Government shuts down as Congress fails to prevent Funding Bill

[realizm]

That's a difficult conclusion to make. Just because we're safe and at war doesn't mean we are safe because we are at war. The same reasoning applies to the NSA and overbroad spying powers as well. Would we have suffered many more attacks had the NSA not illegally spied on citizens?

 

Good point because the Bullrun program leaves backdoor vulnerabilities defeating the whole purpose of the NSA surveillance agenda as it can leave openings for counter insurgents aka hackers working against national interests.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's a difficult conclusion to make. Just because we're safe and at war doesn't mean we are safe because we are at war. The same reasoning applies to the NSA and overbroad spying powers as well. Would we have suffered many more attacks had the NSA not illegally spied on citizens?

 

I think you misunderstood.  My point was that we have to be proactive in order to protect the chances of us not being safe.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Protectionism, however, is not the answer. Japan is the third-biggest economy in the world, has the highest paid workers in the world, and is probably the most protectionist 'rich' country. However, this only seems good on paper - when adjusted for PPP (how much they can buy with their money), they earn less than Taiwanese workers, because import tariffs are so high. Japan's conglomerates also promised lifetime benefits for all their workers during the boom years; now, the liabilities are so high (because Japanese workers are so healthy, and live a long time) that nearly all young workers are hired on a temp basis, regardless of skill level. And this is just the young people who have jobs.

 

Besides, globalization is not inherently bad. Brazil managed to change from a net importer of food to a top ten exporter in nearly everything, without subsidies. India pioneers cheap, fast medicine - they churn out lots of generics, and perform open-heart surgeries for $10,000. The problem was that the promises of the past were built on an illusion of cheap commodities and good times forever, but reality kicked in in the '70s.

Oh boy...  Protectionism is precisely the answer.  Look at China.  It's not a secret that they generally have trade imbalances in their favor with most countries that they trade with and they are heavy on protectionism.  The U.S. on the other hand worries too much about "offending" other countries because they may enact protectionist measures.  Give me a break.  Our economy is heavily consumer based and countries that don't want to do business with the U.S. are usually the ones losing out, not the other way around.  We have the most productive labor force in the world and most products made here are of quality (save maybe some cars but even that's getting a little better ), but I buy American as much as possible and have kept many American products for years.  Try doing that with the cheap imported garbage from God knows where.

 

The Japanese economy isn't suffering due to protectionism, but rather due a lack of innovation.  During the great economic years of Japan when the country soared to become the second largest economic powerhouse after the U.S. it was their innovation that made it happen.  Even now, I'm still impressed with the Japanese.  They are extremely skillful for a country with so few resources, on an island and with such a lack of space being a small country.  The Japanese also understood the importance of quality and unfortunately that is something that has eroded over the last several years, but I still buy plenty of Made in Japan products provided that there are no good Made in USA products or Western European (Made in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Greece etc.) products available.  

[realizm]

Oh boy...  Protectionism is precisely the answer.  Look at China.  It's not a secret that they generally have trade imbalances in their favor with most countries that they trade with and they are heavy on protectionism.  The U.S. on the other hand worries too much about "offending" other countries because they may enact protectionist measures.  Give me a break.  Our economy is heavily consumer based and countries that don't want to do business with the U.S. are usually the ones losing out, not the other way around.  We have the most productive labor force in the world and most products made here are of quality (save maybe some cars but even that's getting a little better ), but I buy American as much as possible and have kept many American products for years.  Try doing that with the cheap imported garbage from God knows where.

 

The Japanese economy isn't suffering due to protectionism, but rather due a lack of innovation.  During the great economic years of Japan when the country soared to become the second largest economic powerhouse after the U.S. it was their innovation that made it happen.  Even now, I'm still impressed with the Japanese.  They are extremely skillful for a country with so few resources, on an island and with such a lack of space being a small country.  The Japanese also understood the importance of quality and unfortunately that is something that has eroded over the last several years, but I still buy plenty of Made in Japan products provided that there are no good Made in USA products or Western European (Made in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Greece etc.) products available.

 

China’s fast development during the last 50 years or so was a result of its ability to master and accumulate new and more complex capabilities from commercial to militaristic, reflected in the increase in diversification and sophistication of its export basket. This was policy induced by the PRC grassroots organizations and NOT due to the state of the market trends when their agenda was set in force in the 80's.

 

Of course it has made major mistakes in its economic policy.

 

But the fact remains that you cannot deny that China has gained an advantage in the export of both labor-intensive and tech-sophisticated goods (Disclaimer: an advantage not against the US economy in its current state, crumbling as it is but apparently still on top, but nevertheless an advantage). Given the apparently sufficient policies along with the articulately planned and implemented reforms, China still may have the potential to continue thriving.

