March Committee Meeting

[Shortline Bus]

I think everyone here has made their points (both big pluses and minuses) of this new "Q70" LGA Woodside/Jackson Heights route and shorting the "Q33?"

 

Just basic question. How many local riders from the Elmhurst/Jackson Heights area along the existing Q33 i.e LGA airport workers actually ride it to/from the central terminals? If the number is small then this is a very good idea. Only huge problem is that the BQE/GCP can be a parking lots 7 days a week at almost any moment.

[bobtehpanda]

I think everyone here has made their points (both big pluses and minuses) of this new "Q70" LGA Woodside/Jackson Heights route and shorting the "Q33?"

 

Just basic question. How many local riders from the Elmhurst/Jackson Heights area along the existing Q33 i.e LGA airport workers actually ride it to/from the central terminals? If the number is small then this is a very good idea. Only huge problem is that the BQE/GCP can be a parking lots 7 days a week at almost any moment.

 

I agree - unless this Q70 is allowed to use shoulder lanes (doubtful), it's likely going to get stuck in traffic a lot, because the westbound GCP->southbound BQE ramp is only one lane wide, and in the opposite direction it's two lanes that merge into one lane. (BTW, thanks for the downvote for the valid concern, QJT, but an explanation would be nice.)

 

if memory serves me correctly, the westbound->southbound ramp also has an overpass above it, but I'm not sure if it's a parkway-clearance overpass, or a highway-clearance overpass.

[checkmatechamp13]

I think everyone here has made their points (both big pluses and minuses) of this new "Q70" LGA Woodside/Jackson Heights route and shorting the "Q33?"

 

Just basic question. How many local riders from the Elmhurst/Jackson Heights area along the existing Q33 i.e LGA airport workers actually ride it to/from the central terminals? If the number is small then this is a very good idea. Only huge problem is that the BQE/GCP can be a parking lots 7 days a week at almost any moment.

 

They said it was only about 300 riders on the weekdays. There are a total of about 1,900 going to the airport, and 9,800 riders total. The riders going to LGA from 82nd/83rd can transfer to the Q72.

[qjtransitmaster]

I agree - unless this Q70 is allowed to use shoulder lanes (doubtful), it's likely going to get stuck in traffic a lot, because the westbound GCP->southbound BQE ramp is only one lane wide, and in the opposite direction it's two lanes that merge into one lane. (BTW, thanks for the downvote for the valid concern, QJT, but an explanation would be nice.)

 

if memory serves me correctly, the westbound->southbound ramp also has an overpass above it, but I'm not sure if it's a parkway-clearance overpass, or a highway-clearance overpass.

You have to have a wait and see approach to this. It is very much possible to get a HOV or HOT lane program for buses on the I-278 corridor. Therefore it is possible to nullify the traffic argument. The northern part of the BQE has much less traffic than south of the LIE. The worst of the BQE is between the gowanus by hamilton ave and williamsburg.

[Q43LTD]

I think everyone here has made their points (both big pluses and minuses) of this new "Q70" LGA Woodside/Jackson Heights route and shorting the "Q33?"

 

Just basic question. How many local riders from the Elmhurst/Jackson Heights area along the existing Q33 i.e LGA airport workers actually ride it to/from the central terminals? If the number is small then this is a very good idea. Only huge problem is that the BQE/GCP can be a parking lots 7 days a week at almost any moment.

That bold statement about the BQE/GCP makes me skeptical about this route. Now what to do about that damn Q48?

[bobtehpanda]

You have to have a wait and see approach to this. It is very much possible to get a HOV or HOT lane program for buses on the I-278 corridor. Therefore it is possible to nullify the traffic argument. The northern part of the BQE has much less traffic than south of the LIE. The worst of the BQE is between the gowanus by hamilton ave and williamsburg.

 

I don't think you understand the problem here - it's not that there's no dedicated lane, it's that the ramp to enter the BQE is only one lane wide. This is a one-lane entrance for all the commuters and airport riders, and it's already crowded due to high demand and the fact that people keep trying to cut each other off before it cuts off to one lane. After looking at it again through Google maps, it turns out this lane also doesn't have a shoulder until it enters the BQE. There is another exit lane that soon joins to form the second lane of the BQE, but a solid painted line prevents merging. Even when people do it, it is far too congested as it is to provide any useful link to Woodside. Not to mention, the BQE onramps and offramps are awkwardly placed in between Woodside and Roosevelt/74th St, so the bus is going to make some really weird turns. If you're not a local, don't talk about the BQE like it's traffic heaven. On most days, the GCP from the BQE to Flushing takes a good 20-30 minutes. On extremely bad days, it's almost 45 minutes.

