Port Authority considering replacing PABT

[Cait Sith]

lol.... That much is not lost upon me...

 

But at the same token, it's up to the rest of us that aren't ignorant (like he is) to relay sensical posts/musings/points-of-views to the rest of the members on here.....

 

While I very much agree with this, it's also a reason why I don't bother anymore, it never ends......lol

[theaveragejoe]

How about fixing the problem instead of dumping people off in Secaucus. You guys don't seem to get that there are alot of commuters coming from Upstate NY and Pennsylvania....dropping off in Secaucus for them to catch NJT Rail is unrealistic. Some of these people are on the bus for 2-3 hours, that kind of connection will dramatically increase their commute times.

 

 

 

Thats why you have the 7 subway line extended out to Secaucus or you have a new PANYNJ PATH like line run to Mid Town Manhattan from Secaucus. Selling the PABT property would cover good 20% cost of the line. PATH type line could run 8 car trains every 3 mins. Would have to be called something other then PATH as it wouldnt connect with the PATH network.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Thats why you have the 7 subway line extended out to Secaucus or you have a new PANYNJ PATH like line run to Mid Town Manhattan from Secaucus. Selling the PABT property would cover good 20% cost of the line. PATH type line could run 8 car trains every 3 mins. Would have to be called something other then PATH as it wouldnt connect with the PATH network.

It doesn't matter how many trains you have in Secaucus. People. Will. Not. Transfer! End of discussion. PABT is here to stay, what they do as far as expansions/renovations is up to Port.

[qjtransitmaster]

Better for who, exactly? This is what you're not answering.....

 

 

lol.... That much is not lost upon me...

 

But at the same token, it's up to the rest of us that aren't ignorant (like he is) to relay sensical posts/musings/points-of-views to the rest of the members on here.....

 

 

.....and a 1-seat ride to it.... Which, for the commutes they have to endure, are well deserving of it....

 

I'm also of the same ilk that says NJ commuters despise transferring (him being such this self-proclaimed suburban transit expert master should know that).... If some nearby bus route doesn't take them where they want to go on one mode, they're gonna resort to the personal vehicle..... Absolutely right it doesn't matter what time of day, or having riders be dumped off at Hoboken (instead of at Secaucus), or whatever else he's saying to dance around the fact that these people, by hook or by crook, do not want to transfer after taking a bus directly from their homes.....

 

They're called commuter routes for a reason.....

the proposal is a temporary one as contingent till port authority expansion is complete then after that and a full BRT then the rush hr pm reverse buses can return to their previous routings. I think you forgot about the ferries to NYC from Hoboken and port imperial which can act as capacity too. Not all bus riders would be dumped there. Besides as mentioned by BZGUY some can be diverted to the Holland tunnel for lower Manhattan to skip the traffic. I know that NJT rail and PATH are not the only ny bound services that are immune to traffic on the Lincoln.

[bobtehpanda]

Thats why you have the 7 subway line extended out to Secaucus or you have a new PANYNJ PATH like line run to Mid Town Manhattan from Secaucus. Selling the PABT property would cover good 20% cost of the line. PATH type line could run 8 car trains every 3 mins. Would have to be called something other then PATH as it wouldnt connect with the PATH network.

 

All you people pushing for a Jersey solution don't seem to understand that these people have spent hours on a bus. They are not going to transfer to a train, and then another train, especially since any train line would quickly be standing room only (Lincoln Tunnel bus lane has a capacity of 62K~ per hour, and the express line on the E/F has a capacity of 68K per hour at 30TPH and 10-car trains).

 

Port Authority needs an actual replacement. Even if you relocated all of the long-distances services out of there to outer borough terminals (which wouldn't make sense at all), there probably wouldn't be enough capacity for commuter buses in the long-term.

 

A bus terminal needs to be at a transit nexus with frequent connections to all corners of the metro area. There are only two places that fit that bill - Midtown and Downtown. Any other location would either take too long to get to by bus (no one is going to go all the way out to Flushing or Jamaica to take a bus that gets stuck in traffic in the Bronx or Brooklyn) or be way too inconvenient (no one is going to take the train to Pelham Bay Park and get on a bus there.) Any proposals that are not located in those two areas are doomed to fail.

