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What Really Causes Traffic Congestion


BrooklynBus

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heh, I would say they are stubborn.

 

anti-car is another thing.

 

cars in NYC annoy me b/c of all the nonsense that comes with them (traffic, people having a fit about elimination of parking spaces, especially when eliminating parking spaces would improve bus reliability, scofflaw motorists who speed and double park on streets where buses run, etc). in my mind I simply do not know if that or any of my other opinions on these issues make me anti-car. I have not come up with my own clear definition of anti-car.

 

considering all my posts and opinions about the problems people cause by using/owning cars, I might be considered anti-car by most people. not that that would change my opinions on these issues.

 

I understand that people do have good reasons for using them, but the problems they cause and the unwillingness of the government and citizenry to do anything about those problems are ridiculous.

 

I also acknowledge that someone who lives in an area with practically no transit network needs a car to get around. my biggest issue is cars in NYC, not cars everywhere including NYC.

 

if somebody other than myself said I was stubborn for doing what I do, I would not think that person was exhibiting an anti-transit disposition.

 

also when I keep saying "the problems they (private vehicles) cause" I refer mainly to how they make things harder for other road users (buses in particular). I am not referring to air pollution. not saying anybody has brought that up; just making that clear now.

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if somebody other than myself said I was stubborn for doing what I do, I would not think that person was exhibiting an anti-transit disposition.

Well why would you.... The person that'd call you stubborn for exhibiting an anti-car disposition, isn't indicative of what his stance on public transportation and/or the personal vehicle is anyway.....

 

 

Whereas someone calling motorists stubborn b/c they choose to drive, can be construed as an anti-car stance....

As if to say, why they gotta be all that - just because they aren't taking mass transit....

{The equivalent of what you're saying in that snippet/reply of yours, would be me pointing out what the motorist would think of the person doing the name calling/shaming..... Which I never bothered to do b/c it doesn't factor into the point I'm making (about shaming motorists just b/c they're choosing to drive & don't wish to take mass transit for w/e reasons they have)}

 

 

side note: Can this be moved to the vehicles/roads/highways section.... This topic would easily be the most discussed thread in that sub-forum

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To B35:

 

There already is a parallel discussion in the vehicle, roads, highway section.

 

I am lost. I do not know what you mean by, "I said if every single motorist that's out here using their personal vehicle where they would normally use mass transit otherwise, the traffic congestion problem in this city would still be absolutely horrid...", specifically the part" where they normally would use mass transit otherwise".

 

To Brooklyn IRT:

 

My family had no car and relied exclusively on mass transit until I was 20. At 21, I purchased my first car and I saw the freedom it gave me. Owning a car did not prevent me from advocating for mass transit for over the following 40 years. You speak about making sacrifices and a revolution. That may be fine for younger people, but when you get older you want all the comforts you can get if you can afford them. Four the past four years I have been making regular trips to vist my lady friend in Astoria. The trip by car takes between 34 minutes and 75 minutes, averaging about 45. The trip by bus and train takes between 90 minutes and 2 1/2 hours if you have to travel late at night, when the same trip by car takes 34 minutes. That's some difference. At nearly age 64, I value my time greatly. Why would I choose a 2 1/2 hour trip over a 34 minute trip and be so greatly inconvenienced? Who would notice? How would I be improving mass transit by doing that? Even if hundreds of other people did that, it still would not be enough to justify increased train service. If you want to make such sacrifices, that is your choice, but you don't have a right to state that others should do the same if they don't want to. The fact is if I didn't own a car, most likely I would be seeing her much less often because I do not like making long train trips. When I was younger, as I said, I really didn't mind, but time becomes much more a factor as you grow older.

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I just want to make it clear that I use the bus + subway + walk to commute morning and night five days a week.  Public transportation makes sense in that case, because even though my 45 minute mass transit commute would take 15 minute by car I would have to pay ridiculous rates to park downtown.  If parking was a reasonable price then I most definitely would be driving down every day.

 

Cars also have a sense of comfort, safety, privacy, and freedom that is impossible for public transportation to ever have.  I absolutely hate standing in a packed subway car with no personal space whatsoever holding on and getting pushed back and forth every time the train turns.  Public transportation in the city is extremely overcrowded, disgusting, smells, and potentially dangerous (although it's so much safer than it used to be).  For those who say cars can be dangerous also I'll just say that the only time I was ever involved in a car crash was when I was on a school bus as a kid.

 

I also want to emphasize freedom.  If I'm on a bus and there's a bunch of traffic on the street because of road work or whatever other reason, the bus isn't going to reroute unless the street is closed off.  As a driver I can just turn wherever I want and then take an alternate route.  On the UES and UWS side streets are always faster than main streets with traffic.  Buses don't reroute just because of traffic, but I can take whichever route I choose.

 

I'm not stubborn about doing whatever I can to use my car.  If there was any other mode of transportation that could get me to my destination as fast as my car could then I would definitely take it.  That's why I'm hoping that Citi Bike gets expanded to the UES and UWS.  Even though a car is faster than a bike, docking a bike is much faster than looking for parking and getting a munimeter ticket.  Almost all my car trips, at least those just within the UES, will be replaced by Citi Bike if the weather is good.  Obviously Citi Bike isn't for everyone, but specifically for me it would provide an alternative mode of transportation that I would prefer to use.  In fact I'm actually considering getting an annual membership right now to replace the walking portion of my commute from the subway to the WFC, and then to use on those occasional times I have to go to Water Street or Midtown.

