Metro-North passenger train derails in NYC

[nostalgia]

I may be mistaken, I had thought that the cab signal system in use also included speed restrictions. Metro North uses a cab signal system with automatic train stop. One other comment why can't MetroNorth go into Penn Station on the West Side line.

The cab signal system is tied to signals. You're thinking of ACSES, which enforces speed restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Civil_Speed_Enforcement_System

 

I guess MN doesn't go into Penn except for maybe there isn't any room.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Here's the latest for Monday

 

Following this morning’s derailment of a Hudson Line train in the Bronx, MTA Metro-North Railroad will continue to provide bus service from the Tarrytown Station to the White Plains Station on the Harlem Line until 2 a.m. Monday.

 

Beginning at 5 a.m. Monday, MTA Bus will provide a bus shuttle between the Yonkers Station and the 242nd Street terminus of the Broadway 1 Subway Line Icon local subway, until further notice.

 

New York City Subways will operate two additional 1 Subway Line Icon local trains per hour during the peak periods.

 

Hudson Line will continue to be cross-honored on the subway.

 

Many of the 26,000 people who use the Hudson Line on an average weekday are encouraged to ride the Harlem Line as an alternative.

 

People who do not have to travel are urged to telecommute. People should expect crowded trains.

 

In cooperation with Westchester and Putnam counties and local municipalities, special parking is being arranged to accommodate additional drivers at the Southeast Station at the northern terminus of the Harlem line and at Kensico Dam, which is in walking distance to the Valhalla station. Riders should consult mta.info for additional information on the continuing repair effort and service restoration.

 

Metro-North Customer Service representatives will be on hand to assist customers in making the transfers.

 

Cranes and other special heavy equipment are being positioned to remove the rail cars from the area so that repairs can begin. The equipment will arrive this evening begin work following clearance from the NTSB and work will continue through the night.

 

The accident occurred just before 7:30 a.m. on Sunday, a southbound, Hudson Line train with about 120 passengers on board derailed just north of the Spuyten Duyvil station in the Bronx. All cars derailed.

 

The National Transportation Safety Board sent a team of investigators who arrived on Sunday and immediately began documenting the scene. Metro-North is cooperating fully with that investigation. With NTSB approval, Metro-North workers will begin clearing the cars, using cranes and heavy equipment.

 

Customers are advised to check the website for the latest service updates

Expect the 100+ bus convoy from across the 5 boroughs tomorrow, will be interesting to see all the crap that gets sent up there (and for the 2nd time in a few months too).

[46Dover]

I only heard about this when I was on the thruway when I saw Metro North train service suspended on the message board, I was doing work for Adirondack Trailways for New York-Albany round trips. They were using every bus company and their mother for this service

 

It has not been a good travel day today. About the same time this happened, the South Tube of the Lincoln Tunnel was closed due to a 3 car pileup inside as I was driving the bus to Port Authority, traffic was diverted to the Center Tube

[Missabassie]

It has not been a good travel day today. About the same time this happened, the South Tube of the Lincoln Tunnel was closed due to a 3 car pileup inside as I was driving the bus to Port Authority, traffic was diverted to the Center Tube

It's always around a holiday when weird stuff starts happening.

 

[Transitfan007]

This is going to major talk when I get in tomorrow.  MNR tracks are old along with NYCT and LIRR.  Major rehab coming soon.  Three major incidents in less than a year.

[theaveragejoe]

The locomotive engineer, according to news reports, said the brakes did not apply. Until the NTSB reviews the data recorder I would not want to say. Looking at the photos and from the what was reported the lead car may have rolled 360°.

I may be mistaken, I had thought that the cab signal system in use also included speed restrictions. Metro North uses a cab signal system with automatic train stop. A brake failure would explain much. The train was on its first run of the day. Also it had made several stops from Poughkeepsie to Tarrytown before going express.

One other comment why can't MetroNorth go into Penn Station on the West Side line.

 

Thx IGN

 

 

The 3rd rail into Penn Station is not compatable with Metro North equipment for the P32AC-DM's. Also there is no 3rd rail on the West Side line for MNCR EMU's to run on anyways.

[Burrstone]

Should he be at fault. Just be cause speed may have been a factor as reported doesn't mean the issue wasn't mechanical in nature.

 

 

The sad part is if this were a bus driver he'd be in jail awaiting arraignment after being released from the hospital...

