Controversial NYPD 'stop and frisk' policy goes on trial in NY

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On the Italian crime syndicates I've seen something different. There are youth gangs that branch out of the Italian Marfia. (But you would be in better authority to speak on this not me so correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps this is a Brooklyn thing) Ditto on the Chinese Mob. Many Asian youth gangs exist contrary to popular model minority stereotypes and are very dangerous. 

 

I have seen kids in gangs, as some were my neighbors, who are predominately Italian, who sell drugs in pretty much the same way as Afro-Americans or Latino-Americans in other neighborhoods. Also dressing exactly the same way. It happened to be this way when I was living in Brooklyn Chinatown in close proximity to Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst in Brooklyn. Even talking the same way as many who are incarcerated or leads criminalistic lifestyles in so called ethnic neighborhoods. Profane speech, use of the "N' word and the dress which reaks of delinquency and a failure type attitude. Again, this sort of criminal behavior is not exclusive to one group.

 

The behavior, style of dress which has a prison origin is not exclusive to one racial group. Now as for police officers, I would think only some of the veterans may perceive this truth and are careful in how they approach situations.

 

On the flip side there are Afro-Americans and Latino-Americans who dress professionally, hold careers with professional degrees and supports families, who are law abiding citizens, much in the same way as law abiding Italian or Irish American civilians who are residents in in NYC. Again we cannot base everything on stereotypes, and that is one of the major problems where it comes to the 'stop and frisk' issue. 

 

I can agree on the urban dress issue, to an extent. The bloods for example dressing in red, or the crips flashing their colors, or the Latin Kings flashing yellow and black. They have stopped flashing their gang colors as of late because that makes them too high profile. However I will have to be in accord with Turbo19's comment. Where does it stop as to what styles of dress a person decides to go by according to the occasion?

 

As he said: 

 

 

VG8, let's take the hipster sub-culture for example. Many of these ones are absolutely ridiculously wild, provoking people on the trains, albeit in a micro-aggressive way but nevertheless constitutes disturbing of the peace, intoxicated and out of control, loud and obnoxious and love to act unruly and even violent, particularly @ Union Square, Hell's Kitchen, or Greenwich  Village at the bars. I don't necessarily see PO's performing 'stop and frisks' on such individuals or judge them according to hipster styles of dress, such outlandish forms of dress which in my opinion is not professional at all either and is an obvious expression a different type of urban hooliganism reflected in the hipster subculture. 

 

====================================================================================

 

On a slightly different note here's a youtube video I would like for you to analyze. Tell if if something is clearly not wrong here in this scenario? 

 

This occurrence involves a minority youth, only 19, who was bodyslammed by a cop for no apparent reason, in a neighborhood that is not exactly predominantly black. I believe he did commit a crime (graffiti) however what happened is that during the frisk the cop was feeling the crouch, then the kid flinched and grabbed the frame of the wall sign. Then the police officer bodyslammed him on the concrete. That was excessive force. The teen was reluctantly charged with resisting arrest along with the original crime that I guess the youth did commit. Excuse me? This happened in South Brooklyn @ 45th Street and 4th Ave, not ENY or Bushwick FYI:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzPKFRARdqM

 

I can see why some are distrustful of police officers, not speaking for myself of course because I wouldn't go out of my way to commit criminal offenses or condone it like practically everyone else in this intelligent discussion on this hot -button topic. I wouldn't be in fear of police officers then. (Maybe you have a point)

 

As the saying goes a few rotten apples ruins the whole bunch. Unfortunate but true. 

A few things here... Sunset Park is not in Southern Brooklyn... It's also a poor area for the most part and some spots can be crime prone.  Now in that video, all we see is the cop running after the guy.  We don't know what happened for him to stop him, but clearly he made a move when he was searching him which is why he reacted the way that he did.  Not exactly innocent... When a cop stops you, and says don't move, you follow orders, period.  Cops cannot take any stop as just a routine thing because their lives are on the line too.

 

As for the gangs, that's how they get into the mafia, via gangs... lol

 

Finally, with regards to the style of dress, youths of various ethnicities are stopped.  I've seen whites pulled over on Staten Island for suspicious behavior.  What it comes down to is who commits crimes the most and blacks and Latinos commit crimes at a much higher rate then other ethnicities so naturally they will be stopped and frisked more.  Since this is supposedly so unjust against minorities, tell me how many Asians are stopped and frisked and how many Asians are in jail in terms of percentages here the States? I know for a fact that their numbers are low because they don't commit tuns of crimes and therefore they are stopped and frisked a lot either.

[realizm]

A few things here... Sunset Park is not in Southern Brooklyn... It's also a poor area for the most part and some spots can be crime prone.  Now in that video, all we see is the cop running after the guy.  We don't know what happened for him to stop him, but clearly he made a move when he was searching him which is why he reacted the way that he did.  Not exactly innocent... When a cop stops you, and says don't move, you follow orders, period.  Cops cannot take any stop as just a routine thing because their lives are on the line too.

