Montague tube to close for more than a year for repairs

[RtrainBlues]

Weekend R service over the bridge thankfully gives R riders a one-seat ride to Manhattan (especially if they miss a connection to a N or D train).  Slight delays can happen when conductors make long-winded announcements at Canal St (Brooklyn-bound) about a reroute.  If conductors make announcements only in between stops and immediately shut the doors at Canal St, there will be no delays.  The bridge can easily handle 3 trains on weekends.  Worst case if there's a delay or G.O., the uptown R can run via the D over the bridge and then reroute to the F or M line to Queens.

[itmaybeokay]

They do need to do this shutdown of the tube, I don't doubt that - but I'm concerned about the reduction in rush hour headways. QBL local headways are bad enough - if we would assume hypothetically that every train were loaded to "capacity" as is, my math shows an aditional 625 people on every AM rush R train just by reducing 2TPH. 

 

We'll see what happens, and I know it would be very hard for them to add trains (poor line shares trackage with 4 others :-( ) but they might need to do something. 

[Wallyhorse]

And we already have pols complaining about this, which is WHY I would have gone the route I did:

http://www.brooklynews.com/060513-mta-to-south-brooklynites/

[Guest Lance]

Nowhere in that article did I see Gentile call for a revival of the W or an extension of the 6 to the Barclays Ctr and/or points beyond.

 

He does have a point. Somewhat. Obviously service will have to be beefed up on adjacent lines; there's no way around that. But his call of lowering the fares on the nearby bus lines is impossible. Not only from a practical standpoint, but a political one as well. What happens during the next major storm knocks out something? Or even more likely, what's to stop another politician from asking for (demanding) the same thing when the line(s) their constituents use are closed for weekend maintenance? They don't want to set a bad precedence.

[LTA1992]

I just read the article and.......REALLY DUDE? You really put that "plan" in the comments? Really? Thanks for the early morning laugh. You don't get a cookie though.

[Kamen Rider]

He focuses on trying to placate one tiny problem in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

Wally, do the world a favor and be quiet...

[Snowblock]

If there's one thing I've learned from years of following Wallyhorse's nonsense, it's that he REALLY hates having the terminate at Brooklyn Bridge 24/7

[Brooklyn]

Lets just say I wouldn't be shocked if the pols and downtown Brooklyn merchants take the to court to force them to have the run to Court Street at all times to keep transfers between the and (Court Street) and (Jay Street-Metrotech) in place at all times.

I don't think it will get to that point, but I think the service should remain split to keep the and trains from being delayed and keep CONSISTENT service in Manhattan along Broadway. It will also help when there are G.Os along Culver.

 

 

Weekend R service over the bridge thankfully gives R riders a one-seat ride to Manhattan (especially if they miss a connection to a N or D train).  Slight delays can happen when conductors make long-winded announcements at Canal St (Brooklyn-bound) about a reroute.  If conductors make announcements only in between stops and immediately shut the doors at Canal St, there will be no delays.  The bridge can easily handle 3 trains on weekends.  Worst case if there's a delay or G.O., the uptown R can run via the D over the bridge and then reroute to the F or M line to Queens.

Trust me, I know that 4th av stretch. People will make that transfer at Barclay Center or Metrotech if they have to. They have the choice of waiting for the Q across the platform at Dekalb.

 

As for the delays, years of riding when the goes over the bridge equals delays. I know this. In theory, yes, the bridge SHOULD be able to handle three train lines. But reality is a different story. Anyway, the and can handle Broadway.

 

But again, I like to keep things simple. The terminating at Court St-95th (all times) will help a tremendous deal. This will free up the and . This will keep options available in case of delays along Broadway or on the bridge. This will give 6th av riders 2 options to get the --at Barclay center or at Jay st. People getting off the lex line will have the the choice of two lines at Barclay.

 

Personally, I would keep the weekend R running at 7-8 min intervals during the busier times and 15-20 mins intervals during the late night. The line would cover only 16 stops, so this shouldn't be hard.

 

[Kamen Rider]

One thing of note that's been ignored, this also now means ALL equipment moves into and out of the BMT Eastern will be through the Chrystie Cut.

[paulrivera]

Hey, isn't there a passageway built between Cortlandt and Fulton Street? Maybe they should open it and/or offer at least an "out-of-system" transfer. Knowing some of the folks that use the subway, they will forget to get off at Canal or 14th to go to Brooklyn.

 

IDK about the Cortlandt end of the passageway, but there is a bit of wiggle room on the Fulton end to reconfigure the fare control area to reclaim the passageway as an "in-system" transfer. But then again, it would only be open 5 days a week anyway...

 

Edit: Just realized the elevator they put goes from the street, through the mezzanine, and the passageway. Hmm, may not be so easy...

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Hey, isn't there a passageway built between Cortlandt and Fulton Street? Maybe they should open it and/or offer at least an "out-of-system" transfer. Knowing some of the folks that use the subway, they will forget to get off at Canal or 14th to go to Brooklyn.

