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6 Lexington Ave

Is it really SO difficult?

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I think that if it looks like a dump people will treat it like one. Plus, there should be enforcement of the rules. The situation in some stations is unacceptable. New York has a system that is envied not least because of its size, age, history and efficiency. The city should preserve this system as much as possible. I'm sorry but anything else is a lame excuse. And, please some of the stations that are hardly used are in much worse condition that others which are among the most used. The 8 million argument doesn't make sense.

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I think that if it looks like a dump people will treat it like one. Plus, there should be enforcement of the rules. The situation in some stations is unacceptable. New York has a system that is envied not least because of its size, age, history and efficiency. The city should preserve this system as much as possible. I'm sorry but anything else is a lame excuse. And, please some of the stations that are hardly used are in much worse condition that others which are among the most used. The 8 million argument doesn't make sense.

In full agreement.

 

If the stations looked were nicer and more appealing then perception would change and perhaps some riders would be more respectful to the system.

 

The fact that nothing productive is being in regard to this issue is just proof that the MTA doesn't see this as a priority, likely because they don't want to invest the necessary funds.

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"I think that if it looks like a dump people will treat it like one."

 

And that's the crux of the problem right there. People who think it's okay to litter because they see it's already there......because of others who had the same thought. The MTA can't do much if you have a few million people passing through the property on a daily basis and most of them are making the problem worse.

Edited by LTA1992

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"I think that if it looks like a dump people will treat it like one."

 

And that's the crux of the problem right there. People who think it's okay to litter because they see it's already there......because of others who had the same thought. The MTA can't do much if you have a few million people passing through the property on a daily basis and most of them are making the problem worse.

In my opinion it goes further beyond that.

 

The MTA has never done much in regard to preventative maintenance, whether it be structural repairs or just general upkeep. That is still true to this day, and as a result passengers have the mentality that the subways are basically dumps. I'm not going to argue who is at fault for starting that mentality, but I think everyone should contribute to the solution.

 

Passengers can be the neatest people around, but with the MTA doing nothing to keep the system clean nothing will be accomplished.

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Do they still run LIRR trains on it, or is all traffic redirected to the Main Line?

 

Before Sandy, it was once a day. That just got moved to the Main Line post-Sandy, and the LIRR Is actually doing itself a huge favor by passing on the costs of PTC installation and upgrading the grade crossings due to the various accidents and lawsuits.

 

In full agreement.

 

If the stations looked were nicer and more appealing then perception would change and perhaps some riders would be more respectful to the system.

 

The fact that nothing productive is being in regard to this issue is just proof that the MTA doesn't see this as a priority, likely because they don't want to invest the necessary funds.

 

It's one of those chicken-egg problems. The NYPD had this problem with crime too, and then they started their aggressive tactics. Not saying I agree with what they've done, but at some point the MTA is going to have to take the initiative, because the citizens sure as hell won't.

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No. No single organization can handle this much cleaning, at least in the Western Hemisphere. Most public and private companies with this amount of square footage hire private cleaners to do their work (retailers notwithstanding, since they have managers for individual locations on-site at all times).

 

Granted, there's only so much a private cleaner can do - you need security guards to keep the homeless out of the system, and some stations need to be torn down and built anew due to the water damage issues, but the general day-to-day cleanliness can only be handled by contracted cleaning companies (not company, because no company has this sort of scale). If it works for the Port Authority and every piece of infrastructure that they operate, then it can work on the (MTA) with a few minor adjustments.

 

(Also, before any comparisons to Metro-North or LIRR are made, keep in mind that those only receive bursts of passengers right around the time the train rolls in, so there aren't nearly as many people moving in and out, loitering, and littering on a daily basis. Plus, the system's too expensive/the stations are too far away for the city bums to hang out in.)

The way I see it, the cleaners do the bare minimum which is taking out the garbage, if they can manage that.  Cleaning the stations is something that seems to happen once in a while at some of the main stations in the city and the others, I don't think they see any cleaning whatsoever, hence why I standby what I said earlier.  It is one thing if these cleaners were cleaning and were overwhelmed, but from what I witness they do the bare minimum and nothing more, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the stations are filthy.  At the Union Square station, their idea of cleaning is blasting the station with bleach so that as you come up the escalators, you are greeted by the pungent stench of bleach and @ss, because that's exactly what it smells like.

