Montague tube to close for more than a year for repairs

[LTA1992]

wally, why do you feel the need to REPEAT everything you said when your try to justify your plans. We know what your cockamamie idea is, we don't want to read it again...

 

 

 

 

 

It goes back to them not likeing change. They want the subway frozen as they knew it. No changes in routes or equipment.

Routes? Frozen? Maybe on the A division.....

 

B division is the slut of the agency.

[ttcsubwayfan]

B division is the slut of the agency.

 

[Snowblock]

Yes, that is true, however, the changes I wrote were again specifically done to cut off any loudmouth pols from trying to "grandstand" and win votes by then taking the to court to force them to keep all stations (other than those in lower Manhattan where they are ways to work around the Broadway line being shut down) open at all times in some way or form.  

 

Why in the fsck do you give a crap what the POLS think????? You think they actually ride the trains?

 

http://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.mta.info%2Fnyct%2Fservice%2FR_ServiceChanges.htm&h=QAQEq04fn&s=1

 

Here's the official service change.

 

Thank you, and this is EXACTLY what I told this board yesterday. I don't see any reference to the on there, do you?

 

Also, the ALWAYS terminates at 36 St overnight. Nothing is changing there.

[R10 2952]

Looking at the track map, I can't see any option other than the MTA splitting service. After all, if they chose to run the over the bridge at all times, they'd be effectively cutting off service to five stations along the line...

[Kamen Rider]

Routes? Frozen? Maybe on the A division.....

 

B division is the slut of the agency.

That's... sort of the point I was among for, I think...

 

They want the subway to stay a certain way. For a long time is was people wanting the B and D to switch back in Brooklyn. Now people are busting to get the W back and for the return of Nassua-West End service.

[AndrewJC]

the one thing i cant understand, even tho i am no expert in how their electrical stuff work down there, why cant they shut one tube down and the other can be used. The wall is so thick that it wont slow down the worker or train. Could that work?

 

Even if it could work, it would double the duration of the work.

 

  The  can handle the crowds with some adjusments during the late night. No need to extend the  to Brooklyn.

 

What adjustments during the late night? N trains aren't crowded through the tunnel overnight - the 4 can easily carry everybody from the N with no adjustments at all. And many overnight N riders are better off on the bridge anyhow; they'll happily stay on the faster N.

 

This will be a service increase in the overnight hours (with additional transfers to 2, 4, F and A trains) and offer a one-seat ride to Midtown via the Manhattan Bridge for weekend users.  I hope they keep the same 10 minute schedule as before on weekends, since weekend R trains are timed to *exactly* meet the N at 59th and D at 36th.

 

However I'm concerned with the reduced 10 minute headways during weekday rush-hours that led to massive overcrowding on trains and at the Atlantic Ave transfer point.  If they could keep the 6 minute headways (or even 8 minute headways) during rush-hours, that would greatly ease overcrowding.  I'm sure they don't need a full 10 minutes to turn a train around at Court St.  (Can't send these R rush-hour trains over the bridge since there is always massive congestion on the D and N tracks where trains come to a stop multiple times between 36th and Atlantic.)

 

I'm not sure what you're saying about overnight hours.

 

But rush hour R trains will be running at 7.5 minute headways - see http://www.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs/130605-Montague-Greenpoint-briefing.pdf (page 23).

 

I agree with your assessment, but isn't the already at capacity particularly at rush hour??

 

From the Bronx and upper Manhattan, yes. From Brooklyn, not even close. None of the subway lines out of Brooklyn, aside from the L (which is not relevant here), are close to capacity.

 

The definitely needs to head to Brooklyn now all times except nights.

 

No it doesn't. Off-peak R ridership through the tube is extremely low. The 2/3/4/A/C can easily handle a very slight increase in riders off the R.

 

Its too bad the South side of the Manny B. doesn't have a connection to Nassau St anymore. The <R> could have made a comeback from 95 to Broad via the Bridge

 

If R trains could run over the bridge, they'd run uptown to Queens. The R is going to Court St. on weekdays both because there isn't capacity at DeKalb and to serve Jay and Court themselves. Running trains over the bridge to Broad would accomplish nothing (and would get in the way of the J/Z, to boot).

 

I thought the MTA is short on R160 cars (only 10% in reserve), and they had more R68/R68a cars in reserve

 

The R uses cars based at Jamaica, and Jamaica doesn't have any R68's or R68A's. If the R68's or R68A's were to show up somewhere unusual, it would be the N or Q, not the R.

