PAth/nyc subway free transfer?

[Mtatransit]

Should PATH and nyc subway have a free transfer, I think it should.

[FamousNYLover]

I don't think it will happen because PANY&NJ and MTA are different agency.

PATH trains are $2.25 and subway/buses are $2.50.

[Minato ku]

New York City would need a regional metropolitan transit authority that cover most of NYC MSA  but because the metropolitan is divided in two States, I don't think this could happen.

[Threxx]

Should PATH and nyc subway have a free transfer, I think it should.

 

1. PATH is a seperate agency, similar to how there is no free transfer between Subway and LIRR. Despite them both using the MetroCard, they remain seperate.

2. Fares. PATH is $2.00 (or $2.25, I forget) and NYCT is $2.50. The coordination would be a pain.

[MichalkaManiac]

I don't think it will happen because PANY&NJ and MTA are different agency.

PATH trains are $2.25 and subway/buses are $2.50.

  

1. PATH is a seperate agency, similar to how there is no free transfer between Subway and LIRR. Despite them both using the MetroCard, they remain seperate.

2. Fares. PATH is $2.00 (or $2.25, I forget) and NYCT is $2.50. The coordination would be a pain.

It's $2.25 now, for PATH fares. But I believe by October 1 of this year, it's expected to increase by a quarter again, to NYCT's current fare of $2.50.

[brokecrazy]

Off topic, but certain cards in London and Paris allow rail travel in the respected transit pass. (ex. use of railroads in the city limits).

The fares there are more expensive though.  That would be related  to the  city ticket in some respect I suppose.

[RTOPRO]

Swiping into one system and then transferring to the other system for free means the system you are transferring to has you riding for free without the cost of you riding being covered.

[Roadcruiser1]

Not going to happen. The agencies that run PATH and the NYC Subway are completely different. vs the Port Authority of NY and NJ.

[BreeddekalbL]

but doesn't the current path fare collection accept metrocards? i know it came about after i left nyc

[itmaybeokay]

but doesn't the current path fare collection accept metrocards? i know it came about after i left nyc

 

Yes. You can use metrocards in PATH turnstyles that were purchased in MTA stations provided they are pay-per-ride. Unlimited Metrocards bought in PATH stations don't work on the subway, and vice-versa. 

 

Free transfers don't really make sense. One swipe of your metrocard gets you anywhere within the city. If you want to go to long island, you have to pay an LIRR fare. If you want to go to jersey, you have to pay a path fare. 

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Yes. You can use metrocards in PATH turnstyles that were purchased in MTA stations provided they are pay-per-ride. Unlimited Metrocards bought in PATH stations don't work on the subway, and vice-versa. 

 

Free transfers don't really make sense. One swipe of your metrocard gets you anywhere within the city. If you want to go to long island, you have to pay an LIRR fare. If you want to go to jersey, you have to pay a path fare. 

PATH doesn't offer unlimited MetroCards. They have their own "smart card" called SmartLink. They just accept and sell pay-per-ride MetroCards, or a MetroCard with a prepaid balance on them.

[Brooklyn]

Should PATH and nyc subway have a free transfer, I think it should.

I agree....

 

But I think this boils down to management, money and politics. I would love to be able to go to NJ without paying an additional 4.50 on top of the 5 dollars (or unlimited) that I use here in the city.

 

But I am sure PATH would want a way to recoup their money. I would also imagine PATH usage would shoot up as well. There would probably have to be additional money for operations too.

 

I would also predict that many more people would move to NJ as well. To be honest with you, if a free transfer were allowed, I could see myself moving out there (not that I would, but it wouldn't be off the table).

 

I would also imagine that some NJ communities would probably see real estate values increase as well.

 

Many of those cities served by PATH (Jersey City, Hoboken, etc) would become de facto outer boroughs  of NYC.

[Roadcruiser1]

I agree....

 

But I think this boils down to management, money and politics. I would love to be able to go to NJ without paying an additional 4.50 on top of the 5 dollars (or unlimited) that I use here in the city.

 

But I am sure PATH would want a way to recoup their money. I would also imagine PATH usage would shoot up as well. There would probably have to be additional money for operations too.

 

I would also predict that many more people would move to NJ as well. To be honest with you, if a free transfer were allowed, I could see myself moving out there (not that I would, but it wouldn't be off the table).

 

I would also imagine that some NJ communities would probably see real estate values increase as well.

 

Many of those cities served by PATH (Jersey City, Hoboken, etc) would become de facto outer boroughs  of NYC.

