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RestrictOnTheHanger

Montague tube to close for more than a year for repairs

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Wow I'm out of the loop since I took a break. Dang. A Montauge St tunnel closure for an entire year? Wondering how the Manny B and the Dekalb interlocking area will even handle the diversions. It's going to be a living nightmare. Bottlenecking and delays galore.

 

On weekdays, the bridge and DeKalb interlocking will be operating exactly as it does now. The R won't be going over the bridge - it will be terminating at Court.

 

On weekends and at night, more trains than usual will run over the bridge, but that's pretty common during GO's anyway.

 

Anyway, yeah, on the fact highlighted on the second paragraph as far as I know the tube is not heavily used (What was the TPH on the (R) ? 6 TPH off peak, 10 TPH rush hours?) But the catch to this is that the (R) is pretty packed with commuters during rish hours with commuters coming from downtown Manhattan. This is going to be a major challenge for ther MTA and at least for the first few weekks or months at best, we all will see some serious delays and confusion even with the supplemental service as posted in another thread on this subject if I read the posts correctly. Until the MTA iron all the bugs out sort of speak.

 

The Montague tube carries far fewer passengers, by far, than any of the other East River crossings: in fall 2010, only 59,675 per day, about half of the next-smallest crossing, the Williamsburg Bridge, at 118,869. See http://www.nymtc.org/files/hub_bound/2010_HUB_BOUND_TRAVEL_DATA.pdf - page I-10.

 

Well let's see what will happen. But yes this is gonna be a headache. But yes I suggest that the (5) runs at all times now.

 

Why? Does the R on weekends (or the N at night) carry so many people to and from Lower Manhattan that the 2, 3, 4, A, and C won't be able to absorb them?

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On weekdays, the bridge and DeKalb interlocking will be operating exactly as it does now. The R won't be going over the bridge - it will be terminating at Court.

 

On weekends and at night, more trains than usual will run over the bridge, but that's pretty common during GO's anyway.

 

I see. GO's aside, basically the same diversions on the (R) as was done after the damage was done with the superstorm. (Difference is the (R) terminating @ Court instead of @ Metrotech.)

Edited by realizm

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Why? Does the R on weekends (or the N at night) carry so many people to and from Lower Manhattan that the 2, 3, 4, A, and C won't be able to absorb them?

After the storm it really was hectic on the weekends without the (5), especially with (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong) there being no (5) service in Manhattan at all most of those weekends since the TA got back to their usual GO games right away. Time will tell, but in the end I see them running the (5) to Brooklyn on weekends (probably not late nights except maybe to Bowling Green), or at the very least not suspending the (5) in Manhattan every weekend until this is done.

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I really do not want the (5) in Brooklyn on weekends because it only has to access the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line via the Eastern Parkway local tracks, delaying either that train or the (3) as well as the (2) and (4) behind them southbound. Reverse goes true northbound. On weekdays, we already have that issue, especially at rush hour with more trains added. The (5) is the ONLY reason why the Brooklyn IRT are heavily delayed between Nostrand and Franklin Avenues.

 

I have to agree with AndrewJC that (R) riders in Lower Manhattan/Downtown Brooklyn already have the (2)(3)(4)(A)(C) as alternatives.

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Wouldn't the (4) get cut to 12 minute headways if the (5) runs to Brooklyn on weekends? (4) got cut to 8 minute headways during middays when the (5) was extended to Flatbush.

Edited by GreatOne2k

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Can't the MTA do what they usually do when Montague St. tunnel is not in use? Put the (R) over the Manhattan Bridge. Have the (1), (4), &(5) pick up the slack in Lower Manhattan. I think that would be better for (R) riders.

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Can't the MTA do what they usually do when Montague St. tunnel is not in use? Put the (R) over the Manhattan Bridge. Have the (1), (4), &(5) pick up the slack in Lower Manhattan. I think that would be better for (R) riders.

That's what they gonna do on weekends...

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Ohk. I just don't see the sense in having 2 (R) lines

 

I mean, weekdays there's no capacity over the bridge cause of DeKalb, so they can't shove em in through there.

 

You need two (R) lines to serve local stops on Queens Blvd and 4th Av. Running Queens Blvd to Whitehall provides direct Financial District service while relieving the (E)(F)(M), and running to Court St provides transfer opportunities at Atlantic, Metrotech, and Court St/Borough Hall without overloading the (D) and (N).

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Ohk. I just don't see the sense in having 2 (R) lines

 

Well, Bay Ridge only has that line, the manhattan bridge doesn't have any capacity, and Queens Blvd is barely getting by with 2 locals (ONLY the (R) on weekends). Splitting the line becomes the rational choice. 

 

(EDIT: Sorry I didn't see bob's post saying what I was saying better than I said it before I said this, wait what?)

Edited by itmaybeokay
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After the storm it really was hectic on the weekends without the (5), especially with (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong) there being no (5) service in Manhattan at all most of those weekends since the TA got back to their usual GO games right away. Time will tell, but in the end I see them running the (5) to Brooklyn on weekends (probably not late nights except maybe to Bowling Green), or at the very least not suspending the (5) in Manhattan every weekend until this is done.