 

As for the gangs, that's how they get into the mafia, via gangs... lol

 

Finally, with regards to the style of dress, youths of various ethnicities are stopped.  I've seen whites pulled over on Staten Island for suspicious behavior.  What it comes down to is who commits crimes the most and blacks and Latinos commit crimes at a much higher rate then other ethnicities so naturally they will be stopped and frisked more.  Since this is supposedly so unjust against minorities, tell me how many Asians are stopped and frisked and how many Asians are in jail in terms of percentages here the States? I know for a fact that their numbers are low because they don't commit tuns of crimes and therefore they are stopped and frisked a lot either.

 

I'll have to look up the postal zones to confirm that on whether Sunset Park is a part of South Brooklyn or not, but I wont bother, I'll take your word for it, not a problem.

 

Otherwise as far as Asian-Americans are concerned we are getting into a whole other ballgame now, with the social fabric and the model minority myth.  Fun fact: Almost as much people in China alone are incarcerated in its prison systems as in the US. But there is a difference here in the US as regards to why your reference to that statistics on incarceration rates of Asian-Americans are there and recorded, imagining that you are referring to US Census statistics. Most people do not realize that now a large majority of us as a minority group have collectively been molded by racial stereotypes that goes back to the Chinese Exclusion act in the 19th century. But that's another story. 

 

Keep in mind that myself as a mixed-Asian American cannot speak for any other Asian-Americans on this site as we all have different experiences due to our variety in heritage, culture, national origin and language as a parallel to those in the Latino-American community who also have different cultural or national origin and different dialects and even native non-Spanish languages. 

 

 

 

As for the gangs, that's how they get into the mafia, via gangs... lol

 

I loled myself on your response on that particular, so obvious. You are right on that one.

[checkmatechamp13]

A few things here... Sunset Park is not in Southern Brooklyn... It's also a poor area for the most part and some spots can be crime prone.  Now in that video, all we see is the cop running after the guy.  We don't know what happened for him to stop him, but clearly he made a move when he was searching him which is why he reacted the way that he did.  Not exactly innocent... When a cop stops you, and says don't move, you follow orders, period.  Cops cannot take any stop as just a routine thing because their lives are on the line too.

 

Just because it's a minority neighborhood doesn't somehow exclude it from being in southern Brooklyn. You go directly across on the B9 and B11, and you end up in Midwood, which you're always talking about how it's such a good neighborhood in southern Brooklyn. It's served by the BMT Southern Division. What else would it be?

 

Yeah, some parts can be crime-prone, but not to the extent of ENY or Bushwick, which was his point. And it's not really poor, but rather working-class.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Otherwise as far as Asian-Americans are concerned we are getting into a whole other ballgame now, with the social fabric and the model minority myth.  Fun fact: Almost as much people in China alone are incarcerated in its prison systems as in the US. But there is a difference here in the US as regards to why your reference to that statistics on incarceration rates of Asian-Americans are there and recorded, imagining that you are referring to US Census statistics. Most people do not realize that now a large majority of us as a minority group have collectively been molded by racial stereotypes that goes back to the Chinese Exclusion act in the 19th century. But that's another story. 

 

Keep in mind that myself as a mixed-Asian American cannot speak for any other Asian-Americans on this site as we all have different experiences due to our variety in heritage, culture, national origin and language as a parallel to those in the Latino-American community who also have different cultural or national origin and different dialects and even native non-Spanish languages. 

I'm actually not quite understanding your point... My point is very simple... That the groups with high levels of incarceration are the ones being stopped and frisked the most, not because they are minorities.  The example I gave was the low levels of incarceration for Asians here in the US and how Asians are minorities also and they don't seem to have high levels of stop and frisk incidents, so IMO, that debunks the argument that blacks and Latinos are being stopped and frisked solely because they are minorities.

[realizm]

I'm actually not quite understanding your point... My point is very simple... That the groups with high levels of incarceration are the ones being stopped and frisked the most, not because they are minorities.  The example I gave was the low levels of incarceration for Asians here in the US and how Asians are minorities also and they don't seem to have high levels of stop and frisk incidents, so IMO, that debunks the argument that blacks and Latinos are being stopped and frisked solely because they are minorities.

 

Your point is simple and straight to the point. Understood. The Asian American experience is not. It is a very complex experience for many, many reasons.

[CenSin]

This is true but I'm not buying it that these folks are just harassed just because.  Now you do have crooked cops and you have cops that are pricks, but the fact of the matter is that the Stop & Frisk happens in areas of color the most because those areas have high crime rates.  If they don't want the Stop & Frisk happening there, they should be out protesting against the violence and crime in their neighborhoods, not sitting there condemning the cops for trying to protect the city and the residents there.  On the one hand you have the people that complain about the rampant crime in the area and say that the cops need to do more.  Then you have the folks on the other hand calling the cops crooks... Can't have it both ways... 

You've made a good point.

 

Law enforcement sees it this way (ideally):

Cops are doing x in location y because criminals are there.

 

but, the average Joe see it this way:

Cops are doing x in location y because black/Latino people are there.

