EXCLUSIVE: MTA asks retired motormen to help during manpower shortage

[realizm]

No its more like a Meat Grinder...

 

Labor Relations CURES all Foaming...

 

I see.

 

Major wake up call for those who don't yet see that being in RTO isn't what they may think it to be. Layman transit enthusiast knowledge just will not cut it. It's a very complicated skilled profession that requires extensive ability and technical knowledge. 

 

Forget being a T/D..... That must be one of the most complicated professions i have ever seen. The equivalent of an aviation dispatcher, the responsibility is heavy.

[Turbo19]

Not only is it cheaper, they already know the retirees and can trust them.

On the contrary my man.

 

 

No its more like a Meat Grinder...

 

 

Labor Relations CURES all Foaming...

I would say most careers are like that to an extent. Specifically in the transit field I would go as far saying that it'd be detrimental to allow your interests to overly intrude and impede your ability to preform a responsible job.

 

Then again I'm just a transit fan, and one that's losing interest at that.

[RTOMan]

On the contrary my man.

 

 

I would say most careers are like that to an extent. Specifically in the transit field I would go as far saying that it'd be detrimental to allow your interests to overly intrude and impede your ability to preform a responsible job.

 

Then again I'm just a transit fan, and one that's losing interest at that.

 

 

Im a Buff and i still enjoy the job.. They thing is.. You gotta separate the Job from reality...

 

Some of these folks who are starting now make foamers look good...

 

Whiningallthetime.com

I see.

 

Major wake up call for those who don't yet see that being in RTO isn't what they may think it to be. Layman transit enthusiast knowledge just will not cut it. It's a very complicated skilled profession that requires extensive ability and technical knowledge. 

 

Forget being a T/D..... That must be one of the most complicated professions i have ever seen. The equivalent of an aviation dispatcher, the responsibility is heavy.

 

 

Its not even that When it comes to transit knowledge...

 

Follow Instructions Follow Instructions Follow Instructions..

 

Some folks just aren't grasping that...

[CenSin]

Some of these folks who are starting now make foamers look good...

Please do elaborate. This is interesting.

[realizm]

Im a Buff and i still enjoy the job.. They thing is.. You gotta separate the Job from reality...

 

Some of these folks who are starting now make foamers look good...

 

Whiningallthetime.com

 

 

 

Its not even that When it comes to transit knowledge...

 

Follow Instructions Follow Instructions Follow Instructions..

 

Some folks just aren't grasping that...

 

I was talking with a retired T/O today as I was getting footage of the Low-V's. He's telling me what you was saying: The T/Os today as compared to T/O's of long ago don't have as much experience and it shows in how they handle signals during their runs and how they operate equipment. (speaking in layman terms here) Such as proper braking with right timing so as not to struggle with the timers, understanding downgrades, and understanding the feel of the trains. He said that the problem is that nowadays the new recruits are being rushed out of schoolcar too quickly and are faced with learning on their own without proper instruction.

 

Oh waitaminute.... following instructions. OK I got it.

[CenSin]

My test for "newbness" is usually standing on the train for the entire ride. If I have to pick up my feet off the floor to rebalance (and I have very good balance), then the train operator is not operating the best he/she can. The best ones maintain good speed, don't break at the glimmer of every red or yellow light in the far off distance, and know where to slow down on the jarring curves.

[SubwayGuy]

I was talking with a retired T/O today as I was getting footage of the Low-V's. He's telling me what you was saying: The T/Os today as compared to T/O's of long ago don't have as much experience and it shows in how they handle signals during their runs and how they operate equipment. (speaking in layman terms here) Such as proper braking with right timing so as not to struggle with the timers, understanding downgrades, and understanding the feel of the trains. He said that the problem is that nowadays the new recruits are being rushed out of schoolcar too quickly and are faced with learning on their own without proper instruction.

 

Oh waitaminute.... following instructions. OK I got it.

