Controversial NYPD 'stop and frisk' policy goes on trial in NY

[B35 via Church]

Profiling is gonna go on regardless.... It's the world we live in & nothing is gonna change regarding that.... Sucks, but it is what it is.....

I hate to put it like that, but if you act like animals, you should be treated like animals..... As a black man, I'm sick of the ratchetness, downtrodden mindset & flat out niggotry (lol) that's rampant amongst us blacks..... You aren't gonna have cops in some white suburb stopping & frisking people; although flat out racism has a lot to do with that, it isn't the sole reason this tactic is practiced either....You reap what you sow, and too many of us (blacks) wanna act a fool & expect no repercussion for that shit..... And this is coming from someone that's been stopped & frisked before - No I didn't like it obviously, but with the way many of us act, I understand it.... Instead of acting like an ass & exacerbating the situation, I complied & went on my way each time.....

 

With that said, lemme get to these 2 quotes real quick......

 

 

 

Understood. I was told this before, by my stepfather actually and others, now that you are jogging my memory on this particular.

 

However for those who are mixed Asian it may be a different situation. You are judged based on your looks as to your 'Asianess'. Many mixed Asians many times are mistaken for another race and conveniently thrown into the Latino category if they don't look Asian enough. Again because of similar influences of ignorance where it comes to awareness of persons who are bi-racial. Many other mixed Asians are assumed to be pure Asian when they are not and actually share a bi-cultural heritage. And yes some are thrown into the black category when they actually share a multicultural Asian heritage, because again they don't look or act Asian enough by some.

 

That's how it works in that sense if you have Asian blood in you and in these cases we cant paint a broad brush, it's not that simple. 

If you're asian mixed with something other than black (or latino), then the one drop rule doesn't come into play.....

 

I get what you're saying w/ that 2nd paragraph, but what I'm trying to get across is that the premise behind the "rule" is very specific & doesn't apply to just any mixed person....

 

LOL... Gotta laugh at this one drop rule nonsense... As far as I'm concerned it applied back in the old days, but there are too many of us mutts around to put us into nice little categories, so the way I see it, no one dictates to me what I am.  I get to choose that and most mixed folks I know say the same thing.  The U.S. is the only country that has his ridiculous "rule".  People have to live their lives in the way that best suits them and society really has no place trying to dictate to people what category they're supposed to "be in" and "live by".  With mixed people it's a whole different ball game because we're not just this or that.  What irks me the most is when interracial couples get together and then try to "train" the friggin' kids to tell them that they're this or that because of what society says, as if they should live their lives based on that.  Society has said a lot of things over the years that weren't necessarily right, so I wouldn't be so quick to go by that.

As far as I'm concerned, you're preaching to the choir.... Like I said earlier, the "rule" came about to keep the white race pure...

Your comment "LOL It's viewed as like bringing shame upon the family" is one of the reasons we even have this stupid one drop rule....

 

To keep it all the way real, the way it's looked at is, if you got nzzzz blood in you, then you are a nzzzz, point blank period..... Blacks are the only race of people that run around accepting people of mixed backgrounds as being black (not mixed, but black)..... Whites don't do this & Asians don't do this..... Two white parents makes you white.... Two asian parents makes you asian.... but just ONE black parent supposedly makes you black though - damn that..... You are not (said to be) full on white or asian if you are mixed with something else by either of those races - but if you're mixed with black, oh, you can come over here & claim black willy nilly like it's nothin - for whatever the reason(s)..... Just as whites are not accepting of mixed race people as being white, I'm not accepting of mixed race people as being black either..... I've always felt that way.... If you're mixed, you're mixed and that's that......

 

I wish more people were more prideful of being mixed like you are.... Trust me, you are in a small minority with your attitude of being mixed, Via...People generally want to feel like they're a part of something, which is why you have as many mixed people latching onto one side of their racial/cultural makeup over the other.... Especially when convenient..... And putting the bug in your offspring's ear at an early age that you should claim one or the other, or one over the other, is infact dangerous, large in part because you end up f***in up that kid's psyche for life...... That's why you have so many running around confused as it is now......
 

[realizm]

 

Understood. I was told this before, by my stepfather actually and others, now that you are jogging my memory on this particular.

 

However for those who are mixed Asian it may be a different situation. You are judged based on your looks as to your 'Asianess'. Many mixed Asians many times are mistaken for another race and conveniently thrown into the Latino category if they don't look Asian enough. Again because of similar influences of ignorance where it comes to awareness of persons who are bi-racial. Many other mixed Asians are assumed to be pure Asian when they are not and actually share a bi-cultural heritage. And yes some are thrown into the black category when they actually share a multicultural Asian heritage, because again they don't look or act Asian enough by some.

 

That's how it works in that sense if you have Asian blood in you and in these cases we cant paint a broad brush, it's not that simple. 

 

 

If you're asian mixed with something other than black (or latino), then the one drop rule doesn't come into play.....

 

I get what you're saying w/ that 2nd paragraph, but what I'm trying to get across is that the premise behind the "rule" is very specific & doesn't apply to just any mixed person....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very true indeed. Totally agree. This is exactly what Afro-Asians have to contend with in regards to the one drop race rule. However this happens with Eurasians as well where they feel the pressure to perform the one race drop rule in regards to their Asian heritage to fit in with the white majority.

 

But who am I to judge? However they wish to identify themselves is their business, not mine. As far as myself, a mixed Asian, I'm Asian and that's it end of story. And generally speaking I hate it when people challenge me over it in my personal life, an ongoing struggle. Not just me but for many 'hapas'. Of course I will stand firm by my bi-racial heritage. They will not change my own perception of myself. As with many others in my shoes and walking my path. 