 

Honestly, the fastest, widest route I can think of for an SBS LGA route would be Woodside - LGA via Roosevelt Av and Junction Blvd.

[qjtransitmaster]

I don't think you understand the problem here - it's not that there's no dedicated lane, it's that the ramp to enter the BQE is only one lane wide. This is a one-lane entrance for all the commuters and airport riders, and it's already crowded due to high demand and the fact that people keep trying to cut each other off before it cuts off to one lane. After looking at it again through Google maps, it turns out this lane also doesn't have a shoulder until it enters the BQE. There is another exit lane that soon joins to form the second lane of the BQE, but a solid painted line prevents merging. Even when people do it, it is far too congested as it is to provide any useful link to Woodside. Not to mention, the BQE onramps and offramps are awkwardly placed in between Woodside and Roosevelt/74th St, so the bus is going to make some really weird turns. If you're not a local, don't talk about the BQE like it's traffic heaven. On most days, the GCP from the BQE to Flushing takes a good 20-30 minutes. On extremely bad days, it's almost 45 minutes.

 

Honestly, the fastest, widest route I can think of for an SBS LGA route would be Woodside - LGA via Roosevelt Av and Junction Blvd.

one problem that one lane ramp is not always jammed.

 

That bold statement about the BQE/GCP makes me skeptical about this route. Now what to do about that damn Q48?

what is wrong with the Q48?

[bobtehpanda]

one problem that one lane ramp is not always jammed.

 

 

what is wrong with the Q48?

 

Why yes, the ramp is not always jammed, and a broken clock is wrong twice a day. However, the ramp is jammed enough to affect on time performance, and the GCP in that area is also jammed, even with the 8-lane width of the highway.

 

If you think a route like that can run reliably often enough for a rider to choose it over the M60, a cab, or other MTA services, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[qjtransitmaster]

Why yes, the ramp is not always jammed, and a broken clock is wrong twice a day. However, the ramp is jammed enough to affect on time performance, and the GCP in that area is also jammed, even with the 8-lane width of the highway.

 

If you think a route like that can run reliably often enough for a rider to choose it over the M60, a cab, or other MTA services, then I have a bridge to sell you.

we shall take it and see at least it would be faster than the Q33. M60 is for upper manhattan it has nothing to do with the Q70 and a cab is subjected to the SAME TRAFFIC. Next We will wait and see that's all.

 

Ohh FYI the Q70 can detour onto 23rd ave bypassing the trouble or use runway drive to astoria blvd skipping the GCP mess.

 

FYI the BQE may not be traffic heaven BUT compared to the van wyck south of GCP yeah it is pretty much heaven at least north of the LIE it is.

[bobtehpanda]

we shall take it and see at least it would be faster than the Q33. M60 is for upper manhattan it has nothing to do with the Q70 and a cab is subjected to the SAME TRAFFIC. Next We will wait and see that's all.

 

Ohh FYI the Q70 can detour onto 23rd ave bypassing the trouble or use runway drive to astoria blvd skipping the GCP mess.

 

FYI the BQE may not be traffic heaven BUT compared to the van wyck south of GCP yeah it is pretty much heaven at least north of the LIE it is.

 

If it detours onto local streets that basically proves my point - the GCP - BQE transition is jammed often enough to make a route too slow to function.

 

Considering the point of the Q70 is to whisk passengers from Woodside and Roosevelt to LGA, it does directly compete with the M60, because the M60 and LIRR+Q70 would be the only ways for people to access LGA by transit from Manhattan.

 

A cab has to compete with the same traffic, but a cab is also more comfortable, has trunk space for luggage, and the cost of a cab goes down if you have more than one person in the cab, unlike a transit fare, which does the reverse.

[B35 via Church]

If anybody can't open PDFs, somebody posted it up on Subchat. See here.