 

14 months is a really long time to close the tube.it looks like this tunnel got almost as much damage as the South Ferry New station terminal.also the MTA said they had another option was to close the tunnel every weekend for 38 months.Would that have been better than this? What your take?

 

Absolutely not.  http://www.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs/130605-Montague-Greenpoint-briefing.pdf - see pages 21-22.

 

The MTA powerpoint makes it rather clear where we will see shutdowns. 14th and 53rd will be very interesting when shutdown to say the least.

 

Shouldn't be a big deal if they're on weekends, but if they're on weekdays, I certainly agree. Frankly, they all look pretty challenging for weekday shutdowns.

 

I don't understand the weekend service plan for the R. I mean can they really get away with closing those stations just to run the R over the bridge? And isn't it better off to have people transfer to the N/Q as they would do anyway? I don't see any issue with a split R service. Everything seems to be covered just minus the direct Brooklyn-Manhattan run and there's plenty of alternatives with the IRT.

 

Only City Hall, Cortlandt, and Rector will be fully closed on weekends, and each of those stations is a block away from a station on a different line. Ridership to Lower Manhattan is much lower on weekends than on weekdays.

[Roadcruiser1]

Looking at the track map, I can't see any option other than the MTA splitting service. After all, if they chose to run the over the bridge at all times, they'd be effectively cutting off service to five stations along the line...

 

They actually can. There are a whole other ton of subway lines that run down there as well that could be options. There are the and  lines. They can definitely handle the passengers from the . 

[Guest Lance]

In my opinion, the R should remain split on weekends. Not all the time though; only when work on the Culver line forces F trains to bypass 4 Av in one direction so riders don't have to jump over hurdles to transfer between the F and R.

[AndrewJC]

when they close the montague during the weekends also when they have the running via the bridge i propose a shuttle bus that runs from canal to whitehall to appease the people dependent on the in the lower manhattan and would complain about the alternatives as they did after the hurricane and would complain to their politicans.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps/user?uid=218345366120084192601&hl=en&gl=us

 

There is a shuttle bus already. It's called the 4 train. It stops within a few blocks of the R train at each of the closed stations.

 

An actual bus would be expensive to operate and would carry virtually no riders, since the 4 train would be much faster. The 4 costs nothing additional to operate, since it's already operating.

 

yeah your right but those people screamed foul when they had lost their ferry connection. but the have the also i figured giving them an additional alternative incase they dont like that.

 

When South Ferry was closed, ferry riders who commuted to work on the 1 train had to walk 8 minutes to Rector, every single day. Whitehall will only be closed on weekends, and Bowling Green is much closer to South Ferry than Rector is.

 

Montague is often closed for weekend GO's (in one direction or in both), and there's never a shuttle bus.

[iGeMiNix]

This is needed for awhile now. As other mentioned, service on the through the Montague tube have been very unreliable for the past few months. I was honestly surprised when service was restored by December after seeing the pictures of that tunnel post Sandy.

 

Like other people said, the weekend service is probably going to be something that might be confusing for some commuters. Might have been probably better just to have it better to run it in 2 sections all the time.

 

I wonder if they are going to update the station signs for the or are they just going to leave it the way it is for this long term project.

[BreeddekalbL]

There is a shuttle bus already. It's called the 4 train. It stops within a few blocks of the R train at each of the closed stations.

 

An actual bus would be expensive to operate and would carry virtually no riders, since the 4 train would be much faster. The 4 costs nothing additional to operate, since it's already operating.

 

 

When South Ferry was closed, ferry riders who commuted to work on the 1 train had to walk 8 minutes to Rector, every single day. Whitehall will only be closed on weekends, and Bowling Green is much closer to South Ferry than Rector is.

 

Montague is often closed for weekend GO's (in one direction or in both), and there's never a shuttle bus.

 

you were a little late cause i cancelled my plan realizing the area and all that stuff

[LTA1992]

That's... sort of the point I was among for, I think...

 

They want the subway to stay a certain way. For a long time is was people wanting the B and D to switch back in Brooklyn. Now people are busting to get the W back and for the return of Nassua-West End service.

 

People would get bored with that type of system in a day.

[Roadcruiser1]

People would get bored with that type of system in a day.

 

They are just foaming? Hell they are the type of people that want the subway to look the way it was in the 1930's. Why not just bring back the Third Avenue Elevated if you want to appease them?