 

Being a "buff" or interested in learning about the subway is NOT an impediment to working down here. In fact, it can make you a better operator because you will naturally be interested in learning how EVERYTHING works.

 

The problem occurs when a "buff" gets all their info from other buffs. A bunch of people who don't really know things speculating about how it really works...and ultimately getting it wrong...sort of like playing the "telephone" game where you pass a story around a circle and by the time it gets back to the person who made it up it's completely different, and, well, if you're going for truth/accuracy...f*cked up. If the "buff" does this, and believes they are always right, and have nothing new to learn, then they will be a bad employee because you can't tell them anything and they are what we call "wrong and strong" - meaning they are often wrong but stubborn about it, and refuse to learn, and therefore refuse to improve.

 

The best piece of advice I ever got is from a guy with over 30 years on the job who told me 2 years ago that every day you should try to learn something new, and as you move throughout your career you should bounce around and try different things in transit if you're interested in them - take every test - to learn as much as you can about the job. And talk to other people to find out about their jobs. Maybe you don't want to be a track worker, but talking to one for a minute waiting for signals to clear, you might find out about a weak section of track that's due to be repaired, so you'll do well under the speed limit as you go through there. Or maybe you'll find out from a TSS who's critiquing you about changes along the line, so you'll be ready for them when they're implemented. Or maybe you'll learn something new about how something works - either a procedure, or a physical device in the system.

 

A lot (NOT ALL) of the new people are getting into trouble for a handful of reasons:

 

-#1: Cautious Instructors: Some of the instructors, while thorough in the material coverage, do not encourage their students to take risks in the SAFE environment of schoolcar. This is because if they are supervising you while operating an empty train and you do something that RCC would be concerned about (like hitting any signal), the instructor is considered "responsible" for the incident. As a result, many instructors don't push the students out of their comfort zone as a habit. So many people don't develop a good feel for the train for a while. The time to come flying into stations at 40+ MPH, and grabbing brake inside the station limits to see where the train stops is when you are on a train with your class and instructors, and NO PASSENGERS. A good instructor will just check to make sure the leaving signal is clear BEFORE encouraging you to do this. You learn how to operate from experience, and if you're coming into stations at 20 MPH and grabbing brake, and letting go every few seconds, you're never going to learn how to stop properly. You have to know the limits of what the train can do, and operate accordingly - of course, when you're on your own you won't challenge those limits or operate on the edge (because it's reckless), but you will have a feel for what they are. And if you have a less than ideal train, you need to adjust your operation, or call it in if you think it's unsafe (because as a T/O you have the duty to inform RCC if you feel continuing operation of a train would be unsafe).

 

-#2: Physical Characteristics: Not enough time is spent on this. Also it mostly consists of visiting towers, and looking at moves on the board. What it should consist of is having students take notes when the train is going down the road and actually getting quizzed on important signals, punch locations, points of no returns, or "hot spots" where there are a lot of incidents such as timers that clear nowhere near the posted speed. Then when the students hit the road, they will be familiar with the railroad more, and there will be a lot less flying by the seat of the pants.

 

-#3: General Attitudes/Society: I know it's the economy, and other things, but there are quite a few people out here who never lose that street/hood/entitled person mentality - AND I DON'T CARE WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD YOU CAME FROM OR GREW UP IN - everyone is expected to act like an adult at transit, and many have made the jump. But that whole hood, "no one disrespects me" culture creates attitude problems, and people WILL NOT do you favors down here if you have it (see the "wrong and strong" example from above). This is also where the "I ain't doing that" mentality comes from - the hood mentality AND ALSO the spoiled mentality...and where the complaints about big ballast, and why do I have to walk structure. All I have to say to that is put on your big boy/girl pants and do it. If anything that's the fun part. It's one of those things where you can brag to your friends when you hang out that "yeah I've stepped over third rails before". Or your pampered/lazy self could p*ssy out and go sit in a cubicle. Just sayin'. Maybe they need to make the T/O tests harder. Maybe there needs to be a reading the iron quiz where everyone needs to get 100%.