 

 

I don't feel like looking back at the PDF, but it said about 20% of the Q33 riders are bound for the airport (the vast majority coming from the subway). It said about 1,900 riders on the weekdays (out of a total of 9,800 riders) are bound for the airport, which is about 20%.

 

The purpose for going to Woodside is for the LIRR riders, not anything to do with taking riders off the Q53. I think you could get a decent amount of demand from that station, considering that it's served by basically all the LIRR branches that go to Penn. Even if it's only a small percentage of the riders, it's a large amount of riders, so a small percentage should be a decent amount. (I mean, if nothing else, you could argue connectivity, because otherwise, you either have to go to Woodside and take the Q53 to Jackson Heights, or go to Jamaica and take the to Jackson Heights, whereas this way, you pass through Jackson Heights, but at least you avoid a transfer). Plus, you have the express, which could bring in some riders somehow. (Plus, the Q18 stops there, bringing riders from the Astoria area, however small that number may be)

Well whatever their reasoning is, it still doesn't make sense to me to have these buses end at 61st......

I'm not seeing demand either; you don't get people taking MNRR to M60's for LGA, so there's no reason for me to believe that people will take the LIRR to the Q70 in any noticable amount for LGA.....

 

 

I think everyone here has made their points (both big pluses and minuses) of this new "Q70" LGA Woodside/Jackson Heights route and shorting the "Q33?"

 

Just basic question. How many local riders from the Elmhurst/Jackson Heights area along the existing Q33 i.e LGA airport workers actually ride it to/from the central terminals? If the number is small then this is a very good idea. Only huge problem is that the BQE/GCP can be a parking lots 7 days a week at almost any moment.

That bold statement about the BQE/GCP makes me skeptical about this route. Now what to do about that damn Q48?

I don't think the general idea behind this Q70 is bad enough for me to be skeptical about it... If this is how they're going about alleviating crowds on the Q33, so be it... As for Shortline's question, that number is very slim (# of airport workers that live around the Q33).... There's some type of shuttle van I notice that drops off TSA workers over along ditmars, just short of 94th from the west - Which I've always found rather odd, to have them walking along the 94th st overpass (that walk is not as short as it may look on any map either).....

 

I would not be surprised if this Q70 ends up transporting more riders to/from LGA on a daily basis than the Q48.... I've brought up in the past that the Q48 should be taken out of LGA and sent over there to end w/ the Q69 (instead of turning inside LGA, just have buses taking 23rd av..... Flushing-LGA usage is rather weak on that route, and has been for the longest

[Amtrak7]

I'm not very excited for the Q70 because of the potential for terrible service due to traffic jams.

 

But I do agree that with the MTA's belief there should be a one-seat ride from Woodside-61 to LGA.

[qjtransitmaster]

If it detours onto local streets that basically proves my point - the GCP - BQE transition is jammed often enough to make a route too slow to function.

 

Considering the point of the Q70 is to whisk passengers from Woodside and Roosevelt to LGA, it does directly compete with the M60, because the M60 and LIRR+Q70 would be the only ways for people to access LGA by transit from Manhattan.

 

A cab has to compete with the same traffic, but a cab is also more comfortable, has trunk space for luggage, and the cost of a cab goes down if you have more than one person in the cab, unlike a transit fare, which does the reverse.

So meandering through upper manhattan to the for midtown from M60 = competition to Q70 to for midtown which is more direct. DUDE I want to know what your on I have a bridge to sell to you. That is like saying QM24 is competition to QM25 they target different parts of manhattan midtown and lower respectively. That logic is utter BS and you know it M60 has nothing to do with Q70 and will be a non-factor for midtown travel now that the Q70 exists. Traffic proves the need for HOV lanes to protect buses from slow traffic. Express buses to manhattan have them so other buses on the highway well congested ones also deserve them as well.  Your stance is weak you are  .

 

Well whatever their reasoning is, it still doesn't make sense to me to have these buses end at 61st......

I'm not seeing demand either; you don't get people taking MNRR to M60's for LGA, so there's no reason for me to believe that people will take the LIRR to the Q70 in any noticable amount for LGA.....

