Triboro (RX) News?

[TeeLow]

Most Amtrak routes are subsidized; keep in mind that Amtrak counts state subsidies as "revenues."

 

Amtrak can charge whatever the hell they want to as long as the seats are filled. That doesn't change the fact that Amtrak and MNR serve two completely different markets and operate completely different styles of service.

I truly didn't know Amtrak was getting monies from State. (Of course! Amtrak owns ROW! *pops self on forehead*). Since Albany is simply another stop along the NEC, Amtrak wouldn't cut stops at the station because of MNRR's presence. If MNRR did run N/O Poughkeepsie, would competitive pricing cause Amtrak to lower their prices? Maybe, but not by much, if at all. Now if HSR service ever comes, premium prices for sure.

 

The thing is though, can MTA justify running service to/from Albany? Is there a large enough commuter base to support the extra cost of equipment, personnel and maintenance?

[realizm]

Good points. These are all things here Governer Cuomo will have to work it out between MNRR, Amtrak and LIRR (In the case of the LIRR, fighting for MNRR space at Penn Station. It will be interesting to see how he does this.

 

As for why the MTA can justify this? Well politicians are known to do things that defies commuter logic throughout the course of city history. US Congress tends to be biased as to New York transportation needs. Larger revenue potential can be the argument but I still think the Triboro Rx will sure bring in much more revenue then a two prong MNRR Penn Station access option in my opinion. For NYC Transit that is. But of course under current administration its made clear they dont give a shit about rapid transit needs. The lines outer borough are getting more congested and the SAS cannot possibly handle the upsurge of ridership alone. The extension addresses a unrelated problem that has no bearing on cross boro needs.

 

Even if I was wrong, it would be silly to neglect the needs of New Yorkers for the upstate folks, its really not fair to us New Yorkers when you think about it.

 

Andrew is just simply creating his flagship transportation project to shine from Albany thats what I suspect. I mean its obvious he is NYC Transit biased it he sole money from us again, money that would have even brought back the hypothetically as many advocates has brought out!

[TeeLow]

Good points. These are all things here Governer Cuomo will have to work it out between MNRR, Amtrak and LIRR (In the case of the LIRR, fighting for MNRR space at Penn Station. It will be interesting to see how he does this.

 

That may be true, but by the time that battle is fought his title might be President Cuomo.

 

As for why the MTA can justify this? Well politicians are known to do things that defies commuter logic throughout the course of city history. US Congress tends to be biased as to New York transportation needs. Larger revenue potential can be the argument but I still think the Triboro Rx will sure bring in much more revenue then a two prong MNRR Penn Station access option in my opinion. For NYC Transit that is. But of course under current administration its made clear they dont give a shit about rapid transit needs. The lines outer borough are getting more congested and the SAS cannot possibly handle the upsurge of ridership alone. The extension addresses a unrelated problem that has no bearing on cross boro needs.

 

True, but in this case the funds needed won't be huge. ROW is already in place. Only one additional station might will be needed in addition to Rhinebeck/Kingston, some additional signals and switches, not much else. Only way it becomes a huge issue is if costs are tacked onto some huge Appropriations bill that would definitely be held up in Congress. AFA the Tri-Rx, wasn't the argument of 4 track occupancy enough to kill any possibility of subway access to Hell's Gate; two for Amtrak, one for freight and one for expansion?

 

[BrooklynIRT]

Regarding making mass transit [trips] in the outer boroughs much faster, what about starting off by making the buses much faster by removing parking and perhaps installing more bus lanes, POP systems, and increasing bus stop spacing where possible? Although getting the city to remove parking from roads buses use would require a lot of cooperation on the part of us, the people.

[cl94]

Absolutely, this makes sense, thats a good arguement you are bringing to the table here. But I cant say its a win win however... