What needs to be done in the NYC mass transit world

[BrooklynIRT]

he sounded like he was referring to traffic problems. whatever his objection is, I have to see what he says.

 

how are those three roads you mentioned similar to a one-lane el structure in the middle of the road, as far from sidewalks and buildings as possible?

 

also are there any traffic cameras in place on any SBS corridors yet? even if there are I am sure they have not eliminated occurrences of people illegally using or double parking in bus lanes or whatever. if that were the case the M15 SBS would be breezing past all the vehicles sitting in rush hour traffic on 1st Ave. that has never happened when I have ridden it. does it ever happen? if so, how often?

 

now, DOT said it would put rush hour bus lanes on Nostrand between "I" and Flatbush northbound and between Farragut and Flatbush southbound. there are two issues there:

 

-if a local bus stops at Glenwood in front of an SBS bus, the SBS bus has to attempt to enter the left lane to circumvent the stopped local bus and then re-enter the curb lane (assuming that whole block b/w Glenwood and Flatbush is even clear of illegally parked vehicles) and continue moving southbound.

 

-nobody will obey the parking regulations, much like nobody obeys them now. there is a rush hour no standing regulation for Nostrand b/w Farragut and Flatbush. that lane is never clear during rush hours and there is no way I would agree with enforcement unless you literally stationed traffic cops there for the entire rush hour period to keep people from parking there.

 

and even then, that would only be a rush hour thing, so midday and weekend bus service would have to deal with the same slow traffic in that area.

 

and what about that question I asked before in post #16: if you disagree with this, then what would you want instead? do you realize how ridiculous it will be for the southbound SBS to not stop at Glenwood Rd, where a lot of people get off, just so it can sit in traffic waiting to reach "H" and then expect the people to walk from "H" back to Glenwood to go to the B6? there is also the B103, at Flatbush & Nostrand Aves, but the 6 is more frequent.

[bobtehpanda]

he sounded like he was referring to traffic problems. whatever his objection is, I have to see what he says.

 

how are those three roads you mentioned similar to a one-lane el structure in the middle of the road, as far from sidewalks and buildings as possible?

 

also are there any traffic cameras in place on any SBS corridors yet? even if there are I am sure they have not eliminated occurrences of people illegally using or double parking in bus lanes or whatever. if that were the case the M15 SBS would be breezing past all the vehicles sitting in rush hour traffic on 1st Ave. that has never happened when I have ridden it. does it ever happen? if so, how often?

 

now, DOT said it would put rush hour bus lanes on Nostrand between "I" and Flatbush northbound and between Farragut and Flatbush southbound. there are two issues there:

 

-if a local bus stops at Glenwood in front of an SBS bus, the SBS bus has to attempt to enter the left lane to circumvent the stopped local bus and then re-enter the curb lane (assuming that whole block b/w Glenwood and Flatbush is even clear of illegally parked vehicles) and continue moving southbound.

 

-nobody will obey the parking regulations, much like nobody obeys them now. there is a rush hour no standing regulation for Nostrand b/w Farragut and Flatbush. that lane is never clear during rush hours and there is no way I would agree with enforcement unless you literally stationed traffic cops there for the entire rush hour period to keep people from parking there.

 

and even then, that would only be a rush hour thing, so midday and weekend bus service would have to deal with the same slow traffic in that area.

 

and what about that question I asked before in post #16: if you disagree with this, then what would you want instead? do you realize how ridiculous it will be for the southbound SBS to not stop at Glenwood Rd, where a lot of people get off, just so it can sit in traffic waiting to reach "H" and then expect the people to walk from "H" back to Glenwood to go to the B6? there is also the B103, at Flatbush & Nostrand Aves, but the 6 is more frequent.

 

Well, traffic-wise, you're going to have horrendous impacts during construction, and that's an additional lane that will have to funnel back into the surface lanes at some point, creating a bottleneck. The point of SBS is also that it's cheap to implement, and any sort of flyover ramps would be contrary to this.

 

And, as discussed on an earlier thread about elevated construction on Nostrand, Nostrand isn't that wide. Even if it's a single lane, you're going to have a ten foot lane in a sixty foot right of way, assuming you put it in the median. That's twenty five feet on either side, which is extremely close for any sort of elevated road traffic. Not to mention, it's unclear where exactly you would have space for such a ramp to ascend from and descend to street level, since the road is only forty feet wide.

 

First and Second Avenues had the same exact problems. Then they did a giant enforcement blitz and turned on the cameras after the first few months of operation. Offending rates are much lower now. The same could be done for Nostrand.

 

Finally, are you saying that people will be extremely inconvenienced by a two-block walk? There are worse situations regarding bus transfers in this city, and SBS is supposed to reduce travel times by reducing stop spacing in extremely congested areas - it takes more time to pull in and pull out. Unless a significant portion of the ridership on the route has issues with personal mobility, there's no reason to add a stop that will add considerable amounts of dwell time to the route.