 

Obviously the high growth we are seeing here is no indication that the nation can continue this indefinitely, yes I can see that. No country can in a globalized economy, even the United States, apparently from the facts brought out on this stage of the discussion stemming from the topic. You can say the Chinese masterminds has taken a page out of the book out of the Japanese economic intellectuals and built on the technique to remain competitive against the once exclusively US dominant economy.

 

Btw keep in mind that this has been a problem of historic proportions and I still fail to see the connection you are grasping straws for in that the current presidential administration is to blame for it. I would imagine both the  Democratic and Republican parties has historically shared a common goal of US economy growth albeit with different proposals on policy for the economic stimulus growth of a modern democratic state.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

China’s fast development during the last 50 years or so was a result of its ability to master and accumulate new and more complex capabilities from commercial to militaristic, reflected in the increase in diversification and sophistication of its export basket. This was policy induced by the PRC grassroots organizations and NOT due to the state of the market trends when their agenda was set in force in the 80's.

 

Of course it has made major mistakes in its economic policy.

 

But the fact remains that you cannot deny that China has gained an advantage in the export of both labor-intensive and tech-sophisticated goods (Disclaimer: an advantage not against the US economy in its current state, crumbling as it is but apparently still on top, but nevertheless an advantage). Given the apparently sufficient policies along with the articulately planned and implemented reforms, China still may have the potential to continue thriving.

 

Obviously the high growth we are seeing here is no indication that the nation can continue this indefinitely, yes I can see that. No country can in a globalized economy, even the United States, apparently from the facts brought out on this stage of the discussion stemming from the topic. You can say the Chinese masterminds has taken a page out of the book out of the Japanese economic intellectuals and built on the technique to remain competitive against the once exclusively US dominant economy.

 

Btw keep in mind that this has been a problem of historic proportions and I still fail to see the connection you are grasping straws for in that the current presidential administration is to blame for it. I would imagine both the  Democratic and Republican parties has historically shared a common goal of US economy growth albeit with different proposals on policy for the economic stimulus growth of a modern democratic state.

Not sure what you're referring to when you say "it"...

 

As for China, I wouldn't compare their economic explosion to that of the Japanese at all.  The Chinese have been successful at providing goods and labor at lower wages (sometimes really low wages) in addition to pegging their dollar which then makes their goods even cheaper.  China is also enormous and has access to far more raw materials than the Japanese ever could. The Chinese have generally been known to imitate in terms of creating goods rather than being innovative like the Japanese.  Their growth in exports has however allowed them to have capital for tons of infrastructure projects and to invest in other areas that have allowed the country to continue to grow and establish a sizable middle class and a bigger class of wealthy Chinese as well.

[realizm]

Not sure what you're referring to when you say "it"...

 

 

 

Your pseudo-articulate way of saying that the poor is to blame for all of our economic woes in today's country as reflected in all of your posts.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your pseudo-articulate way of saying that the poor is to blame for all of our economic woes in today's country as reflected in all of your posts.

The poor isn't to blame per se but they certainly aren't helping the economy to improve.  Entitlement programs do nothing but eat up taxpayer dollars that could be used for more important things.  We need good paying jobs and more taxpayer dollars coming in, not more money going out of the door.

[Tokkemon]

So do we just let the poor die in the street?

 

There's more important things in the world than money you know. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So do we just let the poor die in the street?

 

There's more important things in the world than money you know. 

I find it interesting that the middle class is looked over while everyone worries about the poor.  

[Tokkemon]

The Middle Class (whatever that means) aren't dying in the streets, I think its darned right to worry about the latter first.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The Middle Class (whatever that means) aren't dying in the streets, I think its darned right to worry about the latter first.

The middle class is the one suffering the most, paying the highest amount of taxes and getting the least in return considering what they contribute.  I saw a man in East Harlem today as I was passing through on the express bus.  It's downright disgusting how those people live and how they come outside presenting themselves. They have no sort of self-pride whatsoever.  

[Tokkemon]

What if this East Harlem man was unable to feed himself? Or was stuck under the insidious yoke of alcoholism or drug addiction? What do you expect to do? For some its the government. Personally, I wish the rich (or even not so rich) would care for them through charity, through churches and such, because they tend to do it more effectively than the government ever can. Why don't you want to help your fellow man, no matter how dingy he looks? Where is your heart in this matter? That's what I mean when I say not everything is about money. But then again, it is, because if they had money, they wouldn't be in the predicament they're in. Oh well. The best we can do (read: should do) is to help them, wherever we can. And if that means they can get heathcare when they otherwise couldn't, then by all means, fund Obamacare!

