Jump to content


Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Sign in to follow this  
CenSin

Inequality and New York's Subway

Recommended Posts

Sad thing is I so remember when Canal St was re-done as a teenager... That station was dark and cold when it was being redone when we had to go through it and it's amazing how long it took to re-do that station and how sh*tty it looks...  <_<

 

Not surprised with the (1) train... All of the stops in the Bronx are for Kingsbridge....  These numbers are based on the people that actually LIVE where these stations are right??  

 

Also I'm a little surprised about Cortelyou and Beverly but not too shocked... Kensington is rather well to do in some parts.... Just a question of where these stats came from. 

 

The real kicker to me is in the Bronx though... E180th street 13,750 for the median income and the next stop is 70k (Morris Park), then Pelham Parkway at around 70,000 (two mainly white neighborhoods) and then it dips back down again once you get to Baychester.  :lol:

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it surprising that the (4)(5) have so low income, they run through the heart of the east side. I mean it's shocking how much the inequalities are, no wonder why the MTA has to raise the fare. What's surprising though is that on the (5) Morris Park is doing better than 180th Street. One thing to notice is that the bulk of the cash the MTA makes is from the area around 59th-63rd and lower manhattan. Tsk...Tsk...Tsk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it surprising that the (4)(5) have so low income, they run through the heart of the east side. I mean it's shocking how much the inequalities are, no wonder why the MTA has to raise the fare. What's surprising though is that on the (5) Morris Park is doing better than 180th Street. One thing to notice is that the bulk of the cash the MTA makes is from the area around 59th-63rd and lower manhattan. Tsk...Tsk...Tsk

That's not surprising at all.... Morris Park is a very nice neighborhood and had a strong Italian presence for years. You can see the difference along Morris Park Avenue if you take the BxM10 there.  180th street is apparently a neighborhood called Van Nest and aside from that train station the neighborhood looks like a complete dump.  Very depressing... I guess Morris Park has stayed so nice because the cops probably keep a close eye on the area like they do here in Riverdale, plus you have the big Montefiore and Albert Einstein complexes there as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference in the median #'s (more or less) for cortelyou & beverly is what I'd expect em to be.... the area around beverly subway lies in the heart of victorian flatbush, and while it's still "old money" so to speak in that neighborhood, it's still money.... if you consider the area west of cortelyou subway to east of it, there is (more of) a drastic difference.....

 

Anyway, this is done by a] census tract & b] median household income..... it's why the areas around park place & chambers st are as high as they are.... Take into account what a median of something is as well, and there you go....

 

example) 20k, 2 rusty old pennies, ryan howard's salary this year (20 million), 200k, cost of 2 burgers from the dollar menu

 

 

- average of that is 4 million something (someone can calculate the exact number, I'm doin this off top out of laziness right now)

- median is 20k

 

see the difference.....

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference in the median #'s (more or less) for cortelyou & beverly is what I'd expect em to be.... the area around beverly subway lies in the heart of victorian flatbush, and while it's still "old money" so to speak in that neighborhood, it's still money.... if you consider the area west of cortelyou subway to east of it, there is (more of) a drastic difference.....

 

Anyway, this is done by a] census tract & b] median household income..... it's why the areas around park place & chambers st are as high as they are.... Take into account what a median of something is as well, and there you go....

 

example) 20k, 2 rusty old pennies, ryan howard's salary this year (20 million), 200k, cost of 2 burgers from the dollar menu

 

 

- average of that is 4 million something (someone can calculate the exact number, I'm doin this off top out of laziness right now)

- median is 20k

 

see the difference.....

I'm not too shocked with Cortelyou and Beverley, it's just that those two stops are so close together that you wouldn't expect such a difference, but as we've said there are pockets that are well to do in Kensington.

 

What I do like is the (G) line in Brooklyn... 4 stops with incomes at our around 100,000... Goes to show you that not everyone has to be in Manhattan to have money....  :D

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not too shocked with Cortelyou and Beverley, it's just that those two stops are so close together that you wouldn't expect such a difference, but as we've said there are pockets that are well to do in Kensington.

 

What I do like is the (G) line in Brooklyn... 4 stops with incomes at our around 100,000... Goes to show you that not everyone has to be in Manhattan to have money....  :D

I didn't even look at the G line.... lemme guess, the stops in park slope & carroll gardens... lol....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's New York for you, million dollar mansions next to micro slums. The subway and the line at the DMV are the best melting pots, as they say. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No comment on 34 Street–Herald Square? I mean… that's the f**king heart of Manhattan!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No comment on 34 Street–Herald Square? I mean… that's the f**king heart of Manhattan!