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but time becomes much more a factor as you grow older.

 

That depends. My grandparents are almost in their mid-80s and they still make long trips several times a month, sometimes by car, sometimes by public transport (for them it's not a matter of what's faster; it's a matter of what they feel like using the day they're gonna make the trip).

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To B35:

 

There already is a parallel discussion in the vehicle, roads, highway section.

 

I am lost. I do not know what you mean by, "I said if every single motorist that's out here using their personal vehicle where they would normally use mass transit otherwise, the traffic congestion problem in this city would still be absolutely horrid...", specifically the part" where they normally would use mass transit otherwise".

 

To Brooklyn IRT:

 

My family had no car and relied exclusively on mass transit until I was 20. At 21, I purchased my first car and I saw the freedom it gave me. Owning a car did not prevent me from advocating for mass transit for over the following 40 years. You speak about making sacrifices and a revolution. That may be fine for younger people, but when you get older you want all the comforts you can get if you can afford them. Four the past four years I have been making regular trips to vist my lady friend in Astoria. The trip by car takes between 34 minutes and 75 minutes, averaging about 45. The trip by bus and train takes between 90 minutes and 2 1/2 hours if you have to travel late at night, when the same trip by car takes 34 minutes. That's some difference. At nearly age 64, I value my time greatly. Why would I choose a 2 1/2 hour trip over a 34 minute trip and be so greatly inconvenienced? Who would notice? How would I be improving mass transit by doing that? Even if hundreds of other people did that, it still would not be enough to justify increased train service. If you want to make such sacrifices, that is your choice, but you don't have a right to state that others should do the same if they don't want to. The fact is if I didn't own a car, most likely I would be seeing her much less often because I do not like making long train trips. When I was younger, as I said, I really didn't mind, but time becomes much more a factor as you grow older.

 

 

it would not even be about increased train service at that point; it would be about making some new train or bus routes that make trips like the one you stated easier.

 

I said it depends on how young a person is. it also depends on how one chooses to plan one's life/lifestyle. things that are totally unavoidable can get in the way of planning one's lifestyle as one pleases, yes. another factor here is that you used the transit system back when NYC was in horrible condition, and I suppose this and various other factors motivated you to get as far away from the 'inner city' as possible and move to a peaceful but car-heavy area, and an elderly person who dealt with the craziness of the city and the subways in the 70s and 80s is probably right (relatively speaking) for looking out for his/her well-being by being in peaceful areas like yours. that is your business. keep calm and carry on.

 

although it is a little funny that you publish all these articles about these issues when you (by your own admission) rarely use mass transit these days. or at least you rarely use Brooklyn buses. I remember when you told me this over a year ago when we were having some back-and-forth on sheepshead bites about the unreliability of the B3 and B36 and I asked you to ride these lines and talk to bus operators to try and find out what the deal was with them. it was in the B64 restoration article you wrote last spring or summer.

 

anyway, the fact that you and others have been advocating for mass transit for over 40 years is nice, but it obviously has not been enough. if it were, you never would have written the article on which this thread is based, nor would you have written many of your other articles. nor would we be dealing with a lot of other issues. you write all of these articles about how bad it is out there and how the government does absolutely nothing about these problems (and almost never putting the spotlight on the citizenry for not being able to agree to anything, which is why we have so many of these stupid parking wars and whatnot); what do you expect to be done!?

 

you expect the citizenry to band together and directly petition the government to do something about these problems? I would not mind doing that if I had enough influential players on my side. but I have better things to do than hold my breath waiting for them. I stated all the nonsense I went through contacting all of these officials in Brooklyn about the PAM problem and absolutely nothing was done. forget about asking other members of the citizenry to directly petition the government, because most of them have families to raise and are probably of the mind that they have no time for stuff like this. all they can do is say this and that need to be done, but do most of them actually do anything that they say needs to be done?

 

and I do see using cars as a bad thing in this city because of all the points I have made before about the issues caused space they occupy even when legally parked on these streets and the fact that absolutely nobody wants to give up any street parking so loading zones can be created. and I said elsewhere that even building more parking lots is questionable b/c it may decrease property values and could be a muggers haven at night. all kinds of nonsense happens when cars are involved, between nobody wanting to give up any street parking, politicians doing nothing, money that gets spent on traffic enforcement to implement band-aid solutions to these problems when it could be spent much more wisely, people abusing their privileges by double parking, speeding, and whatnot, while the government stands idly by, and so on. this is a battle against human nature. battles against human nature are very, very messy.

 

I have no right to do so and so...you do realize that I stated specifically, if you do not want to be a player in the revolution, keep doing what you do and keep saying so and so needs to be done without taking action yourself, right? I should also say if you do not want to continue to be a player in the revolution, keep doing what you do and keep saying so and so needs to be done without taking action yourself.

 

or if you do want to be a player in the revolution while still using/owning a car in this city, figure out some other way.

 

you did a decent job recently by helping out with the B4 and whatever else you have gotten done recently, but again that is not enough (for you); you obviously want other problems solved, such as traffic, and I am telling you that part of solving that problem is avoiding using cars at all costs. you say you cannot do that, fine. understand that younger people who work car-independence into their lifestyles are going to have to do most of this stuff that you write these long articles about. petitioning the government directly is a waste of time and energy.

 

and the government cannot be trusted to wake up one day and look out the window and say, wow there is mad traffic out there, we need to do something about these problems, wow there is mad double parking making all those buses miss traffic signals, we need to do something about these problems, wow that speeding car ran a stop sign and almost hit that pedestrian, we need to do something about these problems. this is a pipe dream.

