Rockaway Residents Rally For Return Of Abandoned Subway Line

[Vistausss]

The existing bellmouths are not configured to link in that direction, so it would be extremely expensive to turn it back (and there's also no room at Jamaica Center for any more trains, and nobody at 179th is going to take an express Hillside train if it turns southeast into Queens again).

 

If you had read my earlier posts, I was talking about Jamaica LIRR, not Jamaica Center but now that you mention it: theres lots of rom at 179th so thats also an option.

[MHV9218]

What people want it connected to? Everytime I say something about subway vs LIRR everyone is trashing the subway for not being a high standard. In the article in the OP they clearly say "would RAISE the standard of living". So that can only mean they want LIRR service as subway service would lower the standard. Btw, you can connect the ROW to LIRR at Jamaica.

 

You're reading too much into the wording. An improvement in subway service raises the standard of living just like improved rail service raises the standard of living. [The irony is that a Highline-like park would probably improve the quality of life there the most of all by attracting tourists and new businesses, but I guess that's out of the question for some people.]

[Culver]

You're reading too much into the wording. An improvement in subway service raises the standard of living just like improved rail service raises the standard of living. [The irony is that a Highline-like park would probably improve the quality of life there the most of all by attracting tourists and new businesses, but I guess that's out of the question for some people.]

Because tourists can't wait to go out into the middle of nowhere to visit a cheap imitation of the high line. Why it'll be the life of the city within weeks! OR, since there's already a couple of giant parks that the ROW goes through, nobody will give a shit other than the handful of morons who manage to fleece the city and investors out of a shitload of money for a novelty.

[MHV9218]

You can be sarcastic all you want, but the market has proven time and time again that parks and interesting architecture can attract people from just about anywhere and stimulate growth no matter how troubled the area. Let's not forget that the High Line itself was part of a prostitute-ridden and crime-filled industrial meat market less than a decade ago (which many of us remember). The Far West Side was 'the middle of nowhere,' and now it's one of the most gentrified and lively neighborhoods in Manhattan (now, I don't love the gentrification myself, but for the sake of example). If you think New York doesn't change, you've never been here.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

If you had read my earlier posts, I was talking about Jamaica LIRR, not Jamaica Center but now that you mention it: theres lots of rom at 179th so thats also an option.

It doesn't matter. Jamaica is east of the Rockaway branch, not west. West (toward Manhattan) is the direction most people travel in for work and leisure trips. Connecting the Rockaway branch to Jamaica LIRR would only benefit people who live in Queens and work in Nassau or Suffolk counties. Nobody's going to travel away from Manhattan to get to Manhattan.

 

You can be sarcastic all you want, but the market has proven time and time again that parks and interesting architecture can attract people from just about anywhere and stimulate growth no matter how troubled the area. Let's not forget that the High Line itself was part of a prostitute-ridden and crime-filled industrial meat market less than a decade ago (which many of us remember). The Far West Side was 'the middle of nowhere,' and now it's one of the most gentrified and lively neighborhoods in Manhattan (now, I don't love the gentrification myself, but for the sake of example). If you think New York doesn't change, you've never been here.

That's exactly it! The High Line's got interesting modern and historical architecture all around it. The neighborhoods it runs over had very little park space until it opened. There's also its proximity to other city attractions and streets that were already lively most of the day, not to mention relatively easy access by transit. And, of course, plenty of wealthy people who live in or near the area and had the wherewithal to make it happen. The areas near the Rockaway branch don't have any of that going for them and it doesn't look like they're going to any time soon. That's why it makes far more sense to return rail service to the Rockaway branch, than to turn it into the Queensway.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The could have two Broadway Locals on QB. The would run from the Rockaways to Whitehall St. The would run as normal. I think there needs to be a Broadway train at Forest Hills; this allows an easy transfer from Eastern Queens to get a seat on the or because their stop is on the ; once you would get to Woodhaven (If it's an express stop which I support) then you would be able to get a seat as easily. 

Also, If there would be only two QB local trains then on weekends there would be no trains on the local from 63 Drive to 71 Avenue.

But then what would serve Astoria? Either you'd have to increase service significantly or be faced with the potential situation of having two Broadway/Queens Blvd trains and two Broadway/Astoria trains. I don't think the 60th St tunnel would be able to handle that many services

 

But they should cut a few TPH from the if they seriously implement the to the Rockaways to allow for the to return to Forest Hills.