[peacemak3r]

how so?

 

This is too broad, what specifics do you want?

 

The overpass road on Nostrand/Flatbush?  Don't get me wrong it seems like a good idea, but really it'll just kill off a lane on the lower roadways just for the support beams unless the beams are placed on the sidewalks.  Secondly, I'm sure the NIMBY's wouldn't even want these structures there in the first place.

 

Tolling on the 2 East River bridges?  I'm sure there were many discussions on this particular topic already. For one, you'll never kill off traffic in the BQE corridor.  Why? BQE has all the trucks running on them and it's basically the artery of Brooklyn into Manhattan/Queens.  If anything, tolls on those bridges will create even MORE traffic on the BQE. (Even with the "don't stop EZ-Pass booths.")

 

The double parking thing, it's inevitable.  Everyone's done it, I don't care who you are, even cops do it.  It's nerve racking when it causes traffic beyond belief, even the triple parking matter I've encountered numerous times.  Secondly you can't even solely blame motorists on double parking on bus stops either.  I've seen police cars, delivery trucks, fire trucks, ambulances and taxi's double park there as well.  You're going to have to ticket them as well right?  Or are they "special"?

 

I do wish our buses would run more efficiently, but ultimately, we're in a big city.  We're not some small town in Kansas with clear roads.  Traffic is already a basic nature in NYC.  You want to fix these conditions?  You'd have to almost treat it like Sim City and demolish the entire area and rebuild it to efficiency.  These ideas to make it more reliable for buses are nice but it's almost the same as severing the motorist conditions at the same time.  You need to balance it out where both candidates are happy.

 

My reasoning's are all over the place on this one, apologies, it's the morning and I'm a bit restless at the moment.

[realizm]

^^^^^

..........And I just got a double parking ticket a while ago. These traffic cops they have no mercy, writing that ticket out with a smile like this is funny. I'm not laughing.

[BrooklynIRT]

Well, traffic-wise, you're going to have horrendous impacts during construction, and that's an additional lane that will have to funnel back into the surface lanes at some point, creating a bottleneck.

 

And, as discussed on an earlier thread about elevated construction on Nostrand, Nostrand isn't that wide. Even if it's a single lane, you're going to have a ten foot lane in a sixty foot right of way, assuming you put it in the median. That's twenty five feet on either side, which is extremely close for any sort of elevated road traffic. Not to mention, it's unclear where exactly you would have space for such a ramp to ascend from and descend to street level, since the road is only forty feet wide.

 

 

northbound, start the ramp just north of "I" in either the left lane or the curb lane. as it ascends, it moves over the middle of the road. it goes over the middle of the road until just north of "H", then it returns to the curb lane as it descends just before Flatbush Ave.

 

southbound, start the ramp just south of Farragut in either the left lane or the curb lane. as it ascends, it moves over the middle of the road. it goes over the middle of the road until just south of Flatbush, then it returns to the curb lane as it descends just before "H".

 

three proposals. local bus stops in question are the n/b one at "I" and the s/b one at Farragut:

 

-start the ramp in the left lane next to the local bus stop. if a local bus is servicing the local bus stop, cars have to wait for the bus to leave the stop so they can go thru the bus stop to circumvent the ramp and then move back to the left lane to go under the el.

 

-start the ramp in the right lane, after the local bus stop. if a local bus is servicing the stop, an approaching SBS bus has to wait for the local bus to leave the stop so it (the SBS bus) can go thru the local stop and enter the ramp. this eliminates parking since the ramp has to start north of the local bus stop.

 

-start the ramp in the right lane on the far side of Farragut or "I", move the local bus stop from the far side of the street to the near side. this eliminates the issue of SBS buses having to wait for locals to move out the way so the former can access the ramp. but also compromises parking, unless the local bus stop gets moved to a(nother) hydrant area.

 

--

 

alright, so the el may not be a pleasant sight for any residents living on the affected part of Nostrand. but first of all, literally nobody lives on Nostrand b/w "H" and "I". there are no residential units there. second of all, people live there b/w Farragut and "H", but how much would those people care about detrimental effects on property values that a one-lane el structure might cause? it is not even certain that there would be detrimental effects. nor is it certain that the negatives would outweigh the positives of this proposal for those people.

 

merchants would probably welcome it since it would make it much easier to reach the area by bus. 

 

This is too broad, what specifics do you want?

 

I boldfaced the part of your post I questioned. the part about the Junction.

 

The overpass road on Nostrand/Flatbush?  Don't get me wrong it seems like a good idea, but really it'll just kill off a lane on the lower roadways just for the support beams unless the beams are placed on the sidewalks.