 

Gorgor, keep talking about how cars give you all these things. crowded trains can be avoided if a person lives further from the urban core. and as I said in another post there are places in NYC that are not in the urban core where one can live well and live car-free.

 

and keep believing in your mind that cars give you this freedom of which you speak. I certainly do not consider it pleasant to deal with scofflaw motorists on these roads as I stated in my post about double parked vehicles on Kingsbridge Road. whatever clear road you travel along by car, all you need is for a bunch of other people to do the same thing you are doing for that clear road to become trafficated and unpleasant to drive along. as I said before, you can use your car and there is nothing wrong with that, but I also said that cars cause lots of problems just by occupying space even if they are legally parked (or at least human nature gets in the mix and the combination of cars and human nature causes lots of problems), so using a car in NYC does kinda run counter to the revolution as I see it.

 

I am not saying a body should not use a car to transport a large package for this reason, but the fact remains that using a car in NYC does kinda run counter to the revolution as I see it. that includes my own instances of car usage.

 

anyway what I said to brooklynbus applies to you too, gorgor: if you do not want to be a player in the revolution, keep doing what you do and keep saying so and so needs to be done without taking action yourself.

 

taking mass transit 5 days a week is fine and good, but by doing that you are not doing anything about the ridiculous parking wars, people abusing privileges, weekend traffic issues, weekend/off-peak transit service levels, and so on.

 

not that there is anything wrong with that (relatively speaking), assuming you do not want to be a player in the revolution or have some really good way of being a player while still owning/using cars.

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and let us not forget another important aspect of this battle against cars when they are allied with human nature (the dark side of it): everybody will have a cow if you try to congestion price all those roads where buses run, or do other things to make driving more expensive while helping transit..they be like "driving is already expensive enough, this is not fair, I do not wanna pay more, the government is taking things from me again, etc etc etc." know what that means? mass transit continues to twist in the wind while cars are over-respresented.

 

this is another reason that I dislike cars so much. they get introduced to society, more people can afford them, and once all these people have cars, they feel that they are so entitled to them that they throw the biggest fit in the world if you do anything that they see as encroachment on their privilege (which many wrongly see as a right) to use cars.

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so keep on telling yourselves cars give you freedom, gorgor and brooklynbus. the fact of the matter is that with the ways in which they have (for want of a better word) poisoned society, they are really responsible for a loss of freedom for many people.

 

it is an encroachment on my freedom and the freedom of others who want something to be done about the fact that cars occupy lots of street space to not be able to do anything about these problems on account of the fact nobody who owns a car wants to give up any of that street space s/he uses for his/her car and will fight tooth and nail to keep it.

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When I was younger, as I said, I really didn't mind, but time becomes much more a factor as you grow older.

 

sounds like I gotta make it my business to not allow this to force me to use cars even in old age. I am determined to accomplish that mission.

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That depends. My grandparents are almost in their mid-80s and they still make long trips several times a month, sometimes by car, sometimes by public transport (for them it's not a matter of what's faster; it's a matter of what they feel like using the day they're gonna make the trip).

Making a long trip several times a month is quite different than once a week or every day.

 

To BrooklynIRT:

 

I will only say two things in response to the above. One, I do what I can.

 

The only time I take the train these days is to go to midtown or to my dentist where it takes 20 minutes or more to find parking and I can make it there with mass transit in the same amount of time as driving. I still use the bus for very short trips.

 

The other thing is a response to your "revolution.". I've said it before, in order to accomplish this we need a national mass transportation political action committee or something similar. Just like we have many national groups fighting for the environment since the 1960s who have made tremendous progress because the environment is on everyone's mind, we need to do the same for mass transit. That is the only way we will get the politicians attention to dedicate more money to mass transit. Local groups like Straphangers, and Riders Alliance, etc are not enough but they are a start. This really has to be a national issue. If we can do it for the environment, why not for mass transit?

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it has to be a national issue? you may be right, but I though it would be better to just focus on dense parts of the country like the NY metro area or the Northeast US and let the movement spread to other places.

 

I have no intention of trying to do this sort of thing in the rural areas of the country. if by national you mean all the urban, dense areas of the country, then I can see that.

 

as I said, some of the money that could be used for mass transit is instead used for traffic enforcement (which is a band aid). also if there were less private vehicle use, maybe money used to fix roads due to the presence of so many vehicles could be used for mass transit instead.

 

mass transit would be on everybody's mind if everybody were convinced that using cars in urban areas is not cool (unless you absolutely have to do it, like to transport huge packages or whatever) and that using mass transit even if it presents some difficulties is cool, and if everybody were conditioned to dislike cars at a young age. conditioned to dislike them so much that they would rather deal with much longer trips via mass transit, and hopefully they would band together and get the government to do something about those long trips.

 

until enough influential players eschew cars, however, I will just continue to take my long mass transit trips and whatnot and continue to do whatever makes me happy in life in general and forget about pushing the government (directly or indirectly) until I have enough players on my side to get something done. I dealt with the government months ago by myself and that was a total waste of time and energy.

 

I wonder how the Honorable Sen. Sampson is doing after those corruption charges...seems like yesterday that I saw him walk past me in his office when he returned from Albany just at the end of that half hour lecture that one of the people in his office gave me about that Plaza Auto Mall issue.....

 

also remember that it is much easier to keep the car-independent car-independent than it is to try to break the car-dependent out of car-dependence.