 

I wish more people were more prideful of being mixed like you are.... Trust me, you are in a small minority with your attitude of being mixed, Via...People generally want to feel like they're a part of something, which is why you have as many mixed people latching onto one side of their racial/cultural makeup over the other.... Especially when convenient..... And putting the bug in your offspring's ear at an early age that you should claim one or the other, or one over the other, is infact dangerous, large in part because you end up f***in up that kid's psyche for life...... That's why you have so many running around confused as it is now......

 

Not speaking for VG8 as he has his own views but yes I am in accord with you 100%.  I wish people would be more appreciative of their multicultural heritage as well. In fact psychologists has PROVEN that the drop one race rule is psychologically unhealthy and that for interracial married couples with children it is for the best interests in regards to the mental health of the child to raise them as such that they are educated on all facets of their bi-racialness. +1.

 

 

 

As far as I'm concerned it applied back in the old days, but there are too many of us mutts around to put us into nice little categories, so the way I see it, no one dictates to me what I am.  I get to choose that and most mixed folks I know say the same thing.  The U.S. is the only country that has his ridiculous "rule".  People have to live their lives in the way that best suits them and society really has no place trying to dictate to people what category they're supposed to "be in" and "live by".  With mixed people it's a whole different ball game because we're not just this or that.  What irks me the most is when interracial couples get together and then try to "train" the friggin' kids to tell them that they're this or that because of what society says, as if they should live their lives based on that.  Society has said a lot of things over the years that weren't necessarily right, so I wouldn't be so quick to go by that.

 

Indeed. That's also exactly my point as well. You and B35 via Church are both on point because of these statements. But he is correct, the one drop race rule is something persons who has a bi-racial heritage that shares an Afrocentric aspect are under the most pressure, as are Asians, in different ways. So the "If you are 1% black then you are black" stereotypical type of prevalent thinking does exist and is real. +1 for appreciation for your heritage. This is an insightful post.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Profiling is gonna go on regardless.... It's the world we live in & nothing is gonna change regarding that.... Sucks, but it is what it is.....

I hate to put it like that, but if you act like animals, you should be treated like animals..... As a black man, I'm sick of the ratchetness, downtrodden mindset & flat out niggotry (lol) that's rampant amongst us blacks..... You aren't gonna have cops in some white suburb stopping & frisking people; although flat out racism has a lot to do with that, it isn't the sole reason this tactic is practiced either....You reap what you sow, and too many of us (blacks) wanna act a fool & expect no repercussion for that shit..... And this is coming from someone that's been stopped & frisked before - No I didn't like it obviously, but with the way many of us act, I understand it.... Instead of acting like an ass & exacerbating the situation, I complied & went on my way each time.....

 

With that said, lemme get to these 2 quotes real quick......

 

 

 

If you're asian mixed with something other than black (or latino), then the one drop rule doesn't come into play.....

 

I get what you're saying w/ that 2nd paragraph, but what I'm trying to get across is that the premise behind the "rule" is very specific & doesn't apply to just any mixed person....

 

As far as I'm concerned, you're preaching to the choir.... Like I said earlier, the "rule" came about to keep the white race pure...

Your comment "LOL It's viewed as like bringing shame upon the family" is one of the reasons we even have this stupid one drop rule....

 

To keep it all the way real, the way it's looked at is, if you got nzzzz blood in you, then you are a nzzzz, point blank period..... Blacks are the only race of people that run around accepting people of mixed backgrounds as being black (not mixed, but black)..... Whites don't do this & Asians don't do this..... Two white parents makes you white.... Two asian parents makes you asian.... but just ONE black parent supposedly makes you black though - damn that..... You are not (said to be) full on white or asian if you are mixed with something else by either of those races - but if you're mixed with black, oh, you can come over here & claim black willy nilly like it's nothin - for whatever the reason(s)..... Just as whites are not accepting of mixed race people as being white, I'm not accepting of mixed race people as being black either..... I've always felt that way.... If you're mixed, you're mixed and that's that......

 

I wish more people were more prideful of being mixed like you are.... Trust me, you are in a small minority with your attitude of being mixed, Via...People generally want to feel like they're a part of something, which is why you have as many mixed people latching onto one side of their racial/cultural makeup over the other.... Especially when convenient..... And putting the bug in your offspring's ear at an early age that you should claim one or the other, or one over the other, is infact dangerous, large in part because you end up f***in up that kid's psyche for life...... That's why you have so many running around confused as it is now......

 

Well I had parents that were more laid back growing up and straightforward, so I'm lucky in that regard and being Sicilian on my father's side, that's a mixture in and of itself.   Now and days there are so many of us that it's no longer an oddity to meet folks such as myself.  The Italian chick I know, her family is quite racist, but since the kids are mixed they have less "preservations" if you will.  I tell ya, some of the sh*t she tells me about her family when we hang out we have to sit and laugh... Her English isn't that great so it's even funnier since it's in Italian.  

[realizm]

 

 

It's not commonly applied to other races (or rarely heard of), but many (like myself) apply the one-drop rule to Asians as well. People who deviate in appearance to a pure-blood Asian usually trip up my subconcious habit of categorizing people.

 

 

I'll say this objectively and as a general statement: That is what happens with pure blood Asians in regards to how they view persons of mixed Asian descent, as I noted in my previous posts. To an extent that is actually a form of reverse Asian racism. Many Afro-Asians across the board in Asia experience this according to my knowledge and accounts in books and on the net. Dozens of resources. Like I said the model minority myth is a poisonous form or racism against Asians and the drop one race rules that stems from it. You've just highlighted an aspect of it in regards to how mixed Asians are treated by their own many times even, without realizing it but that's fine, your statement is very true, regardless.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

Very true indeed. Totally agree. This is exactly what Afro-Asians have to contend with in regards to the one drop race rule. However this happens with Eurasians as well where they feel the pressure to perform the one race drop rule in regards to their Asian heritage to fit in with the white majority.