 

Just because things appear to have a cause and effect relationship, doesn't mean they are directly related. Suppose there existed a black/Latino neighborhood with low crime rate. If cops were doing the same things in that area, then accusations of racism stands because now there is a clear relationship between race and police activity but a slightly spotty relationship between crime and police activity. Cops should be where they are needed, not where they will please the most whiners.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your point is simple and straight to the point. Understood. The Asian American experience is not. It is a very complex experience for many, many reasons.

I'm not saying it is... All I'm saying is that Asians in this country have don't have high numbers when it comes to incarceration, which debunks the theory that people of color are being stopped and frisked just because.  I think it has more to do with the groups that commit crimes more being stopped and frisked more, which makes perfect sense.

[realizm]

I'm not saying it is... All I'm saying is that Asians in this country have don't have high numbers when it comes to incarceration, which debunks the theory that people of color are being stopped and frisked just because.  I think it has more to do with the groups that commit crimes more being stopped and frisked more, which makes perfect sense.

 

 

The hard reality in this would be the fact that in general where we have inner-city neighborhoods with high levels of poverty, we will end up with high levels of crime. Hence the stop and frisk activity as being more frequent in such areas. As to the economic and racial dynamics behind this it is a very controversial issue to tackle without tensions rising and questions that remains unanswered. That's indeed a tough pill to swallow and from all the comments I have heard that is my conclusion. Of course we have problems with race concerning the stop and frisk issue, but as to the complex reasons as to why this cannot be immediately solved is due to unknown factors in the social fabric of this city and this nation overall which sociologists even cannot completely understand.

 

Now: As for the reasons that Asians have lower incarceration rates: Apparently there are not enough supposed sociologic studies done on Asian Americans to explain why so I cannot exactly help you on that by hardcore scientific studies but only tell you by experience and the writings made by Asian American activists and organizations. But what I will tell you is that there is something called the model minority myth which blinds people from the realities of Asian immigrant and Asian American life.

 

Look at this link: http://capac-chu.house.gov/sites/congressionalasianpacificamericancaucus.house.gov/files/images/CAPAC%20-%20Model%20Minority%20Infographic.jpg

 

And this one: http://www.theusdvista.com/combating-the-model-minority-myth-1.2965398#.UUj0GBc4v2s

 

Lastly: http://tsl.pomona.edu/articles/2012/12/7/opinions/3454-asian-women-stereotypes-endure-on-campus

 

The model minority myth entails these racist stereotypes: All Asians as being successful and rich, all Asians marry white, all Asians gamble, all Asian females are hyper-sexualized, all Asian males are emasculated, all Asians are employed or are in school with high grades, all Asians are law abiding citizens. Whether it is true or not is intensely debatable, I will not even try to confirm or deny that and look like I'm a self hating Asian or a reverse racist militant Asian in the process. (I'm only human)  I would say however that the stereotypes are harming those who behind the scenes are really suffering within the Asian-American community. Particularly the Asian immigrant community. The invisible people as some Asian American activists would call our brothers from oversees barely surviving here.

 

The model minority myth entails that all Asians do not have problems when we do have a f**kload of problems. Can't put it to you any better without going into these particulars which honestly is even emotionally hard for me to even put in a post as an Asian American myself.

 

I hope this comment somewhat explains the factors involved in your observation as I think it's time I highlight this as you brought up this important question.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The hard reality in this would be the fact that in general where we have inner-city neighborhoods with high levels of poverty, we will end up with high levels of crime. Hence the stop and frisk activity as being more frequent in such areas. As to the economic and racial dynamics behind this it is a very controversial issue to tackle without tensions rising and questions that remains unanswered. That's indeed a tough pill to swallow and from all the comments I have heard that is my conclusion. Of course we have problems with race concerning the stop and frisk issue, but as to the complex reasons as to why this cannot be immediately solved is due to unknown factors in the social fabric of this city and this nation overall which sociologists even cannot completely understand.

 

Now: As for the reasons that Asians have lower incarceration rates: Apparently there are not enough supposed sociologic studies done on Asian Americans to explain why so I cannot exactly help you on that by hardcore scientific studies but only tell you by experience and the writings made by Asian American activists and organizations. But what I will tell you is that there is something called the model minority myth which blinds people from the realities of Asian immigrant and Asian American life.

 

Look at this link: http://capac-chu.house.gov/sites/congressionalasianpacificamericancaucus.house.gov/files/images/CAPAC%20-%20Model%20Minority%20Infographic.jpg

 

And this one: http://www.theusdvista.com/combating-the-model-minority-myth-1.2965398#.UUj0GBc4v2s

 

Lastly: http://tsl.pomona.edu/articles/2012/12/7/opinions/3454-asian-women-stereotypes-endure-on-campus

 

The model minority myth entails these racist stereotypes: All Asians as being successful and rich, all Asians marry white, all Asians gamble, all Asian females are hyper-sexualized, all Asian males are emasculated, all Asians are employed or are in school with high grades, all Asians are law abiding citizens. Whether it is true or not is intensely debatable, I will not even try to confirm or deny that and look like I'm a self hating Asian or a reverse racist militant Asian in the process. (I'm only human)  I would say however that the stereotypes are harming those who behind the scenes are really suffering within the Asian-American community. Particularly the Asian immigrant community. The invisible people as some Asian American activists would call our brothers from oversees barely surviving here.