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Yes of course I was talking about dense areas where mass transit makes sense regarding a national effort. One of the things mayoral candidate Sal Albanese was advocating was gathering urban mayors together to petition te federal government for more mass transit funding. That would be a start of a national effort.

 

Sometimes you can fight government on your own but you have to be persistent and wear them out by refusing to take no for an answer. Sometimes, it's just not worth the time though. Regarding Plaza Auto Mall, I think the only chance you have out doing something is ifthe MTA decides to make it an issue after B44 SBS is implemented.

 

Your idea about conditioning people at a young age to dislike automobiles is unrealistic. The idea isn't to get people to take more long distance and time consuming mass transit trips but to try to make those trips take less time and I'm not only talking about SBS (you know how I feel about that) but to think of new innovative ways like long distance express buses between major commercial centers that are affordable and here drivers can alter their route to minimize congestion, reactivating old rights of way, etc so that our mass transit system does not only focus on getting people to the CBD but also between other centers where employment is increased.

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I work downtown, there is no way to avoid taking a crowded subway train down.  I used to take the X90 express bus every day which offered comfort, convenience, and was faster than the subway, and I absolutely loved it.  In the mid to late 2000s if you asked me if I would prefer to drive if parking was free or take the express bus then I would definitely say express bus all the way.  The nearest stop was right on the corner, buses ran every 5 minutes, and I was able to rest or look over my notes which I certainly wouldn't be able to do if I was driving.  Not so much the southbound routing, but the northbound routing was almost the fastest way possible, especially when the driver would take the FDR all the way up to 42nd Street before the MTA added in that annoying 23rd Street stop forcing the bus to use 1st Avenue north of there.

 

Another issue with public transportation is unreliability.  For example the preferred method of traveling along York Avenue is by taxi because the M31 is extremely unreliable and runs only once every 8-10 minutes on the weekends and midday. 

 

I'm not against public transportation; I just feel that the current subway and bus system will never be able to suit my needs.  Trains and buses are overcrowded during rush hour, and at all other times don't run frequently enough. 

 

Like I've said previously, I believe that for me personally Citi Bike will make me use my car much less once it's expanded uptown.  Obviously this won't benefit small kids, the elderly, the disabled, or anyone else that is unable or afraid to ride a bike in traffic, which is why I wouldn't consider it a real alternative to general public transportation.  Of course I'll still use my car when I need to transport stuff and when the weather isn't good, but I would definitely opt to use Citi Bike for short trips to also get exercise, plus only $95 for a year is an insanely low price considering an unlimited metrocard is over $100 per month. 

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Making a long trip several times a month is quite different than once a week or every day.

 

To BrooklynIRT:

 

I will only say two things in response to the above. One, I do what I can.

 

The only time I take the train these days is to go to midtown or to my dentist where it takes 20 minutes or more to find parking and I can make it there with mass transit in the same amount of time as driving. I still use the bus for very short trips.

 

The other thing is a response to your "revolution.". I've said it before, in order to accomplish this we need a national mass transportation political action committee or something similar. Just like we have many national groups fighting for the environment since the 1960s who have made tremendous progress because the environment is on everyone's mind, we need to do the same for mass transit. That is the only way we will get the politicians attention to dedicate more money to mass transit. Local groups like Straphangers, and Riders Alliance, etc are not enough but they are a start. This really has to be a national issue. If we can do it for the environment, why not for mass transit?

I think you're taking this whole pro-transit thing a bit too far.  What I want to see here is a happy balance between those using public transit and those using cars.  Cars have a place in our society and always will as far as I'm concerned.  However, from an environmental point of view, we need to get more people that can use public transit to do so as opposed to just hopping in their cars if the commute via public transit is similar in terms of time and offers a similar level of comfort.  That's why I support keeping more high end transportation services like fast ferries, express buses and so on, which offer more comfort for those who can afford it and wouldn't mind using them as opposed to driving.  

 

Some people attach a stigma to public transportation and if it can be made more high end if you will then I say why not? They certainly sell it up in Europe and get business men to use high end train services like EuroStar or Frecciarossa, with first class service.  The answer certainly isn't to cram everyone on to dirty subways or local buses because not everyone cares for that set up.  Lets have more fast ferries, more express buses, more high-end commuter trains like MetroNorth to get folks out of their cars and get them to be more environmentally friendly when they can be.  

 

I also support programs like Citi Bike. It needs be sold as a cool way to get around.

 

Public transit cannot be just looked at as a way to get people from point A to point B. It has to be marketed differently if we expect those who like their expensive luxury cars to actually consider using public transit because some people just live different lives.  However there are different socio-economic points that must be looked at with transit and explored, the same way that the (MTA) heavily markets MetroNorth here in Riverdale because they know that this is an upper middle class neighborhood where people can afford to use the service.

 

Yes of course I was talking about dense areas where mass transit makes sense regarding a national effort. One of the things mayoral candidate Sal Albanese was advocating was gathering urban mayors together to petition te federal government for more mass transit funding. That would be a start of a national effort.

 

Sometimes you can fight government on your own but you have to be persistent and wear them out by refusing to take no for an answer. Sometimes, it's just not worth the time though. Regarding Plaza Auto Mall, I think the only chance you have out doing something is ifthe MTA decides to make it an issue after B44 SBS is implemented.