 

how sure are you? what about just having support columns on the yellow lines? what makes you think support columns, whether they are located on the yellow lines or not, would be so big that they would eliminate any lanes on lower roadways?

 

The double parking thing, it's inevitable.  Everyone's done it, I don't care who you are, even cops do it.  It's nerve racking when it causes traffic beyond belief, even the triple parking matter I've encountered numerous times.  Secondly you can't even solely blame motorists on double parking on bus stops either.  I've seen police cars, delivery trucks, fire trucks, ambulances and taxi's double park there as well.  You're going to have to ticket them as well right?  Or are they "special"?

 

-delivery trucks do it because the city will not create more loading zones because merchants do not want to eliminate parking spaces.

 

-emergency vehicles are completely excused if their operator(s) is/are attending to an emergency.

 

-taxis have no business doing it for more than a few seconds (time to pick up/drop off a passenger).

[peacemak3r]

Your answers to my points are off scale completely.

 

1. Delivery trucks do it because their are no loading zones or don't want to eliminate parking spots, oh well, it still gives it's piece with traffic and delays everyone is complaining about with buses.

 

2. Taxi's have no business doing it for more than a few seconds?  Are you serious?  Only a few seconds?  Try 10-15 minutes at a time if you ever visited Brighton line stops, you'll definitely notice.

 

3. Emergency vehicles are completely excused if there is an emergency, I can agree to that. Unfortunately, 80% of the time they double park, it's NOT for an emergency.  Unless picking up a coffee or bagel is an emergency to you, damn, I'll move out of New York then.

 

----

 

On the support columns thing, I am fairly certain it'll take out a lane at least.  Examples would be from the Van Wyck when they constructed the Air Train, those supports already equal a lane thus making that passage less wide and eliminating some shoulder lanes.  Another example would be any support structure of the elevated subways, if you take those support structures out, I can pretty much say there are 2 full lanes for that passage.

 

Support columns on the sidewalk?  Good luck with that and the people in the area, if it wasn't there in the first place, what makes you think they'll enjoy it when placed?

 

If I lived in a neighborhood with no columns blocking the sunlight and what not and next thing you know they want to make a second level street, yeah no way buddy. Petitioned 100%.  Again, you'd have to make everyone happy not just ONE entity.

[BrooklynIRT]

off scale? how so?

 

1. I did not say not to do nothing about them. I said I want there to be more loading zones so they do not have to double park. either way, delivery trucks are not the only ones guilty of double parking.

 

2. I did not say taxis do not sit around blocking traffic for more than a few seconds. I said they have no business blocking moving lanes on busy streets where buses run, which means they have no right to block moving lanes on busy streets where buses run.

 

----

 

Airtrain is a poor example because Airtrain el support beams are much wider than subway el support beams.

 

I did not say there should be support columns on the sidewalk. only you mentioned support columns on the sidewalks, both before and after my post #30. I said what about just having support columns on the yellow lines? with a couple of other questions in post #30.

 

there is no guarantee that support columns placed only on the yellow lines would eliminate any lanes. the support columns would have to be more than 4 feet wide to do so. Nostrand is 40 feet wide, subtract 20 feet for the two 10 foot wide travel lanes and subtract 16 feet for the two 8 foot wide parking lanes (they would be 8 feet wide under this plan, not sure how wide they are now).

[BrooklynIRT]

I mean I have said in the past that I want there to be more loading zones so commercial trucks do not have to double park. what I said in post #30 implied this.

 

also not blocking moving lanes on streets where buses run is much more of an issue if said blockages delay bus service (which they do on much of Nostrand, every single day). just making that clear.

[bobtehpanda]

alright, so the el may not be a pleasant sight for any residents living on the affected part of Nostrand. but first of all, literally nobody lives on Nostrand b/w "H" and "I". there are no residential units there. second of all, people live there b/w Farragut and "H", but how much would those people care about detrimental effects on property values that a one-lane el structure might cause? it is not even certain that there would be detrimental effects. nor is it certain that the negatives would outweigh the positives of this proposal for those people.

 

merchants would probably welcome it since it would make it much easier to reach the area by bus. 

 

My issue isn't that property values in the area are going to be lowered due to an elevated road structure (although this is a widely acknowledged, universal effect for preexisting urban areas - for a particularly egregious example, see the South Bronx after the Cross Bronx Expressway). My issue is that you're essentially creating a pedestrian dead zone.

 

Elevated structures take up space, are usually poorly maintained, and block sunlight to street level, and creates a psychological barrier for pedestrians. With an elevated roadway in particular, there's also noise pollution and air pollution.

 

Merchants are going to hate the idea of an elevated road, because besides the reduced pedestrian traffic due to the blight, the elevated roadway will effectively function as a bypass. Every bus will be passing over instead of passing by local businesses, giving them reduced exposure. No one will look out the window of the bus and say, "is that a new coffee shop? I'd like to try it sometime", because they will be going over the shops.

