bobtehpanda Posted October 2, 2013 Share #26 Posted October 2, 2013 The problem with Obamacare is that they started out with good intentions (put all uninsured people on insurance so hospitals don't go broke), but then Obama made mistake #1 by letting Congress handle the details. Mistake #2 was botching PR for it and not promoting it well enough, which allowed Palin to rant about 'death panels'. This threw out the only reasonable way to control costs, which would be a health panel determining which treatments were cost-effective. Every civilized country (and every insurer) has one of these, so it's not like this is something new. Mistake #3 was relying on states to comply, which they obviously have not, and this is going to create some issues. For-profit healthcare that is based on the amount of services done, and not the effectiveness of said services, is inherently going to be very expensive. The fact that we are largely sticking with this system means that costs will continue to spiral out of control. Obama made the mistake of trying to achieve this through incremental pain - you either go all the way or you don't. This has some very interesting parallels - John F. Kennedy was a 'celebrity' president who only consulted with a very close, elite inner circle, proposed a lot of reforms, naively assumed they were going to pass, and then watched every single proposal fail and die. He has a vice president who is decades older than him and is a skilled political operator. LBJ ended up effectively pushing and passing most of Kennedy's ideas during his Administration, despite being a Southern Democrat. But who will be Obama's LBJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted October 2, 2013 Share #27 Posted October 2, 2013 But this isn't an exclusive GOP tactic. It's been done in the past like with the Democrats against Reagan. Of course the media is likely quick to defend Obama since he's their guy. I would have said the same thing about Democrats if I were there. Where'd the middle ground when you need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokkemon Posted October 2, 2013 Share #28 Posted October 2, 2013 It would be nice if they just passed a budget like a civilized congress. Too bad the American people voted for this. Its directly the voters' fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanfortitude Posted October 2, 2013 Share #29 Posted October 2, 2013 It would be nice if they just passed a budget like a civilized congress. Too bad the American people voted for this. Its directly the voters' fault. Yes really. Because we have that much power over what these people do after they've seduced us into voting for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokkemon Posted October 2, 2013 Share #30 Posted October 2, 2013 Then don't vote for them. If enough people bother to realize that the power actually lies with the people, then government would work much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanfortitude Posted October 2, 2013 Share #31 Posted October 2, 2013 Then don't vote for them. If enough people bother to realize that the power actually lies with the people, then government would work much better. What's funny is there's a large number of people who don't vote at all. It would be interesting if there were a way for ordinary people who haven't played the game to start just campaigning and getting their name out there. With the way the internet is we don't even have to travel around anymore to communicate with people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 2, 2013 Share #32 Posted October 2, 2013 @ VG8 Seems that that old axiom of "majority rules" only applies when you are in the majority, correct? That's not how I remember those civics lessons of yesteryear. I still maintain that President Obama would not have won re-election if the majority of voters were against ACA. The defining difference between the candidates was the ACA. And the election wasn't even close. Game. Set. Match. Give me a break. I heard about people voting for Obama because they thought he was "cool", as in he's cool because he's a black guy as if you vote for someone based on popularity. That's ridiculous. Votes should be given upon a candidate's experience and policies, not if they're cool or not, and while he may have won the majority, that doesn't mean that those of us who didn't vote for him have no voice or better yet that we should just stand back and allow the Democrats to proceed as they please as if this is a dictatorship. Millions of voters did not vote for Obama and we oppose this egregious plan. I still go back to the following question, which no one has answered: How is Obamacare going to be cheaper for those who couldn't afford healthcare before this was put into place? I've looked at the costs for these plans and there is nothing "affordable" about them for many Americans struggling in the current economy. I don't see how you could claim that Americans overwhelmingly voted for this plan when millions of them can't afford healthcare and won't be able to afford Obamacare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted October 2, 2013 Share #33 Posted October 2, 2013 Speaking of Palin, what about Pelosi's 'we have to pass it to find out what's in it'. What kind of shit is that? How about cut the crap and tell us first before you ram it down on everyone and also explain why there are exemptions. I wouldn't have any problems if everyone was forced on it, but the fact some ppl already opted out makes me very suspicious about it. And of course for jobs, they are dumping more full time workers to hire more part time ones just so they don't have to pay extra on medical costs. I would have said the same thing about Democrats if I were there. Where'd the middle ground when you need it? Well when you have a president and senate that want things their way against the house of rep, they pretty much created a stalemate. Ideally everyone shouldn't be paid if everyone else isn't. That would get them to hurry up and resolve this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanfortitude Posted October 2, 2013 Share #34 Posted October 2, 2013 Speaking of Palin, what about Pelosi's 'we have to pass it to find out what's in it'. What kind of shit is that? How about cut the crap and tell us first before you ram it down on everyone and also explain why there are exemptions. I wouldn't have any problems if everyone was forced on it, but the fact some ppl already opted out makes me very suspicious about it. And of course for jobs, they are dumping more full time workers to hire more part time ones just so they don't have to pay extra on medical costs. Well when you