 

Your idea about conditioning people at a young age to dislike automobiles is unrealistic. The idea isn't to get people to take more long distance and time consuming mass transit trips but to try to make those trips take less time and I'm not only talking about SBS (you know how I feel about that) but to think of new innovative ways like long distance express buses between major commercial centers that are affordable and here drivers can alter their route to minimize congestion, reactivating old rights of way, etc so that our mass transit system does not only focus on getting people to the CBD but also between other centers where employment is increased.

It's not only unrealistic.  It's downright foolish.  I agree with you in that the idea must be to make transportation more attractive and efficient, something that is a HUGE problem with the current set up here in the city.  It's astounding to me that the only transportation systems that are efficient here are the ones that are the most expensive.  MetroNorth is very efficient and in fact sometimes I find myself getting addicted to it as a result, even though I usually get an Express Bus Plus pass.  If the trains were less crowded and more like the off-peak trains that I use, I would use it even more often than I do as it is a much more pleasant ride in the morning.  At night I wouldn't bother because the express bus is much more comfortable, quicker and convenient.

 

I work downtown, there is no way to avoid taking a crowded subway train down.  I used to take the X90 express bus every day which offered comfort, convenience, and was faster than the subway, and I absolutely loved it.  In the mid to late 2000s if you asked me if I would prefer to drive if parking was free or take the express bus then I would definitely say express bus all the way.  The nearest stop was right on the corner, buses ran every 5 minutes, and I was able to rest or look over my notes which I certainly wouldn't be able to do if I was driving.  Not so much the southbound routing, but the northbound routing was almost the fastest way possible, especially when the driver would take the FDR all the way up to 42nd Street before the MTA added in that annoying 23rd Street stop forcing the bus to use 1st Avenue north of there.

 

Another issue with public transportation is unreliability.  For example the preferred method of traveling along York Avenue is by taxi because the M31 is extremely unreliable and runs only once every 8-10 minutes on the weekends and midday. 

 

I'm not against public transportation; I just feel that the current subway and bus system will never be able to suit my needs.  Trains and buses are overcrowded during rush hour, and at all other times don't run frequently enough. 

 

Like I've said previously, I believe that for me personally Citi Bike will make me use my car much less once it's expanded uptown.  Obviously this won't benefit small kids, the elderly, the disabled, or anyone else that is unable or afraid to ride a bike in traffic, which is why I wouldn't consider it a real alternative to general public transportation.  Of course I'll still use my car when I need to transport stuff and when the weather isn't good, but I would definitely opt to use Citi Bike for short trips to also get exercise, plus only $95 for a year is an insanely low price considering an unlimited metrocard is over $100 per month. 

That's something I really don't get about you and some other Manhattanites.  What is up with this having a bus every 5 minutes as if you can't wait an extra 3-5 minutes?  I mean that just sounds so foolish and spoiled.  Working Downtown I'm sure your commute has to be a good 20 - 25 minutes each way from Yorkville if not more so I don't see how an extra 3-5 minutes each way is going to kill you?   

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That's something I really don't get about you and some other Manhattanites.  What is up with this having a bus every 5 minutes as if you can't wait an extra 3-5 minutes?  I mean that just sounds so foolish and spoiled.  Working Downtown I'm sure your commute has to be a good 20 - 25 minutes each way from Yorkville if not more so I don't see how an extra 3-5 minutes each way is going to kill you?   

 

Once I'm actually in the subway train it takes about 20-25 minutes assuming the usual delays.  I'm not complaining about rush hour frequencies, although the crosstown buses could be improved because all the seats are taken already by the time the reach 1st Avenue.  Skip stop service used to be great and save quite some time, I don't know why they eliminated it in the AM rush.  They still have it westbound during the PM rush.

 

People don't usually take local bus routes for far distances in Manhattan, so if buses are scheduled to run only once every 8-10 minutes then some people would opt to walk or take a cab if the bus isn't in sight.  There have also been times when I've gotten out of the subway and seen a mob of 20+ people waiting for the bus and just chose to take a cab instead because I knew it would take at least 15 minutes to reach York with the bus.

 

It seems like during rush hour the demand outweighs the supply, but during off peak hours the lack of supply causes a steep decrease in demand, which in turn makes the MTA supply less, which causes less demand and so on.

 

You brought up a point about ferries which made me remember that there used to be a ferry from East 90th Street to Lower Manhattan (I forget if it was Wall Street or the WFC).  They canceled that either before or at the same time that the X90 was eliminated.  If it was to the WFC I would have definitely been willing to walk along the promenade down to catch the ferry, even if it did take longer than the subway.  I think we can all agree that a ferry commute would be much more pleasant than a bus-subway commute.

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I agree with this post.  Most people here just blame cars when it's not entirely at fault.

 

The no parking during mid-day on some avenues seems like a great idea on some Brooklyn Avenues I know of.

 

Eliminating a full lane for bike lanes isn't helping with traffic at all either, so I hated that, though I bike sometimes and do wish for some space, but an entire lane is too much.

Brilliant post sorry for the downvote I missed the upvote since I am on a smartphone what aces you have in mind?  

I don't think subways have to be the answer because many subways are already at capacity and are strained as it is.  We need to use our waterways more and provide more ferry service where possible, have express bus service run earlier and/or later in some areas not served by subways and expand commuter rail as well.  MetroNorth was packed this morning and what was scary is that this is supposed to be a time of the year when less people are traveling on MetroNorth.   Instead of expanding ferry service, we instead keep yelling that it's too expensive which is just foolish. Ferry service has done nicely in the Brooklyn esp. in Williamsburg and Greenpoint and I hope that they keep the ferry service in the Rockaways as well that the city started shortly after Hurricane Sandy.  Not everyone is in love with the subway and let's face it many people stay in their cars precisely for that reason, whether some people like to admit that or not.  You give a person the option to take ferry service and I think you'd get some people out of their cars. 