 

The model minority myth entails that all Asians do not have problems when we do have a f**kload of problems. Can't put it to you any better without going into these particulars which honestly is even emotionally hard for me to even put in a post as an Asian American myself.

 

I hope this comment somewhat explains the factors involved in your observation as I think it's time I highlight this as you brought up this important question.

LOL... Well don't think that I somehow meant that all Asians are law abiding citizens because that was far from the case.  You have Asian gangs and Asian mafias so obviously they do commit crimes and not just gang related ones either, but on the same token, their incarceration rates are low when compared to other minority groups like blacks and Latinos.

[Turbo19]

The world is as black or white as you want to make it.  Some people just let a blind hate of the NYPD get in the way of rational judgment.  Who could blame them...if I were a degenerate i'd hate them too.

Name a situation where you'd be able to truly rationalize with the police without being assulted, then we'll talk.

 

 

 

That's what I'm focusing on. Of course if any person is displaying suspicious activity its clear that person should be stopped, asked for ID for a criminal background check and frisked. My only concern is the racial profiling that is still clearly apparent in the operations of the NYPD at the hands of crooked cops. As for protesting against the stop and frisk, that would be good suggestion, for community leaders to protest against the violence ongoing in this great city, however keep in mind many are afraid to do so because of retaliation at the hands of gangs such as the Bloods, Crips, MS-13, etc. These are notoriously violent gangs and for civilians to protest will bring bloody repercussions.

 

Look at what's happening in Mexico and in certain areas in California. Many people used to voice out against the violence of the cartels. Now they are 6 feet under. THOUSANDS of these civilians in Mexico and even the United States in California

 

This is why now, caught up in a subjective response to the comments reflected, I will say that I think the stop and frisk policy should somehow at least be revised in that that the procedures are carefully monitored so that these issues concerning racial profiling will come to a minimum. It's understood that there are neighborhoods with higher crime rates then others, however I would imagine that many of these residents in these neighborhoods are NOT playing the race card, (as some may think) that something is really happening here, and they are voicing out against the dissatisfaction of this policy for a reason that is legitimate, not imagined.

 

Hence my metaphoric response to Joe's metaphoric post reflecting a different take and opinion on this controversial policy:

 

Agreed, especially the bolded statement.

 

 

On a slightly different note here's a youtube video I would like for you to analyze. Tell if if something is clearly not wrong here in this scenario? 

 

This occurrence involves a minority youth, only 19, who was bodyslammed by a cop for no apparent reason, in a neighborhood that is not exactly predominantly black. I believe he did commit a crime (graffiti) however what happened is that during the frisk the cop was feeling the crouch, then the kid flinched and grabbed the frame of the wall sign. Then the police officer bodyslammed him on the concrete. That was excessive force. The teen was reluctantly charged with resisting arrest along with the original crime that I guess the youth did commit. Excuse me? This happened in South Brooklyn @ 45th Street and 4th Ave, not ENY or Bushwick FYI:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzPKFRARdqM

 

I can see why some are distrustful of police officers, not speaking for myself of course because I wouldn't go out of my way to commit criminal offenses or condone it like practically everyone else in this intelligent discussion on this hot -button topic. I wouldn't be in fear of police officers then. (Maybe you have a point)

 

As the saying goes a few rotten apples ruins the whole bunch. Unfortunate but true. 

I'm sure no one is dening that's excessive force. If anyone does, I'm sure they'd be comfortable enough with a similar stop from the police.

 

 

I'm not saying it is... All I'm saying is that Asians in this country have don't have high numbers when it comes to incarceration, which debunks the theory that people of color are being stopped and frisked just because.  I think it has more to do with the groups that commit crimes more being stopped and frisked more, which makes perfect sense.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not that is flat out profiling.

[realizm]

@ Turbo19: Basically many people can be in states in denial when it comes to prevalent problems within American society where it comes to law enforcement, government policies domestic and abroad, race relations, poverty and such subjects  they would rather justify the flaws with their own flawed thinking and live an illusion then accept reality and collectively do something about it as a multicultural nation.

 

I guess it will be our American red blooded children and grandchildren that will step up to the plate and make things happen because even in the year 2013 we've haven't exactly lived up to the expectations of our founding fathers, also those striving for equal rights during the civil rights movement. That's the bottom line. Hence what we see here today in the US particularly in the inner cities. 

What's the word? Apathy? I think that's the key word here......

[B35 via Church]

Wholeheartedly agree with this statement. It's called the drop one race rule for those who are of mixed race/nationality descent. (Which can go both ways sort of speak...) Like both of us and many others here I'm sure. Carry on.

One drop rule doesn't go both ways at all.....

 

If you're half black/half white, the one drop rule states that you are black, point blank.....

Whites do not accept anyone that has 1 black parent as being white.... Won't see it happen.