 

This sounds as radical as Bloomberg's plan to extend the Line to Secaucus.

[Turbo19]

I wouldn't see it happening unless the two different agencies reach a contractual agreement regarding fare collection.

 

Now if at the very least, if both MTA and PATH in the future choose to share the same fare media, such transfers would become easier.

[itmaybeokay]

PATH doesn't offer unlimited MetroCards. They have their own "smart card" called SmartLink. They just accept and sell pay-per-ride MetroCards, or a MetroCard with a prepaid balance on them.

 

You're right, my mistake. I forgot they used a different media for the unlimiteds. The moral of the story is that MTA unlimited-ride cards don't work on PATH. 

 

I wouldn't see it happening unless the two different agencies reach a contractual agreement regarding fare collection.

 

Now if at the very least, if both MTA and PATH in the future choose to share the same fare media, such transfers would become easier.

 

This is already a thing. PATH does accept metrocards, but only pay-per-ride cards. Yes, if you want unlimited rides you have to have another card, but the smartlink card PATH gives you when you buy unlimited rides is a touchless RFID card. You can keep it in the back of your wallet and just touch the sensor, so having an additional fare media is not a huge deal. 

 

...I would also predict that many more people would move to NJ as well. To be honest with you, if a free transfer were allowed, I could see myself moving out there (not that I would, but it wouldn't be off the table).

 

I would also imagine that some NJ communities would probably see real estate values increase as well.

 

Many of those cities served by PATH (Jersey City, Hoboken, etc) would become de facto outer boroughs  of NYC.

 

I mean the unlimited ride PATH smartlink card is a whopping $73 for 30 days. If I moved to Jersey I'd save more than that on income taxes alone, never mind how much cheaper my rent and other costs of living would be. 

 

I don't think the lack of a free transfer is holding back development of the Jersey-side suburbs of NYC. 

[lirr42]

Maybe the direction the agencies should move in is developing some sort of CityPass that would be valid on all subways, busses, express busses, commuter railroads within the city limits, AirTrain JFK, and PATH and can be sold in 1, 7, 14, or 30 day increments (so it would be attractive for both tourists and commuters). It would be a little more than the most expensive ticket (so like $20 more than a MNR Zone 2 monthly or LIRR Zone 3 monthly). That way it can become very useful to people who live within the city and travel on many different modes to get to their destination.

 

And since all agencies accept the Metro-Card, base it off that technology and you're all set to go.

[Brooklyn]

Maybe the direction the agencies should move in is developing some sort of CityPass that would be valid on all subways, busses, express busses, commuter railroads within the city limits, AirTrain JFK, and PATH and can be sold in 1, 7, 14, or 30 day increments (so it would be attractive for both tourists and commuters). It would be a little more than the most expensive ticket (so like $20 more than a MNR Zone 2 monthly or LIRR Zone 3 monthly). That way it can become very useful to people who live within the city and travel on many different modes to get to their destination.

 

And since all agencies accept the Metro-Card, base it off that technology and you're all set to go.

I actually like that idea....

[bobtehpanda]

I agree....

 

But I think this boils down to management, money and politics. I would love to be able to go to NJ without paying an additional 4.50 on top of the 5 dollars (or unlimited) that I use here in the city.

 

But I am sure PATH would want a way to recoup their money. I would also imagine PATH usage would shoot up as well. There would probably have to be additional money for operations too.

 

I would also predict that many more people would move to NJ as well. To be honest with you, if a free transfer were allowed, I could see myself moving out there (not that I would, but it wouldn't be off the table).

 

I would also imagine that some NJ communities would probably see real estate values increase as well.

 

Many of those cities served by PATH (Jersey City, Hoboken, etc) would become de facto outer boroughs  of NYC.

 

This is wildly overestimated, not least because PATH is pretty much at capacity, or very close to hitting capacity, and it doesn't even have a free transfer yet.

 

Maybe the direction the agencies should move in is developing some sort of CityPass that would be valid on all subways, busses, express busses, commuter railroads within the city limits, AirTrain JFK, and PATH and can be sold in 1, 7, 14, or 30 day increments (so it would be attractive for both tourists and commuters). It would be a little more than the most expensive ticket (so like $20 more than a MNR Zone 2 monthly or LIRR Zone 3 monthly). That way it can become very useful to people who live within the city and travel on many different modes to get to their destination.

 

And since all agencies accept the Metro-Card, base it off that technology and you're all set to go.