 

The other issue I see constantly is tons of double parking.  Too many damn commercial vehicles making their deliveries. Why can't these trucks make deliveries late at night when there is less traffic?  They also need to get tough with yellow cabs because they often clog up the streets blocking traffic just because they're so busy trying to get a fare.

 

You have a lot of folks here that can afford more expensive transportation and the city should be pushing that, particularly those who like driving because those are people that you want to draw out of their cars.  The subways don't need to be marketed because people will use them regardless because they need them.

I think there should be a ferry from st George to downtown Brooklyn to go with the BRT on the north shore. That will also go to Williamsburg there should be some kind of way to encourage transfers between these ferries and the subways and buses.
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conditioning young people to dislike cars is foolish and unrealistic..ok, what is your opinion on all those car commercials that condition people to like cars? or the fact that cars have been promoted as chick magnets for so many years? you find that less foolish? you think it is less foolish for cars to be promoted like that when you yourself (Via) complain about problems for which the cars and the streets space they occupy are responsible? are you gonna remember all this next time you ride some slow bus down Lex Ave?

 

what are we supposed to do then? tell older, car-dependent people to get rid of their cars tomorrow? you might as well be destroying their whole lifestyle if you tell them to do that. young people have fewer responsibilities and less complicated lives than older people, so it is easier for us to figure out how to live the rest of our lives without cars.

 

Via, you stated before that something needed to be done about delivery zones. what is your opinion on land being set aside for private vehicle storage? would you want them to do something like that on some block in the wealthy Upper East Side so that they no longer have to dedicate as much street space to parked private vehicles, which nobody wants to give up at the moment without provisions being made to store the private vehicles elsewhere? would that not lead to complaints about property values and muggers havens and so on?

 

you want a balanced transportation system, fine. understand that the only way to eliminate the nuisance of cars occupying street space that should be used for loading zones when nobody (merchants and private vehicle owners who are local residents) wants to give it up is to either dedicate land to cheap vehicle storage (which is not great b/c of the muggers haven thing and the property values and so on) or figure out a way to convince people that cars and driving/owning cars in urban areas absolutely sucks and should be avoided at all costs.

 

or stand by and don't cry, watching while the world dies.

 

it was not about going out of the way to take long trips to do whatever, brooklynbus. it was about wanting to go to a certain place and either driving there (least amount of time), taking mass transit there (even if it happens to be a long trip), or not making the trip at all. the bowling alleys close to me are the one in Yonkers, but I will not go to it b/c I do not want to use cars for anything, and a couple in the Bronx. I like bowling. I choose one in the Bronx b/c even if it takes a long time at least I do not have to wait too long for any buses. Yonkers buses kinda suck.

 

I do not take an hour bus ride to a bowling alley in the Bronx instead of a 30 minute drive to the same alley or a 20 minute drive to the one in Yonkers principally to show people that this can be done. I do it because I like bowling and I do not want to use cars. the main reason is to go bowling even though the bowling alleys are not easy to get to. I recognize that the long bus ride is a problem (not that that stops me from doing it anyway, b/c I like bowling but will not use cars to go bowling). if more people recognized that these long bus rides were a problem and stepped up to the plate, something might be done.

 

unlike now when nobody cares and as a result mass transit twists in the wind.

 

Gorgor, you got any other ways of being a player in this revolution? do want to be a player or not?

 

I do sympathize with you about the X90 though. and service cuts in general. the fact that cars are over-represented in this place is partially to blame though.....

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conditioning young people to dislike cars is foolish and unrealistic..ok, what is your opinion on all those car commercials that condition people to like cars? or the fact that cars have been promoted as chick magnets for so many years? you find that less foolish? you think it is less foolish for cars to be promoted like that when you yourself (Via) complain about problems for which the cars and the streets space they occupy are responsible? are you gonna remember all this next time you ride some slow bus down Lex Ave?

 

what are we supposed to do then? tell older, car-dependent people to get rid of their cars tomorrow? you might as well be destroying their whole lifestyle if you tell them to do that. young people have fewer responsibilities and less complicated lives than older people, so it is easier for us to figure out how to live the rest of our lives without cars.

 

Via, you stated before that something needed to be done about delivery zones. what is your opinion on land being set aside for private vehicle storage? would you want them to do something like that on some block in the wealthy Upper East Side so that they no longer have to dedicate as much street space to parked private vehicles, which nobody wants to give up at the moment without provisions being made to store the private vehicles elsewhere? would that not lead to complaints about property values and muggers havens and so on?

 

you want a balanced transportation system, fine. understand that the only way to eliminate the nuisance of cars occupying street space that should be used for loading zones when nobody (merchants and private vehicle owners who are local residents) wants to give it up is to either dedicate land to cheap vehicle storage (which is not great b/c of the muggers haven thing and the property values and so on) or figure out a way to convince people that cars and driving/owning cars in urban areas absolutely sucks and should be avoided at all costs.

 

or stand by and don't cry, watching while the world dies.

