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Conductors who shut the doors off-peak just as another train is entering


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Yes. Additionally the (3) running is is to provide the riders at 145th and 148th with any service at all since the track layout makes running the old shuttles a production, and those stations would otherwise be subject to shuttle busing. Running the shortlined (3) also frees the switches at 135th and just north for work train moves, wash returns, etc. TSQ is actually the most logical place to turn this shortened service since you'd have some of the same issues at 96th as 135th.

34th would make more sense to me to terminate the (3) late nights because of it being Penn Station and people who do go through there.

 

As for the (5), if you extend it late nights, I would look to extend it either:

 

To 42nd-Grand Central, running express from 125th south.

 

OR

 

To Brooklyn Bridge, replacing the (4) as the second late-night local with the (4) becoming a 24/7 express.

 

That might be your east side late night compromise.

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34th would make more sense to me to terminate the (3) late nights because of it being Penn Station and people who do go through there.

 

As for the (5), if you extend it late nights, I would look to extend it either:

 

To 42nd-Grand Central, running express from 125th south.

 

OR

 

To Brooklyn Bridge, replacing the (4) as the second late-night local with the (4) becoming a 24/7 express.

 

That might be your east side late night compromise.

34th St - Penn has two things against it. 1. It's doesn't have the ridership numbers of TSQ. Even with the railroads there, the railroads are typically used during earlier hours because their service becomes so infrequent or nonexistent during late night hours. Like Metro-North which stops all operations out of Grand Central at 1:30 am. I don't know how LIRR or NJT works. 2. 34th St - Penn has three platforms with the middle being the express platform making the station very undesirable for transferring. Transit factors in personal injuries lawsuits into these matters. Going down a set of stairs and across what could be a wet floor at that time of night and up a flight of stairs in a hurry is a higher risk than a cross platform transfer. This is why 34th is only used as a terminal during GOs.

 

The ridership numbers for Dyre alone and I'm not even talking about Mott Av to E180 don't justify having the 5 travel all of that distance from Dyre which is a much greater distance than the 4 travels to Woodlawn. It would be a waste of money in additional maintenance costs.

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Whoops I was suppose to downvote the above post of VG8, not upvoted it. Damn. Well it doesn't matter anyway...

 

 

I suppose you could say karma's a bitch.

 

And now I await my down reps.

Hey luxury comes at a price...  :lol:

 

Well, I'm just saying that its headways are far from the "best around". The best headways around would be lines like the (1) & (6), where you don't even have to bother running for the train (unless of course, you're trying to make a really tight connection, like with the ferry). I know I definitely don't have that attitude when I'm dealing with the (N).

 

It generally runs better than the (R) (though I've had my share of times when I got off the (R) at 59th and a second (R) came before the (N) did), and I'm not denying that. But let's not make it like the (N) has these super-low headways or something.

Let's not going on and on with this. I already clarified myself in the previous posts and my position stands based on those posts....  I'm quite familiar with the subway system and especially the (1) and (6) so I know about the frequencies.  How frequent the train comes and how quickly you can get on without having to let trains bypass you as I've had with both lines is completely different.  In the overall scheme of things, anything that involves waiting and being able to get on a train in 10 minutes or less in my book is just fine when talking about the subway and the (N) falls into that category.

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Let's not going on and on with this. I already clarified myself in the previous posts and my position stands based on those posts....  I'm quite familiar with the subway system and especially the (1) and (6) so I know about the frequencies.  How frequent the train comes and how quickly you can get on without having to let trains bypass you as I've had with both lines is completely different.  In the overall scheme of things, anything that involves waiting and being able to get on a train in 10 minutes or less in my book is just fine when talking about the subway and the (N) falls into that category.

 

(**sigh**)

 

Here you go again changing it up talking about "just fine", as if I was implying there's anything wrong with the (N)'s frequencies. All I'm saying the (N)'s frequencies aren't the "best around", even considering crowding on the train and having to let trains go.

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(**sigh**)

 

Here you go again changing it up talking about "just fine", as if I was implying there's anything wrong with the (N)'s frequencies. All I'm saying the (N)'s frequencies aren't the "best around", even considering crowding on the train and having to let trains go.

And I'm saying IN MY OPINION and EXPERIENCES that they are.  This isn't a question of factual or not.  If you want to look at the schedule sure, fine, but that's immaterial to me since my comment was based on when the actual trains come and when I can get on them rather than what is listed on the schedule.

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The ridership numbers for Dyre alone and I'm not even talking about Mott Av to E180 don't justify having the 5 travel all of that distance from Dyre which is a much greater distance than the 4 travels to Woodlawn. It would be a waste of money in additional maintenance costs.