 

IDK about the Cortlandt end of the passageway, but there is a bit of wiggle room on the Fulton end to reconfigure the fare control area to reclaim the passageway as an "in-system" transfer. But then again, it would only be open 5 days a week anyway...

 

Edit: Just realized the elevator they put goes from the street, through the mezzanine, and the passageway. Hmm, may not be so easy...

Move the turnstiles to the street and bam.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

To solve the problem of reduced QBL headways, would it make sense to have some queens-bound trains begin at 57-7 to supplement those from Whitehall? They could either short turn coming from queens or lay up in the area

[bobtehpanda]

I wonder why the southern section is only running to 36th instead of court weekday overnights.

 

Doesn't it already do that weeknights?

 

Looking at the track map, I can't see any option other than the MTA splitting service. After all, if they chose to run the over the bridge at all times, they'd be effectively cutting off service to five stations along the line...

 

DeKalb has no room.

 

And we already have pols complaining about this, which is WHY I would have gone the route I did:

 

http://www.brooklynews.com/060513-mta-to-south-brooklynites/

 

These are the same pols in Albany who don't say a peep whenever Albany or the city refuse to increase funding for the MTA even though more people are using it (and in some cases, take away money.) You get what you pay for.

[CDTA]

@Wallyhorse 

Forgive me if there's something i'm missing here, but HOW can anybody sue the MTA to keep a station open? When a library branch closes, people don't sue the NYPL. 

[AndrewJC]

over the bridge on a weekend has caused some trouble in the past, and that's only been done in 1 direction so far IIRC. Your ideas aren't so bad, folks probably won't like the local every weekend though.

 

It's often done in both directions. I've been over the bridge many times on such weekends when everything has been running fine - it's only 18 tph. When things don't run fine, it's because of other issues, like excessive flagging.

 

Broadway is tight with only two services. Queens Blvd. is very tight with only two services. There's no reason to deprive them of all three.

 

Nowhere in that article did I see Gentile call for a revival of the W or an extension of the 6 to the Barclays Ctr and/or points beyond.

 

He does have a point. Somewhat. Obviously service will have to be beefed up on adjacent lines; there's no way around that. But his call of lowering the fares on the nearby bus lines is impossible. Not only from a practical standpoint, but a political one as well. What happens during the next major storm knocks out something? Or even more likely, what's to stop another politician from asking for (demanding) the same thing when the line(s) their constituents use are closed for weekend maintenance? They don't want to set a bad precedence.

 

Service isn't going to be beefed up on adjacent lines, because those adjacent lines have the capacity to absorb the R's relatively small ridership through the tube. Remember, people aren't going to all pile onto one line - they're going to distribute themselves between the A, B, C, D, F, N, Q, 2, 3, 4, and 5, depending on where exactly they're going.

 

If there's one thing I've learned from years of following Wallyhorse's nonsense, it's that he REALLY hates having the terminate at Brooklyn Bridge 24/7

 

Perhaps he'd be happier if it were cut back to 125th at night, as it ran until the late 90's.

 

Hey, isn't there a passageway built between Cortlandt and Fulton Street? Maybe they should open it and/or offer at least an "out-of-system" transfer. Knowing some of the folks that use the subway, they will forget to get off at Canal or 14th to go to Brooklyn.

 

IDK about the Cortlandt end of the passageway, but there is a bit of wiggle room on the Fulton end to reconfigure the fare control area to reclaim the passageway as an "in-system" transfer. But then again, it would only be open 5 days a week anyway...

 

Edit: Just realized the elevator they put goes from the street, through the mezzanine, and the passageway. Hmm, may not be so easy...

 

They'll remember to get off at 14th or Canal the second day.

 

Anybody with an unlimited can get off at Whitehall and walk to Bowling Green - they're half a block apart.

[peacemak3r]

Damn I really enjoyed taking the to class/work over the (2)/(3)...I guess now I have to deal with it for one semester.

[Wallyhorse]

@Wallyhorse 

Forgive me if there's something i'm missing here, but HOW can anybody sue the MTA to keep a station open? When a library branch closes, people don't sue the NYPL. 

Different situation:

 

This is because of what will be going on late nights and weekends.  It's called grandstanding. 

 

Even if the pols have little chance of actually making the do things in court (like what I noted), they would do it just to show their constituents they are doing what they can in the eyes of some, especially downtown Brooklyn merchants.

[Guest Lance]

Let them grandstand. As was mentioned previously, the affects of Sandy are still relatively fresh in people's minds, so they'll put up with this closure for now. As for later on, we'll see, though it's not like they'll have much other choice then either. However, your "ideas" to make these politicians, who likely haven't nor ever will actually ride the subway, happy will wind up helping no one and putting an unnecessary strain on the system.