 

With all of the "managers" these cleaners should be doing more to earn their paycheck.  I realize carrying garbage is tiring and all of that, but hey that's what you're getting paid for as "cleaner" to clean, not just carry around garbage, which should include cleaning the platforms.

 

Also, the LIRR and MNRR don't provide overnight service on all routes and some routes see way fewer trains than the most infrequent subway route (I guess the (G)?) like the Lower Montauk for example with only a few trains a day.

Our MetroNorth line (Hudson line) runs most of the day and well into the night in Riverdale with just a few hours being given for cleaning and maintenance and it works just fine.  Then again we don't have bums and vagrants hanging out at the stations.  We also have people that don't leave such a mess.  Dare I say they have a bit more class...  <_<

 

One of the real issues on the subways is people think they've got maid service.  It irks me to the core to see people eating their meals on the train and then using the train as their personal garbage can because of course "someone will clean it up".  The problem is often times that doesn't happen.  I often times wonder how these people leave their homes because if the leave such a mess in public, they must downright disgusting in their homes.  There's a lack of training in our society that's the real problem, not so much crowds or any of that nonsense.  The (MTA) should be much more strict with ensuring that people take their trash with them.  I'm willing to bet that places like Korea or China don't have this problem because it's simply not tolerated.  Start fining people with $50.00 tickets for loitering and see how cleaner the subways will be.  That's the only thing that gets people to stop is when they have to pay for things.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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The way I see it, the cleaners do the bare minimum which is taking out the garbage, if they can manage that.  Cleaning the stations is something that seems to happen once in a while at some of the main stations in the city and the others, I don't think they see any cleaning whatsoever, hence why I standby what I said earlier.  It is one thing if these cleaners were cleaning and were overwhelmed, but from what I witness they do the bare minimum and nothing more, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the stations are filthy.  At the Union Square station, their idea of cleaning is blasting the station with bleach so that as you come up the escalators, you are greeted by the pungent stench of bleach and @ss, because that's exactly what it smells like.

 

With all of the "managers" these cleaners should be doing more to earn their paycheck.  I realize carrying garbage is tiring and all of that, but hey that's what you're getting paid for as "cleaner" to clean, not just carry around garbage, which should include cleaning the platforms.

 

Our MetroNorth line (Hudson line) runs most of the day and well into the night in Riverdale with just a few hours being given for cleaning and maintenance and it works just fine.  Then again we don't have bums and vagrants hanging out at the stations.  We also have people that don't leave such a mess.  Dare I say they have a bit more class...  <_<

 

One of the real issues on the subways is people think they've got maid service.  It irks me to the core to see people eating their meals on the train and then using the train as their personal garbage can because of course "someone will clean it up".  The problem is often times that doesn't happen.  I often times wonder how these people leave their homes because if the leave such a mess in public, they must downright disgusting in their homes.  There's a lack of training in our society that's the real problem, not so much crowds or any of that nonsense.  The (MTA) should be much more strict with ensuring that people take their trash with them.  I'm willing to bet that places like Korea or China don't have this problem because it's simply not tolerated.  Start fining people with $50.00 tickets for loitering and see how cleaner the subways will be.  That's the only thing that gets people to stop is when they have to pay for things.

 

Good luck. You are going to have to adopt Singapore's rule of law to make people in this city listen, but then again it isn't a bad thing.

 

Singapore's rule of law.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg

Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg

Edited by Roadcruiser1
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@Roadcruiser1: That won't work because they still have to enforce it. Which is the problem in the first place because there are already rules that aren't being enforced. So those Singapore rules will scare them off but after a while they'll notice that it isn't being enforced and continue what they are doing now.

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they need to bring back this commercial that i remember. The scene was a crowded subway car and one girl was eating a snack bar that is still in a wrapper. After she done eating it, she literally let the wrapper drop to the ground and everybody stared at her for loitering the train. At the end of the commercial, they announce and have word on the screen saying "please dont litter in subway or buses.", something like that. I forgot what the ending message was but at least you get the point. 

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Good luck. You are going to have to adopt Singapore's rule of law to make people in this city listen, but then again it isn't a bad thing.

 

Singapore's rule of law.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg

Singapore_MRT_Fines.jpg

Well the (MTA) is too relaxed IMO. They should enforce the fines and hand them out.  There are two issues at play.  Too many slobs using the system as their personal waste basket and not enough cleaning.  The two combined make for a recipe for disaster.