 

the proposal is a temporary one as contingent till port authority expansion is complete then after that and a full BRT then the rush hr pm reverse buses can return to their previous routings. I think you forgot about the ferries to NYC from Hoboken and port imperial which can act as capacity too. Not all bus riders would be dumped there. Besides as mentioned by BZGUY some can be diverted to the Holland tunnel for lower Manhattan to skip the traffic. I know that NJT rail and PATH are not the only ny bound services that are immune to traffic on the Lincoln.

 

The ferries are already pretty busy and definitely cannot handle an additional 62K riders an hour.

 

Also, either you're foaming immensely right now or you have no idea what a "full BRT" entails, because 1) There's no room to put one anywhere and 2) BRT is not for commuter services from the suburbs...

[qjtransitmaster]

That... had absolutely nothing to do with that chain of conversation.

 

 

 

Not, it will not. PATH is completely at capacity. The ferries are at capacity (and expensive as hell to run, too.) Secaucus is at capacity.

 

Unless you want commuters to row their way across the Hudson, there is no way you can relive PABT using something on the Jersey side of the river.

I see well it would cut down on the number of cars to and from the ferries but I guess Bzguy's idea would have to do.  

That makes no sense, why have buses head to Hoboken or Secaucus and then DH to the Port....you might as well let them continue in service like they currently do.

There's a lot that can be done in the meantime to mitigate the current problems.

#1. Biggest issue the the NYPD and PAPD handling of the bus traffic. 9 times out of 10 when they are out there directing us they make the backup worse that what is should be by sending buses every which way just to get upstairs.

#2. The NJT starters need the authority to assign the drivers to trips that need covering. They shouldn't have to beg guys to do different stuff, but be able to tell the drivers what they are gonna run when they get on the gate. That means the drivers need to know all the lines (and variations) their depot covers.

#3. I think the idea that been floating of the Private Carriers and NJT being separated needs a closer look. That might alleviate some congestion that happens when the buses have to cross each other at the top of the ramp to enter for the 2/300 gates or the 400 gates.

Those 3 ideas would start to speed somethings up if implemented.

Interesting ideas how would this cut down on the hour long delays? FYI is NJT rail and PATH at capacity in the reverse direction?

[theaveragejoe]

It doesn't matter how many trains you have in Secaucus. People. Will. Not. Transfer! End of discussion. PABT is here to stay, what they do as far as expansions/renovations is up to Port.

 

Renvoations/ expansion would only buy you extra 10-15 years with growth. a second PABT built at Secaucus with the proper subway connection to Mid town will work as people would save time with the growing gridlock in the tunnel will continue to grow. Think what the bus travel time would be from Secaucus to PABT/Midtown in 15 years from now. Proper quick subway/PATH type line from Secaucus to Midtown would be quicker travel times. People will transfer once they see travel times are quicker. This is another topic but another full proper set of Hudson tubes are needed on the NEC for Amtrak/NJT/MNCR (West of Hudson service) to take the pressure off of the bridges and tunnels. You guys have to think 15-25 years down the road.

[bobtehpanda]

Renvoations/ expansion would only buy you extra 10-15 years with growth. a second PABT built at Secaucus with the proper subway connection to Mid town will work as people would save time with the growing gridlock in the tunnel will continue to grow. Think what the bus travel time would be from Secaucus to PABT/Midtown in 15 years from now. Proper quick subway/PATH type line from Secaucus to Midtown would be quicker travel times. People will transfer once they see travel times are quicker. This is another topic but another full proper set of Hudson tubes are needed on the NEC for Amtrak/NJT/MNCR (West of Hudson service) to take the pressure off of the bridges and tunnels. You guys have to think 15-25 years down the road.

 

Because you know, New Jersey people have a lot of money to spend, and are going to fork over three sets of fares for their daily commute, and love to transfer. (Who the hell actually likes transferring?)

 

Transferring isn't convenient, especially at outer hubs. That's why you don't see a lot of New England buses and upstate buses stop at GWB instead of PABT, even though they can get stuck in traffic going down the West Side.

[qjtransitmaster]

All you people pushing for a Jersey solution don't seem to understand that these people have spent hours on a bus. They are not going to transfer to a train, and then another train, especially since any train line would quickly be standing room only (Lincoln Tunnel bus lane has a capacity of 62K~ per hour, and the express line on the E/F has a capacity of 68K per hour at 30TPH and 10-car trains).