 

But who am I to judge? However they wish to identify themselves is their business, not mine. As far as myself, a mixed Asian, I'm Asian and that's it end of story. And generally speaking I hate it when people challenge me over it in my personal life, an ongoing struggle. Not just me but for many 'hapas'. Of course I will stand firm by my bi-racial heritage. They will not change my own perception of myself. As with many others in my shoes and walking my path. 

 

 

Not speaking for VG8 as he has his own views but yes I am in accord with you 100%.  I wish people would be more appreciative of their multicultural heritage as well. In fact psychologists has PROVEN that the drop one race rule is psychologically unhealthy and that for interracial married couples with children it is for the best interests in regards to the mental health of the child to raise them as such that they are educated on all facets of their bi-racialness. +1.

Well yeah, of course they have problems... They look at themselves in the mirror and see one thing and society is telling them that they have to embrace something else, which usually means excluding a part of themselves in some way or fashion which is beyond stupid.  I just refuse to buy into nonsense.  You have to be confident in who you are and just be yourself and not worry about what other people think because people are always going to have something to say or think something.  It's a bit funny that we identify animals as being of various colors (a black and white dalmatian for example), but people some how aren't supposed to be a mixture of things because everyone is supposed to be "pure". LOL

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

 

 

I'll say this objectively and as a general statement: That is what happens with pure blood Asians in regards to how they view persons of mixed Asian descent, as I noted in my previous posts. To an extent that is actually a form of reverse Asian racism. Many Afro-Asians across the board in Asia experience this according to my knowledge and accounts in books and on the net. Dozens of resources. Like I said the model minority myth is a poisonous form or racism against Asians and the drop one race rules that stems from it. You've just highlighted an aspect of it in regards to how mixed Asians are treated by their own many times even, without realizing it but that's fine, your statement is very true, regardless.

I just find the whole idea of pure anything to be ridiculous... It's nice that people think like this though because it shows a bit of insecurity if you will when you think about it.  When it comes down to it anything mixed with black is looked down upon because everyone is trying to obtain the closest thing to "the best" which is supposedly white, period and the funny thing is most people either think this way subconsciously or don't realize it.  I remember hanging out with some friends at our friend Dave's house who is Chinese and one of the dudes who is white said, look, her hair is almost "normal" and I thought to myself, what exactly is supposed to be normal, but in his eyes, "normal" is straight hair like a white chick would have.  The chick was mixed I believe and her hair was pretty nice, hence why he said "almost normal"... 

 

We've veered off onto this tangent if you will but it certainly relates to the overall topic at hand which we've discussed very deeply I must say. lol I understand where the folks that have problems with stop and frisk are coming from because yes, one can feel invaded but there is no 100% proof way to go about policing.  No one likes stop and frisk regardless of race, but it's a necessary evil IMO because as I said before, it allows cops to prevent and deter crimes before they happen. The real issues go back to WHO is doing the majority of the crimes, and that's the problem and something that can't be brushed aside.  I mean at the end of the day we do take in what we see in the media about crimes committed and most of the time the crimes are done by minorities (blacks and Latinos).  Now yes, some of that is perpetrated by the media, no question about it, BUT the stats don't lie and that's something that really does play out in how the cops deal with minorities.  

 

You can't just expect stop and frisk to just go away without discussing why it's occurring in the first place and while yes some of it is indeed racism (because you do have some overaggressive cops), some of it comes from the high crime rates, so it's a combination of things. Until blacks and Latinos admit this and stop acting as if it's solely because of race, this situation will never change.  

[B35 via Church]

...Until blacks and Latinos admit this and stop acting as if it's solely because of race, this situation will never change.  

I don't see an avenue where it will ever change (even if we stop playing the victim card when it comes to just police/policing matters), due to the fact that there's just too much bad history.... Maybe unintentional, but in making that statement, you're kinda saying that people should forget who they are.... The perpetual feeling/being victims in this country due to simply being black/hispanic isn't ever going to evaporate....

 

In plain english, we'll never be seen as equals by the white elite that runs shit....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't see an avenue where it will ever change (even if we stop playing the victim card when it comes to just police/policing matters), due to the fact that there's just too much bad history.... Maybe unintentional, but in making that statement, you're kinda saying that people should forget who they are.... The perpetual feeling/being victims in this country due to simply being black/hispanic isn't ever going to evaporate....

 

In plain english, we'll never be seen as equals by the white elite that runs shit....

Well that I agree on... I'm not saying that people should forget who they are.  I'm just saying that I don't believe stop and frisk is based solely on race or because people are minorities, but let's say that it is and play devil's advocate. That image isn't enhanced much with the amount of black and Latinos that are being incarcerated.  It's apparently a minor detail that is left out but one that I think certainly makes the situation worse and also can make cops rather hostile when dealing with them.

[B35 via Church]

Well that I agree on... I'm not saying that people should forget who they are.  I'm just saying that I don't believe stop and frisk is based solely on race or because people are minorities, but let's say that it is and play devil's advocate. That image isn't enhanced much with the amount of black and Latinos that are being incarcerated.  It's apparently a minor detail that is left out but one that I think certainly makes the situation worse and also can make cops rather hostile when dealing with them.

Based on just race, well no - there's a crime element appended to it as well.... Simply being black or hispanic doesn't make you guilty...

However, I do believe it was founded on race & not the crime element itself.....

[SoSpectacular]

We've come a long way since the introduction of stop and frisk back in '92... If anyone knows their history NYC was an absolute shithole to live in thanks to the whole crack epidemic and the surge of gang violence, murders, whatever you think goes on in those dark corners of the city... But things have definitely changed since then. 21 years later and here we are. We're much more better off today than what the media wants us to believe...

[Turbo19]

You haven't proposed one thing yet that would help cops to remain proactive in fighting crime aside from patrolling, which they already do.  Like I said before if someone isn't doing anything then there shouldn't be any problems with letting the cops stop and search you.  Now I've had the cops randomly stop me at the Ferry terminal and at Grand Central and ask to search my bag and I willingly let them do so.  I mean what is the big friggin' deal?? If I'm not doing anything then there shouldn't be a problem, not unless I have something to hide.

 

And for the record, cops have the right to search your person because they can argue immediate danger if a person looks suspicious.  That kid in the video that realizm posted, all we see is the cop chasing him.  We don't see why though... Then you see the kid flinch when the cop is searching him when he was told to not move (which means just that, including flinching) and he wonders why he was body slammed...  It's easy to question the tactics of cops when our lives aren't on the line every day, but I'd like to know what you would do if you were a cop...

 

I see cops patrolling my neighborhood daily and they have never jumped out of the car and stopped me for looking suspicious and there's a good reason for that too... #1 I don't dress like some hoodlum and #2 I carry myself in a respectful manner and if I was stopped I would have no problem cooperating.  Some of these guys out here provoke the situation by not listening. If a cop tells you don't move, you don't move because then you're creating a problem for yourself unnecessarily and they do have the right to use enough force that they feel is necessary to regain control over the situation.

Let us continue debating, shall we...

 

How can you expect the "suspect" to not flinch? These are the same a**holes that apply all of their 250 pounds of force on one person. That shit is way out of line and excessive.

 

And if I was an officer I'd give a fair level of respect, just as I would expect that in return. Now obviously I'd fail the preliminary exam as PD expects you to be the controlling individual in such situations and as you've seen I don't carry myself in that manner.

 

 

Satisfied?

[realizm]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/stop_frisk_is_on_trial_8iWjf3jv8qtB8IzUe7JLbN?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=Local

 

According to a source in the NY Post, in the ongoing opening proceedings of this class action civil suit, city lawyers has stated to Judge Shira Scheindlin that that “crime drives where officers go, not race” and that stopping, questioning and frisking potential criminals drives down crime."  One of the city layers, Ms. Heidi Grossman noted that in the borough of Staten Island, in the predominantly white 122nd Precinct, most people stopped are white, with the reverse in Brooklyn’s largely black 73rd Precinct, where most of the persons stopped and frisked are black.

 

However, the lawyer representing the plaintiffs, Mr. Darius Charney states,  “The NYPD has laid siege to black and Latino neighborhoods over the past eight years,  that 85 percent of the police stop-and-frisks since 2005 have been of blacks and Hispanics, who account for less than 50 percent of the population."

 

Thoughts?

 

*I just realized something. Do you guys see the parallels between the basis of the arguments of the lawyers representing the plantiffs and the City of New York in the trial, and with our debate? This means we are right on the money with our viewpoints. It's all valid points as these professionals in law are saying the exact same thing we are saying here as opposing viewpoints.

[Turbo19]

Thoughts?

 

*I just realized something. Do you guys see the parallels between the basis of the arguments of the lawyers representing the plantiffs and the City of New York in the trial, and with our debate? This means we are right on the money with our viewpoints. It's all valid points as these professionals in law are saying the exact same thing we are saying here as opposing viewpoints.

Well I'll tell you something (slightly off-topic) that I'm sure you agree on. Myself, as someone who is interested in practicing law in the future has this to say. In reality any stable person can be a laywer. I'm sure most everyone has the attitude as well as the power to refute the opposition in a court of law. The fact is the only seperation between us (as a common people) and legal attorneys is credentials.

 

And to be quite honest credentials don't hold as much power as they used to in the wayback. In fact, the only power that the beholder of said credentials is the power to take sums in the mid-hundreds to present a defense.

 

Which is also why I'm interested in eventually applying the bar in CA and becoming an attorney as I'd have the opportunity to help others, while at the same time take a large amount of money from the client in the process.

[realizm]

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/stop_frisk_is_on_trial_8iWjf3jv8qtB8IzUe7JLbN?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=Local

 

According to a source in the NY Post, in the ongoing opening proceedings of this class action civil suit, city lawyers has stated to Judge Shira Scheindlin that that “crime drives where officers go, not race” and that stopping, questioning and frisking potential criminals drives down crime."  One of the city layers, Ms. Heidi Grossman noted that in the borough of Staten Island, in the predominantly white 122nd Precinct, most people stopped are white, with the reverse in Brooklyn’s largely black 73rd Precinct, where most of the persons stopped and frisked are black.

 

However, the lawyer representing the plaintiffs, Mr. Darius Charney states,  “The NYPD has laid siege to black and Latino neighborhoods over the past eight years,  that 85 percent of the police stop-and-frisks since 2005 have been of blacks and Hispanics, who account for less than 50 percent of the population."

 

Thoughts?

 

*I just realized something. Do you guys see the parallels between the basis of the arguments of the lawyers representing the plantiffs and the City of New York in the trial, and with our debate? This means we are right on the money with our viewpoints. It's all valid points as these professionals in law are saying the exact same thing we are saying here as opposing viewpoints.

 

Well I'll tell you something (slightly off-topic) that I'm sure you agree on. Myself, as someone who is interested in practicing law in the future has this to say. In reality any stable person can be a laywer. I'm sure most everyone has the attitude as well as the power to refute the opposition in a court of law. The fact is the only seperation between us (as a common people) and legal attorneys is credentials.

 

And to be quite honest credentials don't hold as much power as they used to in the wayback. In fact, the only power that the beholder of said credentials is the power to take sums in the mid-hundreds to present a defense.

 

Which is also why I'm interested in eventually applying the bar in CA and becoming an attorney as I'd have the opportunity to help others, while at the same time take a large amount of money from the client in the process.

 

 

I think I see what your thinking on this. Let me repeat what you are saying:

 

Anyone who has a good mental and emotional grasp on things can practice law.