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Via Garibaldi 8, (And others who has been to other mass transit systems around the world, say in Moscow, or Paris) I have a question: Being that you have experienced travel on transit systems around the world that serves almost as many people as our mass transit system, I am wondering first, what are exactly the conditions concerning cleaniness? Is it better? And if that is the case, then why is it we as NYer's cannot get it together? We know the report from Travel and Leisure Mag recently marking NYC as the dirtiest city in the US alone, in general.

 

You mentioned that the fines are too laxed in the previous post. I'm assuming here in NYC the laws are tougher and are more strictly enforced, yet still. Just seeing from the pics on the Paris metro that serves pretty much as much passengers as in NYC, it definitely looks cleaner. I could be wrong, I've never been there.

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Via Garibaldi 8, (And others who has been to other mass transit systems around the world, say in Moscow, or Paris) I have a question: Being that you have experienced travel on transit systems around the world that serves almost as many people as our mass transit system, I am wondering first, what are exactly the conditions concerning cleaniness? Is it better? And if that is the case, then why is it we as NYer's cannot get it together? We know the report from Travel and Leisure Mag recently marking NYC as the dirtiest city in the US alone, in general.

 

You mentioned that the fines are too laxed in the previous post. I'm assuming here in NYC the laws are tougher and are more strictly enforced, yet still. Just seeing from the pics on the Paris metro that serves pretty much as much passengers as in NYC, it definitely looks cleaner. I could be wrong, I've never been there.

Well for starters we don't invest enough in our transit system here, particularly in infrastructure.  I've used the subway system in Rome and Milan which I admit are tiny compared to New York City.  In Rome it was a short ride and pretty clean.  Milan is like a mini New York, but the streets are clean as, are the subways, trams and buses, as they take a great deal of pride in Milan, being that it is the economical and financial hub of the country. Part of it here is a lack of pride and just nastiness.  Milan has about 1.3 million people (second largest in Italy) and Rome has about 2.7 million (largest in Italy).  Now New York is about 8.2 million but not all of that is concentrated in Manhattan of course. Manhattan is only about 1.6 million people, with the rest being from the other boroughs.

 

Now I've used the train system throughout Italy and while some of the trains are old you're not going to find trash all over the place.  What you will find is the occasional stall that is rank but that happened to me on only a few occasions, so it isn't the norm.  Making a mess everywhere just simply isn't tolerated.  I personally would have the subways shut down for cleaning.  They can do it as part of "Fast Track" or whatever and have certain stations shut down for cleaning.  

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Indeed, I agree. Story of our lives, the MTA (Thank you Albany) cannot invest enough on the transit system, such as infrastructural maintenance and repair as you've mentioned.

 

I lol'ed on paragraph two. Shut it down!! As you mentioned the Fast Track suggestion I do remember some time ago, over the previous winter when they had the 6th Ave Line Fast Track, the transit workers were cleaning up trash from the tracks as part of the tasks to be done during that week. This was @ Broadway-Layfayatte. I would have to say that was a rare sight, as a straphanger don't see that too often, where the focus is diligently placed on cleaning up the station and roadbeds underground, a first for me. I'm assuming that may, should be the protocol for all the Fast Track programs on the various segments of the system, of course how would I know? As it's rare for me to ride the subways at 1AM in the morning......

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Indeed, I agree. Story of our lives, the MTA (Thank you Albany) cannot invest enough on the transit system, such as infrastructural maintenance and repair as you've mentioned.

 

I lol'ed on paragraph two. Shut it down!! As you mentioned the Fast Track suggestion I do remember some time ago, over the previous winter when they had the 6th Ave Line Fast Track, the transit workers were cleaning up trash from the tracks as part of the tasks to be done during that week. This was @ Broadway-Layfayatte. I would have to say that was a rare sight, as a straphanger don't see that too often, where the focus is diligently placed on cleaning up the station and roadbeds underground, a first for me. I'm assuming that may, should be the protocol for all the Fast Track programs on the various segments of the system, of course how would I know? As it's rare for me to ride the subways at 1AM in the morning......

I believe that's the case, but it should become more common.  I mean what they should be doing is encouraging use of buses late at night where possible instead of constantly cutting bus service, this way you take some strain off of the subways to allow for maintenance where necessary.

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Well the Durian according to my understanding is a popular delicacy in Southeast Asia which requires that a person develop an acquired taste for.

