Triboro (RX) News?

[BrooklynIRT]

Are there plans to create this Triboro (RX) at some point within the next 20 years? Or are the Triboro (RX) plans on the back burner indefinitely like so many other subway expansion plans?

[Jsunflyguy]

Likely not to happen within 50 years.

At current there isn't even a plan to finish the SAS below 63rd street. Converting ROWs cutting through NIMBY-villes, and building a river crossing to the Bronx are at this point not even a realistic hypothetical under ideal conditions.

[Turbo19]

Are there plans to create this Triboro (RX) at some point within the next 20 years? Or are the Triboro (RX) plans on the back burner indefinitely like so many other subway expansion plans?

In reference to Quinn's Proposed RX BRT or the other proposed X line which is a true subway?

 

If Quinn's proposal that is dead indefinitely and with good reason, but if you are talking about the subway (which it appears you are) it does require a lot of work.

 

Nevertheless I believe it can become reality with some perseverance on everyone's part..

[cl94]

While it looks simple to add the RX along the Bay Ridge Branch, the FRA makes it harder than it appears. Any added subway tracks would have to be completely separate from the LIRR tracks. Only reason PATH and SIR get away with this is because they are technically railways, using FRA certified locomotive engineers, and have tons of grandfather waivers, which the FRA is not going to grant to the for a subway line. The ROW south of where it meets the at Metropolitan Avenue is (mostly) wide enough for 4 tracks (of which 1-2 currently exist), so conversion would require less effort, but north of there the ROW to up to and including the CSX Fremont Secondary (NY Connecting RR) is two tracks with much freight traffic. The Hell Gate has room for 4 tracks, but 3 currently exist (2 Amtrak, 1 CSX). A new ROW would have to be constructed north of Fresh Pond Yard through dense residential neighborhoods, in addition to a new river crossing (or some serious modifications to Hell Gate). We're talking about something much more expensive than the / Second Avenue Line or East Side Access.

 

They'd finish SAS down to Hanover Square and up into the Bronx long before the RX would even get a formal study. Will it happen at some point in the future? Maybe. SAS is finally being built after 80 years. Heck, if I were the , I'd think about building the IND Second System and/or extending current lines long before building anything else (including a triboro line). An extension to the Nassau County line, the to JFK, a line to LGA, and a extension or new Utica Avenue line to serve Marine Park may be more useful (and less expensive)

[qjtransitmaster]

Well to bypass the FRA issues they can extend the SIR via rail barge a.k.a car float to carry the trains across the river to bay ridge then continue via triboro line till money for a tunnel can be found.

OR

Or upgrade NH new cannan service then extend them to fresh pond road via hell's gate. And extend some LIRR trains to go to bay ridge via the rest of the way. But that requires both railroads to significantly upgrade service. But with special fare arrangements to avoid deterrence of ridership. Battery storage EMUs however can make this method easier to implement.

 

In short not likely anytime soon as long as the FRA exists.

[Roadcruiser1]

There are no upcoming plans with the Triboro RX so far, and there won't be for a long time.......

[Turbo19]

Well to bypass the FRA issues they can extend the SIR via rail barge a.k.a car float to carry the trains across the river to bay ridge then continue via triboro line till money for a tunnel can be found.

OR

Or upgrade NH new cannan service then extend them to fresh pond road via hell's gate. And extend some LIRR trains to go to bay ridge via the rest of the way. But that requires both railroads to significantly upgrade service. But with special fare arrangements to avoid deterrence of ridership. Battery storage EMUs however can make this method easier to implement.

 

In short not likely anytime soon as long as the FRA exists.

Far fetched? Perhaps.

 

Progressive? Yes. +1

[Vistausss]

There's no seperation needed b/w subway and railroad tracks, according to our valuable sources bobtehpanda, lirr42 and Trainmaster5.

 

Also, SIR is FRA for the freight operations and PATH is FRA too because it's still connected to FRA tracks in NJ.

 

Just to clear up some confusion.

Or upgrade NH new cannan service then extend them to fresh pond road via hell's gate.

 

How are you gonna fit them on Hells Gate? It s not like theres plenty of room atm and adding additional tracks, even though possible, would likely be too heavy for the bridge as RR trains are heavier than trolleys that used to run there and the bridge is not made for heavy trains in the first place. Furthermore, there's little to no room in GC on the MNRR tracks and Amtrak's part is unelectrified.

[Dj Hammers]

How are you gonna fit them on Hells Gate? It s not like theres plenty of room atm and adding additional tracks, even though possible, would likely be too heavy for the bridge as RR trains are heavier than trolleys that used to run there and the bridge is not made for heavy trains in the first place. Furthermore, there's little to no room in GC on the MNRR tracks and Amtrak's part is unelectrified.

