Triboro (RX) News?

[BrooklynIRT]

How badly do they want to build a Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel? [Do they want that more than they, or some other "they," want to create a Triboro (RX)?]

[cl94]

The freight trains are honestly not that frequent; a few trains daily is not going to make or break this project.

 

However, if a Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel were to be built, then track-sharing would not be feasible at all (as opposed to just using FRA-compliant cars on freight tracks, which isn't even that big of a deal considering that the FRA is moving to make internationally-compliant trains legal to operate)

 

Track sharing need not be done because the ROW exists for 4 tracks. Track sharing between two high-use 24/7 freight and transit lines isn't done anywhere in this country because the FRA doesn't like it. Remember-SIR and PATH don't currently share tracks with active freight/passenger service outside their system. Newark Light Rail and River Line do share tracks with freight operations, but the FRA prohibits both from operating on the shared sections at the same time. The RX would run 24/7 at service intervals much greater than either of these light rail systems. Yes, they could use FRA-compliant cars that would be (most likely) landlocked, requiring the construction of new maintenance facilities and a new, dedicated fleet, but that would severely limit redundancy. If they just used modified M7s, for example, they might have enough clearance to get to CI via the Sea Beach if they built a connection in the cut, but they'd never make it to ENY, Canarsie, or anything at that end of the line. It would be cheaper to build 2 new tracks and use standard subway rolling stock with the general pool of T/Os and C/Rs than have dedicated everything to comply with FRA regs.

[bobtehpanda]

Track sharing need not be done because the ROW exists for 4 tracks. Track sharing between two high-use 24/7 freight and transit lines isn't done anywhere in this country because the FRA doesn't like it. Remember-SIR and PATH don't currently share tracks with active freight/passenger service outside their system. Newark Light Rail and River Line do share tracks with freight operations, but the FRA prohibits both from operating on the shared sections at the same time. The RX would run 24/7 at service intervals much greater than either of these light rail systems. Yes, they could use FRA-compliant cars that would be (most likely) landlocked, requiring the construction of new maintenance facilities and a new, dedicated fleet, but that would severely limit redundancy. If they just used modified M7s, for example, they might have enough clearance to get to CI via the Sea Beach if they built a connection in the cut, but they'd never make it to ENY, Canarsie, or anything at that end of the line. It would be cheaper to build 2 new tracks and use standard subway rolling stock with the general pool of T/Os and C/Rs than have dedicated everything to comply with FRA regs.

 

Is freight really so busy on the Bay Ridge Branch that time-sharing is not possible at all? In any case, to my knowledge no one has ever advocated the RX actually having track connections to other subway lines (I think the end of the line would be 59th St or 62nd/New Utrecht ; connecting to Coney is not actually that useful.) You'd need to build a new yard anyways, simply because the existing ones are full as it is and the RX is long.

[bobtehpanda]

How badly do they want to build a Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel? [Do they want that more than they, or some other "they," want to create a Triboro (RX)?]

 

The idea behind the Cross Harbor Freight tunnel is that it would significantly reduce truck traffic into the city, and more specifically within Manhattan and the outer ring neighborhoods, because as of right now freight from the west must go something like 90 miles north and then come back down to the city. The idea is that if a cross-harbor freight tunnel exists, you can just have trains drop off cargo at Maspeth and then offload onto smaller trucks that can zip right onto the BQE and distribute through the highway system. Currently, the New York metro area is actually an anomaly in that it has ridiculously high passenger rail usage compared to the rest of the nation, but also ridiculously low freight rail usage compared to the rest of the nation.

 

Both are equally dead in the water, and none are going to happen until all current funding commitments are exhausted (which is to say don't expect anything prior to 2020)

[BrooklynIRT]

The idea behind the Cross Harbor Freight tunnel is that it would significantly reduce truck traffic into the city, and more specifically within Manhattan and the outer ring neighborhoods, because as of right now freight from the west must go something like 90 miles north and then come back down to the city. The idea is that if a cross-harbor freight tunnel exists, you can just have trains drop off cargo at Maspeth and then offload onto smaller trucks that can zip right onto the BQE and distribute through the highway system. Currently, the New York metro area is actually an anomaly in that it has ridiculously high passenger rail usage compared to the rest of the nation, but also ridiculously low freight rail usage compared to the rest of the nation.