There are certain instances in which people can use public transit and it works and certain instances where a car is just practical.  I feel as if areas that are well served by public transit should encourage the use of public transit more because it's just better for everyone and I'm a huge believer in being environmentally friendly and doing my part in cutting down on pollution.  I really contemplated getting a car (but of course something environmentally friendly and that wasn't a gas guzzler) for years on Staten Island because in actuality I think it would've been cheaper than spending money in car service to the express bus and that was one reason I left Staten Island because I simply did not want to be dependent upon a car when I'm living in New York City.  I had myself sold on buying either a European style SUV (i.e. A Volkswagen Touareg or a Tiguan) or an Audi A8 and every time I see one, I keep saying that will be my car when I finally break down and buy one. :lol: The day will come eventually, but for now I'm perfectly fine with the express bus or MetroNorth because both are extremely convenient, run frequently and are only a short walk away... Coming from Brooklyn where I was used to seeing people walk around and use public transit, I just found the idea of running to the car really foolish. 

 

There is something about using a car that just didn't sit right with me and I've never been a huge fan of them.  Now if I need a car to get around then fine and yes I like certain luxury cars like most people but it's never been something that I felt as if I HAD to have.  I always saw having a car as more of a nuisance.  One more thing to watch over and maintain that I'd only be using once in a while if that because I also like the idea of walking to and from the express bus or the Hudson Rail Link Bus and getting some exercise as opposed to just jumping in the car.  There were so many obese people on Staten Island that I saw with this car craze and it really bothered me because I feared that I could very well turn into one of them and actually I did gain some weight constantly taking car service to the express bus instead of getting out and walking.  When I moved to Riverdale, I lost probably 5 - 10 pounds and I look and feel great.  Granted I wasn't fat, but I did realize that I slimmed down a bit more living here and walking around the way that I do.

 

Take this morning for example... I took MetroNorth in and got a little nap.  I could never do such a thing if I had to drive. I just find using some forms of public transit to be really relaxing and that's the way it should be.  It allows you to wind down after a long day and let someone else deal with the traffic and aggravation of driving.  

 

When I moved to Europe, I think I became even more pro-transit because using public transit is really encouraged there.  Heck sometimes I didn't even bother with the bus. I would just walk to Downtown Florence or to the train station from my apartment (which was 15 - 20 minutes tops) since the weather was usually nice and have an espresso or a gelato on the way.  I just feel as if having a car stops you from enjoying the basics of life and unless you're out in the remote suburbs where you really need a car and can actually drive with some piece of mind, I don't think having a car in NYC is worth it.  I would be stressed out about destroying my car on the crap streets here in the city.  <_<

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the only part of your post that bugged me was "the day will come eventually." but no need to get into that unless you want to.

 

other than that, your post resonates with me. I also agree with the thing with car use and weight gain (and, if that gets really bad, eventually becoming entangled with the foul beast that is the US Healthcare system for who knows how long).

 

also gorgor I should have given you props for your comments on the bikeshare program. I agree with most of them.

 

I like the idea of traveling by boat since boats do not have to deal with traffic issues like buses do, but I think boats generate more pollution per passenger than buses do. that is one serious issue I have with them. unless there is something I do not know or am getting wrong about their emissions.

 

I was told that cruise ships generate as much pollution as like a few hundred thousand cars.

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conditioning young people to dislike cars is foolish and unrealistic..ok, what is your opinion on all those car commercials that condition people to like cars? or the fact that cars have been promoted as chick magnets for so many years? you find that less foolish? you think it is less foolish for cars to be promoted like that when you yourself (Via) complain about problems for which the cars and the streets space they occupy are responsible? are you gonna remember all this next time you ride some slow bus down Lex Ave?

 

what are we supposed to do then? tell older, car-dependent people to get rid of their cars tomorrow? you might as well be destroying their whole lifestyle if you tell them to do that. young people have fewer responsibilities and less complicated lives than older people, so it is easier for us to figure out how to live the rest of our lives without cars.

 

Via, you stated before that something needed to be done about delivery zones. what is your opinion on land being set aside for private vehicle storage? would you want them to do something like that on some block in the wealthy Upper East Side so that they no longer have to dedicate as much street space to parked private vehicles, which nobody wants to give up at the moment without provisions being made to store the private vehicles elsewhere? would that not lead to complaints about property values and muggers havens and so on?

 

you want a balanced transportation system, fine. understand that the only way to eliminate the nuisance of cars occupying street space that should be used for loading zones when nobody (merchants and private vehicle owners who are local residents) wants to give it up is to either dedicate land to cheap vehicle storage (which is not great b/c of the muggers haven thing and the property values and so on) or figure out a way to convince people that cars and driving/owning cars in urban areas absolutely sucks and should be avoided at all costs.

 

or stand by and don't cry, watching while the world dies.

 

it was not about going out of the way to take long trips to do whatever, brooklynbus. it was about wanting to go to a certain place and either driving there (least amount of time), taking mass transit there (even if it happens to be a long trip), or not making the trip at all. the bowling alleys close to me are the one in Yonkers, but I will not go to it b/c I do not want to use cars for anything, and a couple in the Bronx. I like bowling. I choose one in the Bronx b/c even if it takes a long time at least I do not have to wait too long for any buses. Yonkers buses kinda suck.

 

I do not take an hour bus ride to a bowling alley in the Bronx instead of a 30 minute drive to the same alley or a 20 minute drive to the one in Yonkers principally to show people that this can be done. I do it because I like bowling and I do not want to use cars. the main reason is to go bowling even though the bowling alleys are not easy to get to. I recognize that the long bus ride is a problem (not that that stops me from doing it anyway, b/c I like bowling but will not use cars to go bowling). if more people recognized that these long bus rides were a problem and stepped up to the plate, something might be done.

