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46Dover

Second Ave Subway vs M15 SBS

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When the Second Ave Subway is finally up and running and if the M15 has the full capabilities of SBS (including changing stoplights) what would be the better way to go?

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So the SBS will just be a supplementary service then?

It's like the M101 vs the (4)(5)... Not everyone can use the subway and the M15 serves a large senior and disabled population.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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The Second Avenue Subway will NEVER be fully completed.  When construction started up again in 2007, the (Q) train extension to 96th Street was originally supposed to be completed at the end of last year, but instead it's going to take at least 4 more years, if it ever finishes.  The MTA will also most likely use the M15 SBS as an excuse not to extend the subway further than 96th Street.

 

Now hypothetically if both are running (with the traffic prioritization on the M15), both will be used because both have different stops:

 

South Ferry - M15

Hanover Square (Old Slip) - (T)

Fulton St - M15 (T)

Chatham Sq (Worth St) - (T)

Madison St/Catherine St - M15

Grand St - M15 (T) +++ M15 stops on Allen St, (T) stops on Chrystie St, a few blocks apart

Houston St - M15 (T)

14th St - M15 (T)

23rd St - M15 (T) +++ Northbound M15 stops at 25th St, not 23rd

28th St - M15

34th St - M15 (T)

42nd St - M15 (T) +++ Northbound M15 stops at 44th St, not 42nd

50th St - M15

55th St - (T)

57th St - M15

68th St - M15

72nd St - (Q)(T)

79th St - M15

86th St - M15 (Q)(T) +++ Southbound M15 stops at 88th St, not 86th (will be moved once construction is finished)

96th St - M15 (Q)(T) +++ Northbound M15 stops between 97th-98th, not 96th

106th St - M15 (Q)(T)

116th St - M15 (Q)(T) +++ Southbound M15 stops at 114th St, not 116th St

125th St - M15 (Q)(T) +++ Q/T stop at Lexington Av, M15 stops at 1st/2nd Av

 

As you can see, the stops aren't always the same.  The southbound M15 will surely see a decline in service, but the northbound won't see much of a drop.  Traffic is always light on 1st Avenue (unless there's an accident or something on the FDR), and buses can do 35mph+ usually.

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I like how you said that Gorgor. Made it sound like it'll never be done in our lifetime lol

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It's like the M101 vs the (4)(5)... Not everyone can use the subway and the M15 serves a large senior and disabled population.

 

This is especially important for the M15 because there are so many hospitals and medical centers on 1st and second ave. Those people will stick to the bus even with the (T)

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Always assume that if you're going longer distances (like 125 to 23), take the subway.

 

If you're going a shorter distance, or if your station isn't anywhere close to where you need to go, take the M15.

Edited by RookiePhenom

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Have more confidence Gorgor. Yes because of politics/money etc. construction projects in NYC for last 30-40 years take forever. The SAS (Q) extension to 96th, will open trust me by end of decade. Too much invested not to finish.

 

With that said, I do agree that a full SAS of the so called (T) line between 125th/Park and South Ferry may not be done in our lifetime. Especially I am already

40 years of age lol and only have at most 45-50 years left of being a sane man lol.

 

I've heard about the SAS my entire life and have seen construction going on all the time since 2007.  There have been countless disruptions and delays, and as of now the expected completion date is 6 years after the original projected date.  When it started up again in 2007 it was only supposed to take 5 years to complete, but now it's on track to take 10 years, and most likely longer than that.  I definitely believe that the (Q) extention to 96th Street will be completed in the next 15 years, but as of now there are no plans nor money to continue.

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First of all, had it not been for the Depression, it WOULD exist and this conversation wouldn't even be happening  Cut the (MTA) some slack. At least it's going somewhere this time.

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I've heard about the SAS my entire life and have seen construction going on all the time since 2007.  There have been countless disruptions and delays, and as of now the expected completion date is 6 years after the original projected date.  When it started up again in 2007 it was only supposed to take 5 years to complete, but now it's on track to take 10 years, and most likely longer than that.  I definitely believe that the (Q) extention to 96th Street will be completed in the next 15 years, but as of now there are no plans nor money to continue.