 

Port Authority needs an actual replacement. Even if you relocated all of the long-distances services out of there to outer borough terminals (which wouldn't make sense at all), there probably wouldn't be enough capacity for commuter buses in the long-term.

 

A bus terminal needs to be at a transit nexus with frequent connections to all corners of the metro area. There are only two places that fit that bill - Midtown and Downtown. Any other location would either take too long to get to by bus (no one is going to go all the way out to Flushing or Jamaica to take a bus that gets stuck in traffic in the Bronx or Brooklyn) or be way too inconvenient (no one is going to take the train to Pelham Bay Park and get on a bus there.) Any proposals that are not located in those two areas are doomed to fail.

 

The ferries are already pretty busy and definitely cannot handle an additional 62K riders an hour.

 

Also, either you're foaming immensely right now or you have no idea what a "full BRT" entails, because 1) There's no room to put one anywhere and 2) BRT is not for commuter services from the suburbs...

It can be elevated above highway 495 in between 30th and 31st streets with side platforms to disembark and traffic priority to keep em moving at intersections or elevated higher with BRT like stations at union city and POP ticket machines. The BRT can then merge in directly into a bus only lane at the Lincoln tunnel to speed up service now union city gains acccess to all NY bound buses without slowing them down so much. Plus most NJT lines do not take more than 1 hour except 319,114& some non NJT intercity buses. Yes I have taken most NJT. PABT routes that is how I know this.

 

The ferries are already so busy how busy are they in the reverse peak direction?

[theaveragejoe]

Because you know, New Jersey people have a lot of money to spend, and are going to fork over three sets of fares for their daily commute, and love to transfer. (Who the hell actually likes transferring?)

 

Transferring isn't convenient, especially at outer hubs. That's why you don't see a lot of New England buses and upstate buses stop at GWB instead of PABT, even though they can get stuck in traffic going down the West Side.

 

 

Only long term solution would be a new PABT from the ground up in Manhattan but would only work with a new tube and direction connection to it with out tieing up other traffic getting into the tubes. Problem is space in Manhattan is hard to come by.

[qjtransitmaster]

Because you know, New Jersey people have a lot of money to spend, and are going to fork over three sets of fares for their daily commute, and love to transfer. (Who the hell actually likes transferring?)

 

Transferring isn't convenient, especially at outer hubs. That's why you don't see a lot of New England buses and upstate buses stop at GWB instead of PABT, even though they can get stuck in traffic going down the West Side.

  actually those buses fly down the west side however I do agree against ending at GWB but stopping there en the to midtown by request can make it easier to catch those buses from northern NJ I am mixed. Obj FYI NJT Rail passes are honored on ALL NJT services including buses as long as the zone of the pass covers the zone of the bus trip and they cost exactly the same as bus passes past zone 7. However for those zone 4 or 5 ny bound trips NJT can offer special free transfers to NJT rail in the meantime till capacity problems are resolved. And even strike a deal with PATH and the ferry companies. Or if all else fails start ordering the amphibious buses IF they get that desperate so those water/land hybrid buses can use the Hudson river to skip the gridlock truth be told even though those buses cost as much as regular buses the last point is foamerish but luckily it won't get that bad I hope.

Renvoations/ expansion would only buy you extra 10-15 years with growth. a second PABT built at Secaucus with the proper subway connection to Mid town will work as people would save time with the growing gridlock in the tunnel will continue to grow. Think what the bus travel time would be from Secaucus to PABT/Midtown in 15 years from now. Proper quick subway/PATH type line from Secaucus to Midtown would be quicker travel times. People will transfer once they see travel times are quicker. This is another topic but another full proper set of Hudson tubes are needed on the NEC for Amtrak/NJT/MNCR (West of Hudson service) to take the pressure off of the bridges and tunnels. You guys have to think 15-25 years down the road.

A duplicate subway won't help as that takes years to build in that same time you can build a bus only BRT tunnel to speed up bus service instead of making people wait years and all that is accomplished is a transfer cmon man at least my proposal is temporary.

[theaveragejoe]

  . A duplicate subway won't help as that takes years to build in that same time you can build a bus only BRT tunnel to speed up bus service instead of making people wait years and all that is accomplished is a transfer cmon man at least my proposal is temporary.