have a president and senate that want things their way against the house of rep, they pretty much created a stalemate. Ideally everyone shouldn't be paid if everyone else isn't. That would get them to hurry up and resolve this mess. I didn't see it so I can't say for sure. So don't take this as me defending Pelosi. But sometimes an idea needs to have its beta run before its tweaked to perfection. There are some things that shouldn't even hit us before its worked out. I believe that much too. It's as I said in a previous post. If our current group of reps showed a better track record of working on things I'd welcome this approach easily. Because a unified government working on things for the people maybe won't get it right on the first try but we'd have an easier time accepting things they propose because we'd have confidence in their ability to work on the fix to make it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 2, 2013 Share #35 Posted October 2, 2013 How is Obamacare going to be cheaper for those who couldn't afford healthcare before this was put into place? I've looked at the costs for these plans and there is nothing "affordable" about them for many Americans struggling in the current economy. I don't see how you could claim that Americans overwhelmingly voted for this plan when millions of them can't afford healthcare and won't be able to afford Obamacare. You vote for representatives, who vote for laws. That's how representative democracy works. Your representative doesn't vote the way you like? Tough luck. It would be ridiculously expensive to hold a referendum for all the laws we pass. What's funny is there's a large number of people who don't vote at all. It would be interesting if there were a way for ordinary people who haven't played the game to start just campaigning and getting their name out there. With the way the internet is we don't even have to travel around anymore to communicate with people. Australia used to have compulsory voting, and votes using "first preference" votes. Under this system, voters indicate their preference of votes (first preference, second, so on, so forth). Say there are 6 candidates. After the 'first round', the sixth place winner is taken out, and their vote is given to their 'second preference'. Then the fifth place winner is taken out and their vote is given to their next preference. It goes on until someone tops 50%. Combining these with open primaries would be the best for American civics, IMO, but not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 2, 2013 Share #36 Posted October 2, 2013 You vote for representatives, who vote for laws. That's how representative democracy works. Your representative doesn't vote the way you like? Tough luck. It would be ridiculously expensive to hold a referendum for all the laws we pass. You can't possibly sit here and tell me that Americans voted for a mandatory healthcare program that many can't even afford. Please. Americans wanted AFFORDABLE healthcare, which they still aren't getting. That's why so many people are going to be opting to take the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted October 2, 2013 Share #37 Posted October 2, 2013 The idea behind Obamacare is nice to the ears—get the health system to support everyone cheaply, eliminate unnecessary health care, and thus make the entire health care system leaner. The problem is the beginning. There is no incentive for people like me to sign up since it makes no economic sense, and those who have the most to lose and least to gain are the only ones that can make Obamacare successful. It's a catch-22. Do I want the ideals of Obamacare realized? Yes. Do I want to participate in Obamacare as it stands now? No. But Obamacare shouldn't have to suffer an abortion until it's been given a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousNYLover Posted October 2, 2013 Share #38 Posted October 2, 2013 How anyone seen video from Whitehouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHV9218 Posted October 2, 2013 Share #39 Posted October 2, 2013 The idea behind Obamacare is nice to the ears—get the health system to support everyone cheaply, eliminate unnecessary health care, and thus make the entire health care system leaner. The problem is the beginning. There is no incentive for people like me to sign up since it makes no economic sense, and those who have the most to lose and least to gain are the only ones that can make Obamacare successful. It's a catch-22. Do I want the ideals of Obamacare realized? Yes. Do I want to participate in Obamacare as it stands now? No. But Obamacare shouldn't have to suffer an abortion until it's been given a chance. That's not a failure, that's the design. 80% of people will not be changing their health care, and you're one of them. What it comes down to is providing more affordable care for those who need it. Just because Obama won the majority doesn't mean the rest of us who didn't vote for him agree with this ridiculous plan and it's unpatriotic to strip away people's rights to choose. Furthermore these plans are not exactly cheap, so forcing Americans to buy plans that they can't afford is just making things more difficult for the people that this is supposed to "help". If the American people disliked Obamacare that much, they shouldn't have re-elected the preisdent. But they did not and they did, so you are in the minority here. It is not "forcing Americans" to buy plans they can't afford. You seem confused. You can't possibly sit here and tell me that Americans voted for a mandatory healthcare program that many can't even afford. Please. Americans wanted AFFORDABLE healthcare, which they still aren't getting. That's why so many people are going to be opting to take the penalty. Where do you keep getting this? I have explained to you repeatedly how this program is nowhere near as expensive as you think. It is affordable health care, just like it says on the tin. Honestly, if you disliked it that much, you should have told Mitt Romney not to create it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 2, 2013 Share #40 Posted October 2, 2013 You can't possibly sit here and tell me that Americans voted for a mandatory healthcare program that many can't even afford. Please. Americans wanted AFFORDABLE healthcare, which they still aren't getting. That's why so many people are going to be opting to take the penalty. Americans voted for people who voted for it. That's the definition of how representative democracy works. If you don't like it, you are more than welcome to move to Switzerland and vote for everything in referendums. Again, they could've gone about voicing their disapproval in many ways without bringing down the federal government and employees and contractors who had nothing to do with the decision to pass Obamacare. The fact that they did it in the ugliest way possible shows that the Republicans, as a party, are unfit to govern. (Democrats have stonewalled as well, but never to the point of shutting down the government.