 

Too many blacks are quick to accept mixed folks as black (basically eating it up), not even knowing (or caring to know) the real reason why the one drop rule even came to pass.... It was/is a way to keep the white race pure... It's that simple.... 

 

Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Derek Jeter, Lenny Kravitz, etc. etc. are only black when convenient & not another time otherwise....

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm looking at that Sunset Park video, and I don't see what the kid did that warranted that extreme of a response. It looked like he was just grabbing onto the picture frame, but the officer didn't look like he was in any danger. (No sudden movement like he was reaching for something, or anything like that)

[realizm]

One drop rule doesn't go both ways at all.....

 

If you're half black/half white, the one drop rule states that you are black, point blank.....

Whites do not accept anyone that has 1 black parent as being white.... Won't see it happen.

 

Too many blacks are quick to accept mixed folks as black (basically eating it up), not even knowing (or caring to know) the real reason why the one drop rule even came to pass.... It was/is a way to keep the white race pure... It's that simple.... 

 

Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Derek Jeter, Lenny Kravitz, etc. etc. are only black when convenient & not another time otherwise....

 

Understood. I was told this before, by my stepfather actually and others, now that you are jogging my memory on this particular.

 

However for those who are mixed Asian it may be a different situation. You are judged based on your looks as to your 'Asianess'. Many mixed Asians many times are mistaken for another race and conveniently thrown into the Latino category if they don't look Asian enough. Again because of similar influences of ignorance where it comes to awareness of persons who are bi-racial. Many other mixed Asians are assumed to be pure Asian when they are not and actually share a bi-cultural heritage. And yes some are thrown into the black category when they actually share a multicultural Asian heritage, because again they don't look or act Asian enough by some.

 

That's how it works in that sense if you have Asian blood in you and in these cases we cant paint a broad brush, it's not that simple. 

[realizm]

Click on this : http://seaweedproductions.com/the-hapa-project/community/

 

This is a collection of pics taken by Asian American Activist and artist Kip Fulbeck who is of mixed Asian descent. You will see exactly how complicated it gets for mixed Asians. It could get pretty hard to tell who is what from where, from the collection of photos.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Understood. I was told this before, by my stepfather actually and others, now that you are jogging my memory on this particular.

 

However for those who are mixed Asian it may be a different situation. You are judged based on your looks as to your 'Asianess'. Many mixed Asians many times are mistaken for another race and conveniently thrown into the Latino category if they don't look Asian enough. Again because of similar influences of ignorance where it comes to awareness of persons who are bi-racial. Many other mixed Asians are assumed to be pure Asian when they are not and actually share a bi-cultural heritage. And yes some are thrown into the black category when they actually share a multicultural Asian heritage, because again they don't look or act Asian enough by some.

 

That's how it works in that sense if you have Asian blood in you and in these cases we cant paint a broad brush, it's not that simple. 

 

 

One drop rule doesn't go both ways at all.....

 

If you're half black/half white, the one drop rule states that you are black, point blank.....

Whites do not accept anyone that has 1 black parent as being white.... Won't see it happen.

 

Too many blacks are quick to accept mixed folks as black (basically eating it up), not even knowing (or caring to know) the real reason why the one drop rule even came to pass.... It was/is a way to keep the white race pure... It's that simple.... 

 

Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Derek Jeter, Lenny Kravitz, etc. etc. are only black when convenient & not another time otherwise....

LOL... Gotta laugh at this one drop rule nonsense... As far as I'm concerned it applied back in the old days, but there are too many of us mutts around to put us into nice little categories, so the way I see it, no one dictates to me what I am.  I get to choose that and most mixed folks I know say the same thing.  The U.S. is the only country that has his ridiculous "rule".  People have to live their lives in the way that best suits them and society really has no place trying to dictate to people what category they're supposed to "be in" and "live by".  With mixed people it's a whole different ball game because we're not just this or that.  What irks me the most is when interracial couples get together and then try to "train" the friggin' kids to tell them that they're this or that because of what society says, as if they should live their lives based on that.  Society has said a lot of things over the years that weren't necessarily right, so I wouldn't be so quick to go by that.

 

I say let the kid decide how they want to live their life and how they want to classify themselves as.  My mom being of mixed background herself let me decide how I wanted to do things and quite frankly I'd say I'm a much more enriched individual as a result and I'm not in any way "confused" or any of that nonsense.  

 

An Italian woman that I'm very good friends with has two mixed kids and me being a mixed Italian, we have very deep conversations about race and chat about how her kids are doing and the situations they face.  It's funny because her kids are growing up in Washington Heights and most of their friends are Latinos probably because they're also mixed in most cases, so they have sort of a bond or an understanding if you will.  It is similar situation in my case as well as most of my friends are Latinos.  