 

 

Dyre alone can't be the only thing in determining where the late night (5) terminates. It was said that the (N) and (Q) being crowded were the reasons the (B) and (W) had extended evening hours. MTA also said that the late night (3) would relieve crowding on Bronx bound (2) trains. Using that logic, a late night (5) extension would also depend on the (2) and (4) ridership, not just Dyre ridership.

 

Ridership between Bowling Green and Brooklyn Bridge

Ridership between Brooklyn Bridge and 42 St

Ridership between 42 St and 125 St

Ridership between 125 St and 149 St

Amount of people transferring from the (4) to the (2)

Ridership between 149 St and E 180 St

Amount of people transferring from the (2) to the (5)

Ridership between E 180 St and Dyre Av

 

The other late night (3) terminals would likely be either 14th Street, Chambers Street, or South Ferry (as local, while (2) becomes express)

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And I'm saying IN MY OPINION and EXPERIENCES that they are.  This isn't a question of factual or not.  If you want to look at the schedule sure, fine, but that's immaterial to me since my comment was based on when the actual trains come and when I can get on them rather than what is listed on the schedule.

 

I'm not basing it entirely off the schedule (boy, I love it when you come up with that knee-jerk response). Last I checked, I use the subway too, and seeing as I live on Staten Island, lines like the (N) & (R) are some of the ones I use most frequently.

 

And as for being able to fit on the trains, well, keep in mind that we're not talking about rush hour. Very rarely is the midday (1) crowded to the point where you have to let a train go by, at least from what I've seen (unless of course, there's a delay). The same thing with the (A) (unless of course, you're east of Rockaway Blvd). Even the (6) during middays generally isn't too bad (because everybody's packing onto the (4) & (5)).

 

Whatever. You have your opinion about the (N) & (R), and I have mine.

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I'm not basing it entirely off the schedule (boy, I love it when you come up with that knee-jerk response). Last I checked, I use the subway too, and seeing as I live on Staten Island, lines like the (N) & (R) are some of the ones I use most frequently.

 

And as for being able to fit on the trains, well, keep in mind that we're not talking about rush hour. Very rarely is the midday  (1) crowded to the point where you have to let a train go by, at least from what I've seen (unless of course, there's a delay). The same thing with the (A) (unless of course, you're east of Rockaway Blvd). Even the (6) during middays generally isn't too bad (because everybody's packing onto the (4) & (5)).

 

Whatever. You have your opinion about the (N) & (R), and I have mine.

And that's exactly my point and has been the entire time, so there's no point in telling me about your experiences and when the damn train runs, etc., etc. etc. when I'm basing it on my opinion and my experiences.  Opinions are just that... Opinions. I don't care about how often you take the damn (N) & (R).  Your experiences have nothing to do with mine, as if the fact that you on Staten Island somehow makes your experience factual.  Listen, I've been riding the trains before you even existed so I'm not interested in your expertise and you trying to tell me which train has great frequencies.

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And that's exactly my point and has been the entire time, so there's no point in telling me about your experiences and when the damn train runs, etc., etc. etc. when I'm basing it on my opinion and my experiences.  Opinions are just that... Opinions. I don't care about how often you take the damn (N) & (R).  Your experiences have nothing to do with mine, as if the fact that you live on Staten Island somehow makes your experience factual.  Listen, I've been riding the trains before you even existed so I'm not interested in your expertise and you trying to tell me which train has great frequencies.

 

No, I'm just throwing it out there because you've brought up that crap before about "Oh, how do you know about how reliably a line runs if you don't use it yadda yadda yadda" (the same way you're trying to make it out like I'm basing all this off the schedule), so I'm covering myself in advance by saying I take those particular lines fairly often.

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No, I'm just throwing it out there because you've brought up that crap before about "Oh, how do you know about how reliably a line runs if you don't use it yadda yadda yadda" (the same way you're trying to make it out like I'm basing all this off the schedule), so I'm covering myself in advance by saying I take those particular lines fairly often.

 

What does that still have to do with Staten Island might I ask?

 

Anyways, I'm dumbfounded that this thread is still alive.

 

Also, I guess I'll input my opinions, I never liked the (R), feels like once I miss the (R) I have to wait AGES for the next one.  Realistically it's only about 10-15 minutes for my next one to arrive but still..feels like an eternity for it to arrive.  This is based off of morning rush and the afternoon hours for me at DeKalb Ave and Whitehall Street or City Hall (If I take the (1) to South Ferry).  The (N) on the other hand I had better luck with; when I worked around 8 Ave for a while, I always caught an (N).  It may not have the best frequency then the usual (6) but it was better than that (R).  Probably the one thing I hated most when coming back was missing the transfer to the (B) at DeKalb with the (R) but on the bright side, an empty (Q) pulls up within 5 minutes or so.  No biggie.

