Official The Official PATH thread

[BreeddekalbL]

9 car trains on nwk-wtc 

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=585516620277841&id=100064585246571&set=a.298097245686448&sfnsn=mo&mibextid=6aamW6

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by BreeddekalbL

[DCTransitFilms]

PATH is debuting the new PA-5 cars next week

https://www.nj.com/news/2023/04/longer-trains-to-address-overcrowding-ready-to-debut-on-path-commuter-rail-line.html

[Lawrence St]

Why is 33rd St not named 34th St like the rest of the lines near it?

[Lex]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Why is 33rd St not named 34th St like the rest of the lines near it?

Well, for one, it doesn't extend that far.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Ok I've ridden PATH quite a few times recently, and here's my honest review:

Compared to most other US high-capacity subway systems, it actually seems like they're improving quite a bit. When you have so few stations, upgrading anyone can seem like a huge difference, but WTC and Harrison are both new, Exchange Place seems fairly new and very large, and several other stations are seeing quite a bit of active construction to install elevators and extend platforms, and generally make things nicer. The platform extensions on the NWK-WTC line was a particularly good idea because almost all of the stations except Grove St at this point had been able to accommodate up to 10 car trains, so that's a nice capacity improvement. I also generally find PATH to be cleaner and have less homeless and mentally disturbed people than the NYC subway.

One thing I dislike about PATH though is their midday, weekend, and night headways are really bad. On weekends and nights, the way the 33rd St bound train goes at Hoboken, sits for 10 minutes, and then turns around before continuing it's journey up to 33rd St is annoying. I also don't like how the NWK-WTC line runs every 20+ minutes by default anytime that's not rush hour - it's trains can get very very crowded, and there's little margin for error because one train being delayed or missed can add so much time to people's commutes. I remember I actually couldn't board a midday NWK train once because it was just too overcrowded, and had to wait 20 minutes for the next train; unacceptable, and just adding 1 more train into circulation on the line would make a huge difference given it's only like 22 minutes end-to-end.

The stations range from very nice and overbuilt to "meh". WTC, Exchange Place, Jornal Square, Harrison, and Newark especially are all very large and nice stations. I don't particularly like the 33rd St station because it's a high ridership terminal station, but you can only enter/exit at the Northern end of the station, meaning everyone getting off has to walk up the relatively narrow platform to leave; almost seems like it could be a safety hazard.

The PATH fleet is nice and new, though it's very homogenous; generally I think only having 1 model in your fleet is bad because it means you need to make 1 mega-order to replace everything one day, and if something goes wrong with that model, you're screwed.

The last thing is idk if this is just me and because of construction, but the 33rd St tunnel under the Hudson feels *very* slow, especially compared to the WTC tunnel.

Overall, good, fairly well maintained system (by American standards) that could work on providing better service during non-rush hours.

[Cait Sith]

9 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

One thing I dislike about PATH though is their midday, weekend, and night headways are really bad. On weekends and nights, the way the 33rd St bound train goes at Hoboken, sits for 10 minutes, and then turns around before continuing it's journey up to 33rd St is annoying. I also don't like how the NWK-WTC line runs every 20+ minutes by default anytime that's not rush hour - it's trains can get very very crowded, and there's little margin for error because one train being delayed or missed can add so much time to people's commutes. I remember I actually couldn't board a midday NWK train once because it was just too overcrowded, and had to wait 20 minutes for the next train; unacceptable, and just adding 1 more train into circulation on the line would make a huge difference given it's only like 22 minutes end-to-end.

PATH isn't operated like a subway....it's operated like a railroad. Their headways have always been like this even before COVID.

9 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

The stations range from very nice and overbuilt to "meh". WTC, Exchange Place, Jornal Square, Harrison, and Newark especially are all very large and nice stations. I don't particularly like the 33rd St station because it's a high ridership terminal station, but you can only enter/exit at the Northern end of the station, meaning everyone getting off has to walk up the relatively narrow platform to leave; almost seems like it could be a safety hazard.

33rd has southern exits that's mainly used during the during the day and rush hours. The northern exits are used more due to the subway connection and the closer proximity to Penn Station.