 

It's obviously demonstrated here in this thread right here in the off topic forum as all of us are participating in a debate over a hot button topic over a very legally and ethically complicated and complex issue at hand here, stating points and presenting them in this thread in a surprisingly similar way and in going along the same lines to what the attorneys are presenting before a judge and jury!

 

The difference between a commonplace person who is a wise and intelligent critical thinker and an established  lawyer is the said credentials you have mentioned. What education the person has. Their accomplishments by means of participation in internships, paid or not, such as judicial clerkships, law clerks positions at well established firms, while in school, as well as the actual experience they have in different areas of legal expertise once they have graduated and are engaged in practice as an established legal attorney.

 

In the past these credentials were what would make the difference in the proceedings towards a final judgement in a case. But lawyers do not yield as much influence and power as they used to have. 

 

In other words, lawyers don't really have as much power and influence in the judicial system as they used to be. If that is what you are saying, that would be quite disturbing to me what is happening here with the legal system and the options civilians have to defend themselves before a court of law. It's no wonder we see cases turn out in a way that is disconcerting to say the least and makes us wonder if there is even any real understanding of the ethics of right and wrong in the said judicial system anymore today.

 

I think that's what I'm getting here from what you are telling me.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Let us continue debating, shall we...

 

How can you expect the "suspect" to not flinch? These are the same a**holes that apply all of their 250 pounds of force on one person. That shit is way out of line and excessive.

 

And if I was an officer I'd give a fair level of respect, just as I would expect that in return. Now obviously I'd fail the preliminary exam as PD expects you to be the controlling individual in such situations and as you've seen I don't carry myself in that manner.

 

 

Satisfied?

lol.... I think your attitude is that the "suspect" is harmless and thus the cop is using excessive force but you only get one chance do something and do it right.  I know I sound pro-cop and let me tell you, I am because you know why? I've worked security in some rough neighborhoods albeit mainly in banks but still rough neighborhoods nevertheless and you can never take anything for granted because if you do it could be your life.  You look at it as, the cop is much bigger than that little guy so automatically the cop is a douchebag.  I look at it as you can't let your guard down for one second out in the streets.  Like I said I understand your point of view, but cops have a damn tough job too and I don't think people realize this until they're out there.  They have a split second to make a decision and if they f*ck it up it could be their life.

 

At the end of the day, yeah they're trained and everything, but they're HUMANS.  We all f*ck up and in the heat of the moment you have a split second to make a quick decision.  Yes you have your a-holes, but I'm not going to demonize all cops because I understand first hand what they have to go through on the street and they sure as hell had my back when I was working out there late at night doing security.   I still say about that video that all we saw was the cop chasing after the guy.  We didn't see the full video, so from the looks of it, we can easily argue that the cop used excessive force... I personally give the cop the benefit of the doubt.

 

Now the one thing in that video that annoyed me was the guy with the hanging pants... I mean WTF did he call himself doing with the damn phone practically in the cop's face trying to be a wise @ss like yeah I'm filming you.  I mean sure he has every right to film but don't be a d*ck about it.  If the cop really was a jerk he would've roughed that kid up too but he didn't do anything, so that suggests to me that we don't have the full story.

[realizm]

At the end of the day, yeah they're trained and everything, but they're HUMANS.  We all f*ck up and in the heat of the moment you have a split second to make a quick decision.  Yes you have ur a-holes, but I'm not going to demonize all cops because I understand first hand what they have to go through on the street and they sure as hell had my back when I was working out there late at night doing security.   I still say about that video that all we saw was the cop chasing after the guy.  We didn't see the full video, so from the looks of it, we can easily argue that the cop used excessive force... I personally give the cop the benefit of the doubt.

 

Going on a different tangent again because I can. You saw what Turbo19 said in post #63, correct? You saw the statement he made that anyone can practice law and that the only thing that  sets us professionals of different educational and employment backgrounds apart from attorneys, lawyers, lawmakers, politicians and judges, are their credentials. You have that ability as well as everyone else here who participated in this discussion so far.

 

In other words we all have a sense of justice. It is innate in us. Whether a person is atheistic, or believes in God, the fact remains it is in us, that sense of justice. That sense of justice is relative to our perspective, our aspirations, our experiences and our intelligence.

 

What the difference is this concerning many of us including yourself: Our perspectives and our own sense of justice.

 

So is with many others outside this discussion on this forum. Such as those who are even regular minority law abiding citizens who actually dress professionally who still, do end up harassed by police? Doesn't those people also have a sense of justice? I would imagine many people are frankly very pissed off and quite frankly fearful of the police today for a reason. 

 

I realize you keep on debunking the facts. Fine. So let's go back to the basics on what justice means for us civilians first and start on a clean slate before we continue. You can start first. Describe to me what entails equal rights for all. Tell me.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Going on a different tangent again because I can. You saw what Turbo19 said in post #63, correct? You saw the statement he made that anyone can practice law and that the only thing that  sets us professionals of different educational and employment backgrounds apart from attorneys, lawyers, lawmakers, politicians and judges, are their credentials. You have that ability as well as everyone else here who participated in this discussion so far.

 

In other words we all have a sense of justice. It is innate in us. Whether a person is atheistic, or believes in God, the fact remains it is in us, that sense of justice. That sense of justice is relative to our perspective, our aspirations, our experiences and our intelligence.

 

What the difference is this concerning many of us including yourself: Our perspectives and our own sense of justice.

 

So is with many others outside this discussion on this forum. Such as those who are even regular minority law abiding citizens who actually dress professionally who still, do end up harassed by police? Doesn't those people also have a sense of justice? I would imagine many people are frankly very pissed off and quite frankly fearful of the police today for a reason. 