Trolleys have never ran on the hell gate bridge. From the beginning the Hell Gate was a bridge for heavy rail, and it used to carry a lot more traffic, both passenger and freight, than it does today.

[realizm]

Are there plans to create this Triboro (RX) at some point within the next 20 years? Or are the Triboro (RX) plans on the back burner indefinitely like so many other subway expansion plans?

 

Its not going to happen at all, its a dead proposal. The reason is because Governor Andrew Cuomo has recently announced that he will financially back with state dollars a new Metro North Railroad Penn Station Access project that may use much of the existing Amtrak ROW  up to and including the Hells Gate Bridge. The MTA is dedicated to building this new MNRR line so that effectively eliminates any prospects of the NYC Transit's Triboro RX project ever becoming a reality.

 

Link: http://www.wnyc.org/story/gov-cuomo-supports-new-metro-north-train-line-through-east-bronx/

 

Link: http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/pdf/MorrisPark_September2012.pdf

 

[Vistausss]

Trolleys have never ran on the hell gate bridge. From the beginning the Hell Gate was a bridge for heavy rail, and it used to carry a lot more traffic, both passenger and freight, than it does today.

 

You re right. But still, theres no room for 5 tracks on the bridge (4 is the max) and Amtrak uses the bridge very frequently and CSX is not gonna give up their single freight track which they have to use during daytime so NH New Canaan over Hell Gate is not gonna happen. Plus Amtrak owns the bridge so even if a fourth track were to be added, they still need to coincide with Amtrak.

[realizm]

You re right. But still, theres no room for 5 tracks on the bridge (4 is the max) and Amtrak uses the bridge very frequently and CSX is not gonna give up their single freight track which they have to use during daytime so NH New Canaan over Hell Gate is not gonna happen. Plus Amtrak owns the bridge so even if a fourth track were to be added, they still need to coincide with Amtrak.

Thats the problem with the MNRR Penn Station access project now, which will replace the previous NYC Transit Triboro RX proposal. Aquisition rights, the tracks will have to be shared with Amtrak as well as infrastructure related compatibility issues. On top of that issues with sharing slots in Penn Station with the LIRR because of possible opposition from LI local political leaders. Which was why Governer Cuomo stepped in to push the pending MTA project and serve as mediator between the MTA and Amtrak by means of political support for the MTA from Albany in case Amtrak has any issues.

[bobtehpanda]

Well to bypass the FRA issues they can extend the SIR via rail barge a.k.a car float to carry the trains across the river to bay ridge then continue via triboro line till money for a tunnel can be found.

OR

Or upgrade NH new cannan service then extend them to fresh pond road via hell's gate. And extend some LIRR trains to go to bay ridge via the rest of the way. But that requires both railroads to significantly upgrade service. But with special fare arrangements to avoid deterrence of ridership. Battery storage EMUs however can make this method easier to implement.

 

In short not likely anytime soon as long as the FRA exists.

 

A rail barge would be slow and wouldn't solve any FRA issues...

 

Honestly, there is nothing solid that says "MTA crews can't operate FRA compliant cars." Even if compliance was a major issue, you could probably gut a M7 and redo the seating, maybe add some doors, and voila, FRA compliant car.

 

Its not going to happen at all, its a dead proposal. The reason is because Governor Andrew Cuomo has recently announced that he will financially back with state dollars a new Metro North Railroad Penn Station Access project that may use much of the existing Amtrak ROW  up to and including the Hells Gate Bridge. The MTA is dedicated to building this new MNRR line so that effectively eliminates any prospects of the NYC Transit's Triboro RX project ever becoming a reality.

 

Link: http://www.wnyc.org/story/gov-cuomo-supports-new-metro-north-train-line-through-east-bronx/

 

Link: http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/pdf/MorrisPark_September2012.pdf

 

I mean, it only limits the possibilities of extending the line to the Bronx; a Sunset Park-Brooklyn College-East New York-Jackson Heights line would still be fairly useful.

[BrooklynIRT]

What about the issues with the freight trains that use much of the ROW in Brooklyn and Queens?

[cl94]

I mean, it only limits the possibilities of extending the line to the Bronx; a Sunset Park-Brooklyn College-East New York-Jackson Heights line would still be fairly useful.

 

Actually, this might be more useful than an extension to the Bronx. With the current ROW, there are already transfers with the (from south to north) , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and [almost] . North of Fresh Pond Yard, ROW only exists for 2 tracks and no fewer than 1 exists at all locations, but the ROW doesn't need much expansion south of Jackson Heights to provide a connection to the in Jackson Heights. Biggest problem is the area right around Metropolitan. Heck, they could even use it to extend the , a la the Circle Line in London. If they really wanted to, it could be tied into a rail link to LGA. North of Jackson Heights, it could run on a viaduct above the BQE (kind of like Airtrain JFK) over to LGA. Two projects combined into one. Underserved areas of Brooklyn and Queens would be served and a line would reach LaGuardia. How many people from Queens go to the Bronx? Enough to warrant another rail connection after Second Avenue?

[realizm]

I mean, it only limits the possibilities of extending the line to the Bronx; a Sunset Park-Brooklyn College-East New York-Jackson Heights line would still be fairly useful.

 

Well all I was pointing out is the fact that that the focus of the MTA has changed. We may see the Second Ave Subway extended to the Bronx (according to current plans for phase 2, 3 and 4) before a version of the originally proposed crosstown line is built as proposed here. 

 

Once upon a time we were supposed to have an extension of the to LGA but that got slammed because of the NIMBYs. That may be a concern here as well with any future proposals with a watered down version of the original Triboro RX plan.

 

Personally speaking I see the NYC Transit's Triboro RX line as having much more potential for benefiting this city then a half baked MNRR option with no Queens stops. But it is what it is.

[bobtehpanda]

Well all I was pointing out is the fact that that the focus of the MTA has changed. We may see the Second Ave Subway extended to the Bronx (according to current plans for phase 2, 3 and 4) before a version of the originally proposed crosstown line is built as proposed here. 

 

Once upon a time we were supposed to have an extension of the to LGA but that got slammed because of the NIMBYs. That may be a concern here as well with any future proposals with a watered down version of the original Triboro RX plan.

 

Personally speaking I see the NYC Transit's Triboro RX line as having much more potential for benefiting this city then a half baked MNRR option with no Queens stops. But it is what it is.

I mean this might just be me, but I'm of the opinion that the Bronx connection involved in the Triboro RX is probably the least useful part; for all intents and purposes, the Q44 would still be faster for many people than going all the way into Jackson Heights, then taking the RX all the way back.

[qjtransitmaster]

Its not going to happen at all, its a dead proposal. The reason is because Governor Andrew Cuomo has recently announced that he will financially back with state dollars a new Metro North Railroad Penn Station Access project that may use much of the existing Amtrak ROW  up to and including the Hells Gate Bridge. The MTA is dedicated to building this new MNRR line so that effectively eliminates any prospects of the NYC Transit's Triboro RX project ever becoming a reality.

 

Link: http://www.wnyc.org/story/gov-cuomo-supports-new-metro-north-train-line-through-east-bronx/

 

Link: http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/pdf/MorrisPark_September2012.pdf

 

 

won't that allow MNRR to run through service via Penn station to serve the triboro line? Merged with others. I do admit the segment south of Jackson heights is more useful.

A rail barge would be slow and wouldn't solve any FRA issues...

 

Honestly, there is nothing solid that says "MTA crews can't operate FRA compliant cars." Even if compliance was a major issue, you could probably gut a M7 and redo the seating, maybe add some doors, and voila, FRA compliant car.

 

I mean, it only limits the possibilities of extending the line to the Bronx; a Sunset Park-Brooklyn College-East New York-Jackson Heights line would still be fairly useful.

Thanks for clearing that up. However do fast rail barges exist? I admit you have a habit of stealing my thunder.

[realizm]

In response to both posts, absolutely the southern segment of the Triboro RX will meet the most urgent passenger demands, not denying that. But the issue here is the political will to see to it the new crosstown line in part at all. In itself we have at least another 20-25 years before the SAS is completed, all phases. And no FEIS studies has been done on the Triboro RX (only an independent study) However the original FEIS from 2004 for the SAS is being updated to reflect the Bronx extension for the as the MTA prepares to seek for funding to build phase 2 then the rest in continuum to Hanover Square, without delay.

 

I'm simply trying to see where the MTA is with this. But let me not detract from the proposals being made here that was not my intent. Simply answering the OPs question as to the MTAs plan for the Triboro RX at this point.

[cl94]

In response to both posts, absolutely the southern segment of the Triboro RX will meet the most urgent passenger demands, not denying that. But the issue here is the political will to see to it the new crosstown line in part at all.

 

I'm surprised that more politicians haven't jumped on the RX bandwagon. It's an area that isn't served and the clear ROW exists for much of it, complete with a few stations. If I lived along the Bay Ridge Branch, I'd be writing my local, state, and federal politicians to get the ball rolling by creating a preliminary EIS. We're talking track, signals, and a couple of stations. Most of it south of Fresh Pond could be completed within a couple of years at a cost that pales in comparison to that of the SAS. No, it isn't a particularly flashy project, but it's a densely-populated area with no subway service.

[realizm]

I'm surprised that more politicians haven't jumped on the RX bandwagon. It's an area that isn't served and the clear ROW exists for much of it, complete with a few stations. If I lived along the Bay Ridge Branch, I'd be writing my local, state, and federal politicians to get the ball rolling by creating a preliminary EIS. We're talking track, signals, and a couple of stations. Most of it south of Fresh Pond could be completed within a couple of years at a cost that pales in comparison to that of the SAS. No, it isn't a particularly flashy project, but it's a densely-populated area with no subway service.

Thats the thing. We dont have the type of leadership that is dedicated to transit as it should coming out of Albany, who is more interested in addressing cross state regional transit needs then inner city transit needs. The Triboro RX plan therefore died when Jay Walder stepped down as MTA Chairman. The State Of New York wasnt willing to fund it. Even as the issue was brought back up during the 2013 mayoral election, no one was truely interested in focusing on the Triboro RX idea as a rapid transit answer to a growing problem, instead focusing on +SBS+ alternatives that was impractical and not possible to implement from the NYDOT end even if they tried.

 

The MTA in its recent 20 year assessment needs release mentioned the fact that job sectors will grow in the outer boroughs and made it clear, but the city politicians cannot see that, or refuse to. Thats what contributed to the killing of the Triboro RX plan. Now its too late as Cuomo hit the final nail in the coffin with the MNRR Penn Station Access backing to appease Congressmen out of state I imagine. However with the next governor or even mayor we may see a change. As much as I like Mayor DeBlasio on unrelated policy change to your benefit, he has a long way to go in properly addressing rapid transit needs. +SBS+ cannot match a subway line and he may need to come to terms with that with his past proposals as a runner up for mayor in 2013.

 

Point: Political bullshit at its finest killed the Triboro RX project.

[Vistausss]

won't that allow MNRR to run through service via Penn station to serve the triboro line? Merged with others. I do admit the segment south of Jackson heights is more useful.

Thanks for clearing that up. However do fast rail barges exist? I admit you have a habit of stealing my thunder.

 

If you pay for the costs to expand Penn Station, then sure, through service will happen.

 

Also: fast rail barges probably exist. Problem is: just like faster ferries, they cost $$$ And by that I mean a serious amount of $$$ Not worth it in this case.

[bobtehpanda]

won't that allow MNRR to run through service via Penn station to serve the triboro line? Merged with others. I do admit the segment south of Jackson heights is more useful.

Thanks for clearing that up. However do fast rail barges exist? I admit you have a habit of stealing my thunder.

 

You just can't use rail barges in a mass transit application. Mass transit requires headways better than fifteen or ten minutes, and boats take a very long time to dock, particularly rail barges that need to line up the rails perfectly.

If you pay for the costs to expand Penn Station, then sure, through service will happen.

 

Also: fast rail barges probably exist. Problem is: just like faster ferries, they cost $$$ And by that I mean a serious amount of $$$ Not worth it in this case.

 

Through service doesn't need more tracks; in fact, it increases capacity, since many trains from the west turn within Penn Station (as opposed to the LIRR from the east, which generally turns trains in West Side Yard)

[cl94]

A rail barge? Where are we? 1890? The only real option would be a tunnel under the East River and a bridge (or another tunnel) to the Bronx. And if Amtrak actually builds the Penn Station Annex and its 7 tracks, Penn would have more than enough capacity for MNRR. Shift all the limited-stop trains there (and bring the trains in closer to departure). Some of the Penn Station issues wouldn't exist if Amtrak didn't bring its trains in 30-45 minutes early. It doesn't take that long to load 400 people on a train. Heck, if they were smart (which we know they aren't), MNRR work something out with NJ Transit so trains could run from the New Haven Line into Jersey for some of the shorter electric runs with little net increase in station traffic.

[bobtehpanda]

What about the issues with the freight trains that use much of the ROW in Brooklyn and Queens?

 

The freight trains are honestly not that frequent; a few trains daily is not going to make or break this project.

 

However, if a Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel were to be built, then track-sharing would not be feasible at all (as opposed to just using FRA-compliant cars on freight tracks, which isn't even that big of a deal considering that the FRA is moving to make internationally-compliant trains legal to operate)