9 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

The PATH fleet is nice and new, though it's very homogenous; generally I think only having 1 model in your fleet is bad because it means you need to make 1 mega-order to replace everything one day, and if something goes wrong with that model, you're screwed.

Typical fan logic.

PATH has been operating with one single fleet since 2009, and they've had very little to no issues with the PA-5 fleet. PATH in general has never had catastrophic fleet failures like the NYC Subway, and you fans need to stop making that kind of comparisons. Even if PATH had issues with some of their trains, they have a plethora of spare trains available. Having one single fleet reduces costs in maintenance and makes the systemwide fleet more flexible, especially since PATH doesn't do 2, 3 or 4 car married sets. They just put cars together in any fashion.

9 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

The last thing is idk if this is just me and because of construction, but the 33rd St tunnel under the Hudson feels *very* slow, especially compared to the WTC tunnel.

That's because there's more tighter curves and switches between Christopher and NJ. From Christopher Street going to NJ, there's several different junctions they go through and meet with other tracks from the Hoboken and JSQ branches. The Uptown Hudson Tubes were built in the late 1800s/early 1900s and was designed as such. WTC to Exchange Place is literally a straight shoot.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

3 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

PATH isn't operated like a subway....it's operated like a railroad. Their headways have always been like this even before COVID.

33rd has southern exits that's mainly used during the during the day and rush hours. The northern exits are used more due to the subway connection and the closer proximity to Penn Station.

Typical fan logic.

PATH has been operating with one single fleet since 2009, and they've had very little to no issues with the PA-5 fleet. PATH in general has never had catastrophic fleet failures like the NYC Subway, and you fans need to stop making that kind of comparisons. Even if PATH had issues with some of their trains, they have a plethora of spare trains available. Having one single fleet reduces costs in maintenance and makes the systemwide fleet more flexible, especially since PATH doesn't do 2, 3 or 4 car married sets. They just put cars together in any fashion.

That's because there's more tighter curves and switches between Christopher and NJ. From Christopher Street going to NJ, there's several different junctions they go through and meet with other tracks from the Hoboken and JSQ branches. The Uptown Hudson Tubes were built in the late 1800s/early 1900s and was designed as such. WTC to Exchange Place is literally a straight shoot.

Thanks for these insights. PATH is weird because it functionally is more of an inner-city rapid transit even though it's operationally treated like a railroad because it covers multiple jurisdictions and runs parallel to the Northeast Corridor at one point. During rush hours though, trains come very very frequently, but the aggressive drop-off in service in non-rush hours is very stark and just because it's operationally a railroad, I don't see why they can't run just an extra tph or two during these off-peak hours. I think any ordinary commuter sees PATH as more like the NYC Subway than something like NJT.

As for the PA-05s, since they're already in service and have been fine for the past few years as a fleet, having the single fleet is ok. I'm just saying when you're only using 1 car-model, you have to be very careful when you're in the process of replacing the existing fleet, but that's prolly decades away.

The "S" curve before Christopher St on the 33rd St tunnel is very annoying. Like had they just aligned it slightly differently it would've been a straight shot and everything would've been fine, but nope. I do give whoever constructed the Hudson Tubes credit for doing underground flyover junctions; that must've been quite an engineering feat at the time, and allows for such frequent headways during rush hours.

[40 to 241st]

Path should go deeper into Manhattan

the 33rdst trains should be extended north to 42nd 

The WTC could go to wall street 

[biGC323232]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:01 PM, 40 to 241st said:

Path should go deeper into Manhattan

the 33rdst trains should be extended north to 42nd 

The WTC could go to wall street 

I agree PATH Should have been Extended to serve 42st..Not so much wall st...Thats  literally right around the corner.... 

[Cait Sith]

1 hour ago, biGC323232 said:

I agree PATH Should have been Extended to serve 42st..Not so much wall st...Thats  literally right around the corner.... 

If I recall, PATH was supposed to go to Grand Central in its early days. They also provisioned for a spur at 9th Street that would've sent trains over to Astor Place as well.

[Lawrence St]

Speaking of extensions what's taking so long with this Newark Airport extension?