 

I realize you keep on debunking the facts. Fine. So let's go back to the basics on what justice means for us civilians first and start on a clean slate before we continue. You can start first. Describe to me what entails equal rights for all. Tell me.

lol... Where am I debunking the facts at?? I've stated that crooked cops DO exist, and that some are overaggressive.

 

I've also stated that you have individuals that provoke cops too... The issue with stop and frisk is what is "suspicious"?  That's not something that one can paint in black or white but rather something that's a judgment call based on experience that cops have in the field.  That's where their intuition comes into play and where they have to be cops and make quick decisions.  Do they screw up? Of course.  We all do, but understand that they have to walk a very fine line to try to ensure that everyone has equal rights.  If you're looking for an easy answer to your question, there isn't one. That's what I've been saying.  Stop & Frisk isn't the SOLE problem with cops.  The problem stems much further than this procedure.

 

If you want TRUE equal rights, I don't think you'll ever get that and a lot of that has to do with the image and perception that minorities have created from their own actions.  You can't just dismiss the fact that blacks and Latinos are incarcerated the most.  No amount of training is going to "fix" things to make things equal because cops can't just do their job based on solely facts.  They MUST use their own intuition to make split decisions and that's where personal experiences come into play in addition to their training.

 

You can however improve the situation over time and you do that with more dialogue between the community and the police so that both sides understand each other. It's not an overnight process that's for sure and until steps are taken to change the overall image of minorities you're not going to see much change on the police front.  Cops tend to be more aggressive with blacks and Latinos because there's a perception that blacks and Latinos are more aggressive.  Why? Again, actions by these individuals dictate that and of course the media.

[B35 via Church]

My question is.... How exactly do you debunk a fact?

[Turbo19]

 

 

I think I see what your thinking on this. Let me repeat what you are saying:

 

Anyone who has a good mental and emotional grasp on things can practice law.

 

It's obviously demonstrated here in this thread right here in the off topic forum as all of us are participating in a debate over a hot button topic over a very legally and ethically complicated and complex issue at hand here, stating points and presenting them in this thread in a surprisingly similar way and in going along the same lines to what the attorneys are presenting before a judge and jury!

 

The difference between a commonplace person who is a wise and intelligent critical thinker and an established  lawyer is the said credentials you have mentioned. What education the person has. Their accomplishments by means of participation in internships, paid or not, such as judicial clerkships, law clerks positions at well established firms, while in school, as well as the actual experience they have in different areas of legal expertise once they have graduated and are engaged in practice as an established legal attorney.

 

In the past these credentials were what would make the difference in the proceedings towards a final judgement in a case. But lawyers do not yield as much influence and power as they used to have. 

 

In other words, lawyers don't really have as much power and influence in the judicial system as they used to be. If that is what you are saying, that would be quite disturbing to me what is happening here with the legal system and the options civilians have to defend themselves before a court of law. It's no wonder we see cases turn out in a way that is disconcerting to say the least and makes us wonder if there is even any real understanding of the ethics of right and wrong in the said judicial system anymore today.

 

I think that's what I'm getting here from what you are telling me.

 

 

Exacta-mundo my friend. You got it right down to every little detail.

 

I won't elaborate much on this sub-topic we're disscussing, but I think it's blatantly obvious the current judicial system need to be revamped. Part of it has to do with corruption and ethics withing the system and part of it has to do with represenatives (lawyers) whose only benefit over someone else is their damn certificate stating the passed the bar (which contrary to popular belief is easy as f**k to pass in CA or NY). You could have all the credential in the world, but that doesn't mean jack shit if you can't put up a solid front.

 

Moving on before I get riled up....

 

 

lol.... I think your attitude is that the "suspect" is harmless and thus the cop is using excessive force but you only get one chance do something and do it right.  I know I sound pro-cop and let me tell you, I am because you know why? I've worked security in some rough neighborhoods albeit mainly in banks but still rough neighborhoods nevertheless and you can never take anything for granted because if you do it could be your life.  You look at it as, the cop is much bigger than that little guy so automatically the cop is a douchebag.  I look at it as you can't let your guard down for one second out in the streets.  Like I said I understand your point of view, but cops have a damn tough job too and I don't think people realize this until they're out there.  They have a split second to make a decision and if they f*ck it up it could be their life.

 

At the end of the day, yeah they're trained and everything, but they're HUMANS.  We all f*ck up and in the heat of the moment you have a split second to make a quick decision.  Yes you have your a-holes, but I'm not going to demonize all cops because I understand first hand what they have to go through on the street and they sure as hell had my back when I was working out there late at night doing security.   I still say about that video that all we saw was the cop chasing after the guy.  We didn't see the full video, so from the looks of it, we can easily argue that the cop used excessive force... I personally give the cop the benefit of the doubt.

 

Now the one thing in that video that annoyed me was the guy with the hanging pants... I mean WTF did he call himself doing with the damn phone practically in the cop's face trying to be a wise @ss like yeah I'm filming you.  I mean sure he has every right to film but don't be a d*ck about it.  If the cop really was a jerk he would've roughed that kid up too but he didn't do anything, so that suggests to me that we don't have the full story.

Well we've both made it clear that we share different stances on the issue. That's fine, I'm sure we all hold one bias or another. I'm keeping my stance and I'm sure you're doing the same.

 

 

Going on a different tangent again because I can. You saw what Turbo19 said in post #63, correct? You saw the statement he made that anyone can practice law and that the only thing that  sets us professionals of different educational and employment backgrounds apart from attorneys, lawyers, lawmakers, politicians and judges, are their credentials. You have that ability as well as everyone else here who participated in this discussion so far.

 

In other words we all have a sense of justice. It is innate in us. Whether a person is atheistic, or believes in God, the fact remains it is in us, that sense of justice. That sense of justice is relative to our perspective, our aspirations, our experiences and our intelligence.