Interesting, especially the bold part.

[cl94]

Is freight really so busy on the Bay Ridge Branch that time-sharing is not possible at all? In any case, to my knowledge no one has ever advocated the RX actually having track connections to other subway lines (I think the end of the line would be 59th St or 62nd/New Utrecht ; connecting to Coney is not actually that useful.) You'd need to build a new yard anyways, simply because the existing ones are full as it is and the RX is long.

 

As of now, it averages 1 train/day. Problem is that the entire line would have to contain no subway trains while this train traverses the Bay Ridge Branch if time-sharing is used. Even if this train ran in the middle of the night, the minimum 20 minute service frequency would be severely disrupted. A third track and the related interlocking would have to be constructed at every station for the wider freight cars to avoid the high platforms served by relatively narrow subway cars. Not an issue if commuter cars are used, of course. Even if a freight train was able to get between Bay Ridge and Jackson Heights at an average speed of 35 mph, we're talking well over half an hour when nothing else can run. This train couldn't have intramodal cars (which make up the majority of freight shipments) becuase of the third rail. Plus, with all the upgrades required to make the existing track passenger-compliant, they may as well build 2 new tracks.

[Trainmaster5]

There's no seperation needed b/w subway and railroad tracks, according to our valuable sources bobtehpanda, lirr42 and Trainmaster5.

 

Also, SIR is FRA for the freight operations and PATH is FRA too because it's still connected to FRA tracks in NJ.

 

Just to clear up some confusion.

 

 

How are you gonna fit them on Hells Gate? It s not like theres plenty of room atm and adding additional tracks, even though possible, would likely be too heavy for the bridge as RR trains are heavier than trolleys that used to run there and the bridge is not made for heavy trains in the first place. Furthermore, there's little to no room in GC on the MNRR tracks and Amtrak's part is unelectrified.

I think Trainmaster5 might be a valuable source at times but not in this case. Carry on.

[m7zanr160s]

Is freight really so busy on the Bay Ridge Branch that time-sharing is not possible at all? In any case, to my knowledge no one has ever advocated the RX actually having track connections to other subway lines (I think the end of the line would be 59th St or 62nd/New Utrecht ; connecting to Coney is not actually that useful.) You'd need to build a new yard anyways, simply because the existing ones are full as it is and the RX is long.

 

The RX connects to the and .

[m7zanr160s]

Also, maybe I'm tripping, but what's the big issue here? The Hell Gate Bridge has room for 4 tracks, so what's wrong with 2 for Amtrack/MNRR and two for the subway? If the RX is done, then that eliminates freight altogether.

 

Right now, I'd love to transfer at Roosevelt Ave for a train directly to the Bronx. As it stands right now, I have to ride all the way to 7th Ave Manhattan for the to the Bronx.

 

This project would certainly cost less than that ESA project that they don't know when it's going to be completed. We need to start taking advantage of the projects that are staring us in the face faster than these brand new endeavors. Shoot, I thought they were building tracks into the existing GCT. Imagine my surprise when I heard they weren't even going to connect. Grand Central has like a hundred tracks, why are we building a brand new cavern beneath all that!?

[cl94]

Also, maybe I'm tripping, but what's the big issue here? The Hell Gate Bridge has room for 4 tracks, so what's wrong with 2 for Amtrack/MNRR and two for the subway? If the RX is done, then that eliminates freight altogether.

 

Right now, I'd love to transfer at Roosevelt Ave for a train directly to the Bronx. As it stands right now, I have to ride all the way to 7th Ave Manhattan for the to the Bronx.

 

This project would certainly cost less than that ESA project that they don't know when it's going to be completed. We need to start taking advantage of the projects that are staring us in the face faster than these brand new endeavors. Shoot, I thought they were building tracks into the existing GCT. Imagine my surprise when I heard they weren't even going to connect. Grand Central has like a hundred tracks, why are we building a brand new cavern beneath all that!?