 

I'm pretty sure they have some funding for Phase II. Keep in mind that much of Phase II was already completed in the 70s. (What is it, like 110th - 120th Street, and then 100th-105th Street or something like that?)

 

With the 63rd-96th Street portion, they actually finished the tunnel entirely, so now they have to add the stations, entrances, etc. But the primary work is done.

 

South of 63rd, well, what can I say?

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My question to you all, is, would you rather have the SBS done up to Phase II in your lifetime, or try to go to Hanover Square?

 

Portions of Phase II already exist, so go to Phase II, and worry about Phase III and Phase IV later...

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First of all, had it not been for the Depression, it WOULD exist and this conversation wouldn't even be happening  Cut the (MTA) some slack. At least it's going somewhere this time.

 

Cut them some slack?  The Depression was over 80 years ago, what kind of argument is that?

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The argument is that we would have had a 4 tracked, full trunk line SBS, rather than this pseudo-express we now are supposed to settle for. It's actually a good argument, considering that there's a lot more that goes into constructing a subway line than people give credit for. So yes, while there is some reason to be upset, we should remember this and not blow our fuses over the misteps of history.

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Cut them some slack?  The Depression was over 80 years ago, what kind of argument is that?

Maybe things have changed? As the dollar gets less and less valuable, things cost more and more. Not to mention labor and safety regulations that make quick, cheap subway construction illegal. Politics and people have more of a voice nowadays too. Things aren't as easy to get done as they were 80 years ago.

 

Basically, had that not happened, this subway, and most of the 2nd system, would have been completed while it was cheap and easy.

 

And thus, this statement would not exist.

Edited by LTA1992

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They were able to build the tunnel under 63rd Street to 57th/6th for the (F) in the 90s.

They're almost done with the (7) extention to the Javits Center, which started after the SAS construction started

East Side Access for the LIRR is almost done and started after the SAS construction started

 

I don't understand your argument at all.

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The (7) Extension is about a mile and has taken, to date, over 5 years. By the time it opens, it will be 6 and a half. The 63rd Street line began construction in 1969. It opened in 1989. Just about 20 years. The original portion of the 8th Avenue Line took 7 years between the beginning of construction and opening. Most of the original IND was completed by 1953. 21 years after the original line was completed. 28 overall. That's one year for each of the original IRT subway line stations. Subway construction before the IND was even faster. But it was cheaper and labor laws were extremely lax. In fact, the entire original IRT subway was completed in 8 years. though this includes elevated as well. East side access is scheduled to open in 2019. 12 years after construction started.

 

My point is, these routes are extremely short (Not counting ESA) and are taking forever to complete, but they are getting done. That is why you should cut them some slack. Slowly is the way to go these days because the dollar is nothing but a shriveled up shadow of its former self. Had its value never dropped, I could only imagine the projects that would be in progress right now. Or the many that could have been completed.

 

You do make it seem like the SAS will never be completed. It may take 70 years, but it may get done.

Edited by LTA1992
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Have more confidence Gorgor. Yes because of politics/money etc. construction projects in NYC for last 30-40 years take forever. The SAS (Q) extension to 96th, will open trust me by end of decade. Too much invested not to finish.

 

With that said, I do agree that a full SAS of the so called (T) line between 125th/Park and South Ferry may not be done in our lifetime. Especially I am already 40 years of age lol and only have at most 45-50 years left of being a sane man lol.

 

Damn, we're getting old lol.

 

Yeah I would imagine that phase 1 will be completed on time during this decade and phase 2 would be completed before 2050 at the most. The scene of the world is changing all of the time, as you said, and at least with President Obama's directive to focus on rail transportation there's a good possibility that seeing the (Q) hit the roadbed to 125th may become a reality, soon. Give it about 15-20 years 30 years from when phase 1 is open. I'm sure the demand will be there as phase 1 alone will not alleviate completely the congestion along Lexington Ave. Everybody knows that.

 

If they already planned for spurs to be built in for expansion into the Bronx as part of the second phase of 2nd Ave subway's designs in it's tentative construction to take place then that would mean that the capital construction commitee does have the intentions of expanding the SAS in due time. After all some of the sections of the SAS along 120th Street to 117 Street, 114 Street to 109th Street, and 106th Street to 101st Street already has been built and is in pristine condition. That section all and all is to be constructed in it's entirety by cut and cover to 125th St. So it may happen after the QBL CBTC project.