 

unlike now when nobody cares and as a result mass transit twists in the wind.

 

Gorgor, you got any other ways of being a player in this revolution? do want to be a player or not?

 

I do sympathize with you about the X90 though. and service cuts in general. the fact that cars are over-represented in this place is partially to blame though.....

BrooklynIRT, I just have to say I commend you for your pro transit stance you've taken and the excellent points you've made in the discussion. While I could do a run down on each, for the sake of uniformity in the thread I'll only quote this post. Moving on with my response below.

 

I must say that some of your reasoning seems very drastic, which is fine with me to be honest, though I'd like to offer some advice, from one pro transit person to another.

 

Not to go against pro transit beliefs but you'll find you will have little success in converting those who prefer their personal autos for primary transport. If anything I'd stand behind making transit appealing to the next generation, which you've mentioned already, but for those already accustomed to jumping in their car I dare say it's a lost cause for many, especially for those in the Boomer generation (no offense to anyone in that bracket).

 

And in regard to traveling to your destination on transit only regardless of travel/wait I can relate to that as well. In that regard you actually remind me of myself as a transit reliant youth, but as you unfortunately know that accomplishes nothing much at all in the way of anything sadly.

 

If anything all I can offer is some encouragement to continue with your beliefs and stand true to them. If nothing comes out of it (on the contrary I know eventually something will) at the very least you were able to lead by example and if no one chose to benefit that's their loss.

 

Regards,

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at the end of the day I do not consider it very sad at all. it is not a material world problem worth getting sad about, and although it is annoying, we do not live in the material world forever. if one accomplishes something in the transit world, sweet, and if not, it is not one's loss.

 

I am never going to feel like a loser (nor should anybody who does things similar to the way I do them when it comes to traveling) regardless of what happens b/c I know that eschewing car use, no matter how many or what kinds of sacrifices may be involved, should keep me in shape with the walking that has to be done to use mass transit. one less thing to worry about when it comes to avoiding becoming entangled with the foul beast that is the US Healthcare system for who knows how long. :)

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There are very few personal autos in the CBD traffic mix because there are already so any deterrents to driving there and the wide variety of other choices, so I wish people would stop blaming the personal auto for the congestion there. Most of the traffic is composed of cabs, limousines, stretch limousines, delivery trucks, utility vehicles, buses of all types, goverment vehicles, etc. I don't think more than 20% of the vehicles are private automobiles.

 

Why doesn't anyone ever complain about all the personal vehicles owned by police who feel they all have the right to drive their private cars to their precinct and illegally park all over the sidewalks at every single police precinct in the city. We certainly don't need their cars in Midtown. They feel that mass transit is beneath them although they could all ride for free. Instead we pick on the automobile drivers who may have no other choice but to drive.

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Once I'm actually in the subway train it takes about 20-25 minutes assuming the usual delays.  I'm not complaining about rush hour frequencies, although the crosstown buses could be improved because all the seats are taken already by the time the reach 1st Avenue.  Skip stop service used to be great and save quite some time, I don't know why they eliminated it in the AM rush.  They still have it westbound during the PM rush.

 

People don't usually take local bus routes for far distances in Manhattan, so if buses are scheduled to run only once every 8-10 minutes then some people would opt to walk or take a cab if the bus isn't in sight.  There have also been times when I've gotten out of the subway and seen a mob of 20+ people waiting for the bus and just chose to take a cab instead because I knew it would take at least 15 minutes to reach York with the bus.

 

It seems like during rush hour the demand outweighs the supply, but during off peak hours the lack of supply causes a steep decrease in demand, which in turn makes the MTA supply less, which causes less demand and so on.

 

You brought up a point about ferries which made me remember that there used to be a ferry from East 90th Street to Lower Manhattan (I forget if it was Wall Street or the WFC).  They canceled that either before or at the same time that the X90 was eliminated.  If it was to the WFC I would have definitely been willing to walk along the promenade down to catch the ferry, even if it did take longer than the subway.  I think we can all agree that a ferry commute would be much more pleasant than a bus-subway commute.

you think it would be a good idea to have a ferry to 178th street from 34th via 90th and Roosevelt island? For connections to upper Manhattan.
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There are very few personal autos in the CBD traffic mix because there are already so any deterrents to driving there and the wide variety of other choices, so I wish people would stop blaming the personal auto for the congestion there. Most of the traffic is composed of cabs, limousines, stretch limousines, delivery trucks, utility vehicles, buses of all types, goverment vehicles, etc. I don't think more than 20% of the vehicles are private automobiles.

 

Why doesn't anyone ever complain about all the personal vehicles owned by police who feel they all have the right to drive their private cars to their precinct and illegally park all over the sidewalks at every single police precinct in the city. We certainly don't need their cars in Midtown. They feel that mass transit is beneath them although they could all ride for free. Instead we pick on the automobile drivers who may have no other choice but to drive.

 

Buses honestly don't contribute that much to the congestion. Besides, of the cars that are there, if they're not yellow cabs they most likely have Jersey plates :P

 

People complain about stuff like that and the police placard abuse (a Daily News reporter actually made a fake placard for a nonexistent department and didn't get ticketed for the entire week), but the problem is that NYPD is in charge of enforcing traffic laws. This is actually very strange, since in most cities the DOT is the one responsible for enforcing things such as parking regulations and meters. Having the NYPD in charge of it all creates some very perverse situations due to massive conflicts of interests, and this should be changed (but it won't happen, because the PBA will cause a huge stink.)

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