 

Landlords are going to hate this because the visual blight, air pollution, and noise pollution is almost certain to reduce their property values, not to mention the reduced pedestrian presence will make their retail space less marketable.

 

Many cities have either been moving or trying to move their elevated roads underground, or are destroying them because of these negative effects. For obvious reasons, we can't put a bus lane underground, so this will have to do.

 

(I'd also like to note that pretty much every SBS program has resulted in the creation of designated loading zones in areas with bus lanes, so the concern about delivery trucks is moot.)

[peacemak3r]

Single 4 foot wide support beams to carry a second level with 2 lanes for buses aren't enough to support the weight and street I believe.

 

Honestly the only way I can see this work is if you eliminate parking on Nostrand all together to even get this structure to standards and efficiency.

 

I take back my comment on taxi's, I read your comment wrong.

[BrooklynIRT]

Elevated structures take up space, are usually poorly maintained, and block sunlight to street level, and creates a psychological barrier for pedestrians. With an elevated roadway in particular, there's also noise pollution and air pollution.

 

what do you mean by a psychological barrier for pedestrians? how is air pollution even a factor when the purpose of the el structure is to remove SBS buses from the traffic jams on the road below, decreasing the amount of traffic there, no new traffic is being created, and the SBS buses are burning fuel more efficiently by moving faster than they would be if they had to sit in traffic? how is noise pollution a factor when SBS moving at 30mph on the el is no different, noise-wise, from vehicles moving at 30mph on the road below when there is light traffic?

 

Merchants are going to hate the idea of an elevated road, because besides the reduced pedestrian traffic due to the blight, the elevated roadway will effectively function as a bypass. Every bus will be passing over instead of passing by local businesses, giving them reduced exposure. No one will look out the window of the bus and say, "is that a new coffee shop? I'd like to try it sometime", because they will be going over the shops.

 

you still have the B44 local for the street-level observation. also if the structure is just one lane wide and in the middle of the road, it is actually extremely easy to look out the windows on either side and see the businesses below. and, passengers would probably be more at ease mentally and more interested in observing the stores because they would not be sitting in traffic thinking to themselves, when are we going to clear this traffic jam already? I got places to go etc etc. if you are sitting in a traffic jam and trying to get somewhere quickly and are anxious to get out of the traffic jam, I think a store in the area where the jam is is one of the last things on your mind.

 

especially when most of the stores are b/w Glenwood and "H" and getting to those stores currently requires a person on a s/b B44 to sit in the traffic jam, wait for the traffic to clear, and then wait for the bus to get past Flatbush Ave and stop at "H" so s/he can finally exit the bus and walk back to the store(s) s/he wants to patronize.

 

Landlords are going to hate this because the visual blight, air pollution, and noise pollution is almost certain to reduce their property values, not to mention the reduced pedestrian presence will make their retail space less marketable.

 

in response to everything you have said thus far about blight: so we should avoid building something that will allow buses to bypass the traffic below when the traffic below is polluting the environment and making for some risky road conditions with southbound cars going into the opposing lane of Nostrand Ave to make left turns onto Glenwood when traffic really piles up down there, plus intersections being blocked by conga lines of vehicles, making it harder for people to cross the streets and whatnot? removing all those buses from the street below would decrease the amount of traffic there and the resultant air pollution.

 

I still do not understand the issue of reduced pedestrian presence due to blight. I addressed the noise and air pollution earlier. I do not know how pedestrian presence would be reduced if so many people have to pass through this area every day to transfer between buses, transfer from the bus to the train and vice versa etc. furthermore, what about the possibility of an increase in demand for local properties due to improved bus service that does not have to contend with traffic? that does not lead to the reduced property values that landlords would hate.

 

they could even compromise by starting the northbound el near the RR tracks or something, because the only things there are the meat market, which is set back from the street, and the garage for Target. start the southbound el halfway b/w Farragut and Glenwood or something. but they would either have to take out a few parking spaces or perhaps they could move a local bus stop from the corner at which it is currently located to the area next to the beginning of the ramp.

 

(I'd also like to note that pretty much every SBS program has resulted in the creation of designated loading zones in areas with bus lanes, so the concern about delivery trucks is moot.)

 

I am not so sure about that. if the loading zones on Nostrand and Rogers make a significant impact, I will believe it when I see it. DOT has to compromise a lot with the loading zones just to keep merchants and motorists satisfied.

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Single 4 foot wide support beams to carry a second level with 2 lanes for buses aren't enough to support the weight and street I believe.

 

I never proposed any two-lane elevated structures in this thread. only one-lane elevated structures, this is from post #16:

 

-an elevated road over Nostrand between "I" and Flatbush, with this road descending to street level before the northbound B44 SBS stop, so northbound B44 SBS buses can bypass all the traffic and then stop where they will be stopping under the SBS plan. note that the elevated road between "I" and Flatbush is for northbound B44 SBS buses only.