 

Because there's tons of freight traffic across the Hell Gate using the third track that would have to come in by truck if the freight track was removed. How do you think the NY&A gets shipments to/from its customers in the city and on the Island? The RX plan was to build something while leaving freight service intact and allowing room for freight expansion if they ever build the cross-harbor tunnel. Since the Hell Gate only has room for 4 tracks (with Amtrak planning to reinstall the 4th), subway service would require an additional crossing.

 

They're not going to cut the only remaining land freight link to the Island. They're trying to get more freight rail service on the island, not cut it altogether.

[bobtehpanda]

Also, maybe I'm tripping, but what's the big issue here? The Hell Gate Bridge has room for 4 tracks, so what's wrong with 2 for Amtrack/MNRR and two for the subway? If the RX is done, then that eliminates freight altogether.

 

Right now, I'd love to transfer at Roosevelt Ave for a train directly to the Bronx. As it stands right now, I have to ride all the way to 7th Ave Manhattan for the to the Bronx.

 

This project would certainly cost less than that ESA project that they don't know when it's going to be completed. We need to start taking advantage of the projects that are staring us in the face faster than these brand new endeavors. Shoot, I thought they were building tracks into the existing GCT. Imagine my surprise when I heard they weren't even going to connect. Grand Central has like a hundred tracks, why are we building a brand new cavern beneath all that!?

 

The cavern was built primarily to avoid having to underpin all of Park Avenue and disrupt MNR service.

[Roadcruiser1]

After browsing through this thread for a while I forgot to see a certain problem mentioned. The doesn't own most of the right of way anymore. They own a small section between the lower part of the Canarsie Line, and 59th Street in Brooklyn. The section north of the lower part of the Canarsie Line is owned by C.S.X. while the rest is owned by Amtrak. Unless if the East Side Access is complete even the Penn Station Access idea is up in the air. I haven't been looking back at my notes, and didn't remember this problem. Remember that Amtrak also owns the right of way for the Penn Station Access, and they can shoot down that idea easily too folks.

 

The only service that the can CURRENTLY operate is a split Canarsie Line service to 59th Street, but that might lead to merging problems unless there is some way to remedy this.........

[bobtehpanda]

After browsing through this thread for a while I forgot to see a certain problem mentioned. The doesn't own most of the right of way anymore. They own a small section between the lower part of the Canarsie Line, and 59th Street in Brooklyn. The section north of the lower part of the Canarsie Line is owned by C.S.X. while the rest is owned by Amtrak. Unless if the East Side Access is complete even the Penn Station Access idea is up in the air. I haven't been looking back at my notes, and didn't remember this problem. Remember that Amtrak also owns the right of way for the Penn Station Access, and they can shoot down that idea easily too folks.

 

The only service that the can CURRENTLY operate is a split Canarsie Line service to 59th Street, but that might lead to merging problems unless there is some way to remedy this.........

 

That's not really a problem, considering that many commuter railroads these days are not built on land that they own. It just requires negotiation.

 

Also, it would be entirely possible for the MTA to just deck over the Canarsie Line to Broadway Junction instead of requiring split service, which would just be better operationally. In fact, if you look very closely at the Google Earth area of Broadway Junction, there are two unused portals alongside the freight line going under East New York, and in a straight line it passes under the western end of the Broadway Junction platforms.

[cl94]

After browsing through this thread for a while I forgot to see a certain problem mentioned. The doesn't own most of the right of way anymore. They own a small section between the lower part of the Canarsie Line, and 59th Street in Brooklyn. The section north of the lower part of the Canarsie Line is owned by C.S.X. while the rest is owned by Amtrak.

 

Everything I can find states that CSX only got the New York Connecting Railroad, which ends at Fresh Pond Junction. South of there, it was always (from what I can tell) LIRR.

 

Even if CSX did own the stretch north of Linden Boulevard (why would they?), I bet they'd be more than happy to sell half of the ROW to the for passenger operations. They're a business, not a government agency. It would be better for business to maintain a ROW half the width if they're only using half of it right now.