 

I predict the preliminary engineering studies for phase 2 may start sometime after the grand CBTC project on the IND QBL and the LIRR project comes to a finish. Then the bids will be proposed for the start of construction.

 

Maybe.

Edited by realizm

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I feel SAS should not be completed south of 34th, as there is not much demand. The only demanding area there is the lower-east-side which SAS will slightly bypass. Bus is plenty sufficient south of 34th, and is much cheaper than a new subway. My plan would be:

(T) 125th-Lex to 34th-2nd Av

(Q) 125th-Lex to Coney Island

 

Possibly, SAS could be extended to Grand Street where a West 4th style connection could be made to the bridge, and a lower level of Grand as a terminal. When SAS is completed with ADA accessibility M15 SBS will experience much less ridership, possibly creating lower frequencies of the M15 SBS. Of course these two will coexist, although one could say the Second Ave Subway is a double edged sword, as it can determine the fate of the M15 Select.

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I feel SAS should not be completed south of 34th, as there is not much demand. The only demanding area there is the lower-east-side which SAS will slightly bypass. Bus is plenty sufficient south of 34th, and is much cheaper than a new subway. My plan would be:

 

(T) 125th-Lex to 34th-2nd Av

(Q) 125th-Lex to Coney Island

 

Possibly, SAS could be extended to Grand Street where a West 4th style connection could be made to the bridge, and a lower level of Grand as a terminal. When SAS is completed with ADA accessibility M15 SBS will experience much less ridership, possibly creating lower frequencies of the M15 SBS. Of course these two will coexist, although one could say the Second Ave Subway is a double edged sword, as it can determine the fate of the M15 Select.

 

I think that the Nassau Street connection option would be the perfect solution as opposed to a straight TBM tunnel through to the South St Seaport as currently considered as the phase 4 option that will happen in an estimated thousand years once we have flying cars. The Nassau Street line has lots of room to handle additional capacity from the (T). 4 tracks on the Nassau St line is plenty. As currently the (R) is the only line utilizing the Montauge St tunnel during peak and midday hours ( (N) late nights of course), this should work. They did have (N) and (R) AND ( M ) utilize the tunnel simuntaneously before so it can work. Instead of blowing another 7 billion plus inflation costs added in to send a TBM to tunnel through.

 

You may have a point that I may be overlooking, please clarify if I am missing the mark with your points, but I'm seeing that even along the Lex on the Laffayette St portion, oh yeah, a supplemental line is desperately needed. 42St-Grand Central and 14th St Union Sqaure on the (4)(5)(6) in particular are so packed and heavily trafficed with straphangers I'm suprised we dont have passengers falling over the platforms like lemmings over a cliff! lol, that was really corny I know but you get the idea.

 

In all seriousness, yeah a supplemental line south of 34th is needed because of the aformentioned reasons and I would say that the capital construction comittee should take the Nassau St connection into consideration which I'm sure they are. In fact I can almost gurarantee you that's exactly what will happen. With (T) trains terminating @ Chambers or going all the way to the BMT South BK division. No foamerizm there, it just makes so much sense! Using existing infrastructure will slash costs avoiding another purchase of a astronomically expensive TBM and docking area built for it, along with aquisition of property for drilling and construction of new stations.

 

It's understood that a TBM will be needed to drill through from 63rd St to around the area of Essex St.

Edited by realizm
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Maybe things have changed? As the dollar gets less and less valuable, things cost more and more. Not to mention labor and safety regulations that make quick, cheap subway construction illegal. Politics and people have more of a voice nowadays too. Things aren't as easy to get done as they were 80 years ago.

 

Basically, had that not happened, this subway, and most of the 2nd system, would have been completed while it was cheap and easy.

 

And thus, this statement would not exist.

 

Yep. In fact, subway construction may have been made harder in the time since the 70's, mostly because of the Wilshire Subway.