 

-an elevated road over Nostrand between Farragut and Flatbush, with this road descending to street level either just before the southbound B44 SBS stop or just before Flatbush Ave (where the no standing anytime zone is), so southbound B44 SBS buses can bypass all the traffic and then stop where they will be stopping under the SBS plan. note that the elevated road between Farragut and Flatbush is for southbound B44 SBS buses only.

 

I will also repeat what I said above so you can see it easier:

 

they could even compromise by starting the northbound el near the RR tracks or something, because the only things there are the meat market, which is set back from the street, and the garage for Target. start the southbound el halfway b/w Farragut and Glenwood or something. but they would either have to take out a few parking spaces or perhaps they could move a local bus stop from the corner at which it is currently located to the area next to the beginning of the ramp.

[bobtehpanda]

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I never proposed any two-lane elevated structures in this thread. only one-lane elevated structures, this is from post #16:

 

-an elevated road over Nostrand between "I" and Flatbush, with this road descending to street level before the northbound B44 SBS stop, so northbound B44 SBS buses can bypass all the traffic and then stop where they will be stopping under the SBS plan. note that the elevated road between "I" and Flatbush is for northbound B44 SBS buses only.

 

-an elevated road over Nostrand between Farragut and Flatbush, with this road descending to street level either just before the southbound B44 SBS stop or just before Flatbush Ave (where the no standing anytime zone is), so southbound B44 SBS buses can bypass all the traffic and then stop where they will be stopping under the SBS plan. note that the elevated road between Farragut and Flatbush is for southbound B44 SBS buses only.

 

I will also repeat what I said above so you can see it easier:

 

they could even compromise by starting the northbound el near the RR tracks or something, because the only things there are the meat market, which is set back from the street, and the garage for Target. start the southbound el halfway b/w Farragut and Glenwood or something. but they would either have to take out a few parking spaces or perhaps they could move a local bus stop from the corner at which it is currently located to the area next to the beginning of the ramp.

 

There will be additional air pollution because you're not removing lanes from Nostrand. Any space vacated by buses will be taken up by cars and SUVs in stop-and-go traffic, and that is much worse when it comes to automobile emissions.

 

You also now have the sounds and the fumes from buses going directly into second and third-story windows 25 feet away.

 

Again, you said it yourself - the point is to allow buses to bypass the Junction, and thereby the businesses alongside it. No one is going to take the local to go sightseeing.

 

It is going to be big, imposing, and will cast a long shadow. Fits the bill of a giant psychological landmark to me. Have you even been next to a freeway, overpass, or el before? They are, indeed, blights.

 

There's nothing wrong with grade-separated structures - however, there is something wrong with trying to fit elevated concrete structures into densely packed, vibrant urban areas. If you want to see better segregated bus facilities, see the Metro Bus Tunnel in Seattle, or the underground busways in Brisbane.

 

Besides, the point of SBS is that it's quick and cheap. Any grade-separated facilities would be contrary to the point of the program.

[peacemak3r]

So basically 2 separate overhead passage ways on Nostrand?  It's still impractical, I still think that'll cause more traffic than it already has.

 

The distance between Ave I and Flatbush Ave isn't even that long to make up time for.  You'll save what? 1-2 minutes at the very most if anything.

 

Between Farraguat and Flatbush's distance isn't that great either.

 

Worse come to worse, if anything between Farraguat and Ave I, just eliminate the curb-side parking in all then.  I'm sure between Ave H and Flatbush Ave already has no parking there.  I'd probably save between Farraguat and Flatbush should be no parking anyway since it's the block before the junction anyway.  Having no parking/standing between Ave I and H should be viable since as you said, it's mostly commercial there as well.

 

All in all, I really don't think overhead passways on those blocks will save ANY time what-so-ever in that short distance.

[Quill Depot]

To me it's money. Transit only needs a little more money to get America off there feet and riding public transport instead of uneconomic cars.

[BrooklynIRT]

So basically 2 separate overhead passage ways on Nostrand?  It's still impractical, I still think that'll cause more traffic than it already has.

 

how?

 

The distance between Ave I and Flatbush Ave isn't even that long to make up time for.

 

yes it is. there are conga lines and traffic signals you have to wait for if you miss a green signal. and the point is to make it so that not only do buses avoid the usual problems there, but they also avoid the problems that occur when traffic gets really messed up in that area (think holiday season and holidays in general).

 

this also needs to be one of several ways to save travel time over the entire route. not just the Junction area. even if you look at the short el by itself, saving a couple of minutes often makes a difference between just missing another bus or train to which one must transfer and just making it.

 

Between Farraguat and Flatbush's distance isn't that great either.