 

-#4: More Hands on Time for Less Than Ideal Conditions: So much of the hands on time is spent on how to do things properly. What also needs to be covered more with hands on time is what to do when things go IMPROPERLY. It will happen, and this is often where people get into trouble. Based on early reports of the CI yard derailment: 1-Probie leaves yard track without checking jack. 2-Probie leaves track without asking for permission. 3-Probie splits switch. 4-Probie reports being told to pull the train back and does so without checking the switch and derails the train. Each step made the incident WORSE. Yet at any time, the probie could have taken a deep breath, not done anything, and gone to assess the situation...and STOPPED before they made it worse. If more time was spent in training on how to react to minor things, or operate under less than ideal conditions, they might not become major things later. And this goes beyond troubleshooting.

 

In MY opinion, fixing these 4 things would help A LOT with the reduction of probationary incidents...plus some work rule changes that could help (which is what I think the union should be focusing on...not raises or making people enter stations at 10MPH)...like not treating it as a felony when a T/O who is stopped in the station accidentally lets the deadman go, and is recharged and ready to go in 30 seconds with no delay to service. Call it on, log it for paperwork, and stop treating it as a major incident.

[ScreechyFlange]

Being a "buff" or interested in learning about the subway is NOT an impediment to working down here. In fact, it can make you a better operator because you will naturally be interested in learning how EVERYTHING works.

 

The problem occurs when a "buff" gets all their info from other buffs. A bunch of people who don't really know things speculating about how it really works...and ultimately getting it wrong...sort of like playing the "telephone" game where you pass a story around a circle and by the time it gets back to the person who made it up it's completely different, and, well, if you're going for truth/accuracy...f*cked up. If the "buff" does this, and believes they are always right, and have nothing new to learn, then they will be a bad employee because you can't tell them anything and they are what we call "wrong and strong" - meaning they are often wrong but stubborn about it, and refuse to learn, and therefore refuse to improve.

 

The best piece of advice I ever got is from a guy with over 30 years on the job who told me 2 years ago that every day you should try to learn something new, and as you move throughout your career you should bounce around and try different things in transit if you're interested in them - take every test - to learn as much as you can about the job. And talk to other people to find out about their jobs. Maybe you don't want to be a track worker, but talking to one for a minute waiting for signals to clear, you might find out about a weak section of track that's due to be repaired, so you'll do well under the speed limit as you go through there. Or maybe you'll find out from a TSS who's critiquing you about changes along the line, so you'll be ready for them when they're implemented. Or maybe you'll learn something new about how something works - either a procedure, or a physical device in the system.

 

A lot (NOT ALL) of the new people are getting into trouble for a handful of reasons:

 

-#1: Cautious Instructors: Some of the instructors, while thorough in the material coverage, do not encourage their students to take risks in the SAFE environment of schoolcar. This is because if they are supervising you while operating an empty train and you do something that RCC would be concerned about (like hitting any signal), the instructor is considered "responsible" for the incident. As a result, many instructors don't push the students out of their comfort zone as a habit. So many people don't develop a good feel for the train for a while. The time to come flying into stations at 40+ MPH, and grabbing brake inside the station limits to see where the train stops is when you are on a train with your class and instructors, and NO PASSENGERS. A good instructor will just check to make sure the leaving signal is clear BEFORE encouraging you to do this. You learn how to operate from experience, and if you're coming into stations at 20 MPH and grabbing brake, and letting go every few seconds, you're never going to learn how to stop properly. You have to know the limits of what the train can do, and operate accordingly - of course, when you're on your own you won't challenge those limits or operate on the edge (because it's reckless), but you will have a feel for what they are. And if you have a less than ideal train, you need to adjust your operation, or call it in if you think it's unsafe (because as a T/O you have the duty to inform RCC if you feel continuing operation of a train would be unsafe).