 

What the difference is this concerning many of us including yourself: Our perspectives and our own sense of justice.

 

So is with many others outside this discussion on this forum. Such as those who are even regular minority law abiding citizens who actually dress professionally who still, do end up harassed by police? Doesn't those people also have a sense of justice? I would imagine many people are frankly very pissed off and quite frankly fearful of the police today for a reason. 

 

I realize you keep on debunking the facts. Fine. So let's go back to the basics on what justice means for us civilians first and start on a clean slate before we continue. You can start first. Describe to me what entails equal rights for all. Tell me.

To be quite honest, I think Via has elaborated enough as it is. No one is going to be able to sway someone elses views like in an instant. But if you both choose we can continue.

 

 

lol... Where am I debunking the facts at?? I've stated that crooked cops DO exist, and that some are overaggressive.

 

I've also stated that you have individuals that provoke cops too... The issue with stop and frisk is what is "suspicious"?  That's not something that one can paint in black or white but rather something that's a judgment call based on experience that cops have in the field.  That's where their intuition comes into play and where they have to be cops and make quick decisions.  Do they screw up? Of course.  We all do, but understand that they have to walk a very fine line to try to ensure that everyone has equal rights.  If you're looking for an easy answer to your question, there isn't one. That's what I've been saying.  Stop & Frisk isn't the SOLE problem with cops.  The problem stems much further than this procedure.

 

If you want TRUE equal rights, I don't think you'll ever get that and a lot of that has to do with the image and perception that minorities have created from their own actions.  You can't just dismiss the fact that blacks and Latinos are incarcerated the most.  No amount of training is going to "fix" things to make things equal because cops can't just do their job based on solely facts.  They MUST use their own intuition to make split decisions and that's where personal experiences come into play in addition to their training.

 

You can however improve the situation over time and you do that with more dialogue between the community and the police so that both sides understand each other. It's not an overnight process that's for sure and until steps are taken to change the overall image of minorities you're not going to see much change on the police front.  Cops tend to be more aggressive with blacks and Latinos because there's a perception that blacks and Latinos are more aggressive.  Why? Again, actions by these individuals dictate that and of course the media.

Now the latter is an entirely different issue, so while it's correlated to the direct issue it really is just malperception between other groups of people.

 

 

My question is.... How exactly do you debunk a fact?

Dude, I wouldn't be lying if I said I'm lost in this discussion right now.

[realizm]

My question is.... How exactly do you debunk a fact?

 

 

Exactly. I deliberately said that to VG8 as a confusion tactic to get him lost like a damn good defense lawyer would use in court against the person testifying on the stand in an attempt to further sway the jury. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well we've both made it clear that we share different stances on the issue. That's fine, I'm sure we all hold one bias or another. I'm keeping my stance and I'm sure you're doing the same.

 

 

To be quite honest, I think Via has elaborated enough as it is. No one is going to be able to sway someone elses views like in an instant. But if you both choose we can continue.

 

 

Now the latter is an entirely different issue, so while it's correlated to the direct issue it really is just malperception between other groups of people.

 

 

Dude, I wouldn't be lying if I said I'm lost in this discussion right now.

But you see that's the point I've been making... What I'm trying to do at this point is to help you understand stop and frisk since you say that it violates people's rights.  If blacks and Latinos were being stopped and frisked AND they were being stopped in areas where blacks and Latinos don't constitute for committing the majority of the crimes then the argument that stop and frisk is racist would have more feet IMO.  It would be a similar situation if Asians had a high stop and frisk percentage in proportion to the percentage of crimes that they commit (which is low)... You could then argue that it's based solely on race.   However, in this case I think one could argue that as CenSin and I stated earlier, the cops are just targeting areas where there is high crime and groups of people that commit the most crime that fit into a profile if you will...

 

Now stop and frisk IS legal on the surface.  If it weren't it would've been struck down in court years ago.  The thing that I question is the accusation that quotas are being required because then that puts in a wrench in the whole procedure.  If that isn't an issue, then you have to examine the idea of "suspicion" which is what stop and frisk is based on to a degree, and that again is based on the cops' own judgement, which one could argue is both objective and subjective.  What is perceived danger can vary from one person to another, but the cop just has to establish the fact that he/she felt that he/she was threatened and if he or she does that then that's that.

[realizm]

But you see that's the point I've been making... What I'm trying to do at this point is to help you understand stop and frisk since you say that it violates people's rights.  If blacks and Latinos were being stopped and frisked AND they were being stopped in areas where blacks and Latinos don't constitute for committing the majority of the crimes then the argument that stop and frisk is racist would have more feet IMO.  It would be a similar situation if Asians had a high stop and frisk percentage in proportion to the percentage of crimes that they commit (which is low)... You could then argue that it's based solely on race.   However, in this case I think one could argue that as CenSin and I stated earlier, the cops are just targeting areas where there is high crime and groups of people that commit the most crime that fit into a profile if you will...

 

OK. I understand the arguments CenSin, Turbo19, B35 via Church, Joe, SoSpectacular, you Via Garibaldi 8 and myself are presenting here. Yes in theory it makes sense that police officers will target areas with high crime. Straightforward common sense. Also it is understood that higher rates of crime occurs in poorer neighborhoods. Indeed we have good police officers and bad police officers alike. And to boot yes we can all see now that we generally have racists or reverse racists in all ethnic groups with issues, respectively. We all came to these conclusions as of this point in this discussion, so IMHO these are moot points now.

