DJ MC Posted July 26, 2013 Share #1 Posted July 26, 2013 Shop Plan - Hybrid fleet re-powering/conversion to diesel.MTA Bus has a fleet of hybrid electric buses that are exhibiting a steep downward trend in MDBF and a significant level of component failures compared to other fleets, due to the higher speed of operation for these buses.In 2012, the Board approved a procurement to convert one hybrid bus to clean diesel propulsion. Based on the successful conversion, MTA Bus is seeking to convert the remaining 283 (Orion VII) hybrid buses placed in service in 2006 and 2007, as well as the remaining 105 (Orion VII Next Generation) hybrid buses in the MTA Bus fleet that were placed in service during 2009 and 2010.The conversion will extend the useful life of all 389 buses by three years and will defer bus replacement expenses by almost $200 million from the 2015 - 2019 Capital Program to the 2020 - 2024 Capital Program for the 2006 and 2007 models.The conversion cost is projected to be $19.1 million in 2015 and $19.7 million in 2016. The total cost of converting the entire MTA Bus hybrid fleet of 389 buses (including 105 buses placed in service during 2009 and 2010) is $52.0 million, but the net cost of the conversion will be $26.7 million, since there will be offsets from the elimination of budgeted cost for hybrid component replacement that will be avoided by fleet conversion. These costs primarily represent vendor contract expenses. Post from subchat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XcelsiorBoii4888 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #2 Posted July 26, 2013 Woahh!! so NGs are getting converted to diesels!!! yess!! along with the Orion VII OGs... well it's only MTa bus but that's great news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo19 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #3 Posted July 26, 2013 Well the source is SubChat, so I'm exercising my discretion. Just kidding, This seemed to be a good solution from the start. I'm all for environmentally sensitive, but if the MTA had to replace the components (batteries, internal fixtures, etc.) and as it stood the buses weren't performing at their best than a conversion would be in the best interest. What I am slightly worried about is the structural integrity of the buses as they age. Sure the engines will hold as they're new, but if the buses wear out then they'll have to be replaced sooner than expected. Just a thought for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7LineFan Posted July 26, 2013 Share #4 Posted July 26, 2013 So does this mean that NYCT's hybrids are performing much better than MTAB's? Or are they performing equally badly compared to the straight diesels but they decided to convert only MTAB's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ MC Posted July 26, 2013 Author Share #5 Posted July 26, 2013 Well the source is SubChat, so I'm exercising my discretion. Just kidding, This seemed to be a good solution from the start. I'm all for environmentally sensitive, but if the MTA had to replace the components (batteries, internal fixtures, etc.) and as it stood the buses weren't performing at their best than a conversion would be in the best interest. What I am slightly worried about is the structural integrity of the buses as they age. Sure the engines will hold as they're new, but if the buses wear out then they'll have to be replaced sooner than expected. Just a thought for the future. Just to throw this out it's from the 2014-2017 financial plan, somewhere. I'm not looking through all of that. http://web.mta.info/mta/budget/july2013.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #6 Posted July 26, 2013 What we call this is the low-budget solution to getting a fleet of O7 3Gs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GojiMet86 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #7 Posted July 26, 2013 Would moving the MTA Bus' Orions to NYC Transit solve the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #8 Posted July 26, 2013 I doubt they're too keen on getting the only non-ancient diesel buses out of MTAB...that would leave nothing but RTSes, O5s, and D60HFs for the non-CNG fleet. There aren't enough new diesel buses that could be swapped without making the fleet age even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion VII 4 Life Posted July 26, 2013 Share #9 Posted July 26, 2013 I never expected them to convert the NGs as well... damn I'm gonna miss those 4600 sounds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted July 26, 2013 Share #10 Posted July 26, 2013 What a waste of money for a big 3 year life extension. They are still going to need to buy new buses, it just gets pushed off to the next funding cycle when there will probably be a new board, new governor, etc., and