I don't think the Queens Blvd local tracks would be able to handle the , , and trains simultaneously, even if the R is cut back by "a few" TPH. The relay tracks east of 71st Ave would very likely be unable to handle G, M and R trains all at the same time.

[Vistausss]

It doesn't matter. Jamaica is east of the Rockaway branch, not west. West (toward Manhattan) is the direction most people travel in for work and leisure trips. Connecting the Rockaway branch to Jamaica LIRR would only benefit people who live in Queens and work in Nassau or Suffolk counties. Nobody's going to travel away from Manhattan to get to Manhattan.

 

Yes, thats right because there are no LIRR trains to Manhattan from Jamaica and no nearby, let alone buses. Its totally in the middle of nowhere so forget my idea of sending a train down the Rockaway ROW to destination nothing.

[RollOver]

But then what would serve Astoria? Either you'd have to increase service significantly or be faced with the potential situation of having two Broadway/Queens Blvd trains and two Broadway/Astoria trains. I don't think the 60th St tunnel would be able to handle that many services

 

I don't think the Queens Blvd local tracks would be able to handle the , , and trains simultaneously, even if the R is cut back by "a few" TPH. The relay tracks east of 71st Ave would very likely be unable to handle G, M and R trains all at the same time.

 

Of course not. You can never have four services fit within ten minutes each. With only three trains within ten minutes, waiting time will always be 3-4 minutes.

 

The only issue is trains have to relay east of 71st Avenue like you said.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Yes, thats right because there are no LIRR trains to Manhattan from Jamaica and no nearby, let alone buses. Its totally in the middle of nowhere so forget my idea of sending a train down the Rockaway ROW to destination nothing.

Yes, way to completely miss the point of what I said. Just look at any street or rail map of Queens and you'll see exactly why your idea won't go over well with commuters in the Rockaways, Howard Beach or Ozone Park.

[bobtehpanda]

You can be sarcastic all you want, but the market has proven time and time again that parks and interesting architecture can attract people from just about anywhere and stimulate growth no matter how troubled the area. Let's not forget that the High Line itself was part of a prostitute-ridden and crime-filled industrial meat market less than a decade ago (which many of us remember). The Far West Side was 'the middle of nowhere,' and now it's one of the most gentrified and lively neighborhoods in Manhattan (now, I don't love the gentrification myself, but for the sake of example). If you think New York doesn't change, you've never been here.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that it completely throws out the fact that the High Line is extremely unique. The High Line worked because

 

• It was unusable as a transit right-of-way without extreme disruption to the neighborhood and possibly some condemning and eminent domain
• It was between two major transit hubs and tourist destinations, and a short distance from most hotels
• The neighborhood was already up-and-coming and artsy by the time the High Line was conceived, and was upzoned at the same time
• Even without the greenery, it was architecturally interesting because it went through buildings

The Queensway is none of these things. There is nothing architecturally interesting about it - it is a very basic embankment and overpass structure. It is certainly usable for transit with minimal disruption and condemning. It isn't next to anything easily accessible from transit hubs or hotels. Most of all, Woodhaven is not a good place to upzone, nor is it an up-and-coming area anytime soon.

 

Yes, thats right because there are no LIRR trains to Manhattan from Jamaica and no nearby, let alone buses. Its totally in the middle of nowhere so forget my idea of sending a train down the Rockaway ROW to destination nothing.

 

Most people in that area are not heading east to Jamaica (if they were, the and several local buses already do that, as do the various local buses connecting to the Queens Blvd Line and Jamaica itself). Going to Manhattan, on the other hand, is much more difficult and slow, especially if one lives south of the Queens Blvd Line and not along Grand Av/Fresh Pond Rd or Woodhaven Blvd.

 

The aboveground LIRR Main Line ROW is also only configured for Manhattan-bound travel, so you'd have to either condemn some homes to maintain appropriate curve radii or limit speed severely on the Rockaway Line (which would sort of defeat the only advantage the LIRR has over the subway). In any case, most passengers would end up making a reverse-direction transfer at a Rego Park station (which has been included in nearly every proposal for LIRR reactivation, and would also garner the most ridership due to the large amount of destinations nearby). Jamaica is an up-and-coming hotel and retail hub, but Manhattan is where most people want to go judging by ridership data.

 

LIRR also has astronomical running costs compared to NYCT, and has much higher fares within the city, so operationally it would be very difficult (heck, Penn and its successor railroads couldn't break the LIRR, and the MTA is definitely not the agency that is going to manage to do it).