 

-#2: Physical Characteristics: Not enough time is spent on this. Also it mostly consists of visiting towers, and looking at moves on the board. What it should consist of is having students take notes when the train is going down the road and actually getting quizzed on important signals, punch locations, points of no returns, or "hot spots" where there are a lot of incidents such as timers that clear nowhere near the posted speed. Then when the students hit the road, they will be familiar with the railroad more, and there will be a lot less flying by the seat of the pants.

 

-#3: General Attitudes/Society: I know it's the economy, and other things, but there are quite a few people out here who never lose that street/hood/entitled person mentality - AND I DON'T CARE WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD YOU CAME FROM OR GREW UP IN - everyone is expected to act like an adult at transit, and many have made the jump. But that whole hood, "no one disrespects me" culture creates attitude problems, and people WILL NOT do you favors down here if you have it (see the "wrong and strong" example from above). This is also where the "I ain't doing that" mentality comes from - the hood mentality AND ALSO the spoiled mentality...and where the complaints about big ballast, and why do I have to walk structure. All I have to say to that is put on your big boy/girl pants and do it. If anything that's the fun part. It's one of those things where you can brag to your friends when you hang out that "yeah I've stepped over third rails before". Or your pampered/lazy self could p*ssy out and go sit in a cubicle. Just sayin'. Maybe they need to make the T/O tests harder. Maybe there needs to be a reading the iron quiz where everyone needs to get 100%.

 

-#4: More Hands on Time for Less Than Ideal Conditions: So much of the hands on time is spent on how to do things properly. What also needs to be covered more with hands on time is what to do when things go IMPROPERLY. It will happen, and this is often where people get into trouble. Based on early reports of the CI yard derailment: 1-Probie leaves yard track without checking jack. 2-Probie leaves track without asking for permission. 3-Probie splits switch. 4-Probie reports being told to pull the train back and does so without checking the switch and derails the train. Each step made the incident WORSE. Yet at any time, the probie could have taken a deep breath, not done anything, and gone to assess the situation...and STOPPED before they made it worse. If more time was spent in training on how to react to minor things, or operate under less than ideal conditions, they might not become major things later. And this goes beyond troubleshooting.

 

In MY opinion, fixing these 4 things would help A LOT with the reduction of probationary incidents...plus some work rule changes that could help (which is what I think the union should be focusing on...not raises or making people enter stations at 10MPH)...like not treating it as a felony when a T/O who is stopped in the station accidentally lets the deadman go, and is recharged and ready to go in 30 seconds with no delay to service. Call it on, log it for paperwork, and stop treating it as a major incident.

Man I really love/appreciate it when you guys go into detail like this thanks for the insight SubwayGuy.

[RTOMan]

Being a "buff" or interested in learning about the subway is NOT an impediment to working down here. In fact, it can make you a better operator because you will naturally be interested in learning how EVERYTHING works.

 

The problem occurs when a "buff" gets all their info from other buffs. A bunch of people who don't really know things speculating about how it really works...and ultimately getting it wrong...sort of like playing the "telephone" game where you pass a story around a circle and by the time it gets back to the person who made it up it's completely different, and, well, if you're going for truth/accuracy...f*cked up. If the "buff" does this, and believes they are always right, and have nothing new to learn, then they will be a bad employee because you can't tell them anything and they are what we call "wrong and strong" - meaning they are often wrong but stubborn about it, and refuse to learn, and therefore refuse to improve.

 

The best piece of advice I ever got is from a guy with over 30 years on the job who told me 2 years ago that every day you should try to learn something new, and as you move throughout your career you should bounce around and try different things in transit if you're interested in them - take every test - to learn as much as you can about the job. And talk to other people to find out about their jobs. Maybe you don't want to be a track worker, but talking to one for a minute waiting for signals to clear, you might find out about a weak section of track that's due to be repaired, so you'll do well under the speed limit as you go through there. Or maybe you'll find out from a TSS who's critiquing you about changes along the line, so you'll be ready for them when they're implemented. Or maybe you'll learn something new about how something works - either a procedure, or a physical device in the system.