 

The main complication with this is that you'd need to seriously rejig the farecard system. You'd need to revamp the 30-day Metrocard and the reloadable unlimited passes, since at the very least LIRR relies on spot-checking paper tickets that are valid for calendar months, not set time periods. And this complexity is intra-agency - imagine what happens when you throw other agencies in there.

[theaveragejoe]

This will never happen as MTA and PANYNJ can not afford this!

[Orion VII 4 Life]

You guys are really out of your minds. The Port Authority does NOT want to have an unlimited card where you pay for 1 plan and it works on both PATH/AirTrain and the MTA, and the MTA ESPECIALLY doesn't want to have the LIRR included on a card like that. The LIRR is basically a "premium" subway in the parts of the city it serves, it charges more than the subway now and will continue to charge more. If people want to take the LIRR instead of the train, let them pay.

 

As for AirTrain, remember that Port gets no taxpayer funding period, so it has to finance AirTrain from its fares and revenues it generates at the tollbooths, from airlines leasing space/time at the airports, and so on. The fare is higher than the subway now and is gonna stay that way, so they definitely won't want a subway unlimited card accepted on it and lose fare revenue. And PATH, along with not having taxpayer funding, serves a completely different clientele than the MTA. Port only accepts MetroCard there because a relatively high amount of non-regular, once-in-a-while riders use it instead of SmartLink, like NICE and Bee-Line the MTA gets a cut every time a Metro is used so if it were up to Port and so many customers didn't use it there would be no MetroCard on PATH. They definitely don't want to get involved with another venture where the MTA gets money from their customers.

[RtrainBlues]

PATH chooses to accept the MTA pay-per-ride metrocard, but to reject the MTA unlimited Metrocard if you insert it into their turnstile.  That's PATH's decision.  They could easily accept the MTA unlimited Metrocard if they wanted to, but obviously they don't want to. 

[Orion VII 4 Life]

PATH chooses to accept the MTA pay-per-ride metrocard, but to reject the MTA unlimited Metrocard if you insert it into their turnstile.  That's PATH's decision.  They could easily accept the MTA unlimited Metrocard if they wanted to, but obviously they don't want to. 

They do technically, if it has a prepaid balance on it. PATH doesn't want to accept the unlimited because much of the revenue from accepting that would be going into the MTA's pocket.

[TomG]

      MTA Transit, I also have thought about a free transfer between PATH and the NYC Subway and I have looked into the economics of it.  The plan I thought about would have free transfers between PATH and NYCT and would also increase the PATH fare to that of NYCT.  Currently that would mean the base fare for PATH and NYCT’s subways and buses would be $2.50, but it would also involve increases of PATH’s unlimited passes and other discounts to equal those of NYCT and adjustments so that all PATH fare options are compatible with NYCT fares options.  Under this system it is actually possible for PATH fare revenues to increase and to even increase by an amount greater than the reduction in fare revenues to NYCT.  That is it is possible for the proposal to pay for itself.  It all depends on the percentage of PATH riders using PATH stations in Manhattan who also use NYCT services to complete their ride.

      For example based upon a current fare of $2.25 for PATH and a fare of $2.50 for NYCT and based on the information I have found if the percentage of riders who use one of the six PATH stations in Manhattan and who also use NYCT as part of their trip is approximately 22.8% then PATH would lose $17,827,981 per year due to the free transfer, but would gain $17,853,513 per year due to the 25 cent increase in the fare.  PATH would actually gain $25,532 per year in fare revenue. 

      Further if the percentage of riders who use one of the six PATH stations in Manhattan and who also use NYCT to complete their trip is approximately 11.4% then PATH would lose $8,913,001 per year due to the free transfer, but would gain $18,843,956 per year due to the 25 cent increase in the fare for a net gain of $9,930,955.  Under these conditions NYCT would lose $9,904,434 due to the free transfer, but this lose is $26,521 less than the net gain of $9,930,955 for PATH, so it would be possible under these conditions for the two agencies to enter into a contract with PATH covering its reduction in fare revenues due to the free transfer and then compensating NYCT for its reduction in fare revenues. 

      I also looked at the economics of this plan under other conditions.  For, example if 50% of the riders using one of the six PATH stations in Manhattan also use NYCT as part of their trip then the reduction in fare revenue for PATH due to the free transfer would be $39,096,450, the reduction in fare revenue for NYCT due to the free transfer would be $43,440,500 while the gain to PATH due to the 25 cent increase in its fare would be $15,490,350 for a combined net reduction in fare revenue of $67,046,600.