 

 

I don't think the general idea behind this Q70 is bad enough for me to be skeptical about it... If this is how they're going about alleviating crowds on the Q33, so be it... As for Shortline's question, that number is very slim (# of airport workers that live around the Q33).... There's some type of shuttle van I notice that drops off TSA workers over along ditmars, just short of 94th from the west - Which I've always found rather odd, to have them walking along the 94th st overpass (that walk is not as short as it may look on any map either).....

 

I would not be surprised if this Q70 ends up transporting more riders to/from LGA on a daily basis than the Q48.... I've brought up in the past that the Q48 should be taken out of LGA and sent over there to end w/ the Q69 (instead of turning inside LGA, just have buses taking 23rd av..... Flushing-LGA usage is rather weak on that route, and has been for the longest

what makes flushing to LGA use on Q48 so weak is it because Q48 is slow? To be honest it should end at williamsburg bridge plaza via meeker ave only stopping at lorimer station and williamsburg or one stop at the begining of meeker for B48 connection. If downtown traffic is that bad then another bus for that but that for another day.

[AndrewJC]

They're going to have a hearing for a new Q70 route from Woodside to LGA via Jackson Heights. (Pages 4-11 of the second link).

 

The Q70 is exciting - it should siphon some Manhattan ridership off the M60. I'm less concerned than others about BQE traffic - the M60 has been phenomenally successful despite the traffic-prone Triboro Bridge, and on bad days the Q70 can divert to local streets, unlike the M60.

 

I totally disagree with the Q23 decision, and Im not being biased.

 

The Q23 at every 8 minutes has No space on the bus. At every ten minutes, it will make things worse. If this is an attempt for riders to start using the express buses (for some reason, all express bus routes along the Q23 route went down in the past few years or haven't progressed as much as others) or something, because making the 23 less frequent during the rush is a really stupid idea.

 

The headway adjustments in these tables are based on loading. They're not a deliberate attempt for anything; they're essentially automatic, based on the numbers. (It would be pretty stupid to deliberately push people onto money-burning express buses!)

[qjtransitmaster]

The Q70 is exciting - it should siphon some Manhattan ridership off the M60. I'm less concerned than others about BQE traffic - the M60 has been phenomenally successful despite the traffic-prone Triboro Bridge, and on bad days the Q70 can divert to local streets, unlike the M60.

 

 

The headway adjustments in these tables are based on loading. They're not a deliberate attempt for anything; they're essentially automatic, based on the numbers. (It would be pretty stupid to deliberately push people onto money-burning express buses!)

BINGO!!!!!!!!  

[bobtehpanda]

Well whatever their reasoning is, it still doesn't make sense to me to have these buses end at 61st......

I'm not seeing demand either; you don't get people taking MNRR to M60's for LGA, so there's no reason for me to believe that people will take the LIRR to the Q70 in any noticable amount for LGA.....

 

 

I don't think the general idea behind this Q70 is bad enough for me to be skeptical about it... If this is how they're going about alleviating crowds on the Q33, so be it... As for Shortline's question, that number is very slim (# of airport workers that live around the Q33).... There's some type of shuttle van I notice that drops off TSA workers over along ditmars, just short of 94th from the west - Which I've always found rather odd, to have them walking along the 94th st overpass (that walk is not as short as it may look on any map either).....

 

I would not be surprised if this Q70 ends up transporting more riders to/from LGA on a daily basis than the Q48.... I've brought up in the past that the Q48 should be taken out of LGA and sent over there to end w/ the Q69 (instead of turning inside LGA, just have buses taking 23rd av..... Flushing-LGA usage is rather weak on that route, and has been for the longest

 

Flushing - LGA is good in principle, and Jamaica-Flushing-LGA would be a godsend, but in reality the service is useless for most people in Queens, for the following two reasons.

 

1. It's short. Because of MTA's one-transfer policy, the effective range of people who will be able to take the bus is limited to the areas served by buses passing through Flushing. Very few people are going to make a one-bus transfer with luggage, and almost no one is going to make a two bus trip. Imagine someone lifting luggage onto an RTS and you get why this isn't ideal.

 

2. It's slow. Flushing -> LGA can be done in 5-10 minutes by car, and 20 minutes in a worst case scenario. A local bus is not going to beat these speeds most of the time. The rest of Queens can easily access the airport by highway, or by livery cab.