 

For those who are unaware: when rail was being considered for LA in the 1980s, the Red Line was proposed to eventually extend to Santa Monica down the length of Wilshire Blvd. However, a methane gas explosion in the area in 1985 was a rallying cry for NIMBYs, and they were devoted enough to get a Representative to pass federal legislation banning all tunneling in his area. It's plausible that this is not the only thing that was done - SAS has property takings for massive ventilation structures, even though they're not inherently necessary for deep-bore subway systems (See: London Underground)

 

They were able to build the tunnel under 63rd Street to 57th/6th for the (F) in the 90s.

They're almost done with the (7) extention to the Javits Center, which started after the SAS construction started

East Side Access for the LIRR is almost done and started after the SAS construction started

 

I don't understand your argument at all.

 

63rd St had three new stations, two of which had horrible design issues (lack of a transfer to any station at Lexington, and stopping at Queensbridge as a terminus instead of a station connecting to other LIC services).

 

The (7) extension is only "on time" and "under budget" because Bloomberg didn't feel like ponying up the extra dough for that, and it's his pet project - he's pushing as hard as he can for completion before the end of his term.

 

ESA is literally a giant sunken hole in the ground and two tunnels, and the entire project will be the most expensive transit project in recorded history, coming in at over $4B per km.

 

As noted before, SAS is also being designed with giant ventilation buildings on the most expensive real estate in the country, which is probably due to either federal regulations, the fact that MTA's engineering company and contractor are the same company (which increases incentives to overdesign and make more $$$), the various lawsuits that pretentious UES people have filed over petty things (like a subway entrance facing a garage entrance), and other factors.

 

The (7) Extension is about a mile and has taken, to date, over 5 years. By the time it opens, it will be 6 and a half. The 63rd Street line began construction in 1969. It opened in 1989. Just about 20 years. The original portion of the 8th Avenue Line took 7 years between the beginning of construction and opening. Most of the original IND was completed by 1953. 21 years after the original line was completed. 28 overall. That's one year for each of the original IRT subway line stations. Subway construction before the IND was even faster. But it was cheaper and labor laws were extremely lax. In fact, the entire original IRT subway was completed in 8 years. though this includes elevated as well. East side access is scheduled to open in 2019. 12 years after construction started.

 

My point is, these routes are extremely short (Not counting ESA) and are taking forever to complete, but they are getting done. That is why you should cut them some slack. Slowly is the way to go these days because the dollar is nothing but a shriveled up shadow of its former self. Had its value never dropped, I could only imagine the projects that would be in progress right now. Or the many that could have been completed.

 

You do make it seem like the SAS will never be completed. It may take 70 years, but it may get done.

 

Really, all of this comes down to the MTA and its shitty cost control. No other city would consider doing subway extensions if they cost more than $1B/km - London's Crossrail does this, but it links mainline railroads and heads through the center of London, tunneling through clay, water, burial grounds, and what have you. Paris is literally built on top of a graveyard made of skulls, but it builds tunnels at only $230M/km.

 

If MTA could make its money go further by removing conflicts of interest in its procurement process, abandon the taking of so much expensive real estate, and drop the obsession with full-length mezzanines through Manhattan's bedrock, then we wouldn't have such a huge problem. It's stupid that the 34th St station on the (7) will have not one, but two full-length mezzanines - a lower one and an upper one, connected by inclined elevators.

 

I feel SAS should not be completed south of 34th, as there is not much demand. The only demanding area there is the lower-east-side which SAS will slightly bypass. Bus is plenty sufficient south of 34th, and is much cheaper than a new subway. My plan would be:

 

(T) 125th-Lex to 34th-2nd Av

(Q) 125th-Lex to Coney Island

 

Possibly, SAS could be extended to Grand Street where a West 4th style connection could be made to the bridge, and a lower level of Grand as a terminal. When SAS is completed with ADA accessibility M15 SBS will experience much less ridership, possibly creating lower frequencies of the M15 SBS. Of course these two will coexist, although one could say the Second Ave Subway is a double edged sword, as it can determine the fate of the M15 Select.

 

Phases III and IV will become necessary once East Side Access opens and LIRR customers heading to Wall Street get dumped onto the (4) and (5).

 

SAS will be completely ADA-accessible, so some customers currently restricted to buses may opt to take SAS instead. In addition, SAS could probably be rerouted to serve the LES, which, even after SAS, will still lack any decent subway connections for such a transit-dependent area.

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