      Where would that money come from?  First it is important to remember that while this reduction in revenue is a “cost” to the agencies it is not a cost to the economy as one group of riders would gain the $67,046,600.  This is really a transfer from whoever would pay for this reduction in revenue to riders who would only have to pay one fare for a transfer.  Also, while PATH and NYCT are separate agencies the boards that ultimately control these agencies are appointed by either the New York State government, in the case of NYCT or the New York State government and the New Jersey State government in the case of PATH.  So, it seems to me that if the two governments and in particular the two governors are willing to reach an agreement then an agreement allowing free transfers with some sharing of the reduction in revenue between the two states could be reached. 

      The reduction in revenue referred to above ($67,046,600 per year) may seem large, but it is not that large relative to the current cost of operating mass transit in the New York City area.  The 2013 operating budget for MTA is $13,200,000,000 and NJTransit expenses for 2013 is $1,904,000,000, which summed together equals $15,104,000,000.  The above mentioned $67,046,600 net reduction in fare revenues is only 0.44% of $15,104,000,000.  That is the amount lost due to this transfer plan when one out of two PATH riders who use Manhattan PATH also use NYCT services is less than one-half of one percent of the sum of MTA’s 2013 operating budget and NJTransit’s 2013 Expenses.  Another way of looking at this is that the subway’s 2012 ridership was 1,654,582,265.  An increase in the subway fare of 5 cents, from $2.50 to $2.55 would more than pay for the net reduction in fare revenues of $67,046,600.

      Going even further and taking the extreme case where 100% of the riders who use PATH stations in Manhattan also use NYCT services as part of their trip we would have the situation where the reduction in fare revenue for PATH due to the free transfer would be $78,192,900, the reduction in fare revenue for NYCT due to the free transfer would be $86,881,000 while the gain to PATH due to the 25 cent increase in its fare would be $11,146,300 for a combined net reduction in fare revenue of $153,927,600, which would be approximately 1% of $15,104,000,000.

      The above calculations are based on all riders who use both PATH and NYCT services paying the base fare for each system.  That is paying $2.25 to ride PATH and $2.50 to ride NYCT, but both systems have a number of discounts so it appears to me that the average rider pays less than $2.25 for PATH and less than $2.50 for NYCT.  Because of this I feel the actual loss of revenue due to free transfers would be less than what I calculated.

      While free transfers between PATH and the subway could be done with Fare Cards, they could also be done with direct physical connections between the fare paid zones of some Manhattan PATH stations and some subway stations.  These free transfer points could be at PATH’s World Trade Center station to the 2, 3, A, C, E, R and in the future to the 1 subway routes; at PATH’s 14^th Street station to the 1, 2, 3, F, L and M subway routes and at PATH’s 33^rd Street station to the B, C, F, M, N, Q and R subway routes.  An additional free transfer could be between PATH’s Ninth Street station and the subway’s West Fourth Street station.

      Ridership data used in this post are based on data found in the following links: NJTransit’s “Quarterly Ridership Trends Analysis,” page 5; “MTA information;” “Subway Ridership at a Glance” and “NJTransit Facts at a Glance,” page 2.

      Tom,

 

 

[TomG]

      MTA Transit, I also have thought about a free transfer between PATH and the NYC Subway and I have looked into the economics of it.  The plan I thought about would have free transfers between PATH and NYCT and would also increase the PATH fare to that of NYCT.  Currently that would mean the base fare for PATH and NYCT’s subways and buses would be $2.50, but it would also involve increases of PATH’s unlimited passes and other discounts to equal those of NYCT and adjustments so that all PATH fare options are compatible with NYCT fares options.  Under this system it is actually possible for PATH fare revenues to increase and to even increase by an amount greater than the reduction in fare revenues to NYCT.  That is it is possible for the proposal to pay for itself.  It all depends on the percentage of PATH riders using PATH stations in Manhattan who also use NYCT services to complete their ride.

      For example based upon a current fare of $2.25 for PATH and a fare of $2.50 for NYCT and based on the information I have found if the percentage of riders who use one of the six PATH stations in Manhattan and who also use NYCT as part of their trip is approximately 22.8% then PATH would lose $17,827,981 per year due to the free transfer, but would gain $17,853,513 per year due to the 25 cent increase in the fare.  PATH would actually gain $25,532 per year in fare revenue. 