 

I'm sure the crew will be drug tested.

 

Isn't this a DOT requirement when deaths are involved?

 

I have no idea how train braking systems work, some questions for those are familiar with this..  What would cause such a massive brake failure in short period of time?  There are no warning systems indicating such a massive problem?  Are there any procedures to make sure the brakes are working before such a big turn?  You may notice before toll booths on major highways there are signs asking truckers to check their brakes, so if there is a failure they can stop their truck before they run into a toll booth, perhaps this should become common practice in the RR industry with everything we have seen lately?  Check the brakes before a turn to prevent a tragedy like this?  Are MNRR trains equipped with any sort of a deadman device to prevent something like this if the operator falls asleep or has a medical emergency?

 

I'm not blaming the driver but I'm not hanging everything on this guy's statement, because if someone knows they caused such a tragedy by falling asleep or not paying attention I'm sure their first excuse would be "it wasn't my fault, the brakes failed..."

[nostalgia]

The sad part is if this were a bus driver he'd be in jail awaiting arraignment after being released from the hospital...

 

 

Isn't this a DOT requirement when deaths are involved?

 

I have no idea how train braking systems work, some questions for those are familiar with this..  What would cause such a massive brake failure in short period of time?  There are no warning systems indicating such a massive problem?  Are there any procedures to make sure the brakes are working before such a big turn?  You may notice before toll booths on major highways there are signs asking truckers to check their brakes, so if there is a failure they can stop their truck before they run into a toll booth, perhaps this should become common practice in the RR industry with everything we have seen lately?  Check the brakes before a turn to prevent a tragedy like this?  Are MNRR trains equipped with any sort of a deadman device to prevent something like this if the operator falls asleep or has a medical emergency?

 

I'm not blaming the driver but I'm not hanging everything on this guy's statement, because if someone knows they caused such a tragedy by falling asleep or not paying attention I'm sure their first excuse would be "it wasn't my fault, the brakes failed..."

MetroNorth has an alerter system. If the engineer fails to take action (press the acknowledge button, apply brakes or reduce throttle) when the alerter goes off within a specified time period, the alerter will cause the train to dump the air.

 

There are duplex air gauges that indicate the air pressure in the main reservoir and the brakes in the cars.

[aemoreira81]

The black boxes have been recovered from the train. However, as the cars are being uprighted, more bodies may be found. One of the conductors on the train is among the dead as the 5th fatality.

[narig]

AverageJoe.

What I was thinking of is the diesel hauled trains from Poughkeepsie could go down to Penn Station. The FL-9's were set up to use either overrunning or underrunning 3rd rail. I was not sure about MetroNorth's P-32's. The 3rd rail at Penn runs up thru the connector. It is overrunning if I remember.

Rgds IGN

[YankeesPwnMets]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-63-injured-nyc-metro-north-train-derailment/story?id=21060842

 

Unconfirmed reports of brake malfunction... that would be interesting considering I don't see how the brakes could randomly fail almost 1.5 hours into the run....

[j express]

Why they cant send the shuttle buses to the ? So Hudson Line riders have direct access to Grand Central. I remember they send the MNR shuttle buses to Woodlawn one weekend during the frieght train derailment.

[lirr42]

AverageJoe.

What I was thinking of is the diesel hauled trains from Poughkeepsie could go down to Penn Station. The FL-9's were set up to use either overrunning or underrunning 3rd rail. I was not sure about MetroNorth's P-32's. The 3rd rail at Penn runs up thru the connector. It is overrunning if I remember.

Rgds IGN

 

The third rail out of Penn Station ends just outside the tunnels on the Empire Connection.  The vast majority of it is unelectrified.

However, as the cars are being uprighted, more bodies may be found. One of the conductors on the train is among the dead as the 5th fatality.

 

Are you sure about that?  I'm sure if one of the crew members had been unaccounted for we would have certainly heard of that sooner than just now.

 

Do you have a source, by chance?

Why they cant send the shuttle buses to the ? So Hudson Line riders have direct access to Grand Central. I remember they send the MNR shuttle buses to Woodlawn one weekend during the frieght train derailment.

 

It's a longer ride in from Woodlawn, if I'm not mistaken.  Also, going to Woodlawn might tempt riders to jump on Harlem Line trains into GCT there, which will already be plenty full from people driving over to the Harlem.  Sending them to the segregates them.