[biGC323232]

3 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

If I recall, PATH was supposed to go to Grand Central in its early days. They also provisioned for a spur at 9th Street that would've sent trains over to Astor Place as well.

Big facts...So true about trains going to astor place and Grand Central....In my opinion PATH should have extended to Tsq or Grand Central at the time they made room to fit Todays IND 6 ave Line...Can u imagine the Path at TSQ or  Grand Central  nowadays...

[40 to 241st]

23 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Speaking of extensions what's taking so long with this Newark Airport extension?

I heard of that in my opininion both 33st and Wtc should serve there I don't get the point in ending one at Journal Sq

[Cait Sith]

42 minutes ago, 40 to 241st said:

I heard of that in my opininion both 33st and Wtc should serve there I don't get the point in ending one at Journal Sq

Simple, to keep up with existing demand. Also, sending all of those trains to Newark would cause a bottleneck.

1 hour ago, biGC323232 said:

Big facts...So true about trains going to astor place and Grand Central....In my opinion PATH should have extended to Tsq or Grand Central at the time they made room to fit Todays IND 6 ave Line...Can u imagine the Path at TSQ or  Grand Central  nowadays...

Nah not Times Square....they got the buses, they'll be fine .

[40 to 241st]

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

Simple, to keep up with existing demand. Also, sending all of those trains to Newark would cause a bottleneck.

Nah not Times Square....they got the buses, they'll be fine .

Oh now that make sence but the one at WTC should go further into Manhatttan to give better Newark access 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Why does PATH seem to do a lot of single-track operations on weekends, even when there's no apparent work going on? On weekends it seems they often will only use the Northern WTC tunnel for both WTC and Newark bound trains. Also only operating that service every 20 minutes all day throughout the weekend is criminal. I've also noticed on the weird JSQ-33rd via Hoboken weekend service sometimes the trains just sit for 10-15 minutes at Hoboken, while other times it's just 2-3 minutes. Any idea why this is?

Secondly, when there's an issue or draw bridge lift on the section between Journal Square and Newark why can't they short-turn some of the Newark-World Trade Center trains at Newark? I remember one time they had a track problem on the section between Journal Square and Harrisson and they ran the whole NWK-WTC service on 20 minute headways during rush hour (normally it's every 4 minutes) which was a disaster and lead to dangerous levels of overcrowding at the WTC.

[Cait Sith]

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Why does PATH seem to do a lot of single-track operations on weekends, even when there's no apparent work going on?

This is assuming you even know where the work is happening.

There is ALWAYS work being done on the weekend. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I've also noticed on the weird JSQ-33rd via Hoboken weekend service sometimes the trains just sit for 10-15 minutes at Hoboken, while other times it's just 2-3 minutes. Any idea why this is?

Crews have to change positions and stay on the schedule. Weekend service in general is vastly different from weekday service, as service patterns are different.

 

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Secondly, when there's an issue or draw bridge lift on the section between Journal Square and Newark why can't they short-turn some of the Newark-World Trade Center trains at Newark? I remember one time they had a track problem on the section between Journal Square and Harrisson and they ran the whole NWK-WTC service on 20 minute headways during rush hour (normally it's every 4 minutes) which was a disaster and lead to dangerous levels of overcrowding at the WTC.

I don't understand this question at all. Short turning trains at.....the terminal?

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

23 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

This is assuming you even know where the work is happening.

There is ALWAYS work being done on the weekend. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Crews have to change positions and stay on the schedule. Weekend service in general is vastly different from weekday service, as service patterns are different.

 

I don't understand this question at all. Short turning trains at.....the terminal?

Ye that's a fair point. The reason I asked is because I thought the restoration project of the WTC tubes which lead to actual full shutdowns was officially done, but maybe they're doing another project, idk.

Also I meant short-turning WTC-NWK at Journal Square lol. I've had like 2 experiences now where a "Hackensack river draw-bridge lift" has delayed the entire line during peak hours, and I wonder if there's some sort of logistical reason they can't or won't short turn some trains at JSQ? On the NYC subway, MTA will often short turn some trains if there's a delay further down the line so the entire line isn't screwed.