 

That's not really a problem, considering that many commuter railroads these days are not built on land that they own. It just requires negotiation.

 

Also, it would be entirely possible for the MTA to just deck over the Canarsie Line to Broadway Junction instead of requiring split service, which would just be better operationally. In fact, if you look very closely at the Google Earth area of Broadway Junction, there are two unused portals alongside the freight line going under East New York, and in a straight line it passes under the western end of the Broadway Junction platforms.

 

Doubt that the 100+ year old elevated structure could take 2 more tracks and the related train traffic. A parallel line could be built in the cut with connections to ENY yard and the Jamaica Line at Broadway Junction, so (theoretically) an initial phase of service could run into Manhattan via the Jamaica Line or terminate at ENY.

[Roadcruiser1]

If you terminate it at Fresh Pond Road, or Broadway Junction all you are doing is just making a glorified Brooklyn . It would turn the (X) into something like the  since it's southern terminal would be 59th Street. This is due to the fact that it will run from nowhere to nowhere. Unless if you are trying to make some transfers in Brooklyn it did be a literal failure. A dead weight that would cost a lot of money. Money that the can't afford to waste. Come on there has to be a better solution!!!!!!!

[cl94]

I agree. The area of Brooklyn this would give access to would be better served by extensions of the down Nostrand and Flatbush Avenues and something down Utica Avenue. The most important segment of the line is that between Metropolitan Avenue and Roosevelt Avenue, which happens to be the one part of the line where the ROW does not exist. If they could do this section and an elevated extension to LGA, the entire line would be worthwhile. Until then, it would be a glorified mainly providing connections between lines.

[Vistausss]

Everything I can find states that CSX only got the New York Connecting Railroad, which ends at Fresh Pond Junction. South of there, it was always (from what I can tell) LIRR.

 

LIRR owns the Canarsie ROW and CSX licenses it. The only thing CSX owns is the freight track from Hell Gate to Fresh Pond Yard, which is a heavily used route by CSX (and NY&AR). HGB is owned by Amtrak, even CSX's freight track on it.

[Roadcruiser1]

I agree. The area of Brooklyn this would give access to would be better served by extensions of the down Nostrand and Flatbush Avenues and something down Utica Avenue. The most important segment of the line is that between Metropolitan Avenue and Roosevelt Avenue, which happens to be the one part of the line where the ROW does not exist. If they could do this section and an elevated extension to LGA, the entire line would be worthwhile. Until then, it would be a glorified mainly providing connections between lines.

 

Uh no! People that arrive at LaGuardia Airport usually want to go directly to Manhattan. An Astoria Line extension would work better, and would be cheaper. Extending your proposed (X) up there would solve nothing, and cost the a lot of money. It's like extending the up there which won't help the problem either!!!!

[cl94]

Uh no! People that arrive at LaGuardia Airport usually want to go directly to Manhattan. An Astoria Line extension would work better, and would be cheaper. Extending your proposed (X) up there would solve nothing, and cost the a lot of money. It's like extending the up there which won't help the problem either!!!!

 

I never said that it was a perfect solution. AirTrain JFK wasn't a perfect solution. But, it's easier to put a line on a viaduct in the middle of the BQE and GCP (both of which are wide enough ROWs owned by NYSDOT) than build through a residential neighborhood that currently has nothing. It was only an idea. Or, they could build a spur off of the Flushing line just north of 111th St down the median of GCP to LGA. Again, the state owns the ROW (and this might actually be better because they could run stuff straight into Manhattan). This location has the open space to build an elevated junction without disrupting existing buildings.

[Vistausss]

If they really want to make a LaGuardia line feasible, then they might as well drop AirTrain and convert it for subway use.

[BrooklynIRT]

The area of Brooklyn this would give access to would be better served by extensions of the down Nostrand and Flatbush Avenues

I do not really agree with this unless certain conditions are satisfied.

 

and something down Utica Avenue.

I support this more.