thus will be someone else's headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T J Trainman Posted July 26, 2013 Share #11 Posted July 26, 2013 This is what happens when you DON'T do thorough hybrid testing good I'm glad they are switching them to diesels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #12 Posted July 26, 2013 Well BP and SC really took care of the hybrids. It was LGA, JFK and FR that messed them up and again with the bus swaps made almost all 283 Orion VII's bad. 3500- 3523 was originally at BP and when they switched to FR they were trashed. The Orion VII NG's are at JFK and LGA and that was a mistake. Many JFK Orion NG's sound horrible why not give them to BP when they were first ordered and have the remaining go to FR. Now all 389 MTA bus Orion VII's are not in the best condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTA Bus Posted July 26, 2013 Share #13 Posted July 26, 2013 I Wonder why the MTA didn't just order Orion VII Diesels in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #14 Posted July 26, 2013 I Wonder why the MTA didn't just order Orion VII Diesels in the first place. The loves to waste money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemoreira81 Posted July 26, 2013 Share #15 Posted July 26, 2013 Would moving the MTA Bus' Orions to NYC Transit solve the problem? Different funding sources precludes that. The MTA Bus fleet used 80% federal funds. The MTA Bus batch would probably be expected to last longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 26, 2013 Share #16 Posted July 26, 2013 Good move. Modern diesel engines are incredibly efficient, and by 2015, MaxxForce and EcoMotors' heavy duty opoc engine will likely be ready and available for commercial production to be used on these buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted July 27, 2013 Share #17 Posted July 27, 2013 I thought hybrid was better? I know clean diesel is better than before but isn't it still bad for the environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz Posted July 27, 2013 Share #18 Posted July 27, 2013 I thought hybrid was better? I know clean diesel is better than before but isn't it still bad for the environment."Hybrid buses" still use a diesel engine to power the electric propulsion system. In reality, all hybrid vehicles are bad for the environment because of the hazardous waste produced when manufacturing and/or discarding storage batteries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted July 27, 2013 Share #19 Posted July 27, 2013 So is CNG better then a hybrid electric? Also is CNG better than Clean diesel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemoreira81 Posted July 27, 2013 Share #20 Posted July 27, 2013 So is CNG better then a hybrid electric? Also is CNG better than Clean diesel? The CNG tanks on the new C40LFs are rated for 20 years and are thus expected to outlast the buses. CNG is slightly better because the price of CNG has fallen through the cellar. ..that is why some agencies have gone all CNG (such as the Los Angeles County MTA, which has the largest all-CNG fleet in the USA at about 2,700 or so buses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 27, 2013 Share #21 Posted July 27, 2013 So is CNG better then a hybrid electric? Also is CNG better than Clean diesel? Battery electric > CNG > clean diesel Hybrids irrelevant now that clean diesel engines are so efficient and battery technology is advancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XcelsiorBoii4888 Posted July 27, 2013 Share #22 Posted July 27, 2013 Battery electric > CNG > clean diesel Hybrids irrelevant now that clean diesel engines are so efficient and battery technology is advancing. I think you mean the other way around clean diesel > CnG > hybrid electric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Sith Posted July 27, 2013 Share #23 Posted July 27, 2013 I think you mean the other way around clean diesel > CnG > hybrid electric Nope, he's right...Electric Buses are the cleanest overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ MC Posted July 27, 2013 Author Share #24 Posted July 27, 2013 I Wonder why the MTA didn't just order Orion VII Diesels in the first place. MTA loves to do things the hard way. Now we know why some call the MTA, Money Thrown Away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 27, 2013 Share #25 Posted July 27, 2013 I think you mean the other way around clean diesel > CnG > hybrid electric What? I didn't put hybrid electric in my list, I put battery electric. Reading comprehension, it rocks. Battery electric vehicles are kind of cleanest because they don't have any emissions, so I'm gonna assume you're confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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