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The (R) is basically the closest subway line to Staten Island, since it serves both South Ferry and Bay Ridge, which have ferry and bus connections (respectively) to Staten Island. My point is that since I don't live in a bubble, I'm going to have to go to Manhattan from time to time, and when I do, the (R) is one of the lines I'm most likely to use.

 

Ooooh, yeah, that's real snarky with the italicizing of "opinions". :rolleyes: In any case, I think most of us can agree that the (N) runs better than the (R).

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Dyre alone can't be the only thing in determining where the late night (5) terminates. It was said that the (N) and (Q) being crowded were the reasons the (B) and (W) had extended evening hours. MTA also said that the late night (3) would relieve crowding on Bronx bound (2) trains. Using that logic, a late night (5) extension would also depend on the (2) and (4) ridership, not just Dyre ridership.

 

Ridership between Bowling Green and Brooklyn Bridge

Ridership between Brooklyn Bridge and 42 St

Ridership between 42 St and 125 St

Ridership between 125 St and 149 St

Amount of people transferring from the (4) to the (2)

Ridership between 149 St and E 180 St

Amount of people transferring from the (2) to the (5)

Ridership between E 180 St and Dyre Av

 

The other late night (3) terminals would likely be either 14th Street, Chambers Street, or South Ferry (as local, while (2) becomes express)

You can't compare service patterns in the A division to the B division. That's not something Operations Planning does at all. Different train sizes, different station layouts, different truck line set ups, different terminal locations all together and as a result different needs for a different set of circumstances. That being said let's address what you've stated.

 

Let's first establish the purpose of extending the 3. To serve passengers heading to and coming from 145th Street Station and 148th - Lenox Terminal. To also help the 2 in establishing 10 minute headways in Manhattan during late night hours. Now that doesn't include 42nd to 96th. That only includes 110th - Lenox to 135th. If 96th could effectively be used as a terminal as 42nd can then trust me they would use 96th. However, using 96th as a terminal would effectively complicate the commute considering the move that needs to be made with the train. Two additional stops from 96th is harmless and still falls with in the 20 minute headway window which means you really only need two trains.

 

Yes maintenance means everything down in the subways. Car Equipment owns the cars and have great input in what is done with what cars.

 

Going back to Dyre...it dictates more than you can understand for several reasons.

  1. It's location
  2. It's ridership levels
  3. How many stops served

As for your points.

 

  • Bowling Green to Brooklyn Bridge - If ridership levels were a concern, the 6 would be extended to Bowling Green
  • Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central - Serviced by both the 4 & 6 on 10 minutes average headways
  • 42nd to 125th - Serviced by both the 4 & 6 on 10 minutes average headways
  • 125th to 149th - 138th GC is a very low ridership station and is barely used after hours. 149th serviced by both the 2 & 4
  • 149th to 180th - Serviced by the 2 and a majority of riders desire the 2 as their final destination
  • 180th - Moot point, a majority still desire the 2, the 5 operates as a shuttle which is self explanatory regarding service levels

As a matter of fact if you were to actually go up there at night or early AMs you would get a better understanding as to why. Morris Park to Dyre all have their station booths closed after hours. One train starts at Dyre and is 5 cars and the other 5 cars start at 180 and they run back and forth. That's all. On the West Side you can send the 3 which starts in Manhattan down to 42nd in 20 minutes. You could not do the same with the 5 from Dyre to GC. Even if you used Mott Av - 149th GC the move would not be beneficial to passengers which is why it's not done as well. As for comparisons East Side to West. The 3 goes to 42nd to simplify the move for the train plus the miles put on the train are minimal. The miles that would be put on the equipment on the 5 would be significant for services levels that don't justify a need. Plus The East side is served in all of Manhattan by the two most desired lines anyway.

 

At the end of the day I'm sorry but I feel like you're trying to justify more of a fantasy service as opposed to understanding why OP makes the decisions they make. Car Equipment carries input on it and so does the bean counters and I can tell you no one wants to pay more millions to run the 5 into midtown 24/7 when barely anyone uses it at those hours in the Bronx.

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The (R) is basically the closest subway line to Staten Island, since it serves both South Ferry and Bay Ridge, which have ferry and bus connections (respectively) to Staten Island. My point is that since I don't live in a bubble, I'm going to have to go to Manhattan from time to time, and when I do, the (R) is one of the lines I'm most likely to use.

 

Ooooh, yeah, that's real snarky with the italicizing of "opinions". :rolleyes: In any case, I think most of us can agree that the (N) runs better than the (R).

 

Bold text - Unnecessary, I had opinions in italics because some people here don't seem to understand the word enough to utilize it.