[bobtehpanda]

I never said that it was a perfect solution. AirTrain JFK wasn't a perfect solution. But, it's easier to put a line on a viaduct in the middle of the BQE and GCP (both of which are wide enough ROWs owned by NYSDOT) than build through a residential neighborhood that currently has nothing. It was only an idea. Or, they could build a spur off of the Flushing line just north of 111th St down the median of GCP to LGA. Again, the state owns the ROW (and this might actually be better because they could run stuff straight into Manhattan). This location has the open space to build an elevated junction without disrupting existing buildings.

Once again, no elevated connection to LGA can be built from the west, since there is a runway that ends directly against GCP, and a landing path must remain clear for planes.

[cl94]

Once again, no elevated connection to LGA can be built from the west, since there is a runway that ends directly against GCP, and a landing path must remain clear for planes.

 

I was thinking that it might be an issue, and upon closer inspection, there is no way the FAA would allow anything in the path of the runway north of 30th Avenue. Would also nix any elevated extention. Unless, of course, they tear down some of the public housing next to LGA and build a portal there. The only real options would be to build a tunnel (disruptive and expensive) or build a viaduct from the east (not as hard because there aren't height restrictions).

[bobtehpanda]

If you terminate it at Fresh Pond Road, or Broadway Junction all you are doing is just making a glorified Brooklyn . It would turn the (X) into something like the  since it's southern terminal would be 59th Street. This is due to the fact that it will run from nowhere to nowhere. Unless if you are trying to make some transfers in Brooklyn it did be a literal failure. A dead weight that would cost a lot of money. Money that the can't afford to waste. Come on there has to be a better solution!!!!!!!

 

This is literally the point of the RX. Not everyone is trying to go to Manhattan, and not everyone lives along a train line. You've got cross-Brooklyn routes like the B6 and the B35 that are crowded, busy, and slow, and job growth in the outer boroughs has been much faster than job growth within Manhattan. The is, quite frankly, useless, since it only provides one transfer to a non-IND line in Brooklyn and is too far west to be useful for the majority of people. Even the individual segments of the RX would be very useful; the Q58 is the only connection between Ridgewood and Queens Blvd, and is one of the busiest bus lines in Queens.

 

The current subway setup has a "all roads lead to Rome" problem, in that the geometrically fastest way between two points (twenty minutes on the BQE between Queens and Brooklyn) is a good 70 minutes by the fastest mass transportation option because you have to go all the way into the core and all the way back out. It'd also do a fair amount to relieve core congestion, since going into Manhattan would no longer be necessary for inter-borough travel.

[cl94]

This is literally the point of the RX. Not everyone is trying to go to Manhattan, and not everyone lives along a train line. You've got cross-Brooklyn routes like the B6 and the B35 that are crowded, busy, and slow, and job growth in the outer boroughs has been much faster than job growth within Manhattan. The is, quite frankly, useless, since it only provides one transfer to a non-IND line in Brooklyn and is too far west to be useful for the majority of people. Even the individual segments of the RX would be very useful; the Q58 is the only connection between Ridgewood and Queens Blvd, and is one of the busiest bus lines in Queens.

 

The current subway setup has a "all roads lead to Rome" problem, in that the geometrically fastest way between two points (twenty minutes on the BQE between Queens and Brooklyn) is a good 70 minutes by the fastest mass transportation option because you have to go all the way into the core and all the way back out. It'd also do a fair amount to relieve core congestion, since going into Manhattan would no longer be necessary for inter-borough travel.

 

This is where a Utica Avenue line could be useful. Push it up to Metropolitan Avenue via Malcom X Blvd and Bushwick Avenue (with transfers to the and send it west to a new tunnel under the river to Second Avenue or a connection to the Second Avenue Line (preferable). I'm starting to get into the fantasy realm here, but throw in a Metropolitan Avenue line that feeds into Hillside Avenue to relieve the QBL and the segments of the RX between the and and north of Metropolitan (as an extension) and interborough travel is simplified. This would do the bulk of what the RX is intended to do while rectifying a couple other issues in the system. And no, I do not expect most of this to ever be built.