 

Apparently the eating of it in public places is as much a problem as smokeless tobacco was with the IND and IRT system back in the 20th Century leading to the well known spitting ban to keep smokeless tobacco chewers from spitting wads of tobacco juice all over the floors, and walls inside the stations and even the trains itself. 

 

Betel Nut is another substance similar to smokeless tobacco that is also used in the same way, you take a wad, place it between the cheeks, let the chemicals infuse into the gums for the satisfaction, spit, then repeat. The stuff is nasty it actually stains your teeth almost black after heavy usage.

 

04.spitting-506x380.jpg

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Via Garibaldi 8, (And others who has been to other mass transit systems around the world, say in Moscow, or Paris) I have a question: Being that you have experienced travel on transit systems around the world that serves almost as many people as our mass transit system, I am wondering first, what are exactly the conditions concerning cleaniness? Is it better?

 

Well, from what I've seen so far from NYC Subway I'd consider it not the worst but certainly not the best in terms of cleanliness. In Amsterdam (which is not too far from where I live) there are several stations on the subway that are in pretty bad condition, mostly in terms of the cleanliness (both people who litter on the ground and dirty walls and stuff).

In Rotterdam it's mostly clean. Which is kinda weird given the fact that Rotterdam faces the same issues of bad neighbourhoods that Amsterdam faces. But they do a good job of cleaning the stations and keeping it clean. There's only a handful of stations that could use some love in comparison to Amsterdam and NYC.

And in Antwerp, Belgium (which is sort of like a subway, they call it "pre-metro") it's pretty clean. They actually do a fine job of keeping it clean. I've not experienced dirty subway stations at all the few times I've been there in the last few years. Some stations look a bit bland but none of 'em are dirty.

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Well, from what I've seen so far from NYC Subway I'd consider it not the worst but certainly not the best in terms of cleanliness. In Amsterdam (which is not too far from where I live) there are several stations on the subway that are in pretty bad condition, mostly in terms of the cleanliness (both people who litter on the ground and dirty walls and stuff).

In Rotterdam it's mostly clean. Which is kinda weird given the fact that Rotterdam faces the same issues of bad neighbourhoods that Amsterdam faces. But they do a good job of cleaning the stations and keeping it clean. There's only a handful of stations that could use some love in comparison to Amsterdam and NYC.

And in Antwerp, Belgium (which is sort of like a subway, they call it "pre-metro") it's pretty clean. They actually do a fine job of keeping it clean. I've not experienced dirty subway stations at all the few times I've been there in the last few years. Some stations look a bit bland but none of 'em are dirty.

Belgium has a high standard of living, not that the Netherlands doesn't, but I find Belgium to be far more pleasant than the Netherlands on a number of levels (better food and beer to name a few). The EU headquarters is in Belgium in Brussels, so they can't keep the country too shabby looking.  For all of the divisions between the French speaking part of Belgium (Wallonia) and Flanders (the Dutch speaking part), the country is fairly well-to-do.  I'd say the further North you go in Western Europe, the better the quality of life is. The Scandinavian countries have a very high standard of living (Denmark comes to mind being the most expensive place to live in Europe) and their public transportation is practically spotless.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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And yes, it's true. Flanders is doing really well, especially in transit. Wallonia on the other hand is suffering from the same things as Detroit: once full of industry but it collapsed and it now has trouble reviving itself. Unlike Flanders where everything just comes and goes like one would expect.

 

Btw, you don't have to be nice about The Netherlands. I don't like my country at all so feel free to bash :P

 

Anyway, high living standard or not: we were talking cleanliness of the subways, not quality of life. If that was depended on keeping the stations clean than it's weird Rotterdam has cleaner subway stations than Amsterdam because Rotterdam is far worse to live in than Amsterdam.

Edited by Vistausss

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And yes, it's true. Flanders is doing really well, especially in transit. Wallonia on the other hand is suffering from the same things as Detroit: once full of industry but it collapsed and it now has trouble reviving itself. Unlike Flanders where everything just comes and goes like one would expect.

 

Btw, you don't have to be nice about The Netherlands. I don't like my country at all so feel free to bash :P

 

Anyway, high living standard or not: we were talking cleanliness of the subways, not quality of life. If that was depended on keeping the stations clean than it's weird Rotterdam has cleaner subway stations than Amsterdam because Rotterdam is far worse to live in than Amsterdam.