[m7zanr160s]

You're reading too much into the wording. An improvement in subway service raises the standard of living just like improved rail service raises the standard of living. [The irony is that a Highline-like park would probably improve the quality of life there the most of all by attracting tourists and new businesses, but I guess that's out of the question for some people.]

 

And how might these tourist and patrons get to this "Highline-like" park...? I'd say very slowly. If they drive, where will they park? I know the surrounding neighborhoods won't like that. Bus: slow! Subway: well, be prepared to spend the whole day walking. And after your day at the Queensway, be prepared to walk back to where you came from to maybe take a bus to the train again. Sounds like a hassle to me.

[Grand Concourse]

Exactly. if it were converted into a park, it would benefit only the local area. The 'poor' transit options to get there would be it's own enemy. Who'd want to travel all the way to the 'middle' of Queens if the options are bad? At least with the high line in Manhattan, there's other things to do around it and the walk isn't too bad to the nearest bus or subway line. Also doesn't Queens have enough parks? Why sacrifice a rr row just for another park? Find vacant lots to reclaim as park land if they need more parks that bad.

[T J Trainman]

I really hope this line gets reopened for subway service it is needed!!!

[Vistausss]

Yeah. I'm all in for nature but in this case the people from that area need better service and the ROW is still there so why waste the opportunity to reactivate it?

[m7zanr160s]

Plus, a subway line would provide access to the parks they have nearby via a 5-10 min. subway ride (a point brought up by vanshnookenraggen.com).

[Culver]

You can be sarcastic all you want, but the market has proven time and time again that parks and interesting architecture can attract people from just about anywhere and stimulate growth no matter how troubled the area. Let's not forget that the High Line itself was part of a prostitute-ridden and crime-filled industrial meat market less than a decade ago (which many of us remember). The Far West Side was 'the middle of nowhere,' and now it's one of the most gentrified and lively neighborhoods in Manhattan (now, I don't love the gentrification myself, but for the sake of example). If you think New York doesn't change, you've never been here.

The Far West Side was not middle of nowhere. It was a few minutes from Times Square and Herald Square. The boondocks of Queens are not. It will not be a tourist trap. It will be a park that for half its distance runs through another park. The very definition of absolute idiocy.

 

A subway line, however, would actually help the people of southern and western Queens get to Manhattan and northwestern Queens.

 

Also, seeing as how I live in New York, I've "Been Here."

[MHV9218]

The Far West Side was not middle of nowhere. It was a few minutes from Times Square and Herald Square. The boondocks of Queens are not. It will not be a tourist trap. It will be a park that for half its distance runs through another park. The very definition of absolute idiocy.

 

A subway line, however, would actually help the people of southern and western Queens get to Manhattan and northwestern Queens.

 

Also, seeing as how I live in New York, I've "Been Here."

 

It was the middle of nowhere, take it from somebody who knew it as it was then. It's always been isolated, and it felt it. I guess nobody wants to think outside the box on this, but the fact is that even if tourism were slow, having a desirable new public space like that would benefit the community. In turn it would probably cause housing prices to go up and increase the course of gentrification, but it would benefit the area. A subway line would too. But let's not ignore how the housing market works.

[Culver]

It was the middle of nowhere, take it from somebody who knew it as it was then. It's always been isolated, and it felt it. I guess nobody wants to think outside the box on this, but the fact is that even if tourism were slow, having a desirable new public space like that would benefit the community. In turn it would probably cause housing prices to go up and increase the course of gentrification, but it would benefit the area. A subway line would too. But let's not ignore how the housing market works.

It's not thinking outside the box, it's looking at a map and seeing where the Rockaway ROW is in proximity to anything.

The park would be a novelty for hipster douchebags and sleazy real estate developers. That's definitely something to celebrate.

[MHV9218]

Or it would be appreciated by locals and serve to enrich the community while also attracting local small businesses. Something to celebrate.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

QM15/BM5 anyone (I know it costs more)?

 

Those people that has the money can use that as well.

[4P3607]

(Screw you computer, I had to retype this FOUR times. If this doesn't make sense, that's because most of what I typed here wasn't what I originally said).

___

 

I love how you people suddenly ramble with ideas for train lines after hearing this news. I bet most of you forgot that parts of the line are covered by parking lots. Another part is missing a bridge, and some of those trestles may not be structurally sound. It's been more than 50 years since a train ran on there.