 

A lot (NOT ALL) of the new people are getting into trouble for a handful of reasons:

 

-#1: Cautious Instructors: Some of the instructors, while thorough in the material coverage, do not encourage their students to take risks in the SAFE environment of schoolcar. This is because if they are supervising you while operating an empty train and you do something that RCC would be concerned about (like hitting any signal), the instructor is considered "responsible" for the incident. As a result, many instructors don't push the students out of their comfort zone as a habit. So many people don't develop a good feel for the train for a while. The time to come flying into stations at 40+ MPH, and grabbing brake inside the station limits to see where the train stops is when you are on a train with your class and instructors, and NO PASSENGERS. A good instructor will just check to make sure the leaving signal is clear BEFORE encouraging you to do this. You learn how to operate from experience, and if you're coming into stations at 20 MPH and grabbing brake, and letting go every few seconds, you're never going to learn how to stop properly. You have to know the limits of what the train can do, and operate accordingly - of course, when you're on your own you won't challenge those limits or operate on the edge (because it's reckless), but you will have a feel for what they are. And if you have a less than ideal train, you need to adjust your operation, or call it in if you think it's unsafe (because as a T/O you have the duty to inform RCC if you feel continuing operation of a train would be unsafe).

 

-#2: Physical Characteristics: Not enough time is spent on this. Also it mostly consists of visiting towers, and looking at moves on the board. What it should consist of is having students take notes when the train is going down the road and actually getting quizzed on important signals, punch locations, points of no returns, or "hot spots" where there are a lot of incidents such as timers that clear nowhere near the posted speed. Then when the students hit the road, they will be familiar with the railroad more, and there will be a lot less flying by the seat of the pants.

 

-#3: General Attitudes/Society: I know it's the economy, and other things, but there are quite a few people out here who never lose that street/hood/entitled person mentality - AND I DON'T CARE WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD YOU CAME FROM OR GREW UP IN - everyone is expected to act like an adult at transit, and many have made the jump. But that whole hood, "no one disrespects me" culture creates attitude problems, and people WILL NOT do you favors down here if you have it (see the "wrong and strong" example from above). This is also where the "I ain't doing that" mentality comes from - the hood mentality AND ALSO the spoiled mentality...and where the complaints about big ballast, and why do I have to walk structure. All I have to say to that is put on your big boy/girl pants and do it. If anything that's the fun part. It's one of those things where you can brag to your friends when you hang out that "yeah I've stepped over third rails before". Or your pampered/lazy self could p*ssy out and go sit in a cubicle. Just sayin'. Maybe they need to make the T/O tests harder. Maybe there needs to be a reading the iron quiz where everyone needs to get 100%.

 

-#4: More Hands on Time for Less Than Ideal Conditions: So much of the hands on time is spent on how to do things properly. What also needs to be covered more with hands on time is what to do when things go IMPROPERLY. It will happen, and this is often where people get into trouble. Based on early reports of the CI yard derailment: 1-Probie leaves yard track without checking jack. 2-Probie leaves track without asking for permission. 3-Probie splits switch. 4-Probie reports being told to pull the train back and does so without checking the switch and derails the train. Each step made the incident WORSE. Yet at any time, the probie could have taken a deep breath, not done anything, and gone to assess the situation...and STOPPED before they made it worse. If more time was spent in training on how to react to minor things, or operate under less than ideal conditions, they might not become major things later. And this goes beyond troubleshooting.

 

In MY opinion, fixing these 4 things would help A LOT with the reduction of probationary incidents...plus some work rule changes that could help (which is what I think the union should be focusing on...not raises or making people enter stations at 10MPH)...like not treating it as a felony when a T/O who is stopped in the station accidentally lets the deadman go, and is recharged and ready to go in 30 seconds with no delay to service. Call it on, log it for paperwork, and stop treating it as a major incident.

 

Very Well Said!!!!!