I don't understand why you're so astounded w/ that... Are you expecting it to be higher?

While it's the heart of Manhattan, (enough) people with money like that (say 100k+) don't live around herald square....

 

Census tracts tend to be small anyway.... Here's a census tract map of NYC (click the census tract radio button, upper left corner).... Look for tract 76 (herald square area) & the specific blocks it encompasses.....

Edited by B35 via Church

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm shocked that Willets has higher average income than Main St on the (7) - Flushing has much nicer housing stock immediately around the station, and last I checked Willets was surrounded by auto shops.

Edited by bobtehpanda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm shocked that Willets has higher average income than Main St on the (7) - Flushing has much nicer housing stock immediately around the station, and last I checked Willets was surrounded by auto shops.

I know that's why I question where these stats came from...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm shocked that Willets has higher average income than Main St on the (7) - Flushing has much nicer housing stock immediately around the station, and last I checked Willets was surrounded by auto shops.

I know that's why I question where these stats came from...

From the looks of things, the census bureau...

 

http://www.usa.com/NY081038302.html

^^ for that same tract (as of 2010), they have the listed median household income as 97,500...

 

*shrugs*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While the general trends in the numbers don't surprise me, the exact numbers seem off to me. The census bureau had all sorts of problems with falsified data last time around, so I wouldn't put too much stock in difference of a few thousand dollars here and there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't even look at the G line.... lemme guess, the stops in park slope & carroll gardens... lol....

 

7th Avenue is around $104,000. Smith/9th, Carroll, & Bergen are just shy of $100,000.

 

Anyway, these stats are taken from the census. What happens is that every year, they mail out the annual community survey (ACS), but they only mail it out to about 3% of the households in any given tract. Then they take the median and I assume they do some statistical computations and whatnot (to account for the small sample size) to come up with these numbers. They have the 1-year ACS, 3-year ACS, and 5-year ACS, and it looks like this data is from the 5-year. (I think I saw 2007-2011 thrown in there somewhere)

 

The thing is that, because it's a small sample size (and because I doubt they really take a deep look into what numbers people actually put down), the numbers can sometimes be wildly skewed. For instance, according to the the 2005-2009 community survey, the median annual income in this census tract (6007 in Camden, NJ) was $55,478. And here is a block from that census tract. $55,478 is roughly a middle-class income, but that doesn't look particularly middle-class to me.

 

But it shows that the (inflation-adjusted) income increased about 130% since 2000, which would mean the original income was about $24,000 or so (I don't feel like doing the exact math), which sounds about right. I do see some newer-looking housing (though I know there are a couple of housing projects in the area that just happen to look nice, like these), so I could believe a small increase, to maybe $30,000, but that's about it. FWIW, they were fairly close on the racial/ethnic breakdown, though: Both the 2005-2009 ACS and 2010 census had that tract down as around 70% Hispanic, 25% Black.

 

Plus, there's also factors to consider, such as college students. The median income in the census tract that contains Fordham University is about $14,000 (and I'm pretty sure it doesn't include anything else), whereas the income in the surrounding tracts is generally around $25,000.

 

There's other measures of how well-off an area is such as the poverty rate, median per capita income, mean per capita income, and so on. Then there's also how much money people have in their bank accounts. You could have seniors who live comfortably off their pensions & Social Security because their homes are already paid off, and they have some money saved up. But for the purposes of ths survey, they're considered poor.

 

So in sum, I wouldn't go nuts over the exact numbers.

 

I don't understand why you're so astounded w/ that... Are you expecting it to be higher?

While it's the heart of Manhattan, (enough) people with money like that (say 100k+) don't live around herald square....

 

Census tracts tend to be small anyway.... Here's a census tract map of NYC (click the census tract radio button, upper left corner).... Look for tract 76 (herald square area) & the specific blocks it encompasses.....

 

Also, when you get into areas with low population (industrial areas, business districts like Midtown, etc), you also have homeless people to factor in as well. Supposedly, those workers are supposed to count everybody, so if they see some homeless guys outside the subway station and you get a few to agree to the survey (or I'm sure the workers just make up a name and put down a low number for income if they have to meet a quota or whatever), that'll lower the numbers.