[8thAveExpress]

 

The R uses cars based at Jamaica, and Jamaica doesn't have any R68's or R68A's. If the R68's or R68A's were to show up somewhere unusual, it would be the N or Q, not the R.

I know that, but wouldn't the Brooklyn portion of the use trains from Coney Island?  Or am I totally off with that?

[PinePower]

Shouldn't the run local on 4th when the stops at Court St? Ppl at those 6 4th ave lcl stations affected are not going to be happy with losing a one seat ride. Also maybe additional Xbus service from Bay Ridge.

[LTA1992]

They are just foaming? Hell they are the type of people that want the subway to look the way it was in the 1930's. Why not just bring back the Third Avenue Elevated if you want to appease them?

Completely missed the joke.

[pjbr40]

Delays

 Posted: 06/05/2013  8:06PM


 

Due to signal problems at Court St, expect delays in southbound  train service. 

Allow additional travel time.

[AndrewJC]

I know that, but wouldn't the Brooklyn portion of the use trains from Coney Island?  Or am I totally off with that?

 

Possibly, but I doubt it - remember that the R will be running as a single line on weekends, and cars won't necessarily end up on Monday morning where they started out Friday night.

 

Shouldn't the run local on 4th when the stops at Court St? Ppl at those 6 4th ave lcl stations affected are not going to be happy with losing a one seat ride. Also maybe additional Xbus service from Bay Ridge.

 

Not many people ride all the way through from 4th Avenue to points north of the bridge - most transfer already. Those who don't transfer will now have a single transfer to reach the 2, 3, 4, 5, A, B, C, D, F, N, or Q train - four of those are simple cross-platform transfers. Yes, it's an additional hassle, but it's a minor one.

 

If the N ran local, it would have to merge with the B and Q at DeKalb. The congestion would be horrific. All three lines would need to have their service reduced.

 

Express buses are very expensive to operate, and I doubt that this change will drive many people onto them.

[RtrainBlues]

This actually sounds well-thought-out.  I don't think Midtown riders will notice any difference.  Lower Manhattan riders can learn to ride in the front of the R train to make the transfer to the IRT quicker.  Most weekend riders do not want lower Manhattan, so they now get quicker direct express service to Midtown (the few that do want lower Manhattan have the choice of a #2, 3 or 4 at Atlantic.)  Hopefully the "holding lights" will still be used at 36th St (especially during evenings and weekends when trains run less frequently) to connect with downtown D and N trains.

1. Peak hour R service will be slightly reduced due to track capacity limitations (8 TPH vs 10 TPH), and Off-peak service R frequencies will be unchanged.  [The prior 10 minute rush-hour headways caused massive overcrowding on trains and at Atlantic Ave, but with 8 TPH this shouldn’t be an issue.  Good to know that evenings will still have 10 to 12 minute headways, same as before.]
2. Weekend R service (via Manhattan bridge) provides a faster ride for some riders traveling between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

I misunderstood the late night service, and now realize the R shuttle will only run between 36th and 95th late nights.  As an aside, I wonder if this means they won’t have to “lay up” R trains on the southbound express tracks between 36^th and 59^th during late evenings/overnights during the reconstruction of the tunnel.  It’s very frustrating to miss a Bay Ridge R train (and wait 15+ minutes for the next one) since your N express has to cross over to the local tracks at 36th St between 10:30pm and 11:30pm.

[Brooklyn]

In my opinion, the R should remain split on weekends. Not all the time though; only when work on the Culver line forces F trains to bypass 4 Av in one direction so riders don't have to jump over hurdles to transfer between the F and R.

I agree that the should remain split during the weekends too.

 

But splitting up the R will hopefully mean more CONSISTENT service. 

 

Also, as a regular N and Q rider, I really don't want to see the R running on the bridge.  Even with lower TPH, this service change will back things up on the line--I know about this. During G.Os, the R is sometimes rerouted over the bridge. This almost always results in delays at Dekalb and Canal--it has for YEARS. No need to degrade N and Q service unnecessarily.

 

My personal opinion is that the should remain SPLIT on weekends. If not, no R in Manhattan and Queens--just in Brooklyn (Court to 95th). The N and Q can pick up the slack--both going local after Canal. They can both go to Astoria. The R on QB can be replaced by the or have the go local. Simple and no confusion.

 

I would also run the to supplement the Lex Line--5-6 TPH should do the trick.