 

Here's the problem. One end of the line is on LIRR property, the other end on NYCT Subway property. The most logical option is making it a subway line for one reason: The fares will be cheaper. There are still more problems... If this line were to be connected with the , it would take a while to rebuild that whole area. You'd be inconveincing many customers trying to get to JFK Airport and the Rockaways. In the long run, it would be better. 

You're also forgetting that building a subway tunnel would disrupt the Rego Park community. It's not like it was in the 1930's, the neighborhood has grown alot more. 

 

Interesting to note that this line was never officially abandoned. That's why the tracks and other things still remain. (Yes, the parking lots that sit on top of the tracks are illegal )

 

Also, if a tunnel was to be built, what line would you send down the Branch? The would make it way too long. The would be going in almost a full loop, and also make that pretty long as well. This is why leaving it at 63 Drive would seem to be the sensible option.

There would the problem with the crowds, you'd have alot of people walking from the terminal to the 63 Drive station. Also, they'd have to make 63 Drive ADA Accessable since people would start to complain. I bet making that station accessable is alot cheaper than a subway tunnel though...

 

My ideas: Extend the Rockaway Park shuttle to 63 Drive, and call it the  . seems to be the most sensibile letter since it would run with another 8th Ave line, and the used to run in the Rockaways anyway. It can use 300' trains since I don't think the LIRR platforms would handle 600' trains. Also, if the majority of the neighborhood allows, and there's enough money, then a subway tunnel can be built to connect it to the Queens Blvd line. But as I said, where would this line go? (There's the other option of just making another underground station and make 63 Drive into a complex, but that would be too costly and complicated).

 

63 Drive can be an island platform station, and there would be walkways to the street by where the underpass for the LIRR is. Walking to the QBL station can be a problem since it is quite far, but people can rely on the Q38. (Make a bus stop right where the station exit is, and put a few extra buses serving that area that can short-turn. The Q38 is also a good idea since it connects with the Q52/3, which people can use to take to other lines, or stations on that line). 

 

___________

Before there was any news on this maybe becoming a subway line, I was thinking of making it something like the Former Putnam line in Van Cortlandt Park. Make it a running / mountain bike trail, there's no need for any of this hipsterized high-line junk. Add a few staircases at major streets (maybe even ramps), and that's done. That would be the cheapest option. (Maybe not the best due to crime... Damn you crime).

 

I still like the idea of this becoming a train line (What person on here doesn't ). I live not too far from 63 Drive, so this would be helpful for me, and lots of other people. It would take stress off the Q52/53, and the Q52/3 can be what the Q60 does, pick up persons who are disabled and don't need to go that far without having to go all the way to the train. 

 

(Like I said, because of my computer being a complete a**hole, I lost most of what I originally said. Hope this makes sense). 

[Grand Concourse]

Not to burst your bubble, but i have said they could extend the rock park s to end around woodhaven. I don't know if those former lirr stops were that short, but i would imagine they should be as long as any other typical lirr stop, but i do agree that a 300' train should be sufficient.

[Wallyhorse]

As said before (this assumes the SAS would be open before the Rockaway Branch):

returns, running from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park and replaces the on Queens Boulevard.

and swap Brooklyn terminals, with the running 95th Street-Bay Ridge to 205th Street in the Bronx and the running via West End from Coney Island-Ditmars Boulevard and the returns to being a 24/7 line.  This is done so the has a yard in Brooklyn since the has Concourse Yard.

 

takes over the current 's role of running to Astoria on weekdays (5:30 AM-10:30 PM) and at all other times goes with the to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement SAS service nights and weekends.

[mtattrain]

As said before (this assumes the SAS would be open before the Rockaway Branch):

 

returns, running from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park and replaces the on Queens Boulevard.

 

and swap Brooklyn terminals, with the running 95th Street-Bay Ridge to 205th Street in the Bronx and the running via West End from Coney Island-Ditmars Boulevard and the returns to being a 24/7 line.  This is done so the has a yard in Brooklyn since the has Concourse Yard.

 

takes over the current 's role of running to Astoria on weekdays (5:30 AM-10:30 PM) and at all other times goes with the to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement SAS service nights and weekends.

 

Too much service confusion would occur; we just need an existing express or local train ( or preferably) from the Rockaways, up along the line, and to Midtown Manhattan.

[Vistausss]

@4P3607: Building a structure over a parking lot is not really a problem. I've seen pictures of those lots. Also, they could remove the lots if needed. They're illegal so they may be removed at any time.