 

I'm shocked that Willets has higher average income than Main St on the (7) - Flushing has much nicer housing stock immediately around the station, and last I checked Willets was surrounded by auto shops.

 

In that case, it may be similar to the Camden example: They just got a bad sample. (Either that, or the few families who live there happen to make a lot of money).

 

I also read something about data scrambling and noise-making or something: In order to protect privacy, sometimes they count people in one area instead of another. I don't know if they're allowed to shift across census tracts, or just across specific census blocks or what, but that might also be something to consider.

 

Also, I don't know if the article mentions it, but what do they do if the station is on the border of multiple census tracts? Most of the time, subway lines run on main streets that seperate different neighborhoods or portions of neighborhoods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot to add that here is a census tract map showing the median income of every tract in NYC. And I also forgot to mention that the margin of error on some of these tracts is huge (there was one in New Brighton whre the median income was $41,500 with a margin of error of $21,173)

 

EDIT: I just checked that Camden tract. I realized the WNYC map covered more than just NYC. The median income is listed as $38,000 with a margin of error of $36,794. So the data for that tract is basically worthless.

 

The real kicker to me is in the Bronx though... E180th street 13,750 for the median income and the next stop is 70k (Morris Park), then Pelham Parkway at around 70,000 (two mainly white neighborhoods) and then it dips back down again once you get to Baychester.  :lol:

 

Gun Hill Road is in a black neighborhood. Median income is about $65K. When you use the 2009 numbers, it comes out ahead because the Morris Park tract has a median income of $54,401. The Pelham Parkway tract is split between $69,144 & $63,250. Considering the margin of error, and the fact that these are just estimates, it's fair to say that all 3 are comparable in terms of median income.

Edited by checkmatechamp13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, VG8 is making fun of poor people and bragging about being rich again.  In other news, the Titanic is underwater.

Edited by Joel Up Front
  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are people pointing out what ethnic groups live where? Why should that matter? Can African Americans not have money? Can't Caucasians be poor? Next.....

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are people pointing out what ethnic groups live where? Why should that matter? Can African Americans not have money? Can't Caucasians be poor? Next.....

Calm down... I was laughing because that area Van Nest looks so deserted that I can't even believe anyone lives there so to me it's shocking that they have any income pool for there at all.  I'm just curious as to what those numbers are based on because they seem pretty off. It's just like Willets Point... There is NOTHING there but car shops (and run down ones at that) so where do they come up with ANY income, let alone income that high unless they're mixing businesses and residences together...

 

Look, VG8 is making fun of poor people and bragging about being rich again.  In other news, the Titanic is underwater.

Very funny but my neighborhood doesn't have any subways so I'm excluded from these skewed stats.  :lol:

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...So in sum, I wouldn't go nuts over the exact numbers.

 

 

Also, when you get into areas with low population (industrial areas, business districts like Midtown, etc), you also have homeless people to factor in as well. Supposedly, those workers are supposed to count everybody, so if they see some homeless guys outside the subway station and you get a few to agree to the survey (or I'm sure the workers just make up a name and put down a low number for income if they have to meet a quota or whatever), that'll lower the numbers.

No shock or surprise in this thread whatsoever from me, so believe me, I'm not going nuts over these figures.... I do find CenSin's level of astoundedness within this topic rather funny though.... As well as anyone else that can't seem to discern what encompasses a tract..... That's why I provided a link to the census map earlier....

 

As far as what you're saying here, yeah, anyone that decides to take the survey is factored in..... I remember a discussion that took place about the census (in speech class) in college where this big argument ensued over who's "counted" in the census as far as income is concerned.... You had those that were saying that they don't count students, the unemployed, illegal immigrants, the homeless - Which is simply not true.... That's been a misconception when it comes to the census.....

 

The conspiracy argument; meaning, whether some fudging is going on in regards to tracts (plural) within some neighborhood over others, is another story....I don't know how true this is, but supposedly there's a metric with which the census guesstimates how many zero income earners are in each tract (whether the survey is filled out by them or not), and that is factored into the numbers as well.... When it comes to people, not much of anything surprises me anymore.....

 

lol... Yeah even if they got it from there, I think the numbers are bit iffy in some cases... 

Yeah well what do you want from me.... lol.... you asked where these numbers came from & an answer was given....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah well what do you want from me.... lol.... you asked where these numbers came from & an answer was given....

lol... I know but you really do have the question where those numbers came from though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.