 

I have a friend that lives in Staten Island and him and his friends speak of the (1) more really, but to each their own on that one.

 

The only one I can merely agree with you is the last statement and that's about it.

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Also, I guess I'll input my opinions, I never liked the (R), feels like once I miss the (R) I have to wait AGES for the next one.  Realistically it's only about 10-15 minutes for my next one to arrive but still..feels like an eternity for it to arrive.  This is based off of morning rush and the afternoon hours for me at DeKalb Ave and Whitehall Street or City Hall (If I take the (1) to South Ferry).  The (N) on the other hand I had better luck with; when I worked around 8 Ave for a while, I always caught an (N).  It may not have the best frequency then the usual (6) but it was better than that (R).  Probably the one thing I hated most when coming back was missing the transfer to the (B) at DeKalb with the (R) but on the bright side, an empty (Q) pulls up within 5 minutes or so.  No biggie.

lol... I always felt the same way! Doesn't help that the train crawls to boot and the doors take forever to close.  Maybe when they replace those R46's on that line things will get better, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I still remember this from 16 or 17 years ago.  Getting on a Brighton D at 34st around 2am, getting into Dekalb with an N doors open, closing its doors while we are pulling in, making us wait for the next N to then get on the next B (or R) shuttle.  Genius conductor.

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lol... I always felt the same way! Doesn't help that the train crawls to boot and the doors take forever to close.  Maybe when they replace those R46's on that line things will get better, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

I don't really thinks the car type hasn't anything major to do with how well a line does, but that's my view.

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Hehe, reminds me of the weekend G.O. a couple of weeks ago that required Manhattan-bound (N) trains to run express on the Astoria Line. Just as a Manhattan-bound (N) is about to leave Astoria Boulevard, a Ditmars Boulevard-bound (N) shows up, but before the northbound train even opens its doors, the conductor on the Manhattan-bound train shuts his, forcing everyone from the local stations who needed Manhattan-bound service to wait an extra 10+ minutes for the next train. This happened literally each time the trains showed up. It was so wrong on so many levels!! I mean, would it have killed the conductor to wait 1-2 minutes to let extra passengers on board (the train was empty anyway), especially since being rerouted to express actually shortens the travel time?

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Hehe, reminds me of the weekend G.O. a couple of weeks ago that required Manhattan-bound (N) trains to run express on the Astoria Line. Just as a Manhattan-bound (N) is about to leave Astoria Boulevard, a Ditmars Boulevard-bound (N) shows up, but before the northbound train even opens its doors, the conductor on the Manhattan-bound train shuts his, forcing everyone from the local stations who needed Manhattan-bound service to wait an extra 10+ minutes for the next train. This happened literally each time the trains showed up. It was so wrong on so many levels!! I mean, would it have killed the conductor to wait 1-2 minutes to let extra passengers on board (the train was empty anyway), especially since being rerouted to express actually shortens the travel time?

I don't want to make light of what you observed but there is/was a rule in RTO about C/Rs closing their doors within 15 seconds of the starting lights being displayed. Since those lights are controlled by supervision perhaps your scorn is mis-directed. If one has the chance to "do the right thing" or be written up and subject to disciplinary action which path would you choose? I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here, nothing personal. Let's just say I can recall many times being ordered by radio or station PA to close down and proceed. Carry on.

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I don't want to make light of what you observed but there is/was a rule in RTO about C/Rs closing their doors within 15 seconds of the starting lights being displayed. Since those lights are controlled by supervision perhaps your scorn is mis-directed. If one has the chance to "do the right thing" or be written up and subject to disciplinary action which path would you choose? I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here, nothing personal. Let's just say I can recall many times being ordered by radio or station PA to close down and proceed. Carry on.

 

Exactly excellent point.

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These customers need to realize that those countdown clocks aren't set in stone. Trains leaving the terminal will get pushes all the time, especially when both pockets are full and there is a third train waiting to get in. I wonder if the people complaining about a train leaving when it says "in 1 minute" on the screens are the same ones who complain about the train TAKING FOREVER to move into the last station?

 

Also, most of the time when a GO has a train re-routed to the express track, it ISN'T going to save any time. That's why this weekend when all N/B (D)'s are going up the express from 145 to Tremont, we aren't even going to use a supplement, because those trains are expected to get to 205 at the same time they would have if they went local, since there IS going to be flagging for the adjacent track (which requires the train to move at 10 mph or less through the work area).

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I disagree with a "push" - Why should a train leave the terminal 3 minutes early and have people wait 13 minutes for the next train, just so that people waiting to enter a terminal can save 1 or 2 minutes?  I don't mind waiting 5+ minutes to enter a terminal, but I *DO* mind if I miss a train because of a "push" and have to wait 13 minutes for the next train.

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