[PinePower]

Possibly, but I doubt it - remember that the R will be running as a single line on weekends, and cars won't necessarily end up on Monday morning where they started out Friday night.

 

 

Not many people ride all the way through from 4th Avenue to points north of the bridge - most transfer already. Those who don't transfer will now have a single transfer to reach the 2, 3, 4, 5, A, B, C, D, F, N, or Q train - four of those are simple cross-platform transfers. Yes, it's an additional hassle, but it's a minor one.

 

If the N ran local, it would have to merge with the B and Q at DeKalb. The congestion would be horrific. All three lines would need to have their service reduced.

 

Express buses are very expensive to operate, and I doubt that this change will drive many people onto them.

 

I understand, well at the least hopefully across the platform transfers will be held when possible for the with the and .

[Orion VII 4 Life]

I agree that the should remain split during the weekends too.

 

But splitting up the R will hopefully mean more CONSISTENT service. 

 

Also, as a regular N and Q rider, I really don't want to see the R running on the bridge.  Even with lower TPH, this service change will back things up on the line--I know about this. During G.Os, the R is sometimes rerouted over the bridge. This almost always results in delays at Dekalb and Canal--it has for YEARS. No need to degrade N and Q service unnecessarily.

 

My personal opinion is that the should remain SPLIT on weekends. If not, no R in Manhattan and Queens--just in Brooklyn (Court to 95th). The N and Q can pick up the slack--both going local after Canal. They can both go to Astoria. The R on QB can be replaced by the or have the go local. Simple and no confusion.

 

I would also run the to supplement the Lex Line--5-6 TPH should do the trick.

over the bridge on a weekend has caused some trouble in the past, and that's only been done in 1 direction so far IIRC. Your ideas aren't so bad, folks probably won't like the local every weekend though.

[Brooklyn]

over the bridge on a weekend has caused some trouble in the past, and that's only been done in 1 direction so far IIRC. Your ideas aren't so bad, folks probably won't like the local every weekend though.

 

There have been instances where the was sent over the bridge in both directions--hell resulted: delay, delay, delay..... trust me--I have been delayed A LOT because of that. Sometimes I cannot understand why these dispatchers are so slow sometimes. Oh well. A local N and Q would take care of Broadway (north of Canal).  No need making that service unreliable by adding the R.

 

It's funny, but sometimes less is more. If I can keep a line on its own tracks, I do it. Sometimes, the delays and problems that result from merging aren't worth it.

 

 

A round the clock from Court to 95th st in BK would free the up to serve Manhattan and Queens. None of that silly shuttle business from 36th st. No switching, no BS. The can be free and stay on its schedule and stay on its own tracks. So can the . The local stops along the R will be VERY thankful.

 

Doing this will keep CONSISTENT service...I also want that to stop at jay st...this will be extremely helpful when the and are "diverted". This will also act as a transfer point for 6th av riders to get their 4th av train--no such thing as too many options. 

 

I agree about the train....but there were times last year when it went local during the weekends. But another solution would be to have the run. The M would be very helpful--Bushwick and Williamsburg residents will be happy. It will also assist some VERY spotty weekend service.

[Wallyhorse]

I agree that the should remain split during the weekends too.

 

But splitting up the R will hopefully mean more CONSISTENT service. 

 

Also, as a regular N and Q rider, I really don't want to see the R running on the bridge.  Even with lower TPH, this service change will back things up on the line--I know about this. During G.Os, the R is sometimes rerouted over the bridge. This almost always results in delays at Dekalb and Canal--it has for YEARS. No need to degrade N and Q service unnecessarily.

 

My personal opinion is that the should remain SPLIT on weekends. If not, no R in Manhattan and Queens--just in Brooklyn (Court to 95th). The N and Q can pick up the slack--both going local after Canal. They can both go to Astoria. The R on QB can be replaced by the or have the go local. Simple and no confusion.

 

I would also run the to supplement the Lex Line--5-6 TPH should do the trick.

Lets just say I wouldn't be shocked if the pols and downtown Brooklyn merchants take the to court to force them to have the run to Court Street at all times to keep transfers between the and (Court Street) and (Jay Street-Metrotech) in place at all times.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Another effect of this shutdown: what happens when there's a G.O. or a service disruption on the bridge? Just food for thought.

 

This topic is worthy of its own discussion. The post was promoted to an article for the front page. Thanks for posting!

Thanks Harry!