[MHV9218]

I saw a man in East Harlem today as I was passing through on the express bus.  It's downright disgusting how those people live and how they come outside presenting themselves. They have no sort of self-pride whatsoever.  

 

What in the hell...

[Tokkemon]

For once, I agree with you MHV.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Smh... Those.people don't want help. They want everlasting handouts... Way to be independent...

[Turbo19]

Smh... Those.people don't want help. They want everlasting handouts... Way to be independent...

Who the f**k are "those people"? Come out and f**king say it how you see it!

 

You f**king coward, pinche cobarde.

[Trainmaster5]

I've always been considered part of the so-called "middle class" so let me say this nicely. There used to be a saying that the difference between the middle class and being poor was 1 paycheck. In other words if you lost your job (and paycheck) for a week you were now back to being poor. You were now considered part of the "working poor". As I said earlier I've never seen the poor, "or working poor", held in such contempt by some people. I've seen posters in this thread who span all sides of the political spectrum argue the merits of the government shutdown but almost all have not scapegoated the poor. I've paid Federal and state taxes for 50 years. Most of the time I was single, with no dependents, so I was taxed at the highest rate. My taxes went toward schools, police ,fire, sanitation, mass transit,public libraries, hospitals, infrastructure, and whatever the governments thought was needed. I have no children (that I know of) but I paid anyway. I damn sure didn't cry about it. The way I was brought up that's called "giving back". I didn't complain because my family had another saying about looking down at another human being. Something about the grace of God. It's good to see that there are still young people who don't hold those who are not as fortunate in contempt.

[DJ MC]

Smh... Those.people don't want help. They want everlasting handouts... Way to be independent...

 

You know it takes a lot to push me out of all people over the edge, so I'm going to keep myself in check this time. Now if you have something to say about who "those" people are, then say it. Speak your mind. Be careful what you say though, playing with fire will burn you. 

[Turbo19]

You know it takes a lot to push me out of all people over the edge, so I'm going to keep myself in check this time. Now if you have something to say about who "those" people are, then say it. Speak your mind. Be careful what you say though, playing with fire will burn you. 

I'm telling you, I tried to stay out of the discussion to avoid just this, but no, it goes there anyway.

 

Going in full throttle, no regrets.

 

 

 

And yes, that's what the f**k she said.

 

 

[realizm]

Who the f**k are "those people"? Come out and f**king say it how you see it!

 

You f**king coward, pinche cobarde.

 

Yes I would like to know too for the record. That's a supurb question for him to answer for us at this point of this talk we are having.

 

I've always been considered part of the so-called "middle class" so let me say this nicely. There used to be a saying that the difference between the middle class and being poor was 1 paycheck. In other words if you lost your job (and paycheck) for a week you were now back to being poor. You were now considered part of the "working poor". As I said earlier I've never seen the poor, "or working poor", held in such contempt by some people. I've seen posters in this thread who span all sides of the political spectrum argue the merits of the government shutdown but almost all have not scapegoated the poor. I've paid Federal and state taxes for 50 years. Most of the time I was single, with no dependents, so I was taxed at the highest rate. My taxes went toward schools, police ,fire, sanitation, mass transit,public libraries, hospitals, infrastructure, and whatever the governments thought was needed. I have no children (that I know of) but I paid anyway. I damn sure didn't cry about it. The way I was brought up that's called "giving back". I didn't complain because my family had another saying about looking down at another human being. Something about the grace of God. It's good to see that there are still young people who don't hold those who are not as fortunate in contempt.

 

Amen. Guess you can throw me in as a middle class citizen who will say that I'm also very happy to hear that many of my peers do not harbor this resentment towards the poor.

 

In response as to why some posters hold persons of the working poor class in contempt in class warfare debates on the internet today: A select few of those who are not in the position of the poor, they tend to have this real fear of hitting rockbottom themselves. Psychologically therefore they tend to project that fear as resentment and anger towards those who are impoverished. Another reason too is because simply because of insubordinate socioeconomic or racial pride or hatred really. That's what I picked up on with many discussions on plenty of different platforms of internet social mediums where it comes to ethical issues such as this.

 

Which is sad because there are many of those of the upper middle class who do indeed have a heart towards the unfortunate, donating their time and energies to samaritan causes. But it's some of these select few with these attitudes that's what gets to me. Making the situation complicated and uncomfortable for many who wants nothing to do with such biased thinking.

