edited by realizm

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Looks like the (MTA) is looking to bring back the Culver Express after all, as can be seen here:

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crowded_train_may_return_to_the_fTmAQElPuvkN95T4OVP9NK

 

Oh yeah, I wanted to say that even as I dont exactly agree with your proposal (no offense), nethertheless, good find on the article posted and starting this thread for discussion. +1.

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@Walyhorse

Now what about people who work on 6th Ave?

That DOES NOT Change.  Their service would be the same as now.  What changes is there would be 8th Avenue service in addition to the 6th Avenue line for those in Park Slope plus the Coney Island terminal.  Culver el riders can make a simple same platform transfer to the 6th Avenue line at Broadway-Lafayette or to the (F) anywhere before there.

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When they get enough Cars for some of these "grand schemes" you have Wally i will let you know....

 

As of now im wondering how they are going to pull this off anyway...

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It's probably going to end up being a big service cut for south of Church Ave. That's known as one of the ligher-used portions of the system, (mostly low rise), and every now and then, in severe cut plans, you'll hear about ideas of cutting weeked service.

I remember both working the line, and especially using it to get to Stillwell, there's often a wait to get ito the terminal, even durig the middle of the day, and not that many trains are needed for that section of the line. Some are laid up at Kings Hwy, and some from Stillwell, but they still need a lot of service for the Manhattan and Queens portions.

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Just have 3 tph to/from Coney Island run express b/w Jay and Church signed up as <F> during rush hours. Don't need any more than that.

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Just have 3 tph to/from Coney Island run express b/w Jay and Church signed up as <F> during rush hours. Don't need any more than that.

 

Twenty minute headway? Sure that will work during rush hours...

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The (C) via Culver Express would work. And the (E) to Euclid would work too. This is fun to read if you look outside of the foamer approach.

Fulton IND doesn't need that much service from the E and you will foul up the E by making the line longer. Just leave the E and C alone. Culver really needs a split of Park Slope and south of Church av riders. So let the local serve Park Slope and maybe short turn some trains at Church and send the express thru Park Slope to CI. No need to drag any other lines into it.

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I think the new < (F) > trains should terminate or originate at Kings Highway during rush hours so they can either become local (F) trains or deadhead into the Coney Island-Avenue X Yard.

No, the point of adding express service is to balance passenger loads. Customers going to places like Neptune Ave are going to prefer the express train, and customers going to Prospect Park will have to take the local. Customers going to Ditmas will probably be fine with taking whichever train comes first (the express run between Jay and Church is long enough that a <F> should be able to overtake the (F) it is following, but not by a significant amount). So you want to have the express train run farther out than the local, which is why it makes more sense to have the local (F) terminate at Kings/Ave X and the <F> go all the way to Coney. Some of the local F's can also run all the way out to Coney since it isn't always every other train that turns at Kings.

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No, the point of adding express service is to balance passenger loads. Customers going to places like Neptune Ave are going to prefer the express train, and customers going to Prospect Park will have to take the local. Customers going to Ditmas will probably be fine with taking whichever train comes first (the express run between Jay and Church is long enough that a <F> should be able to overtake the (F) it is following, but not by a significant amount). So you want to have the express train run farther out than the local, which is why it makes more sense to have the local (F) terminate at Kings/Ave X and the <F> go all the way to Coney. Some of the local F's can also run all the way out to Coney since it isn't always every other train that turns at Kings.

 

This layout is similar to the B44/LTD layout at Avenue U where the local turns around there and the LTD goes further south.

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Here let me bring things back in perspective:

 

The the last two paragraphs in the article quoted in the post below says it all, an (F) express would be useful as it would bring South Brooklyn riders to Jay Street in only a few stops.

 

HOWEVER there are obvious disadvantages to this as we all know already: No direct service to 4th Ave, Caroll Street or Bergen Street which are some of the busiest stations along the corridor.

 

Reactivating the (V) and bringing it to Brooklyn according to MTA sources can easily alleviate the problem in theory BUT now we have a shortage of cars and may not exactly be able to find the rolling stock to support a (V) service to Brooklyn. Plus additional operating costs. I'll be pleasantly suprised if the MTA can actually pull this off. Perhaps something for the future as they finally decide on what to do when the next gen of cars arrives to expand the current fleet. Maybe as the SAS opens in 2016 we might see this actually happen. That's my guess ......

 

http://gothamist.com/2013/03/05/mta_mulling_bringing_an_f_express_l.php

That's it! That's all we need! There just needs to be an (F) local and an (F) express (which could be called (V) or < F >, it doesn't matter), both running to Manhattan via the Rutgers St Tunnel and 6th Ave. We don't need to complicate things by getting the (C) and (E) trains involved.
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