 

 

If a BRT only tunnel in a new tube with direct connection to PABT with out having to be in regular traffic that would work too, just have to find a good way to rebuild or build a new PABT

[qjtransitmaster]

It can be tied into the Lincoln tunnel making one of the tunnels bus only the BRT would be in NJ it would be an elevated tube as you say. Long term it turns into a direct bridge or tube directly into PABT. Skipping the Lincoln completely ohh the poppy jitney buses can be left out as they aren't full buses sorry but intercity buses and long distance buses are welcome not charters though or jitney buses as they aren't on the HOV in the am. Yep port authority does need to upgrade badly.

[theaveragejoe]

It can be tied into the Lincoln tunnel making one of the tunnels bus only the BRT would be in NJ it would be an elevated tube as you say. Long term it turns into a direct bridge or tube directly into PABT. Skipping the Lincoln completely ohh the poppy jitney buses can be left out as they aren't full buses sorry but intercity buses and long distance buses are welcome not charters though or jitney buses as they aren't on the HOV in the am. Yep port authority does need to upgrade badly.

 

 

Taking out the current centre tube for this would back traffic up worse then it is now. A pair of new bus only tubes is needed. Along with new pair of tubes for the NEC.

[bobtehpanda]

Are there currently dedicated lanes from the Turnpike and surrounding highways to the Lincoln Tunnel?

[theaveragejoe]

Are there currently dedicated lanes from the Turnpike and surrounding highways to the Lincoln Tunnel?

 

 

Yes during peak but still traffic is crazy

[GojiMet86]

Are there currently dedicated lanes from the Turnpike and surrounding highways to the Lincoln Tunnel?

 

Yes, there is that one reversible lane. Not sure how far it goes, but it's one of the few reversible lanes in the US. It's located on the side heading away from NY, however for the morning rush, buses use this lane to get into New York. Then in the afternoon the traffic on that lane reverses.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit_in_New_Jersey#495_XBL-Lincoln_Tunnel-PABT

 

 

The Lincoln Tunnel Approach and Helix (NJ 495) in Hudson County passes through a cut and descends theHudson Palisades to the Lincoln Tunnel at the other end of which is the Port Authority Bus Terminal(PABT).^[45] Starting in 1964, studies were conducted to address the feasibility of an Exclusive Bus Lane (XBL) during the weekday morning peak period.^[46] The XBL, first implemented in 1970, serves weekday eastbound bus traffic between 6:00a.m.–10:00a.m.^[47] The XBL lane is fed by the New Jersey Turnpike at Exits 16E and 17, and New Jersey Route 3. The helix, tunnel, and terminal are owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the bi-state agency that also operates the 2.5-mile (4.02 km) contraflow lane along the left lane of three westbound lanes. The XBL serves over 1,800 buses, which transport more than 65,000 persons, each morning and is a major component of the morning "inbound" commutation crossing the Hudson River.^{[47][48][49][50][51]} Over 100 bus carriers utilize the Exclusive Bus Lane.^[47] New Jersey Transit operates fifty-seven interstate bus routes through the Lincoln Tunnel, as do numerous regional and long distance companies.^[52]

 

 

[theaveragejoe]

A full time both inbound and outbound bus only lane is needed at all times

[DaTransitMan4608]

 It can be elevated above highway 495 in between 30th and 31st streets with side platforms to disembark and traffic priority to keep em moving at intersections or elevated higher with BRT like stations at union city and POP ticket machines. The BRT can then merge in directly into a bus only lane at the Lincoln tunnel to speed up service now union city gains acccess to all NY bound buses without slowing them down so much. Plus most NJT lines do not take more than 1 hour except 319,114& some non NJT intercity buses. Yes I have taken most NJT. PABT routes that is how I know this.

 

The ferries are already so busy how busy are they in the reverse peak direction?

Not exactly true. The 139 takes about an hour and a half from Lakewood to NYC, sometimes longer during the AM/PM rush because of traffic on '9. The 137 takes almost 2 hours from Toms River-New York. Some lines down South like the 317, 551, 553, etc. take about 2-4hrs end to end. 

 

Even if you were to put this BRT on 495 in Union City and make it elevated, you'd run into a few issues.