[bobtehpanda]

Oh boy...  Protectionism is precisely the answer.  Look at China.  It's not a secret that they generally have trade imbalances in their favor with most countries that they trade with and they are heavy on protectionism.  The U.S. on the other hand worries too much about "offending" other countries because they may enact protectionist measures.  Give me a break.  Our economy is heavily consumer based and countries that don't want to do business with the U.S. are usually the ones losing out, not the other way around.  We have the most productive labor force in the world and most products made here are of quality (save maybe some cars but even that's getting a little better ), but I buy American as much as possible and have kept many American products for years.  Try doing that with the cheap imported garbage from God knows where.

 

The Japanese economy isn't suffering due to protectionism, but rather due a lack of innovation.  During the great economic years of Japan when the country soared to become the second largest economic powerhouse after the U.S. it was their innovation that made it happen.  Even now, I'm still impressed with the Japanese.  They are extremely skillful for a country with so few resources, on an island and with such a lack of space being a small country.  The Japanese also understood the importance of quality and unfortunately that is something that has eroded over the last several years, but I still buy plenty of Made in Japan products provided that there are no good Made in USA products or Western European (Made in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Greece etc.) products available.  

 

Oh, please. China has major trade imbalances with all countries, but not all of them are positive. The country sinks a lot of money into commodities - the rise of China (and to a lesser extent, India) has boosted the economies of Latin America and Africa. Australia has been riding an economic boom for the last 30 years due to commodities, and it's only ending due to the slowdown in China. China's ridiculous economic growth also comes from the fact they started from a very low base - Mao killed tens of millions and ran the economy into the ground. In comparison, 1920's China was very growth-oriented (business wise) - Shanghai was a center of international commerce, trade, and investment.

 

Again, Japanese workers make the most money in the world, but with cost of living factored in, they make less than Taiwanese workers. Import tariffs are really high, which doesn't help when you don't have many natural resources or farmland. Tokyo consistently hits first or second place in the 'most expensive cities' list, and Osaka usually hits top ten. Japanese companies have become too cozy in their protected shell, which is why the government is now pursuing economic reforms, pushing GDP to 4% growth over the same quarter last year.

 

Innovation and protectionism go hand in hand - without competition, companies have no reason to innovate. That's why telecoms and automakers were very slow to innovate mid-century, and why telecoms continues to be slow to innovate.

 

Not sure what you're referring to when you say "it"...

 

As for China, I wouldn't compare their economic explosion to that of the Japanese at all.  The Chinese have been successful at providing goods and labor at lower wages (sometimes really low wages) in addition to pegging their dollar which then makes their goods even cheaper.  China is also enormous and has access to far more raw materials than the Japanese ever could. The Chinese have generally been known to imitate in terms of creating goods rather than being innovative like the Japanese.  Their growth in exports has however allowed them to have capital for tons of infrastructure projects and to invest in other areas that have allowed the country to continue to grow and establish a sizable middle class and a bigger class of wealthy Chinese as well.

 

Every East Asian company has imitated. Sony and Samsung did it, and Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia have done it. Let's not act like China's doing something that only it has done before.

 

Their growth in exports doesn't mean crap. The main reason they have capital for investing is because capital cannot leave the country. Investment by Chinese citizens outside of the country is basically banned; only rich citizens manage to launder money through casinos in Macau and banks in Hong Kong and London. Most citizens must save heavily, and earn meager returns due to a lack of competition in the banking industry. State owned banks can then lend these captive deposits to whoever the hell they want to, which usually means state-owned enterprises or the government.

 

This kind of development model should not be replicated in a country such as ours, and is unsustainable in the long run - hence China's moves towards rebalancing their economy towards consumption and economic reforms. It is not China's fault that what they want to buy comes from Germany and France, and not America.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Who the f**k are "those people"? Come out and f**king say it how you see it!

 

You f**king coward, pinche cobarde.

 

 

You know it takes a lot to push me out of all people over the edge, so I'm going to keep myself in check this time. Now if you have something to say about who "those" people are, then say it. Speak your mind. Be careful what you say though, playing with fire will burn you. 

LOL... Who else would I be talking about but those getting handouts that are perfectly capable of providing for themselves.  It doesn't necessarily mean poor people either, but those who manipulate and use the system unnecessarily.  There's a big difference between actual NEED and taking from the system because you can.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Oh, please. China has major trade imbalances with all countries, but not all of them are positive. The country sinks a lot of money into commodities - the rise of China (and to a lesser extent, India) has boosted the economies of Latin America and Africa. Australia has been riding an economic boom for the last 30 years due to commodities, and it's only ending due to the slowdown in China. China's ridiculous economic growth also comes from the fact they started from a very low base - Mao killed tens of millions and ran the economy into the ground. In comparison, 1920's China was very growth-oriented (business wise) - Shanghai was a center of international commerce, trade, and investment.