 

But now this raises even more questions as the debate gets hotter. In NYC (and throughout the US in general), why is it that more blacks and Latinos are being stopped and frisked then when they make up only 50% or less of the population in NYC? Why is it that by far the higher percentage of the population in the prisons are persons of color? We all have our theories and opinions on this based on our different experiences, backgrounds and social status, etc. I think this needs to be discussed. Even as we may all have different views on this particular I think if we can make this an intelligent talking point, we could all come closer to an understanding and agreement as to how this controversy came about out of a relatively new NYPD crime combating tactic in recent years.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

OK. I understand the arguments CenSin, Turbo19, B35 via Church, Joe, SoSpectacular, you Via Garibaldi 8 and myself are presenting here. Yes in theory it makes sense that police officers will target areas with high crime. Straightforward common sense. Also it is understood that higher rates of crime occurs in poorer neighborhoods. Indeed we have good police officers and bad police officers alike. And to boot yes we can all see now that we generally have racists or reverse racists in all ethnic groups with issues, respectively. We all came to these conclusions as of this point in this discussion, so IMHO these are moot points now.

 

But now this raises even more questions as the debate gets hotter. In NYC (and throughout the US in general), why is it that more blacks and Latinos are being stopped and frisked then when they make up only 50% or less of the population in NYC? Why is it that by far the higher percentage of the population in the prisons are persons of color? We all have our theories and opinions on this based on our different experiences, backgrounds and social status, etc. I think this needs to be discussed. Even as we may all have different views on this particular I think if we can make this an intelligent talking point, we could all come closer to an understanding and agreement as to how this controversy came about out of a relatively new NYPD crime combating tactic in recent years.

Well I think the answer to that is pretty simple... The environment in which these particular blacks and Latinos grow up in facilitates a behavior that says you're supposed to do this this and this, none of which involves getting an education, getting a good paying job and so on.  I've heard that supposedly dark skin black men for example are less likely to be hired even if they are qualified simply because they're seen as dangerous and not smart.  This was something I've also seen on a CNN special. I think it was called "Black In America" or something. In one segment, they show two black guys that were brothers... One was light skinned with more mixed features and the other one was dark skinned with what you could call more black features.  Didn't really resemble each other IMO, but any who, the light skinned guy was the complete opposite of his brother.  He had a good job, never had any problems with the law, etc.  The dark skinned one on the other hand was constantly in jail and could never hold a job.

 

Apparently there's a perception in the job market that dark skinned black men esp. are more threatening physically and so they're usually less likely to get certain jobs, especially managerial jobs.  In my office building, I can literally count the amount of black men I see.  Maybe 3 if that out of a building with tons of companies (and that doesn't include building personnel like the security guards which are for the most part black of course, but again those positions pay peanuts) and when you do see a black guy in the building, he's usually a delivery guy or in some position that pays poorly.  I personally believe there's some truth to this claim as sometimes I do feel as if I've had an advantage if you will being mixed.  In my old job out of an office of about 70 - 80 employees we only had one black guy in entire office and before he came for a while there were no black males in the office at all.  We had a few Latinos but that was it.  The rest were white.  The managers were mainly Irish and Italian (typical in the construction field) and I actually started out temping there but my boss who was also Italian decided to hire and keep me on since he knew I was also Italian.  To be honest with you, I've never really had a problem getting jobs.  At my current job, they had interviewed many candidates and I was told I had the job after the first interview, which I thought was a fluke but they were serious.  Now granted I was qualified, but I do wonder sometimes if I was a dark skinned black guy if I would've been hired as quickly or at all.

 

As for the Latinos, well a lot of it is education in their case.  Some come from really poor homes and endure a cycle that's hard to break.  When you're poor, you aren't exposed to certain things that middle class and upper middle class folks are, let alone wealthy folks and that can keep the cycle going if there's no push to change things.  Blacks and Latinos still perform poorly in school overall compared to whites and Asians here in the city and this is a trend that's environmental and economical as well.  The Asians push their children to achieve and perform.  Whites on the other hand do the same or some reward their children with gifts and such.  Being a mixed kid, I'd say I received a mixture of both... The parents wanted me to do well and pushed me but I also was rather spoiled being an only child and grew up in a middle class family so for the most part I wasn't a brat but if I asked for money for something I usually got it.

 

That's another thing though... When you have money you can fix certain problems... White families for example, if the kid isn't doing that well, the well off families can pay to ensure that the kid gets the best tutor and that I can attest to from experience, as I am hired at $40.00 - $60.00 a session in some cases to provide tutoring when I have availability.  Poor families don't have this advantage and so there's another set back if you will. 

 

There's also a stigma at least in the black community from what I understand that if you're doing well you're a sell out, so that's another issue too.  I'd say it could apply to a degree in the Latino community too but to a lesser extent.  

 

So you have these things going on and it isn't hard to see why blacks and Latinos have high incarceration rates.  Whites and Asians fight amongst each other also, but they stick together when it really boils down to it and help each other out in most cases.  Less so in the other communities...

[SoSpectacular]

Now stop and frisk IS legal on the surface.  If it weren't it would've been struck down in court years ago.  The thing that I question is the accusation that quotas are being required because then that puts in a wrench in the whole procedure.  If that isn't an issue, then you have to examine the idea of "suspicion" which is what stop and frisk is based on to a degree, and that again is based on the cops' own judgement, which one could argue is both objective and subjective.  What is perceived danger can vary from one person to another, but the cop just has to establish the fact that he/she felt that he/she was threatened and if he or she does that then that's that.

 

It's not so much a quota as those are actually illegal but the fact officers are required to perform such tasks and hand out tickets to make it look like they're doing their jobs so higher ups/internal affairs don't come down on them about it

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's not so much a quota as those are actually illegal but the fact officers are required to perform such tasks and hand out tickets to make it look like they're doing their jobs so higher ups/internal affairs don't come down on them about it

Yeah but there are accusations that they actually are told that they need to do a certain amount of stop and frisks, which is indirectly a quota though, of course these things are said off of the record.... Of course it's illegal because then that would mean that people are being stopped and frisked simply to fill the quotas and not so much because they were considered suspicious...