[Truckie]

I'm sure the crew will be drug tested.

I can guarantee the crew was drug tested.

[TeeLow]

The engineer said he applied the brake but it didn't engage. I also learned he was "pushing" his load instead of "pulling" it. Is there a significant difference in braking when the engine is in front or behind?

[narig]

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal the engineer had 20 years experience.

 

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303670804579231830633455674

 

Someone with that would know about speed.

 

Rgds IGN

 

 

Teelow no difference in braking ability. With railroad airbrakes they respond to changes in air pressure in the line. The main difference is in an accident the heavier locomotive has more ability to push bigger things out of the way. And provides for better crew protection.

Last comment I am not sure if MetroNorth's locomotives have dynamic braking. It would have been the margin in this if the train had suffered an air brake system failure. Dynamic brakes turn the traction motors (the electric motors in a diesel electric locomotive) into generators to provide braking.

 

Rgds IGN

[narig]

YankeepawMets.

Things that happen with air brakes.

1.Ice. Unlikely. If the airdryer (it removes water vapor from the air system) failed and then a build up of moisture happens in the system it can freeze in the airlines. Looking at the weather reports the temps Sunday morning were above freezing during the run.

 

2. Inexperienced operator. Unlikely as the engineer had 20 years experience. What can happen is repeated use of the brakes can bleed off the air and you will not have enough pressure left in the system to apply. This is why constant monitoring of the brake line air pressure is done.

 

3.Some other mechanical failure. I do not know enough about the systems to comment on this.

 

The thing that has caught my attention is that the train in question was scheduled to made multiple stops between Poughkeepsie and Tarrytown before going express.

 

Last thought and bear in mind this is speculation, fatigue. The NTSB will do a background investigation. 5am departure and traveling in the early hours of the morning on a very cold morning. The cab heat may have been on full blast. If your not well rested one of the recipes for nodding off.

 

Rgds IGN

YankeesPwnMets

Sorry about the misspelled name. I'm on a tablet and can't fix.

 

Rgds IGN

[PinePower]

I have to say it's dissapointing, shocking, and saddening that this accident is most likely a result of the cutting corners with safety. It really explains why in 2011 when our Nassau County buses needed to be inspected by the DOT prior to Veolia taking over operations in 2012, that many buses failed to pass the state inspection. There needs to be a thorough review and investigation done, and possibly criminal charges against those who knew about the safety violations that led to this tragic accident. A train is supposed to be able to stop or slow down, and it appears that this train was going way too fast for this stretch of track, and a good chance that the brakes did not respond. I can only imagine how horrible the engineer felt, knowing he could do nothing to control the train. 

[Truckie]

Engineer said he pressed the brakes, but it didn't work!!!!!!!!!!http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-bound-metro-north-passenger-train-derails-bronx-article-1.1533963

 

I read and re read that article and it was not written the the engineer "pressed" the brakes.  This is exactly how rumors start from less then credible sources.  You don't press on the brakes, period.

 

I may be mistaken, I had thought that the cab signal system in use also included speed restrictions. Metro North uses a cab signal system with automatic train stop.

 

The cab signal system is only designed to give a condition of the block(s) ahead.  If the cab signal indicated a "normal cab" then that means there is nothing that will restrict the speed based on track occupancy.  This system will not give a cab signal a downgrade due to a speed restriction.

 

One of the conductors on the train is among the dead as the 5th fatality.

 

Please don't comment on rumors (or make up rumors).  All the crew members were accounted for and were not part of the fatalities.

[TeeLow]

Teelow no difference in braking ability. With railroad airbrakes they respond to changes in air pressure in the line. The main difference is in an accident the heavier locomotive has more ability to push bigger things out of the way. And provides for better crew protection.

Last comment I am not sure if MetroNorth's locomotives have dynamic braking. It would have been the margin in this if the train had suffered an air brake system failure. Dynamic brakes turn the traction motors (the electric motors in a diesel electric locomotive) into generators to provide braking.

 

Rgds IGN

Thanks narig

[Burrstone]

I'll wait until the NTSB has made their findings in what happened (whether it was human error or equipment failure) until I pass judgement.  Whether it was human error (the conductor) or because of shoddy maintenance those responsible should be held fully responsible.  