 

Again, Japanese workers make the most money in the world, but with cost of living factored in, they make less than Taiwanese workers. Import tariffs are really high, which doesn't help when you don't have many natural resources or farmland. Tokyo consistently hits first or second place in the 'most expensive cities' list, and Osaka usually hits top ten. Japanese companies have become too cozy in their protected shell, which is why the government is now pursuing economic reforms, pushing GDP to 4% growth over the same quarter last year.

 

Innovation and protectionism go hand in hand - without competition, companies have no reason to innovate. That's why telecoms and automakers were very slow to innovate mid-century, and why telecoms continues to be slow to innovate.

 

 

Every East Asian company has imitated. Sony and Samsung did it, and Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia have done it. Let's not act like China's doing something that only it has done before.

 

Their growth in exports doesn't mean crap. The main reason they have capital for investing is because capital cannot leave the country. Investment by Chinese citizens outside of the country is basically banned; only rich citizens manage to launder money through casinos in Macau and banks in Hong Kong and London. Most citizens must save heavily, and earn meager returns due to a lack of competition in the banking industry. State owned banks can then lend these captive deposits to whoever the hell they want to, which usually means state-owned enterprises or the government.

 

This kind of development model should not be replicated in a country such as ours, and is unsustainable in the long run - hence China's moves towards rebalancing their economy towards consumption and economic reforms. It is not China's fault that what they want to buy comes from Germany and France, and not America.

lol... The Chinese are known for being the biggest imitators around bar none.  Yes, the Japanese and Koreans also imitated at some point but Korean companies like Samsung have certainly been innovative.  The same can be said of LG, another Korean company.  Japanese companies like SONY, Fujitsu have been on the decline of late mainly due to a lack of innovation and understanding consumer wants.

 

LOL@ last sentence... Listen, the Europeans buy American products like crazy so if you're trying to say something about the quality of American products overall, I'd say you're wrong.  Now the quality standards in Europe are a bit higher than here in the US but I still have plenty of good quality American products that last just as long as my products from Italy, Germany, Spain & Portugal.  

[bobtehpanda]

lol... The Chinese are known for being the biggest imitators around bar none. Yes, the Japanese and Koreans also imitated at some point but Korean companies like Samsung have certainly been innovative. The same can be said of LG, another Korean company. Japanese companies like SONY, Fujitsu have been on the decline of late mainly due to a lack of innovation and understanding consumer wants.

 

LOL@ last sentence... Listen, the Europeans buy American products like crazy so if you're trying to say something about the quality of American products overall, I'd say you're wrong. Now the quality standards in Europe are a bit higher than here in the US but I still have plenty of good quality American products that last just as long as my products from Italy, Germany, Spain & Portugal.

 

China's consumers are an extremely superficial bunch who are hyper obsessed with luxury brands. Most of those are German, French, Swiss, British, Italian, etc, and made in their home country. American companies do brisk business in the country (H&M, Walmart, Ford, Apple, etc.), but mostly sell things mad in China. It makes absolutely no financial sense to produce high volumes of low value goods in America and ship it to China. The only reasonable things we could export to China are foodstuffs (because Chinese consumers don't trust domestically produced food) and financial services (but ordinary Chinese can't move money in and out of the country).

 

China also fakes a lot more because it is the biggest country on the planet. Korea has 50 million people. Japan has 120 million. China has 1.2 BILLION people. At this stage in its development cycle, it's normal for developing economies to copy goods, but Chinese companies are innovsting themselves - Lenovo makes very good PCs and laptops, and Huawei makes the most cost-efficient telecoms infrastructure on the market today. Keep in mind that American industry was started by an engineer who copied the plans for British textile mill equipment, so it's not like we have the right to talk about industries built off of fakes.

[Turbo19]

LOL... Who else would I be talking about but those getting handouts that are perfectly capable of providing for themselves.  It doesn't necessarily mean poor people either, but those who manipulate and use the system unnecessarily.  There's a big difference between actual NEED and taking from the system because you can.  

Alright, let's just say that you weren't insinuating anything prejudice and borderline racist to begin with.

 

To my understanding you are still criticizing those receiving public assistance by essentially equating them to manipulators collecting under false pretenses, unless I'm viewing your reply in a flawed demeanor. I'd say that's still a general statement that is baseless, unless you have evidence other than just your perception.

 

Awaiting a reply.