 

this is the same distance as "I" to Flatbush but with worse problems. 

 

Worse come to worse, if anything between Farraguat and Ave I, just eliminate the curb-side parking in all then.  I'm sure between Ave H and Flatbush Ave already has no parking there.  I'd probably save between Farraguat and Flatbush should be no parking anyway since it's the block before the junction anyway.  Having no parking/standing between Ave I and H should be viable since as you said, it's mostly commercial there as well.

 

agreed, but two problems:

 

-requires enforcement, which is hit or miss unless it is proven otherwise.

 

-motorist opposition to changes, if said opposition is too powerful.

 

All in all, I really don't think overhead passways on those blocks will save ANY time what-so-ever in that short distance.

 

how? 30mph on the el with no signals vs. 0-15mph on the street in jammed areas with signals and a 20-25 second green phase for Nostrand Ave. and if you miss a green you have to wait like 90 seconds for the next one.

 

 

There will be additional air pollution because you're not removing lanes from Nostrand. Any space vacated by buses will be taken up by cars and SUVs in stop-and-go traffic

 

how? why? you do know that they want a rush hour curbside bus lane b/w Farragut and FB southbound and b/w "I" and FB northbound, right? assuming people rarely use that lane illegally (which is grasping at straws), this will basically produce the same effect as having a bus only overpass which, according to you, will mean even more cars and SUVs on the street.

 

then there is also the question of whether you would hold onto the seldom obeyed rush-hour no standing regulations on Nostrand b/w Farragut and FB if there were a bus-only overpass there and whether this would mean that any space vacated by buses will be taken up by cars and SUVs in stop-and-go traffic as you claim.

 

You also now have the sounds and the fumes from buses going directly into second and third-story windows 25 feet away.

 

there is no SBS during overnight hours when people have to sleep. hot air rises, so the fumes from any vehicle goes into their windows regardless of whether the vehicle is on an el structure or on the street.

 

Again, you said it yourself - the point is to allow buses to bypass the Junction, and thereby the businesses alongside it.

 

did I say that? where? regardless of whether I did, what is your point?

 

It is going to be big, imposing, and will cast a long shadow. Fits the bill of a giant psychological landmark to me. Have you even been next to a freeway, overpass, or el before? They are, indeed, blights.

 

I am near els every day. I sense no blight around W 231 St & Broadway, where the el blocks much more sunlight than a one-lane el would. granted, Broadway is wider there than Nostrand Ave, but still.

 

I also am having trouble understanding the concept of a giant psychological landmark.

 

I just looked at a google streetview of 5805 Broadway in the Bronx. I saw sunlight on the second story of that apartment building despite the fact that it is right next to the W 238 St station on the . three track el with platforms in the area. covers the whole road. unlike a 12 foot wide structure over the middle of a road such as Nostrand. whatever shadow appears due to the one lane el would probably be quite narrow anyway. and the shadow would probably rarely touch the sidewalks due to the narrowness of the structure.

 

Besides, the point of SBS is that it's quick and cheap. Any grade-separated facilities would be contrary to the point of the program.

 

alright, but there is room for improvement and buses have been too slow for too long. this cannot go on forever and should be fixed wherever possible.

[bobtehpanda]

The "more cars and SUVs" on the street is assuming that you're building the bus overpass while keeping the configuration of Nostrand the same - four lanes on the surface street, and a bus lane overhead. It'd be pretty silly to have both a bus lane on the ground and a bus overpass. Since the surface will be completely vacated of buses due to the overpass, there is going to be more room for private vehicles.

 

So you want to build a bus overpass that won't be utilized outside of daylight hours?

 

I mean, it's implied that you want the buses to bypass traffic on the Junction. It's not like you want it built for the eye candy...

 

A more apt comparison is the el on Roosevelt Av in Queens. It's the same road width, and while Jackson Heights and other neighborhoods around the are vibrant, the street with the actual el structure on it is decidedly less so.

 

There's nothing wrong with grade separation, but elevated isn't the way to go in a urban area such as this. You'd also need to somehow convince neighborhood residents and business owners that an overpass would be worth the disruption that they would face during construction.

 

In any case, DOT will probably end up doing what they did with Fordham Rd and First/Second Avenues - after a few months, start an NYPD enforcement blitz and install traffic cameras to catch lane violators.

[BrooklynIRT]

it will not be completely vacated of buses because local B44s still have to use the surface to stop at local bus stops.

 

I still do not understand how elimination of most bus traffic, resulting in room for other vehicles, automatically means more vehicles on the surface.

 

the overpass would be used by SBS buses only, which means only during the SBS hours of operation. hopefully not overnight when people need to sleep.

 

on Roosevelt the structure is the same width as the road and supports are on sidewalks. the structure I have in mind for Nostrand is different in both of these respects.