 

My good friend Angelo who I've known since my teenage years used to bust my chops about me being mixed and all but he went out with a mixed chick for a while and we'd talk about the nonsense we (as in his girlfriend and I) have to face as mixed folks, mainly prejudice from blacks esp.  All of the stares she would get or little snide remarks and such because she's light but mixed so it was like well oh she's mixed so she's automatically "stuck up", esp. being with my friend Angelo. I've received that same sort of treatment, so I say, hey might as well embrace it. LOL

 

I do agree with B35 however... We had a kid in our circle growing up who was Jewish and Black and he would go around saying he was everything but what he was... Usually would say he was Latino (which he could pass for) because if he said Jewish, well he'd catch crap and certainly would catch crap if he said he was Black.  I never actually chatted with the guy, since we weren't of the same immediate circle if you will, but thinking back on it I'd say you only get one of ya, so might as well make the best of it. When you're mixed though there can be awkward moments.  

 

You can hear a lot of people's "true feelings" (on various sides of the fence) that they wouldn't share around say black folks for example because they know that the remarks are clearly racist. The other night for example, this Puerto Rican guy I was chatting with was railing on Mexicans saying that they weren't Americanized like Puerto Ricans are, or the comment made by someone I know that "blacks are taking over". Gotta admit that one gives me a chuckle thinking back on it. LOL

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not that is flat out profiling.

LOL... That's what I've been saying the whole time... Cops PROFILE all of the time every day... That's how they find suspects by profiling.  They study crimes and how individuals act and their behavior and build profiles for future crimes to refer to. Certain people are indeed more prone to do certain crimes.  The reasons vary but there seems to be some truth in them.

[Turbo19]

LOL... That's what I've been saying the whole time... Cops PROFILE all of the time every day... That's how they find suspects by profiling.  They study crimes and how individuals act and their behavior and build profiles for future crimes to refer to. Certain people are indeed more prone to do certain crimes.  The reasons vary but there seems to be some truth in them.

I'll ask you this now, do you as an individual believe that is how the NYPD and other law enforcement agencies should be operating? Do you feel that this process is in any way unjust?

 

You (Via) can decline to answer, but I am interested in hearing your stance.

 

In fact if anyone else wants to share their piece on the question go right ahead.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'll ask you this now, do you as an individual believe that is how the NYPD and other law enforcement agencies should be operating? Do you feel that this process is in any way unjust?

 

You (Via) can decline to answer, but I am interested in hearing your stance.

 

In fact if anyone else wants to share their piece on the question go right ahead.

Well quite frankly, I don't see how they could do their jobs without profiling.  You see I watch a lot of Forensic programs and read up on this stuff, so gathering information and analyzing profiles of past criminals is an integral part of detective work.  A lot of crimes have been solved by studying profiles and how certain ethnic groups behave and their habits.  We are creatures of habit and we all have things that we do that makes us unique and different.  Furthermore one of things I was taught when I did security for a while was that the goal of any one that is looking to protect is to PREVENT and DETER, which means in the case of the cops, their job is to try to stop crimes from happening BEFOREHAND, and so stop and frisk in a way can be seen as a tactic that prevents and deters crimes from happening, not so much as a tactic that catches criminals in the act.  I think that's where the confusion comes in at. Cops generally are undermanned and underhanded, so they need to use prevent and deter tactics to keep control of the situation.

 

People argue well they don't catch that many people and this is true, but we don't know how many crimes these tactics stop.  Now is it f*cked up to stop random people and stop and frisk them? I'd say it's unfortunate but it's part of the job and if people want safe streets this is something that comes with that.  If cops weren't doing this they wouldn't be preventing or deterring crimes #1 and #2 they would be accused of not being proactive and letting situations fester and get out of hand.  

 

For folks that have so many problems with stop and frisk, tell me how cops could be more proactive without stop and frisk#1?? #2 when they're looking for white suspects that have done crimes and stopping and frisking whites (it does happen), do these same people have a problem with it, or is just because minorities are involved??

[CenSin]

I'll ask you this now, do you as an individual believe that is how the NYPD and other law enforcement agencies should be operating? Do you feel that this process is in any way unjust?

 

You (Via) can decline to answer, but I am interested in hearing your stance.

 

In fact if anyone else wants to share their piece on the question go right ahead.

I posted a few posts back, but it seems like your question warrants a different answer (are the cops racial profiling or putting their resources where the crime is versus is racial profiling justified).

 

I don't know the inner workings of law enforcement, but I will say that it's fair game to factor in race (which I think is definitely being done right now at the very least) as long as all the parameters are being weighted fairly (which is probably what we are really disputing).

 

 

Well quite frankly, I don't see how they could do their jobs without profiling.  You see I watch a lot of Forensic programs and read up on this stuff, so gathering information and analyzing profiles of past criminals is an integral part of detective work.

That's right, …

 

A lot of crimes have been solved by studying profiles and how certain ethnic groups behave and their habits.

…but that's just one of the parameters. I would not have given a second thought about what a well-dressed Mexican was carrying in his briefcase when he was walking around the college campus, but I would have given a hard look at the shabbily-dressed Latino and wondered what kind of paraphernalia he was carrying in his backpack outside of a chemistry lab. A lot of conditions goes into evaluating a person, and in this case "Mexican" and "Latino" could have been replaced with "Asian" or "White" and there wouldn't be a difference.