 

3. Demand for such a route is low and sparse. People taking transit to the airport in the city are always going to be traveling alone or in pairs - the price of a cab goes down, relatively speaking, as the amount of people taking the same trip goes up. (Example: A livery cab to LaGuardia from where I live, in far Eastern Queens, is about ~$20-25. This is a lot of money, but if I have three other family members going with me, it goes down to about $5-$6 a person. $6 for a cab ride is great, when you compare it to the cost of parking a car at the airport for two or three weeks.)

 

There are three groups of single-person travelers to an airport - business travelers, employees, and tourists traveling alone. Business travelers will almost always take a cab or a train. A bus with cold, hard plastic seats is not going to fly, especially when some businesses cover traveling expenses. Employees in Queens are scattered throughout Queens, the Bronx, and uptown Manhattan, and can't effectively be served with a single transit line, and on top of that probably get free parking (they do work there, after all). Tourists traveling alone or in small-ish groups make up the largest segment, but almost all of them are heading to Manhattan. Hotels are being built in Flushing due to its convenience, but it's nowhere near as big a market as Manhattan. And no matter how much you foam at the mouth, there is no way in hell that you can convince people to go backwards to Flushing to board a crowded train, especially when the M60 takes you to all of the Manhattan trunk lines.

 

TL;DR the Q48 is too short, stubby, and inconvenient for anyone to want to take it, and even if there was demand for Flushing-LGA, it's five minutes away by car.

[Cait Sith]

I don't understand why they'd have this "Q70" ending over there w/ the Q53.... If the logic is to try to take riders off the 53, that's not gonna work b/c hardly anyone takes the 53 out of 61st to get to 74th (in other words, those 53's are gonna be crowded leaving woodside regardless)..... If the logic is to try to get ppl. coming off the LIRR, I don't see that working out for the better either - as those that would typically take the LIRR (somewhere) would be more prone to taking cabs (in this case, to an airport), over taking the RR to a bus..... Just end this "Q70" @ moore terminal in the same bay as the Q33 & be done with it....

 

The Q33 ending on ditmars would still get good ridership; that I wouldn't worry about... However, those riders can say bye-bye to the current level of service the 33 currently gets (to have these 70's running).....

 

All they're doing w/ this 70 is separating the airport riders that would normally take the 33, from taking the 33.....

In other words, the 70 will take the airport riders to/from the subway, etc. & the 33 will handle all the residential riders it normally gets...

(instead of today's 33 - which gets crushloaded with [all the airport riders it gets] + [all the residential riders it gets])

 

All in all, I don't think the plan is the best idea in the world, but I do understand it.... I didn't read the whole pdf, but I wonder how often they'd have 70's running (that I'm more interested in, over the cutting back of the 33 to be honest.... It kinda-sorta would give a gauge as to how many ppl. use the 33 for the airport, as opposed to those using it to get to points short of it)....

 

Hell... besides, ppl. can then shut up about combining Q32's & Q33's !

 

Amen!!

 

The one thing I see with this is that the route would make connections with other routes that crosses over the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway. Plus when one has to take the Q33 to the airport with all those local stops, it becomes a really sluggish ride. I guess that was their mentality with the Q70 LTD.

[bobtehpanda]

So meandering through upper manhattan to the for midtown from M60 = competition to Q70 to for midtown which is more direct. DUDE I want to know what your on I have a bridge to sell to you. That is like saying QM24 is competition to QM25 they target different parts of manhattan midtown and lower respectively. That logic is utter BS and you know it M60 has nothing to do with Q70 and will be a non-factor for midtown travel now that the Q70 exists. Traffic proves the need for HOV lanes to protect buses from slow traffic. Express buses to manhattan have them so other buses on the highway well congested ones also deserve them as well.  Your stance is weak you are  .

 

How civilized of you.

 

You want to shoehorn a bus lane into a route that consists of a one-lane exit and a six-lane highway with no shoulder? It doesn't matter if the bus "deserves" it or not, there is no room.