[peacemak3r]

bobtehpanda brings up a good point, if this overpass isn't utilized 24/7 it's a complete waste of time and money.  Thus if it's only used for SBS service hours than it's even more absurd.

 

As said, I've driven around Junction at night times and it's pretty deserted..meaning no traffic at all which also means the overpass is useless in that area.  You know honestly most of the congestion there is not only cars/trucks/buses during rush-hours and mid-day, it's all the people crossing the damn streets too.  I remember going to Midwood back in the day and getting off at the Junction, it's all cars and people crossing everywhere.  Felt like that infamous Tokyo junction with all the cross walks.

[BrooklynIRT]

so assuming we only look at Nostrand b/w Farragut and FB, are you saying that there will be more private vehicles if there is a southbound bus lane overhead plus two southbound driving lanes on the surface? or that there will be more private vehicles if there is a southbound bus lane overhead plus one southbound driving lane on the surface plus one southbound parking lane?

 

and for Nostrand b/w "I" and FB, are you saying that there will be more private vehicles if there is a northbound bus lane overhead plus two northbound driving lanes on the surface? or that there will be more private vehicles if there is a northbound bus lane overhead plus one northbound driving lane on the surface plus one northbound parking lane?

 

remember, SBS uses the overhead. local uses the surface like all the other vehicles. so given all this, are you still saying this will result in private vehicles replacing SBS buses on the surface? why would this happen? the only thing I can possibly think of is that those who already drive on a regular basis and can use Nostrand to avoid driving some slower north-south route (like Flatbush) would start driving on Nostrand in the vicinity of JCT, which is a good thing since FB has worse traffic than.

 

you cannot possibly be telling me that the replacement private vehicle traffic would be people who just up and decided to start driving on the streets of NYC (adding to the total number of private vehicles on the roads) just because they found out that a lot of bus traffic was removed from Nostrand and diverted to a grade separated structure. those who decide to start driving on a regular basis do so regardless of whether this elevated bus lane gets built or not.

[BrooklynIRT]

bobtehpanda brings up a good point, if this overpass isn't utilized 24/7 it's a complete waste of time and money.  Thus if it's only used for SBS service hours than it's even more absurd.

 

As said, I've driven around Junction at night times and it's pretty deserted..meaning no traffic at all which also means the overpass is useless in that area.

complete waste of time and money..how so? are you really going to say that the faster bus service bringing so many people to such a commercial area and increasing patronage at local businesses would happen because of a complete waste of time and money when it would help the local businesses make more money? and why the focus on the 9 hours of the day that JCT traffic is light? what happened to the 15 hours of the day in which JCT traffic is heavy and needs to be decreased?

[bobtehpanda]

so assuming we only look at Nostrand b/w Farragut and FB, are you saying that there will be more private vehicles if there is a southbound bus lane overhead plus two southbound driving lanes on the surface? or that there will be more private vehicles if there is a southbound bus lane overhead plus one southbound driving lane on the surface plus one southbound parking lane?

 

and for Nostrand b/w "I" and FB, are you saying that there will be more private vehicles if there is a northbound bus lane overhead plus two northbound driving lanes on the surface? or that there will be more private vehicles if there is a northbound bus lane overhead plus one northbound driving lane on the surface plus one northbound parking lane?

 

remember, SBS uses the overhead. local uses the surface like all the other vehicles. so given all this, are you still saying this will result in private vehicles replacing SBS buses on the surface? why would this happen? the only thing I can possibly think of is that those who already drive on a regular basis and can use Nostrand to avoid driving some slower north-south route (like Flatbush) would start driving on Nostrand in the vicinity of JCT, which is a good thing since FB has worse traffic than.

 

you cannot possibly be telling me that the replacement private vehicle traffic would be people who just up and decided to start driving on the streets of NYC (adding to the total number of private vehicles on the roads) just because they found out that a lot of bus traffic was removed from Nostrand and diverted to a grade separated structure. those who decide to start driving on a regular basis do so regardless of whether this elevated bus lane gets built or not.

 

It's called the "induced demand" theory of transportation: when new capacity is created in a congested area, people make trips that take advantage of this new capacity, eventually maxing the new capacity out as well.

 

This is why building out highways doesn't work to reduce congestion - the mere existence of more highway capacity encourages more people to use the highway, maxing it out within a few years. The same will occur if you build a short bus overpass, and it'll actually make traffic worse because those two general driving lanes will merge into one after a few short blocks, creating a bottleneck.

[BrooklynIRT]

induced demand theory. if that theory is correct, could they not give Nostrand less green time at Glenwood and FB during SBS hours to reflect whatever loss of bus traffic on the surface? that would keep the traffic queues on Nostrand in this area the same as they are now. if that were done, southbound SBS buses would not deal with any longer reds. northbound SBS buses would deal with the longer red at FB but would still be better off than they would be without an SBS-only el. although how much better off is the question. southbound traffic near JCT is a bigger problem for the B44 than northbound traffic near JCT.