 

Cops generally are undermanned and underhanded, so they need to use prevent and deter tactis to keep control of the situation.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Optimizations have to be made to procedures when resources are being stretched. Like I said previously, it's about putting resources in the right places and not where it'll please the most whiners.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I posted a few posts back, but it seems like your question warrants a different answer (are the cops racial profiling or putting their resources where the crime is versus is racial profiling justified).

 

I don't know the inner workings of law enforcement, but I will say that it's fair game to factor in race (which I think is definitely being done right now at the very least) as long as all the parameters are being weighted fairly (which is probably what we are really disputing).

 

 

That's right, …

 

…but that's just one of the parameters. I would not have given a second thought about what a well-dressed Mexican was carrying in his briefcase when he was walking around the college campus, but I would have given a hard look at the shabbily-dressed Latino and wondered what kind of paraphernalia he was carrying in his backpack outside of a chemistry lab. A lot of conditions goes into evaluating a person, and in this case "Mexican" and "Latino" could have been replaced with "Asian" or "White" and there wouldn't be a difference.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Optimizations have to be made to procedures when resources are being stretched. Like I said previously, it's about putting resources in the right places and not where it'll please the most whiners.

Exactly... Now we as a society are guilty of profiling too, but there's this assumption that people that are well dressed are less likely to commit crimes and I'm sorry to say that but there's generally truth in that, at least when talking about white collar crime vs. blue collar crime.  We as a society have been trained if you will as to what is the typical criminal and what isn't.  It goes back to perceived perceptions.

[CenSin]

One drop rule doesn't go both ways at all.....

 

If you're half black/half white, the one drop rule states that you are black, point blank.....

Whites do not accept anyone that has 1 black parent as being white.... Won't see it happen.

 

Too many blacks are quick to accept mixed folks as black (basically eating it up), not even knowing (or caring to know) the real reason why the one drop rule even came to pass.... It was/is a way to keep the white race pure... It's that simple.... 

 

Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Derek Jeter, Lenny Kravitz, etc. etc. are only black when convenient & not another time otherwise....

I was thinking about this in a dream yesterday (please don't ask any questions about it), but it went off in a direction where I was debating whether "black" people in America were only superficially related to the original inhabitants of Africa by skin color and blood having been separated from their motherland long enough to develop an entire culture of their own, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

 

However for those who are mixed Asian it may be a different situation. You are judged based on your looks as to your 'Asianess'. Many mixed Asians many times are mistaken for another race and conveniently thrown into the Latino category if they don't look Asian enough. Again because of similar influences of ignorance where it comes to awareness of persons who are bi-racial. Many other mixed Asians are assumed to be pure Asian when they are not and actually share a bi-cultural heritage. And yes some are thrown into the black category when they actually share a multicultural Asian heritage, because again they don't look or act Asian enough by some.

 

That's how it works in that sense if you have Asian blood in you and in these cases we cant paint a broad brush, it's not that simple.

It's not commonly applied to other races (or rarely heard of), but many (like myself) apply the one-drop rule to Asians as well. People who deviate in appearance to a pure-blood Asian usually trip up my subconcious habit of categorizing people.

[Turbo19]

Well quite frankly, I don't see how they could do their jobs without profiling.  You see I watch a lot of Forensic programs and read up on this stuff, so gathering information and analyzing profiles of past criminals is an integral part of detective work.  A lot of crimes have been solved by studying profiles and how certain ethnic groups behave and their habits.  We are creatures of habit and we all have things that we do that makes us unique and different.  Furthermore one of things I was taught when I did security for a while was that the goal of any one that is looking to protect is to PREVENT and DETER, which means in the case of the cops, their job is to try to stop crimes from happening BEFOREHAND, and so stop and frisk in a way can be seen as a tactic that prevents and deters crimes from happening, not so much as a tactic that catches criminals in the act.  I think that's where the confusion comes in at. Cops generally are undermanned and underhanded, so they need to use prevent and deter tactics to keep control of the situation.

 

People argue well they don't catch that many people and this is true, but we don't know how many crimes these tactics stop.  Now is it f*cked up to stop random people and stop and frisk them? I'd say it's unfortunate but it's part of the job and if people want safe streets this is something that comes with that.  If cops weren't doing this they wouldn't be preventing or deterring crimes #1 and #2 they would be accused of not being proactive and letting situations fester and get out of hand.  

 

For folks that have so many problems with stop and frisk, tell me how cops could be more proactive without stop and frisk#1?? #2 when they're looking for white suspects that have done crimes and stopping and frisking whites (it does happen), do these same people have a problem with it, or is just because minorities are involved??

Let's set the record straight. I don't have a problem with the stop and frisks because it supposedly targets minorities, I have a problem with the stop and frisks as they embrech on peoples personal rights. If the police wanted to search your home, you work, your vehicle (if you owned one) they'd need a warrant to do just that, so why is searching a person any different?

 

You're asking how can cops be proactive without stop and frisk. The way I see it, regular patrols on foot suffice. That's what most every other major city in the U.S. is doing. And while you could argue that NYC is different than any other city I'm sure the problems faced out in the five boroughs are being combated in other heavily populated areas.