[Grand Concourse]

:insert head slamming against wall or desk gif/pic: that's pretty much how I feel every time he brings up 'what would the pols think'.

[realizm]

Man, as soon as I saw a post from Wallyhorse, I knew there was going to be some crazy chit coming. I'm surprised there was no mention of something running to the inner loop in that post! Okay, I hate to humor you, but I gotta ask - how is calling it the in Manhattan going to make the BROOKLYN customers HAPPY????

LOL. I didn't get that either, from quickly skimming through the posts.

 

Wow I'm out of the loop since I took a break. Dang. A Montauge St tunnel closure for an entire year? Wondering how the Manny B and the Dekalb interlocking area will even handle the diversions. It's going to be a living nightmare. Bottlenecking and delays galore.

 

Very much needed regardless of the inconveniences it will cause for riders. The saltwater corrosion on the tunnel infrastructure and signaling apparatus, etc etc must have really done some seriously massive damage. I guess the 24 hr around the clock maintainance in the tunnel previously that was carried out by the MTA signals div after Sandy just did'nt cut it.

[Around the Horn]

LOL. I didn't get that either, from quickly skimming through the posts.

 

Wow I'm out of the loop since I took a break. Dang. A Montauge St tunnel closure for an entire year? Wondering how the Manny B and the Dekalb interlocking area will even handle the diversions. It's going to be a living nightmare. Bottlenecking and delays galore.

 

Very much needed regardless of the inconveniences it will cause for riders. The saltwater corrosion on the tunnel infrastructure and signaling apparatus, etc etc must have really done some seriously massive damage. I guess the 24 hr around the clock maintainance in the tunnel previously that was carried out by the MTA signals div after Sandy just did'nt cut it.

they probably rushed it...

[realizm]

they probably rushed it...

Could be.

 

..... or it must be just the fact that the maintainers, track workers, engineers etc never anticipated that the scope of damage was going to be this bad necessitating a closure. Saltwater corrosion, as far as I know, is a type of damage that progresses slowly after the initial inflicted damage on infrastructure. In fact IIRC, MTA officials did anticipate that the situation will progressively become worse over time in statements tha was published by the press in the previous months. Now they cannot continue to get away with it. I'm assuming that the damage from the corrosion now digressed to damage that is irreverible unless they do major repairs and literally replace the existing signaling and other electrical components and start from scratch with new equipment

 

So it makes sense why they must close down the tube for some mean and serious repair and replacement of components in this tunnel. Personally, this caught me by total suprise (the announcement) but as I think about it I can see why.

[bobtehpanda]

Could be.

 

..... or it must be just the fact that the maintainers, track workers, engineers etc never anticipated that the scope of damage was going to be this bad necessitating a closure. Saltwater corrosion, as far as I know, is a type of damage that progresses slowly after the initial inflicted damage on infrastructure. In fact IIRC, MTA officials did anticipate that the situation will progressively become worse over time in statements tha was published by the press in the previous months. Now they cannot continue to get away with it. I'm assuming that the damage from the corrosion now digressed to damage that is irreverible unless they do major repairs and literally replace the existing signaling and other electrical components and start from scratch with new equipment

 

So it makes sense why they must close down the tube for some mean and serious repair and replacement of components in this tunnel. Personally, this caught me by total suprise (the announcement) but as I think about it I can see why.

 

This is the sort of thing that CTA in Chicago has been doing for decades - shutting down a train line for a couple of months and rip out everything and replace it.

 

Obviously due to the amount of kvetching that wouldn't be possible here on a regular basis, but yeah, I don't think that it's disputed that the closure is needed - what's disputed is the amount of relief service needed (which, in my opinion, isn't particularly high, due to the fact that Montague isn't heavily used and the large amount of alternate transportation options nearby)

[realizm]

This is the sort of thing that CTA in Chicago has been doing for decades - shutting down a train line for a couple of months and rip out everything and replace it.

 

Obviously due to the amount of kvetching that wouldn't be possible here on a regular basis, but yeah, I don't think that it's disputed that the closure is needed - what's disputed is the amount of relief service needed (which, in my opinion, isn't particularly high, due to the fact that Montague isn't heavily used and the large amount of alternate transportation options nearby)

 

Yes... good points once more.

 

The heck? I'm out of reps already?

 

Anyway, yeah, on the fact highlighted on the second paragraph as far as I know the tube is not heavily used (What was the TPH on the ? 6 TPH off peak, 10 TPH rush hours?) But the catch to this is that the is pretty packed with commuters during rish hours with commuters coming from downtown Manhattan. This is going to be a major challenge for ther MTA and at least for the first few weekks or months at best, we all will see some serious delays and confusion even with the supplemental service as posted in another thread on this subject if I read the posts correctly. Until the MTA iron all the bugs out sort of speak.

[N4 Via Merrick Rd]

Well let's see what will happen. But yes this is gonna be a headache. But yes I suggest that the runs at all times now.