 

 

I have to say it's dissapointing, shocking, and saddening that this accident is most likely a result of the cutting corners with safety. It really explains why in 2011 when our Nassau County buses needed to be inspected by the DOT prior to Veolia taking over operations in 2012, that many buses failed to pass the state inspection. There needs to be a thorough review and investigation done, and possibly criminal charges against those who knew about the safety violations that led to this tragic accident. 

 

That's a great point and I forgot about so many LIB buses failing the DOT inspection before Veolia took over...  I have said over and over since then how alarming that is, I originally hoped it would make people get who use other systems get alarmed and wonder if the equipment they ride on is safe!  That many buses failing a basic safety check!?!  In addition to the community being concerned/outraged I hoped it would spark the state to investigate the the equipment passengers ride on, and the 's maintenance.  

 

To think if this tragedy was a result of shoddy maintenance all of these deaths and incidents could have been prevented if the state inspected other properties after so many buses they were maintaining failed the DOT inspection prior to Veolia taking over...

[realizm]

As of this morning according to the press, the 11 who are in critical condition are appearing to be heading towards making a full recovery. No more bodies were found. So it stands at 4 persons who died from the accident but the rest are taken of the critical list as per Mayor Bloomberg. The victim's names has been released by the MTA. The name of the engineer has also been released.

 

Andrew Cuomo has formally stated that the tracks 'did not appear to be faulty' according to CBS News. Investigation is ongoing, it may take up to ten days with MNRR service possibly restored by the end of the week.

 
I'm also reading that the NTSB has been ordering railroads to install PTC technology which can mitigate the incidences of major accidents caused by a variety of factors. The US Congress passed a railroad reform act into law in 2008 which mandated commuter and freight railroads to install the system by the end of 2015.

 

The MTA has just finalized contracts with Bombardier and Siemens for PTC upgrades on the MNRR and LIRR, at a cost of $86 million and growing to perhaps $210 million dollars with the MNRR alone, back in November of this year.

 

[QM1to6Ave]

I read and re read that article and it was not written the the engineer "pressed" the brakes.  This is exactly how rumors start from less then credible sources.  You don't press on the brakes, period.

 

 

The cab signal system is only designed to give a condition of the block(s) ahead.  If the cab signal indicated a "normal cab" then that means there is nothing that will restrict the speed based on track occupancy.  This system will not give a cab signal a downgrade due to a speed restriction.

 

 

This is a quote from the 1010wins article on the story. Is this correct, and was this system in place at the curve where the accident happened?

 

Metro-North is in the process of installing the technology [in reference to PTC]. It now has what’s called an “automatic train control” signal system, which automatically applies the brakes if an engineer fails to respond to an alert that indicates excessive speed.

[realizm]

That was what I figured in terms of the benefits of PTC technology.

 

I wanted to point out as far as the point of human error generally being discussed that the engineer involved is a fifteen year veteran with the MNRR. So the possibility of human error may be low and perhaps even unlikely in this case. He may not be kidding, the brakes probably did fail.

 

I'm sure there is a high level of internal strife within the MTA right now as we speak, that we may not be aware of. The public benefits corporation will obviously cover their asses at the executive committee level and try to paint a different picture. (While behind the scenes scheming to throw MNRR personnel involved under the bus, until the NTSB investigation is complete.) 

 

Now a second black box has been found at the site, making for two data recorders.

[rosskin92]

Question, are MN trains equipped with systems to stop the train (throw it into emergency) if its going too fast for a period of time? Not sure how much of a difference it would have made, but here Metra trains have that system. Audiable warning of overspeed, then automatic braking after being over speed too long. Happened to me on the BNSF line one day, very quick stop for a trainSent from my iPhone 5c using TapatalkEdit- seems like MN is in the process of installig the equipment?

I'm sure there is a high level of internal strife within the MTA right now as we speak, that we may not be aware of. The public benefits corporation will obviously cover their asses at the executive committee level and try to paint a different picture. (While behind the scenes scheming to throw MNRR personnel involved under the bus, until the NTSB investigation is complete.) Now a second black box has been found at the site, making for two data recorders.

This. I believe this 100%. and it isnt only the MTA... I would say most transit agencies in the USA are operating like this right now. I know the RTA/CTA/METRA are. We had Metras CEO ousted because he wouldnt take an appointee that was backed by Someone influential in Springfield. Or so i believeSent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk