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Bronx Division Bus Proposals/Ideas


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43 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

5th Avenue is neither east NOR west, as 5th is in the middle. The :bus_bullet_bxm2: naturally will have less ridership than the :bus_bullet_bxm1: because of the (1) serving the West Side. The closest subway providing service to the East Side from Riverdale is the (4) at Mosholu Parkway, a rather long and annoying bus ride away. Having the :bus_bullet_bxm2: helps keep the (MTA) from having to add even more :bus_bullet_bxm1: service. The earlier express buses certainly have riders that go all the way down to 34th street. The issue is that congestion has eroded ridership from the :bus_bullet_bxm2: in the mornings so that it depends more and more on the doctors and other staff from Mount Sinai as it is quick from Riverdale (20 minutes or so). The congestion in Midtown is where it has been seeing issues. People either have been switching to Metro-North and walking from Grand Central or taking the :bus_bullet_bxm18:, which stops further south on 5th from 56th down and then walking west. 

The :bus_bullet_bxm1: would be overcrowded, not to mention the additional meandering that would be needed. Northbound the :bus_bullet_bxm1: can be very quick to Riverdale. Having it have to make its way over to Madison would make no sense, especially the ones that have to run through Inwood.

 

(1) Fifth is immediately east of Central Park, and Madison is east of Fifth. By definition, that makes it the East Side.

(2) Maybe the Fast Forward project will reveal whether multiple Riverdale services are needed.

(3) Having the BxM1 "meander" and "make its way" from 3rd Avenue to Madison "would make no sense" but having the BxM2 "meander" through the West Side and travel a much longer distance through Central Park somehow does make sense?

(4) As I recall, there was a study during the late 1980s of whether the BxM2 should stay on the West Side and use the Henry Hudson Parkway instead of the Deegan. Northbound, it would have used Broadway to Amsterdam to 79th to the Henry Hudson. Southbound would have used the Henry Hudson to 79th to Columbus to Broadway. (Apparently, the buses in use at the time would have fit on the parkway, but one guy objected because buses on a parkway would have dishonored the memory of Robert Moses.)

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6 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

(1) Fifth is immediately east of Central Park, and Madison is east of Fifth. By definition, that makes it the East Side.

(2) Maybe the Fast Forward project will reveal whether multiple Riverdale services are needed.

(3) Having the BxM1 "meander" and "make its way" from 3rd Avenue to Madison "would make no sense" but having the BxM2 "meander" through the West Side and travel a much longer distance through Central Park somehow does make sense?

(4) As I recall, there was a study during the late 1980s of whether the BxM2 should stay on the West Side and use the Henry Hudson Parkway instead of the Deegan. Northbound, it would have used Broadway to Amsterdam to 79th to the Henry Hudson. Southbound would have used the Henry Hudson to 79th to Columbus to Broadway. (Apparently, the buses in use at the time would have fit on the parkway, but one guy objected because buses on a parkway would have dishonored the memory of Robert Moses.)

Let's put this to rest already because the BxM2 runs the way it does for a reason and it is successful.

(1) The BxM2 used to run further on the West Side before swinging over for the Mount Sinai stop, which it has always made. It didn't pick up any ridership. The (MTA) decided to have it serve more of the Upper East Side versus the Upper West Side after 72nd. Why? It provides access to Central Park West and West 81st, which sees ridership and also gives people subway access that may need it. I use that stop a lot when either coming from points south or north of it as do other people for the subway, or when I'm on the Upper West Side, I'll walk over to that stop. Then there is the stop that serves the area by the museums. It is a popular one. Lots of people work in that area or go shopping right around Madison and 5th. Rather than walk all the way to 3rd Avenue AND have to make stops in Inwood which many Riverdalians do not like, the BxM2 gives riders other options. The demographics of Riverdale consists of lots of former Manhattanites who frequent the Upper East and Upper West Side of Manhattan and I know because I speak with people who confirm this at the bus stops. In fact that was one of the reasons I moved to Riverdale because I spend a lot of time on the Upper East and Upper West Side and love having direct express bus service to and from Riverdale.

(2) The role of the BxM1 is to provide service along the Lex and 3rd Avenue corridor and for the far East Side. There are those who work by the hospitals along York that can either walk or take the crosstown to meet the BxM1. In short the BxM1 is already a work horse due to Riverdale not having an East Side subway. The BxM2 swinging over to the Upper East Side from the West Side provides relief and an alternative when there is an issue. 96th and Lex is already a big stop as it connects to the subway. You'd need another BxM1 if you were going to have to it serve Mount Sinai too which can be done by the BxM2. The BxM2 does just fine overall. On weekends it is definitely popular all the way down to 34th Street for Central Park, the museums all along 5th and shopping along the Upper West Side, Lincoln Center etc. 

(3) The other thing is many of us alternate between the BxM1 and BxM2, as we are in between both. If you concentrated one bus on 5th and Madison you would likely lose ridership. The way service is now makes the most sense. The BxM2 at night does just fine and gets lots of ridership from 34th on up. Address the congestion and all the Riverdale routes would be just fine. Both the BxM1 and BxM2 make about 8 stops in Manhattan and are about the same in travel time, especially when the BxM1 is serving Inwood and not skipping it.

People have asked why Riverdale has such service. It has everything to do with the demographics. With so many former Manhattanites mainly people from the Upper West or Upper East Side, ridership will always be concentrated there and in Midtown. These are usually people that want more space with the same amenities they had in Manhattan, so doorman service, indoor parking etc. They get all of that and have an express bus that takes them to their former neighborhoods where many still either work or do shopping regularly or still have family that they visit. Riverdale is a bedroom community that many Manhattanites like because it is very close to Manhattan but affordable compared to Manhattan, so people go to and from the areas mentioned a lot and often times daily. There's a middle aged lady I run into on the weekends. She has been a fixture in the BxM2 for years. On Sundays she always uses the stop at 94th and 5th for church or some other gathering. I am almost certain that she is a former Manhattanite that lived or lives in that area, perhaps with a residence in Riverdale and on the Upper East Side.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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HERE IS A MAJOR EXPRESS BUS PROPOSAL FOR YONKERS ROUTES BXM1, BXM2, BXM3, AND BXM4

BxM1/2: They are truncated to 246th St and exclusively serve South Riverdale where most of their ridership comes from.

BxM3: Sedgwick Ave service is cut out, and goes straight to Broadway, then Mosholu Ave, 254th St, and Riverdale Ave all the way to Getty Sq.

BxM4: Redirected from the Concourse to the Deegan, then serves Sedgwick Ave, gets back on the Deegan at Van Cortlandt and shoots up to Woodlawn. Use the (B)(D) for the Concourse.

 

These will be the following stops for each bus.

BxM1/2

HH Pkwy/246th St
HH Pkwy/239th St
HH Pkwy/235(6)th St
HH Pkwy/232nd St
HH Pkwy/227th St
Kappock St/Knolls Crescent
Kappock St/Johnson Ave
Johnson Ave/Irwin Ave
230th St/Tibbett Ave
230th St/Bway

 

BxM3

Getty Square
Riverdale Ave/Vark St
Riverdale Ave/Ludlow St
Riverdale Ave/Valentine Ln
Riverdale Ave/261st St
Riverdale Ave/259th St
Riverdale Ave/256th St
Riverdale Ave/254th St
Mosholu Ave/Fieldston Rd
Bway/Mosholu Ave
Bway/254th St
Bway/Lakeview Pl
Bway/251st St
Bway/246th St

 

BxM4

Katonah Ave/242nd St
Katonah Ave/237th St
Katonah Ave/234th St
233rd St/Kepler Ave
233rd St/Oneida Ave
233rd St/Napier Ave
Van Cortlandt Park S/Bailey Ave
Sedgwick Ave/Van Cortlandt Ave W
Sedgwick Ave/Giles Pl
Sedgwick Ave/Ft Independence St
Sedgwick Ave/197th St
Sedgwick Ave/Kingsbridge Rd
Sedgwick Ave/Bailey Ave
Sedgwick Ave/Webb Ave

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1 hour ago, 78 via Stew Leonards said:

HERE IS A MAJOR EXPRESS BUS PROPOSAL FOR YONKERS ROUTES BXM1, BXM2, BXM3, AND BXM4

BxM1/2: They are truncated to 246th St and exclusively serve South Riverdale where most of their ridership comes from.

BxM3: Sedgwick Ave service is cut out, and goes straight to Broadway, then Mosholu Ave, 254th St, and Riverdale Ave all the way to Getty Sq.

BxM4: Redirected from the Concourse to the Deegan, then serves Sedgwick Ave, gets back on the Deegan at Van Cortlandt and shoots up to Woodlawn. Use the (B)(D) for the Concourse.

 

These will be the following stops for each bus.

BxM1/2

HH Pkwy/246th St
HH Pkwy/239th St
HH Pkwy/235(6)th St
HH Pkwy/232nd St
HH Pkwy/227th St
Kappock St/Knolls Crescent
Kappock St/Johnson Ave
Johnson Ave/Irwin Ave
230th St/Tibbett Ave
230th St/Bway

 

BxM3

Getty Square
Riverdale Ave/Vark St
Riverdale Ave/Ludlow St
Riverdale Ave/Valentine Ln
Riverdale Ave/261st St
Riverdale Ave/259th St
Riverdale Ave/256th St
Riverdale Ave/254th St
Mosholu Ave/Fieldston Rd
Bway/Mosholu Ave
Bway/254th St
Bway/Lakeview Pl
Bway/251st St
Bway/246th St

 

BxM4

Katonah Ave/242nd St
Katonah Ave/237th St
Katonah Ave/234th St
233rd St/Kepler Ave
233rd St/Oneida Ave
233rd St/Napier Ave
Van Cortlandt Park S/Bailey Ave
Sedgwick Ave/Van Cortlandt Ave W
Sedgwick Ave/Giles Pl
Sedgwick Ave/Ft Independence St
Sedgwick Ave/197th St
Sedgwick Ave/Kingsbridge Rd
Sedgwick Ave/Bailey Ave
Sedgwick Ave/Webb Ave

I agree that most of the ridership is from 239th down for the BxM1, 2 and 18, but there is some ridership from North Riverdale. I also don't get the point of having the BxM3 skip the parts of Broadway above 254th...

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19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I agree that most of the ridership is from 239th down for the BxM1, 2 and 18, but there is some ridership from North Riverdale. I also don't get the point of having the BxM3 skip the parts of Broadway above 254th...

It'd be a quicker and more efficient ride for North Riverdale riders on the new revised BxM3 which may attract more ridership from up there. Not many riders use Broadway north of Mosholu Ave to begin with (especially in Yonkers).  Same with the new Woodlawn-Sedgwick Ave BxM4

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20 minutes ago, 78 via Stew Leonards said:

It'd be a quicker and more efficient ride for North Riverdale riders on the new revised BxM3 which may attract more ridership from up there. Not many riders use Broadway north of Mosholu Ave to begin with (especially in Yonkers).  Same with the new Woodlawn-Sedgwick Ave BxM4

To me, this is more or less a distribution of riders from one bus to the other. While the BxM4 would have more ridership, the BxM3 would have less ridership. I still think people in Riverdale will opt for the BxM1 and BxM2 over the BxM3. The catchment area in Riverdale is much more narrow on the BxM3, and you can only do so much over there. It doesn't help that the BxM1 & 2 are also more frequent. You're not getting more ridership from Yonkers, that's for sure. 

 

I'm indifferent about the loss of stops on Grand Concourse, since it's very little. 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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2 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

To me, this is more or less a distribution of riders from one bus to the other. While the BxM4 would have more ridership, the BxM3 would have less ridership. I still think people in Riverdale will opt for the BxM1 and BxM2 over the BxM3. The catchment area in Riverdale is much more narrow on the BxM3, and you can only do so much. You're not getting more ridership from Yonkers, that's for sure. 

There isnt much ridership on the BxM3 from Yonkers to begin with.

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7 minutes ago, 78 via Stew Leonards said:

There isnt much ridership on the BxM3 from Yonkers to begin with.

Which leads to the point I'm making. The BxM3 really doesn't generate much ridership for the distance it covers, and taking away one base (Sedgwick Avenue), and leaving only the other (Riverdale) will make it much more vulnerable to cuts. You're having BxM4 buses take on the Sedgwick Avenue riders in order to strengthen BxM4 ridership, but at the same time, the BxM3 is going to have depend on Riverdale for its ridership, which is not as much you think.

Something should be done to the BxM4, but not at the expense of the BxM3.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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37 minutes ago, 78 via Stew Leonards said:

It'd be a quicker and more efficient ride for North Riverdale riders on the new revised BxM3 which may attract more ridership from up there. Not many riders use Broadway north of Mosholu Ave to begin with (especially in Yonkers).  Same with the new Woodlawn-Sedgwick Ave BxM4

Looks like you're under the impression that the Sedgwick portion of the BxM3 is stunting potential usage in Riverdale.... Don't buy that at all.

Making the BxM3 a North Riverdale/Yonkers bus makes it too easy for the MTA to kill a shitload of trips on the route; akin to BxM18 level service... No thanks... That's not worth transferring the Sedgwick portion to the BxM4 for more riders for that route....

Edited by B35 via Church
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8 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Something should be done to the BxM4, but not at the expense of the BxM3.

Something has gotta get the BxM4 off the concourse, and have it EXPRESS up to the North Bronx somehow. Maybe extend it further north into Yonkers itself.

I think the BxM3 would get some North Riverdale ridership on Riverdale Ave with my proposed revision.... What's your take(s)?

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5 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I'm indifferent about the loss of stops on Grand Concourse, since it's very little. 

I'm not sure how you're indifferent when most of the ridership comes from there. 161st and 165th are the two big stops. After that there's some ridership up in Bedford Park and then Norwood. The issue the frequencies stink and some people want to use it but they kept changing the run times so they gave up. The route needs to be extended into Yonkers since you have more of those people coming down to Woodlawn for the express bus.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not sure how you're indifferent when most of the ridership comes from there. 161st and 165th are the two big stops. After that there's some ridership up in Bedford Park and then Norwood. The issue the frequencies stink and some people want to use it but they kept changing the run times so they gave up. The route needs to be extended into Yonkers since you have more of those people coming down to Woodlawn for the express bus.

Do you terminate the 4 at Getty Square with the BxM3 or elsewhere in Yonkers? Perhaps Central & Yonkers Avenue. (Thruway service Road) 

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7 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Do you terminate the 4 at Getty Square with the BxM3 or elsewhere in Yonkers? Perhaps Central & Yonkers Avenue. (Thruway service Road) 

I would terminate it right inside the Cross County Shopping Mall. I had a kid that I tutored up there for almost two years. Both parents worked with New York-Presbyterian/Weill Cornell. The father would drive me down to the BxM4 after my session, and he was always intrigued because he didn't know about the bus and considered it, but he worked too far east (over along York Avenue with Weill Cornell) to make it worthwhile.  There's a lot of dual income folks in that area that would probably use it, if they knew about it.  From Katonah and 242nd, it's basically a 10 minute trip if you continue up Kimball Avenue.  

You could steal riders from that Fleetwood stop for sure.  $6.50 versus $11.00 peak or $13.00 versus $22.00 round trip is a no brainer.  That would also perhaps allow them to restore some of those Super Express trips that would only serve Woodlawn and then get on the Deegan.  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Interesting.... Let's make every trip on the BxM3 more of an Sx at the expense of the BxM4 - when it was the very Woodlawn patrons that lost their Sx trips ....

Anyway, yeah, I would just leave the BxM4 on the Concourse.... It's slow developing, but usage is growing...

I'm not sure where the ridership comes from on the BxM3 Super Express trips, but I have used them in the morning when I needed a Metrocard at 242nd.  I am ALWAYS the only one that boards at 246th.  I think there's only been once in all of the years that I've boarded there that someone else got on with me. lol  Anywho, the trips have generally been pretty crowded, but I was still able to get two seats to myself.  I'm guessing a mix of North Riverdale folks for sure and maybe some from Yonkers just based off the demographics.  Mainly whites more than anything.

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8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would terminate it right inside the Cross County Shopping Mall. I had a kid that I tutored up there for almost two years. Both parents worked with New York-Presbyterian/Weill Cornell. The father would drive me down to the BxM4 after my session, and he was always intrigued because he didn't know about the bus and considered it, but he worked too far east (over along York Avenue with Weill Cornell) to make it worthwhile.  There's a lot of dual income folks in that area that would probably use it, if they knew about it.  From Katonah and 242nd, it's basically a 10 minute trip if you continue up Kimball Avenue.  

You could steal riders from that Fleetwood stop for sure.  $6.50 versus $11.00 peak or $13.00 versus $22.00 round trip is a no brainer.  That would also perhaps allow them to restore some of those Super Express trips that would only serve Woodlawn and then get on the Deegan.  

I agree. I didn’t think to mention Cross County plus the deadhead to Yonkers Depot isn’t far at all. Definitely take from the fleetwood stop for sure. 

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1 minute ago, Future ENY OP said:

I agree. I didn’t think to mention Cross County plus the deadhead to Yonkers Depot isn’t far at all. Definitely take from the fleetwood stop for sure. 

I say that as someone who would take the BxM4 and then be picked up.  The parents didn't care. They would pick me up from the Fleetwood Station too, but I hated paying $11.00 for that ride when I had an express bus pass that cost me nothing.  The session paid $45.00, but after deducting for that stupid ticket, I'm really only getting $34.00.

 

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27 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Do you terminate the 4 at Getty Square with the BxM3 or elsewhere in Yonkers? Perhaps Central & Yonkers Avenue. (Thruway service Road) 

Getty Sq?? Nah, there's virtually no use for the BxM3 there, let alone another express route..

21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would terminate it right inside the Cross County Shopping Mall. I had a kid that I tutored up there for almost two years. Both parents worked with New York-Presbyterian/Weill Cornell. The father would drive me down to the BxM4 after my session, and he was always intrigued because he didn't know about the bus and considered it, but he worked too far east (over along York Avenue with Weill Cornell) to make it worthwhile.  There's a lot of dual income folks in that area that would probably use it, if they knew about it.  From Katonah and 242nd, it's basically a 10 minute trip if you continue up Kimball Avenue.  

You could steal riders from that Fleetwood stop for sure.  $6.50 versus $11.00 peak or $13.00 versus $22.00 round trip is a no brainer.  That would also perhaps allow them to restore some of those Super Express trips that would only serve Woodlawn and then get on the Deegan.  

11 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I agree. I didn’t think to mention Cross County plus the deadhead to Yonkers Depot isn’t far at all. Definitely take from the fleetwood stop for sure. 

I'd be inclined to agree - However Westchester county would cry foul (Lol), since Central Park av. is also BxM4c territory (not to mention that our expresses are actually cheaper than the 4c)....

 

Edited by B35 via Church
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1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

I'd be inclined to agree - However Westchester county would cry foul (Lol), since Central Park av. is also BxM4c territory (not to mention that our expresses are actually cheaper than the 4c)....

 

 

I've never seen it up there though.  Does the 4c run near the Cross County Shopping area?

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4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've never seen it up there though.  Does the 4c run near the Cross County Shopping area?

They cut a shit ton of service ever since they increased the fare to $7.50..... They also scaled service back to 23rd (used to run to Wall st)....

Along Central park av, believe it or not, The BxM4c runs all the way up to rt. 119 (White Plains)

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5 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

They cut a shit ton of service ever since they increased the fare to $7.50..... They also scaled service back to 23rd (used to run to Wall st)....

Along Central park av, believe it or not, The BxM4c runs all the way up to rt. 119 (White Plains)

This is something that the (MTA) needs to tap in. I’d want that dog fight with Westchester. But is that something the (MTA) wants?  Sheesh, have them steal parts of the Hudson branch of MNRR with some good marketing of Super Expresses from Yonkers, Bronxville, White Plains to Manhattan. 

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21 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

 

I'd be inclined to agree - However Westchester county would cry foul (Lol), since Central Park av. is also BxM4c territory (not to mention that our expresses are actually cheaper than the 4c)....

 

IMO. I don’t think we will ever have any good (MTA) regional transportation while Liberty Bus- Westchester, TOR Rockland, Dutchess County Transit and Orange County are all in business.  Some (MTA) bus service could solve the problems up north.   

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On August 29, 2018 at 11:59 AM, B35 via Church said:

Getty Sq?? Nah, there's virtually no use for the BxM3 there, let alone another express route..

I'd be inclined to agree - However Westchester county would cry foul (Lol), since Central Park av. is also BxM4c territory (not to mention that our expresses are actually cheaper than the 4c)....

 

Considering just how much service the BxM4C used to have, and how up to now (nearly a decade later) nothing lost has been restored, I'd say it's all the more reason for MTA to consider extending the BxM4 up to CCSC (maybe even have a stop at the casino too to really taunt Liberty Lines).

You can only imagine there were probably a fair few people who were willing to shell out a little more for a one-seat ride between Empire City Casino & Manhattan (especially those half-fare payers) before the BxM4C's big reductions happened. Nowadays, the W20/21 line is overwhelmed with casino customers coming off the (4) train. That plus the ongoing Bainbridge Avenue detour causing probably the worst sort of delays the W20/21 has ever been burdened with? Forget it, no such thing as a schedule now. Bringing back some sort of scope of express bus service to this part of Westchester would most likely alleviate a lot of this overcrowding/delay.

If Bee-Line wouldn't want MTA extending the BxM4 into Southern Westchester, then they better hustle & bring back the *real* BxM4C. Not keep this shadow of it's former self. 

Edited by Axis
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44 minutes ago, Axis said:

Considering just how much service the BxM4C used to have, and how up to now (nearly a decade later) nothing lost has been restored, I'd say it's all the more reason for MTA to consider extending the BxM4 up to CCSC (maybe even have a stop at the casino too to really taunt Liberty Lines).

You can only imagine there were probably a fair few people who were willing to shell out a little more for a one-seat ride between Empire City Casino & Manhattan (especially those half-fare payers) before the BxM4C's big reductions happened. Nowadays, the W20/21 line is overwhelmed with casino customers coming off the (4) train. That plus the ongoing Bainbridge Avenue detour causing probably the worst sort of delays the W20/21 has ever been burdened with? Forget it, no such thing as a schedule now. Bringing back some sort of scope of express bus service to this part of Westchester would most likely alleviate a lot of this overcrowding/delay.

If Bee-Line wouldn't want MTA extending the BxM4 into Southern Westchester, then they better hustle & bring back the *real* BxM4C. Not keep this shadow of it's former self. 

Again, that's if the (MTA) wants to really have a dog fight with Westchester and Liberty lines. My thing is that (MTA) has MNRR services out in Westchester. Why not have the BxM4 extend to CCSC, get customers from Bronxville, Fleetwood Stations, Casino/Raceway. Hit down the thruway into Manhattan.  All for $6.50.

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45 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Again, that's if the (MTA) wants to really have a dog fight with Westchester and Liberty lines. My thing is that (MTA) has MNRR services out in Westchester. Why not have the BxM4 extend to CCSC, get customers from Bronxville, Fleetwood Stations, Casino/Raceway. Hit down the thruway into Manhattan.  All for $6.50.

 

There is no need for NYC residents to (further) subsidize the suburbs.

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