[kev2112]

Anybody here have any experience with PATH as engineer? I’m going for the Practical/Oral test this week, and can’t find any info on it

[Nitro]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:58 AM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Ok I've ridden PATH quite a few times recently, and here's my honest review:

Compared to most other US high-capacity subway systems, it actually seems like they're improving quite a bit. When you have so few stations, upgrading anyone can seem like a huge difference, but WTC and Harrison are both new, Exchange Place seems fairly new and very large, and several other stations are seeing quite a bit of active construction to install elevators and extend platforms, and generally make things nicer. The platform extensions on the NWK-WTC line was a particularly good idea because almost all of the stations except Grove St at this point had been able to accommodate up to 10 car trains, so that's a nice capacity improvement. I also generally find PATH to be cleaner and have less homeless and mentally disturbed people than the NYC subway.

One thing I dislike about PATH though is their midday, weekend, and night headways are really bad. On weekends and nights, the way the 33rd St bound train goes at Hoboken, sits for 10 minutes, and then turns around before continuing it's journey up to 33rd St is annoying. I also don't like how the NWK-WTC line runs every 20+ minutes by default anytime that's not rush hour - it's trains can get very very crowded, and there's little margin for error because one train being delayed or missed can add so much time to people's commutes. I remember I actually couldn't board a midday NWK train once because it was just too overcrowded, and had to wait 20 minutes for the next train; unacceptable, and just adding 1 more train into circulation on the line would make a huge difference given it's only like 22 minutes end-to-end.

The stations range from very nice and overbuilt to "meh". WTC, Exchange Place, Jornal Square, Harrison, and Newark especially are all very large and nice stations. I don't particularly like the 33rd St station because it's a high ridership terminal station, but you can only enter/exit at the Northern end of the station, meaning everyone getting off has to walk up the relatively narrow platform to leave; almost seems like it could be a safety hazard.

The PATH fleet is nice and new, though it's very homogenous; generally I think only having 1 model in your fleet is bad because it means you need to make 1 mega-order to replace everything one day, and if something goes wrong with that model, you're screwed.

The last thing is idk if this is just me and because of construction, but the 33rd St tunnel under the Hudson feels *very* slow, especially compared to the WTC tunnel.

Overall, good, fairly well maintained system (by American standards) that could work on providing better service during non-rush hours.

That's why they should have keep the PA-4s around incase that were to ever happen. But no New York wanted modern cheap broken ass trains and they got what they wanted. This is coming from a NYer who knows most of America's Trains & plenty of buses/light rail too.

[Nitro]

On 5/28/2023 at 12:38 AM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Ye that's a fair point. The reason I asked is because I thought the restoration project of the WTC tubes which lead to actual full shutdowns was officially done, but maybe they're doing another project, idk.

Also I meant short-turning WTC-NWK at Journal Square lol. I've had like 2 experiences now where a "Hackensack river draw-bridge lift" has delayed the entire line during peak hours, and I wonder if there's some sort of logistical reason they can't or won't short turn some trains at JSQ? On the NYC subway, MTA will often short turn some trains if there's a delay further down the line so the entire line isn't screwed.

The Newark/WTC line is a 13.7 mile route plus it would lead to congestion at Grove Street & Journal Square if they started to short turn Newark bound Trains.

[BreeddekalbL]

How would we feel about folding path into NJ transit, per JC mayor fulop's transit white paper for governor 

[Lex]

30 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

How would we feel about folding path into NJ transit, per JC mayor fulop's transit white paper for governor 

Would NJT actually strive for compatibility with OMNY? If not, it's a hard pass from me.

That's not just about the H&M, either.

[BreeddekalbL]

13 hours ago, Lex said:

Would NJT actually strive for compatibility with OMNY? If not, it's a hard pass from me.

That's not just about the H&M, either.

Claims it would be investment if folded into NJT

If you want to see for yourself just put your information in at https://stevenfulop.com/transportation-policy/ to download it then unsubscribe after 

[go25]

16 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

How would we feel about folding path into NJ transit, per JC mayor fulop's transit white paper for governor 

Nah man. NJT can't pay their locomotive engineers, much less take on PATH, but they sure have $400 million to move to a new HQ