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 2, 2013 Share #41 Posted October 2, 2013 Americans voted for people who voted for it. That's the definition of how representative democracy works. If you don't like it, you are more than welcome to move to Switzerland and vote for everything in referendums. Again, they could've gone about voicing their disapproval in many ways without bringing down the federal government and employees and contractors who had nothing to do with the decision to pass Obamacare. The fact that they did it in the ugliest way possible shows that the Republicans, as a party, are unfit to govern. (Democrats have stonewalled as well, but never to the point of shutting down the government.) I'd go one further and say that many Americans didn't know what they were voting for, esp. since there was no time given to discuss what Obamacare was. The Republicans are simply trying to stop this mini dictatorship that the Democrats have tried to create by ramming this bill through the House and Senate. That's not a failure, that's the design. 80% of people will not be changing their health care, and you're one of them. What it comes down to is providing more affordable care for those who need it. If the American people disliked Obamacare that much, they shouldn't have re-elected the preisdent. But they did not and they did, so you are in the minority here. It is not "forcing Americans" to buy plans they can't afford. You seem confused. Where do you keep getting this? I have explained to you repeatedly how this program is nowhere near as expensive as you think. It is affordable health care, just like it says on the tin. Honestly, if you disliked it that much, you should have told Mitt Romney not to create it. I'd just like you to explain to me how someone who currently doesn't have healthcare is now suddenly going to be able to afford it. I looked at the plans and I didn't see how they were any cheaper. The individual plans were about $300.00 a month before you got a voucher and you only get the voucher if you are eligible for it, so if someone didn't have coverage before because they couldn't afford it, how would they now suddenly be able to afford $300.00 if they aren't eligible for the voucher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanfortitude Posted October 3, 2013 Share #42 Posted October 3, 2013 I'd go one further and say that many Americans didn't know what they were voting for, esp. since there was no time given to discuss what Obamacare was. The Republicans are simply trying to stop this mini dictatorship that the Democrats have tried to create by ramming this bill through the House and Senate. So wait. You're tellin' me we can vote on bills that the House and Senate try to pass? When was someone gonna tell me this? I didn't know. Did you vote against ACA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 3, 2013 Share #43 Posted October 3, 2013 So wait. You're tellin' me we can vote on bills that the House and Senate try to pass? When was someone gonna tell me this? I didn't know. Did you vote against ACA? Don't be ridiculous. The point being made was that supposedly this was supposed to discussed so that Americans understood what this bill was all about. Instead it was rammed through almost in secrecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTARegional Bus Posted October 3, 2013 Share #44 Posted October 3, 2013 The thing is they didn't have to shut down the government, they can still do revision down the line to the bill while government is running. but no the GOP are acting like children just because they didn't get what they want. it over. you lose GOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted October 3, 2013 Share #45 Posted October 3, 2013 I'd hate to imagine how they would've funded the syrian air strikes that Kerry and Obama wanted so badly before Russia stepped in to prevent... if it was still going on, would they still continue or stop in the middle and pull out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted October 3, 2013 Share #46 Posted October 3, 2013 I'd hate to imagine how they would've funded the syrian air strikes that Kerry and Obama wanted so badly before Russia stepped in to prevent... if it was still going on, would they still continue or stop in the middle and pull out? The one thing both sides always seem to agree on is funding for war and violence. That's why a bill was passed to keep our soldiers paid while the government shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted October 3, 2013 Share #47 Posted October 3, 2013 We need a compromise. Some of this country's greatest moves were due to compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 3, 2013 Share #48 Posted October 3, 2013 I'd hate to imagine how they would've funded the syrian air strikes that Kerry and Obama wanted so badly before Russia stepped in to prevent... if it was still going on, would they still continue or stop in the middle and pull out? Surprisingly enough (or not), there is a long list of things that are supposedly exempt, including defense and congressional salaries. The other agencies are trying to stretch out their money for as long as possible, so things could still get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanfortitude Posted October 3, 2013 Share #49 Posted October 3, 2013 Don't be ridiculous. The point being made was that supposedly this was supposed to discussed so that Americans understood what this bill was all about. Instead it was rammed through almost in secrecy. Yeah really...except for those three years to prepare for it, that Republican representatives did everything in their power to stop it, including attempting to repeal it 41 times and the Supreme Court looked over it. That's a pretty gentle ramming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 3, 2013 Share #50 Posted October 3, 2013 Yeah really...except for those three years to prepare for it, that Republican representatives did everything in their power to stop it, including attempting to repeal it 41 times and the Supreme Court looked over it. That's a pretty gentle ramming. And after all of that, the Democrats still think this is good for Americans. It's downright shameful and undemocratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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