 

M60 and Q70 are both routes requiring transfers to the airport. Q70 will be serving not only Roosevelt, but Woodside. It is geared primarily toward those who are inclined to take the LIRR and then board a bus. Most tourists, if they attempt to do a transfer at Roosevelt, will end up being horribly confused - to out-of-towners, the hustle and bustle of Jackson Heights is going to be extremely confusing, especially because pedestrian wayfinding in the outer boroughs isn't exactly easy. In addition, the , , and are always standing-room only, and the platforms at Roosevelt are relatively narrow, so it will be hard for airport travelers to utilize. (Even at Sutphin, a much wider, less confusing station, with less riders on the train than at Roosevelt, I have seen many a tourist struggle, or even fail to get off the train in time due to crowding on trains.)

 

M60, in contrast, will be a lot easier - board any express or local train to 125th, go up the stairs and wait at the stop till a M60 shows up. M60 is also probably going to be more frequent than the Q70, if the MTA is going to continue its trend of creating routes with 30-minute frequencies. Above all, airport travelers care that the bus shows up when they need it. This is why the majority of local airport passengers call livery cabs - no waiting.

 

The Q70 is a decent idea for a route, but I fear it may do worse than expected. Definitely do not expect it to steal everything from the M60.

 

If you're going to call my argument crap, the least you could do is proofread your posts.

[B35 via Church]

what makes flushing to LGA use on Q48 so weak is it because Q48 is slow?

* lazier answer - the demand to LGA itself from flushing via bus (and those coming from points north/east) is weak.....

that, and anyone coming from points west of flushing FWIW would take another bus (Q72, Q33, etc) to get there

 

* better/detailed answer - read Bobtehpanda's post [post #41].....

 

Flushing - LGA is good in principle

Yep, made that same point a while back about the Q48....

[petabread]

I can see the mta starting the new service at every 10 mins. You would be surprised at how many people get out at Jackson heights every 5-10 mins or so going to the airport. I use to rely on the q33 going to and from the airport and it was shocking how many people with luggage were waiting for the bus.

[checkmatechamp13]

I can see the mta starting the new service at every 10 mins. You would be surprised at how many people get out at Jackson heights every 5-10 mins or so going to the airport. I use to rely on the q33 going to and from the airport and it was shocking how many people with luggage were waiting for the bus.

 

The problem isn't a question of demand, but a question of the MTA policies. The B84, Bx46, and M12 (and whatever that Greenpoint route is going to be called. I forget what it was) are going to start on 30 minute headways, even during rush hour. The M12 has to deal with Manhattan traffic, and yet they still plan on running it on 30 minute headways, so it'll probably be the same deal here.

[checkmatechamp13]

TL;DR the Q48 is too short, stubby, and inconvenient for anyone to want to take it, and even if there was demand for Flushing-LGA, it's five minutes away by car.

 

Well, remember that there are a ton of routes passing through Flushing, so you're not terribly limited. Aside from that, the Q33 & Q72 are both short and only offer transfers to a certain number of routes, so shortness isn't an issue.

 

But basically, like you said, it's a question of demand. There are other routes that bring you closer to Manhattan, rather than backtracking, whereas with the Q48, you can't get the Manhattan riders, and you're going towards an area that's more conducive to driving.

 

Plus, airport workers make up a good chunk of ridership on any line that serves the airport, and it's more likely that they live towards Manhattan rather than Eastern Queens.

 

Above all, airport travelers care that the bus shows up when they need it. This is why the majority of local airport passengers call livery cabs - no waiting.

 

Well, to be fair (as I said above), a lot of people who use any airport route are workers, not necessarily travelers.

[qjtransitmaster]

How civilized of you.

 

You want to shoehorn a bus lane into a route that consists of a one-lane exit and a six-lane highway with no shoulder? It doesn't matter if the bus "deserves" it or not, there is no room.

 

M60 and Q70 are both routes requiring transfers to the airport. Q70 will be serving not only Roosevelt, but Woodside. It is geared primarily toward those who are inclined to take the LIRR and then board a bus. Most tourists, if they attempt to do a transfer at Roosevelt, will end up being horribly confused - to out-of-towners, the hustle and bustle of Jackson Heights is going to be extremely confusing, especially because pedestrian wayfinding in the outer boroughs isn't exactly easy. In addition, the , , and are always standing-room only, and the platforms at Roosevelt are relatively narrow, so it will be hard for airport travelers to utilize. (Even at Sutphin, a much wider, less confusing station, with less riders on the train than at Roosevelt, I have seen many a tourist struggle, or even fail to get off the train in time due to crowding on trains.)