Yeah but as far as I'm concerned, the cleanliness of transportation is part of the quality of life and usually you'll find that wealthy or the more well-to-do areas tend to have well kept transit and it's not just a coincidence either.  Look at most of the subway stations in the city in say the Upper East Side and compare them to say Washington Heights.  I even notice a big difference in the transportation here in Riverdale.  The MetroNorth stations are very clean and the express buses are pretty damn clean too except for the occasional newspaper or closed drink left on the bus.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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It depends, when I visited Italy, Rome and Milan subways were much dirtier than Naples metro despite the fact that Naples is a much poorer city.
Naples is also dirtier (Milan was not really clean as well when I visited it) but the metro of Napoli (linea 1) was spotless.
For me the cleaness of a subway is mostly due to the cleaning policy of the network.
 
In Paris, the dirtiest metro station are not necessarily in the worst neighborhoods.

 

You mentioned that the fines are too laxed in the previous post. I'm assuming here in NYC the laws are tougher and are more strictly enforced, yet still. Just seeing from the pics on the Paris metro that serves pretty much as much passengers as in NYC, it definitely looks cleaner. I could be wrong, I've never been there.

 

I can't really compare Paris metro with New York subway because I have never been in NYC.

Pictures are not a really good way to look the cleanness of a network.

You can't smell a picture and many of the dirt is not visible.

 

I wouldn't call Paris metro as whole clean. It can be clean but it can be very dirty as well.

We have many of the issues of New York City subway (lack of a regular cleaning, homeless population).

 

One of the problem I noticed is that cleaning is subcontracted

It is not the RATP (Paris metro company) who clean the station but private cleaning companies.

I believe that the RATP chooses the lowest price rather than the quality.

 

The cleaness of Paris metro is also also pretty variable because the management of the network is decentralized.

Each line can decide of its priorities, and each station are managed by a specific line.

 

We have also an upper echelon who could control the cleanness of Paris metro but don't do its jobs correctly, it is the STIF.

The STIF is the transportation organisation authority of Paris metropolitan area.

The STIF imposes a minimum cleanness level and can give penalty fee to the companies if those minimums are not respected but it seems that the cleanness level imposed by the STIF is quite low or they control the cleanness because while the RATP had penalty because of the regularity, I never seen anything about the cleanness.

 

The RATP has done some advertising campaigns to make the passengers more respectfull but if the RATP don't do its maintenance jobs correctly, I don't think it will work.
I think that passengers are always more respectfull in a well kept network than in a dirty one.

 

The high number of passenger is not an excuse for a dirty subway system, Tokyo, Seoul, Moscow subways carry more passengers than our networks and they are spotless.

 

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The high number of passenger is not an excuse for a dirty subway system, Tokyo, Seoul, Moscow subways carry more passengers than our networks and they are spotless.

That was my point. Something is not correct with what the (MTA) is doing to handle the lack of cleanliness and the rat infestation in the system. I said just that in the post you just quoted.

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Well guess what? Not only do they close at night, but they have the manpower.

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Correct- via Fast Track programs enacted on the system as I've previously mentioned in and saw myself once on the 6th Ave Fast Track, they do station washouts, repainting and clearing of debris from tracks. Vacuum trains and/or by manual labor at the hands of the track workers.

 

Among infrastructure and track repairs and such

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It depends, when I visited Italy, Rome and Milan subways were much dirtier than Naples metro despite the fact that Naples is a much poorer city.
Naples is also dirtier (Milan was not really clean as well when I visited it) but the metro of Napoli (linea 1) was spotless.
For me the cleaness of a subway is mostly due to the cleaning policy of the network.
 
In Paris, the dirtiest metro station are not necessarily in the worst neighborhoods.

 

 

I can't really compare Paris metro with New York subway because I have never been in NYC.

Pictures are not a really good way to look the cleanness of a network.

You can't smell a picture and many of the dirt is not visible.

 

I wouldn't call Paris metro as whole clean. It can be clean but it can be very dirty as well.

We have many of the issues of New York City subway (lack of a regular cleaning, homeless population).

 

The high number of passenger is not an excuse for a dirty subway system, Tokyo, Seoul, Moscow subways carry more passengers than our networks and they are spotless.

 

Milan being dirtier than Naples??!?! LMAO! I've never heard such a thing before.  Where exactly were you at that was so dirty??

 

The part in bold is definitely true.

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