 

I posted a few posts back, but it seems like your question warrants a different answer (are the cops racial profiling or putting their resources where the crime is versus is racial profiling justified).

 

I don't know the inner workings of law enforcement, but I will say that it's fair game to factor in race (which I think is definitely being done right now at the very least) as long as all the parameters are being weighted fairly (which is probably what we are really disputing).

As I said, I'm not all that concerned with race. I'm concerned moreso with the tactic itself.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's not commonly applied to other races (or rarely heard of), but many (like myself) apply the one-drop rule to Asians as well. People who deviate in appearance to a pure-blood Asian usually trip up my subconcious habit of categorizing people.

Yeah, it's funny that you have that thinking and then you talk about "pure-blood"... LOL I mean I look at Tiger Woods as a great example. IMO the guy clearly looks mixed with Asian based on his features, but because he has tan skin and fuller lips than some Asians, most don't consider him to be Asian. I know of a Thai lady in my old office who I still chat with and Asians can be very "rigid" if you will when it comes to this topic. She considers Tiger to be Thai like Tiger's mother, but it's almost like said in a defensive way so as to quiet the loud majority. LOL I think it goes back to the old days when the Europeans came to Asia and Asians tried to keep their "pureness". I do have several Asian friends and I just know from experience that Asians generally don't like to mix outside of their own ethnicity let alone outside of their race with a white person or even worse a black person. LOL It's viewed as like bringing shame upon the family.

 

The other day an Asian couple came to my office.  They're clients of mine and the dude that I deal with is Japanese.  I had no idea he was married, but his wife is Korean. I said wow... Knowing how the Japanese are viewed in Asian culture, esp. by the Chinese and then the Koreans, I do wonder how exactly that whole went over. I may even ask them when I see them next time because they're cool like that.

 

The thing is though, they're both around my age so they're of the younger generation.  They make a nice couple too.  Both good looking if I may say so myself.

 

Let's set the record straight. I don't have a problem with the stop and frisks because it supposedly targets minorities, I have a problem with the stop and frisks as they embrech on peoples personal rights. If the police wanted to search your home, you work, your vehicle (if you owned one) they'd need a warrant to do just that, so why is searching a person any different?

 

You're asking how can cops be proactive without stop and frisk. The way I see it, regular patrols on foot suffice. That's what most every other major city in the U.S. is doing. And while you could argue that NYC is different than any other city I'm sure the problems faced out in the five boroughs are being combated in other heavily populated areas.

 

As I said, I'm not all that concerned with race. I'm concerned moreso with the tactic itself.

LOL... I'm sorry but if cops see someone that they think looks suspicious, what are they supposed to do? Ask permission to stop the person and search them? I mean come on now... No one is going to voluntarily agree to be stopped and frisked in most cases, esp. not most minorities since they already view the cops as the enemy.

 

You take away stop and frisk and cops can no longer be proactive... Patrolling the area helps but it still puts cops in a reactive situation rather than a proactive one.  When riots break out it's usually because the cops are in a reactive state and that's when things get even worse.

[Turbo19]

LOL... I'm sorry but if cops see someone that they think looks suspicious, what are they supposed to do? Ask permission to stop the person and search them? I mean come on now... No one is going to voluntarily agree to be stopped and frisked in most cases, esp. not most minorities since they already view the cops as the enemy.

For the last time, this goes beyond the minority issue.

 

If the police based everything on suspicion, half of the damn city would have likely been in prison at least once in their life. This tactic is not only narrow minded, but it violates people's constitutional rights.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

For the last time, this goes beyond the minority issue.

 

If the police based everything on suspicion, half of the damn city would have likely been in prison at least once in their life. This tactic is not only narrow minded, but it violates people's constitutional rights.

You haven't proposed one thing yet that would help cops to remain proactive in fighting crime aside from patrolling, which they already do.  Like I said before if someone isn't doing anything then there shouldn't be any problems with letting the cops stop and search you.  Now I've had the cops randomly stop me at the Ferry terminal and at Grand Central and ask to search my bag and I willingly let them do so.  I mean what is the big friggin' deal?? If I'm not doing anything then there shouldn't be a problem, not unless I have something to hide.

 

And for the record, cops have the right to search your person because they can argue immediate danger if a person looks suspicious.  That kid in the video that realizm posted, all we see is the cop chasing him.  We don't see why though... Then you see the kid flinch when the cop is searching him when he was told to not move (which means just that, including flinching) and he wonders why he was body slammed...  It's easy to question the tactics of cops when our lives aren't on the line every day, but I'd like to know what you would do if you were a cop...

 

I see cops patrolling my neighborhood daily and they have never jumped out of the car and stopped me for looking suspicious and there's a good reason for that too... #1 I don't dress like some hoodlum and #2 I carry myself in a respectful manner and if I was stopped I would have no problem cooperating.  Some of these guys out here provoke the situation by not listening. If a cop tells you don't move, you don't move because then you're creating a problem for yourself unnecessarily and they do have the right to use enough force that they feel is necessary to regain control over the situation.