 

M60, in contrast, will be a lot easier - board any express or local train to 125th, go up the stairs and wait at the stop till a M60 shows up. M60 is also probably going to be more frequent than the Q70, if the MTA is going to continue its trend of creating routes with 30-minute frequencies. Above all, airport travelers care that the bus shows up when they need it. This is why the majority of local airport passengers call livery cabs - no waiting.

 

The Q70 is a decent idea for a route, but I fear it may do worse than expected. Definitely do not expect it to steal everything from the M60.

 

If you're going to call my argument crap, the least you could do is proofread your posts.

My bus lane suggestion only is south of woodside upto meeker or williamsburg. That northern part of the BQE is not jammed frequent enough to warrant a bus lane when the bus can take a shortcut through runway dr and astoria blvd to enter the BQE.  Only a fool would consider backtracking all the way to 125th from midtown for the M60 when they can just use the to the Q70 instead M60 and Q70 target different areas plain and simple. Q70 also is useful for people in SE queens via LIRR connection and in jamacia now or kew gardens. I will admit that it's a bit far and can be annying but it is better than the Q33 slow route airport bound people to LGA have put up with slow service and the Q33 for too long. It's about damn time they got a faster option. The document did say Q70 would have service levels similar to the Q33.

[bobtehpanda]

My bus lane suggestion only is south of woodside upto meeker or williamsburg. That northern part of the BQE is not jammed frequent enough to warrant a bus lane when the bus can take a shortcut through runway dr and astoria blvd to enter the BQE. 

 

Why are you talking south of Woodside? That's in another topic (and please don't bring fantasy routes over here).

[qjtransitmaster]

Flushing - LGA is good in principle, and Jamaica-Flushing-LGA would be a godsend, but in reality the service is useless for most people in Queens, for the following two reasons.

 

1. It's short. Because of MTA's one-transfer policy, the effective range of people who will be able to take the bus is limited to the areas served by buses passing through Flushing. Very few people are going to make a one-bus transfer with luggage, and almost no one is going to make a two bus trip. Imagine someone lifting luggage onto an RTS and you get why this isn't ideal.

 

2. It's slow. Flushing -> LGA can be done in 5-10 minutes by car, and 20 minutes in a worst case scenario. A local bus is not going to beat these speeds most of the time. The rest of Queens can easily access the airport by highway, or by livery cab.

 

3. Demand for such a route is low and sparse. People taking transit to the airport in the city are always going to be traveling alone or in pairs - the price of a cab goes down, relatively speaking, as the amount of people taking the same trip goes up. (Example: A livery cab to LaGuardia from where I live, in far Eastern Queens, is about ~$20-25. This is a lot of money, but if I have three other family members going with me, it goes down to about $5-$6 a person. $6 for a cab ride is great, when you compare it to the cost of parking a car at the airport for two or three weeks.)

 

There are three groups of single-person travelers to an airport - business travelers, employees, and tourists traveling alone. Business travelers will almost always take a cab or a train. A bus with cold, hard plastic seats is not going to fly, especially when some businesses cover traveling expenses. Employees in Queens are scattered throughout Queens, the Bronx, and uptown Manhattan, and can't effectively be served with a single transit line, and on top of that probably get free parking (they do work there, after all). Tourists traveling alone or in small-ish groups make up the largest segment, but almost all of them are heading to Manhattan. Hotels are being built in Flushing due to its convenience, but it's nowhere near as big a market as Manhattan. And no matter how much you foam at the mouth, there is no way in hell that you can convince people to go backwards to Flushing to board a crowded train, especially when the M60 takes you to all of the Manhattan trunk lines.

 

TL;DR the Q48 is too short, stubby, and inconvenient for anyone to want to take it, and even if there was demand for Flushing-LGA, it's five minutes away by car.

I guess I am not the only guy here who came to that conclusion I guess we can agree on many things.

 

Why are you talking south of Woodside? That's in another topic (and please don't bring fantasy routes over here).

I wasn't talking fantasy I was talking ease commutes of outer-borough transit times and making trip times comparable to driving and to adjust to the growing trend of non-manhattan bound commuters that is a fact not fantasy.