 

what two general driving lanes? who said there had to be more than one? I only listed that as a possibility, among the others from post #44 because I was not sure what situation you had in mind.

[BrooklynIRT]

if they built a southbound el but no northbound el, then if the induced demand theory is correct, they could shorten the green phase for the southbound side to account for the loss of whatever bus traffic there. they could set it up such that both northbound and southbound traffic on Nostrand gets green after the walk cycle ends, but the southbound side gets red 14 seconds before the northbound side (15 secs before FB gets green).

 

8 seconds after the southbound side gets red, the northbound side gets 4 seconds of green for left turns only (red for everybody else), making it easier for SBS buses to get to the left lane and make that left turn. and it would make it easier for other vehicles to make that left turn, so maybe it would be a good idea not to illegalize that northbound left turn for non-buses. the southbound one should probably still be illegalized though.

 

they can also shorten the walk cycle (regardless of whether they put up an el or not) for the four shortest crosswalks if they are banning southbound left turns and banning northbound left turns for non buses or just putting up a red/yellow/green left turn signal for northbound traffic while allowing non buses to make the northbound left. this is important for reducing the cycle time of the intersection especially if the s/b side of Nostrand is to get a red 14 secs before the n/b side.

[qjtransitmaster]

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I never proposed any two-lane elevated structures in this thread. only one-lane elevated structures, this is from post #16:

 

-an elevated road over Nostrand between "I" and Flatbush, with this road descending to street level before the northbound B44 SBS stop, so northbound B44 SBS buses can bypass all the traffic and then stop where they will be stopping under the SBS plan. note that the elevated road between "I" and Flatbush is for northbound B44 SBS buses only.

 

-an elevated road over Nostrand between Farragut and Flatbush, with this road descending to street level either just before the southbound B44 SBS stop or just before Flatbush Ave (where the no standing anytime zone is), so southbound B44 SBS buses can bypass all the traffic and then stop where they will be stopping under the SBS plan. note that the elevated road between Farragut and Flatbush is for southbound B44 SBS buses only.

 

I will also repeat what I said above so you can see it easier:

 

they could even compromise by starting the northbound el near the RR tracks or something, because the only things there are the meat market, which is set back from the street, and the garage for Target. start the southbound el halfway b/w Farragut and Glenwood or something. but they would either have to take out a few parking spaces or perhaps they could move a local bus stop from the corner at which it is currently located to the area next to the beginning of the ramp.

Is the B44 LTD THAT SLOW? I dose off on it so maybe your right to a degree.maybe a straddling bus to avoid the infrastructure costs of a busway Now that I think about it maybe it can work for express service to bypass traffic on the BQE and provide fast direct transit as well,

 

There will be additional air pollution because you're not removing lanes from Nostrand. Any space vacated by buses will be taken up by cars and SUVs in stop-and-go traffic, and that is much worse when it comes to automobile emissions.

 

You also now have the sounds and the fumes from buses going directly into second and third-story windows 25 feet away.

 

Again, you said it yourself - the point is to allow buses to bypass the Junction, and thereby the businesses alongside it. No one is going to take the local to go sightseeing.

 

It is going to be big, imposing, and will cast a long shadow. Fits the bill of a giant psychological landmark to me. Have you even been next to a freeway, overpass, or el before? They are, indeed, blights.

 

There's nothing wrong with grade-separated structures - however, there is something wrong with trying to fit elevated concrete structures into densely packed, vibrant urban areas. If you want to see better segregated bus facilities, see the Metro Bus Tunnel in Seattle, or the underground busways in Brisbane.

 

Besides, the point of SBS is that it's quick and cheap. Any grade-separated facilities would be contrary to the point of the program.

err you do realize that the elevated busway will have stations so passengers can reach the businesses below right? So the buses will bypass the traffic without bypassing the trip generators. Ohh Nostrand busway was NOT my idea to be honest I didn't think nostrand traffic was severe enough to need one ohh well. So underground busways make more sense? bobtehpanda? I never thought of it like that that may work sort of.

[Fresh Pond]

Is the B44 LTD THAT SLOW? I dose off on it so maybe your right to a degree.maybe a straddling bus to avoid the infrastructure costs of a busway Now that I think about it maybe it can work for express service to bypass traffic on the BQE and provide fast direct transit as well,

 

err you do realize that the elevated busway will have stations so passengers can reach the businesses below right? So the buses will bypass the traffic without bypassing the trip generators. Ohh Nostrand busway was NOT my idea to be honest I didn't think nostrand traffic was severe enough to need one ohh well. So underground busways make more sense? bobtehpanda? I never thought of it like that that may work sort of.

How you gonna put an underground bus tunnel there when the train is already there...