      Further if the percentage of riders who use one of the six PATH stations in Manhattan and who also use NYCT to complete their trip is approximately 11.4% then PATH would lose $8,913,001 per year due to the free transfer, but would gain $18,843,956 per year due to the 25 cent increase in the fare for a net gain of $9,930,955.  Under these conditions NYCT would lose $9,904,434 due to the free transfer, but this lose is $26,521 less than the net gain of $9,930,955 for PATH, so it would be possible under these conditions for the two agencies to enter into a contract with PATH covering its reduction in fare revenues due to the free transfer and then compensating NYCT for its reduction in fare revenues. 

      I also looked at the economics of this plan under other conditions.  For, example if 50% of the riders using one of the six PATH stations in Manhattan also use NYCT as part of their trip then the reduction in fare revenue for PATH due to the free transfer would be $39,096,450, the reduction in fare revenue for NYCT due to the free transfer would be $43,440,500 while the gain to PATH due to the 25 cent increase in its fare would be $15,490,350 for a combined net reduction in fare revenue of $67,046,600.

      Where would that money come from?  First it is important to remember that while this reduction in revenue is a “cost” to the agencies it is not a cost to the economy as one group of riders would gain the $67,046,600.  This is really a transfer from whoever would pay for this reduction in revenue to riders who would only have to pay one fare for a transfer.  Also, while PATH and NYCT are separate agencies the boards that ultimately control these agencies are appointed by either the New York State government, in the case of NYCT or the New York State government and the New Jersey State government in the case of PATH.  So, it seems to me that if the two governments and in particular the two governors are willing to reach an agreement then an agreement allowing free transfers with some sharing of the reduction in revenue between the two states could be reached. 

      The reduction in revenue referred to above ($67,046,600 per year) may seem large, but it is not that large relative to the current cost of operating mass transit in the New York City area.  The 2013 operating budget for MTA is $13,200,000,000 and NJTransit expenses for 2013 is $1,904,000,000, which summed together equals $15,104,000,000.  The above mentioned $67,046,600 net reduction in fare revenues is only 0.44% of $15,104,000,000.  That is the amount lost due to this transfer plan when one out of two PATH riders who use Manhattan PATH also use NYCT services is less than one-half of one percent of the sum of MTA’s 2013 operating budget and NJTransit’s 2013 Expenses.  Another way of looking at this is that the subway’s 2012 ridership was 1,654,582,265.  An increase in the subway fare of 5 cents, from $2.50 to $2.55 would more than pay for the net reduction in fare revenues of $67,046,600.

      Going even further and taking the extreme case where 100% of the riders who use PATH stations in Manhattan also use NYCT services as part of their trip we would have the situation where the reduction in fare revenue for PATH due to the free transfer would be $78,192,900, the reduction in fare revenue for NYCT due to the free transfer would be $86,881,000 while the gain to PATH due to the 25 cent increase in its fare would be $11,146,300 for a combined net reduction in fare revenue of $153,927,600, which would be approximately 1% of $15,104,000,000.

      The above calculations are based on all riders who use both PATH and NYCT services paying the base fare for each system.  That is paying $2.25 to ride PATH and $2.50 to ride NYCT, but both systems have a number of discounts so it appears to me that the average rider pays less than $2.25 for PATH and less than $2.50 for NYCT.  Because of this I feel the actual loss of revenue due to free transfers would be less than what I calculated.

      While free transfers between PATH and the subway could be done with Fare Cards, they could also be done with direct physical connections between the fare paid zones of some Manhattan PATH stations and some subway stations.  These free transfer points could be at PATH’s World Trade Center station to the 2, 3, A, C, E, R and in the future to the 1 subway routes; at PATH’s 14^th Street station to the 1, 2, 3, F, L and M subway routes and at PATH’s 33^rd Street station to the B, C, F, M, N, Q and R subway routes.  An additional free transfer could be between PATH’s Ninth Street station and the subway’s West Fourth Street station.

      Ridership data used in this post are based on data found in the following links: NJTransit’s “Quarterly Ridership Trends Analysis,” page 5; “MTA information;” “Subway Ridership at a Glance” and “NJTransit Facts at a Glance,” page 2.

      Tom,

[TomG]

      As an addition to my previous post: Due to the way the Port Authority (the operator of PATH) is financed it may be that to reach an agreement with the Port Authority the two states (New York and New Jersey) would have to ensure that the Port Authority would be compensated for any loss of revenue due to a free transfer plan.

      Tom,