 

• If you put it on street level (and I'm talking about Union City's street level), it may interfere with traffic along the those local streets.
• NJ-495 is mainly used by trucks and buses trying to get into Manhattan. The busway might drop the '495 trench clearance a few feet. Which could cause an accident similar to the one in Upstate NY with a Megabus Double Decker crashing into the bridge (and the passengers and driver will care and won't love it).
• You can't make all of the NYC bound buses use this busway to stop in Union City. It will tie up traffic on the busway which will in turn make 495 traffic worse.

[qjtransitmaster]

Taking out the current centre tube for this would back traffic up worse then it is now. A pair of new bus only tubes is needed. Along with new pair of tubes for the NEC.

ok a tube in NJ to NYC underground would work miracles your right.

Not exactly true. The 139 takes about an hour and a half from Lakewood to NYC, sometimes longer during the AM/PM rush because of traffic on '9. The 137 takes almost 2 hours from Toms River-New York. Some lines down South like the 317, 551, 553, etc. take about 2-4hrs end to end.

 

Even if you were to put this BRT on 495 in Union City and make it elevated, you'd run into a few issues.

 

 

• If you put it on street level (and I'm talking about Union City's street level), it may interfere with traffic along the those local streets.
• NJ-495 is mainly used by trucks and buses trying to get into Manhattan. The busway might drop the '495 trench clearance a few feet. Which could cause an accident similar to the one in Upstate NY with a Megabus Double Decker crashing into the bridge (and the passengers and driver will care and won't love it).
• You can't make all of the NYC bound buses use this busway to stop in Union City. It will tie up traffic on the busway which will in turn make 495 traffic worse.

I don't know what 137 you have been unlucky enough to be on but I was never on a 137 that slow the 137 takes only 1 hour to NYC plus those other buses you brought up do not go to NYC. There is a reason the BRT would be high elevation. You have a point somewhat. If it were PM rush and 64 ran bidirectional I would use that instead of the 139 so I can use PATH to bypass the mess.

[DaTransitMan4608]

ok a tube in NJ to NYC underground would work miracles your right. I don't know what 137 you have been unlucky enough to be on but I was never on a 137 that slow the 137 takes only 1 hour to NYC plus those other buses you brought up do not go to NYC. There is a reason the BRT would be high elevation. You have a point somewhat. If it were PM rush and 64 ran bidirectional I would use that instead of the 139 so I can use PATH to bypass the mess.

It takes 90 minutes to get from NYC-Toms River. So you can't say it only takes one hour. Plus the GSP gets backed up South of Exit 129, and has to sit in '495 Helix/Lincoln Tunnel traffic so it could take longer.

 

That's why I said Southern NJ lines. I didn't say anything about them going to NYC.

 

*Can a mod moved this thread to the NJT forum please.

[B35 via Church]

I don't know what 137 you have been unlucky enough to be on but I was never on a 137 that slow  the 137 takes only 1 hour to NYC....

From Toms River? Nah man, that ride is closer to 90 mins......

 

Sure you aren't thinking of another 13_ route that takes an hour to get to PABT? Because it's not the 137.

[qjtransitmaster]

From Toms River? Nah man, that ride is closer to 90 mins......

 

Sure you aren't thinking of another 13_ route that takes an hour to get to PABT? Because it's not the 137.

I guess I got lucky then to be fair I used 137's 8 pmish departure to NYC. Maybe that is why it only took an hour.

[Vistausss]

Javits is located partially below street level. Just demolish Javits (using the Annex as a temporary space) and rebuild the convention center, but using the bottom of that giant concrete bathtub as a bus terminal. Voila, new bus terminal, and you're replacing a rather depressing facility that's somewhat outdated.

 

Should your plan happen then you might also want to expand the new terminal they're building there, else you might run into problems with the which I hopefully don't have to explain to you...

[bobtehpanda]

 

Should your plan happen then you might also want to expand the new terminal they're building there, else you might run into problems with the which I hopefully don't have to explain to you...

 

You don't, but have you seen the station's under construction pictures? It's comparable in size to the Canary Wharf station in London (which is appropriate, because both are essentially serving brand new, purpose-built business districts.)

 

MTA projects the station to crack the top ten once Hudson Yards is fully up and running, so I have no doubt about the ability of the platforms to handle the crush (although I have serious qualms about the whole "incline elevator" instead of escalators...)