 

What was hectic? The 4/5/6 is always hectic on weekends, especially north of 14th - but I don't usually encounter much heavy crowding south of 14th. The relatively small number of R riders traveling between Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan shouldn't have trouble fitting onto the 4 train, along with the 2, 3, A, and C.

 

Can't the MTA do what they usually do when Montague St. tunnel is not in use? Put the (R) over the Manhattan Bridge. Have the (1), (4), & (5) pick up the slack in Lower Manhattan. I think that would be better for (R) riders.

 

No, because any 4th Ave. local going over the bridge first has to merge with the Brighton line at DeKalb. The only way it would work would be to reduce Brighton service significantly to make room for the R.

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Some here who suggest that the (R) should go over the MB south tracks on weekdays are completely forgetting that the (Q) is joined by the weekday-only (B) whilst on the Brighton line.

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They could just run (R) in two sections like for superstorm sandy, (Forest Hill-71av to Whitehall) & (95st to Jay or Court St).

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They could just run (R) in two sections like for superstorm sandy, (Forest Hill-71av to Whitehall) & (95st to Jay or Court St).

 

They could. In fact they will! That's exactly what they're doing every weekday. Why not do that full time you ask? Well..

 

So weekends, they're running it over the bridge, which is better for most riders, the lions share of whom are destined for Manhattan and beyond. The bridge reroute does cut two stops in brooklyn, but Court and Jay are both very close to the 2,3,4&5 - which in turn are generally less than a block away from (R) stations in lower manhattan. 

 

On weekdays, however, you don't have the capacity on the Manny B (well, really the capacity at Dekalb, but same difference) to send the (R) over it - also, you have riders from the line's northern section who want to get to Lower Manhattan and don't have a lot of other options. The (2) and the (3) are picking up a hell of a lot of LIRR and NJT commuters at Penn Station, so asking (R) riders to transfer to those lines at 42 isn't a great idea. They could transfer at 14th st to the (4) and the (5), but those trains will be full of commuters from Grand Central and the Upper East Side. 

 

So on weekdays, the financial district kind of needs the R, and the bridge can't host it. On weekends, lower manhattan has enough capacity without the Broadway line, and the bridge has space for the train. 

 

Also, I imagine they're going to need to do a fair amount of getting equipment and supplies into and out of the tube, and with trains relaying directly on each side of it, that is easier said than done. Having some breathing room at the ends of the tube on weekends will allow some time to move gear, supplies, rubble, etc. in and out. 

 

So, that's why the weekday split and the weekend reroute. 

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I wish the R went via the 6th Avenue express tracks on weekends rather than Broadway via bridge.

 

If it did:

 

  • Queens Blvd Local customers would have no access to/from Queens Plaza, or the 8th Av line without backtracking. 

     

  • ​57 st - 6 av would be overserved, as would Lex-63rd, while the very busy Lex-59th would be underserved by only the (N), and would have no access to the Queens Blvd line without an out of system transfer. 
  • The only direct transfer to the Lexington Ave line to/from the (R) would be Bleecker St, which only serves the Local (6) train. 

This isn't like occasional reroutes of the (Q) to 6 av on weekends or nights, when it's terminus is just shifted one block over, still at 57 st. 

There's a whole northern branch of the (R) for whom it is the only weekend local service - just like 4th ave. And, hypothetically, if you were to terminate the (R) at 57th and 6th, and, say, have the (M) run weekends for local service along QBL - now you're serving 6th Av with four trains, 2 local and 2 express, and Broadway with one express and one local. 

 

Also, not for nothing, if you need 6 Av express service, transfer cross platform at Atlantic/Pacific to the (D)

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I wish the R went via the 6th Avenue express tracks on weekends rather than Broadway via bridge.

What's the point of that? And you'd deprive Broadway of a local service. 6th Av is 'fine' with the D and F. Broadway shouldn't lose the R not to mention the confused riders you'll have wondering why the R is going up 6th av instead of Broadway.

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In an emergency, the R can run up 6th Ave and then via 53rd St (like an M train) to connect with Queens Plaza.  Or up 63rd instead.

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In an emergency, the R can run up 6th Ave and then via 53rd St (like an M train) to connect with Queens Plaza.  Or up 63rd instead.

 

I'd say the 63rd Street line as they were doing during sceduled track maintainance etc. or impromptu reroutes due to emergencies and unexpected delays along with similar patterns (although via B'Way and 63rd to the QBL during sceduled maintainance on the 60th St tunnel) on the past weekend GO's. I can't exactly recall the last time planners decided to run the (R) to the QBL via the 53rd St tubes, it must be for a good reason that cannot come to my mind right now as I write this.

 

Can't be because of capacity issues for obvious reasons.

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I wish the R went via the 6th Avenue express tracks on weekends rather than Broadway via bridge.

 

This post is just a ridiculous and foamish proposal, so no.

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I wish the R went via the 6th Avenue express tracks on weekends rather than Broadway via bridge.

 

Atlantic and 34th are pretty convenient transfers, if you ask me.

 

Also, what the hell would be the point of a weekend-only orange (R)? If you're going to have a trunk service pattern, don't make it run ONLY on weekends.

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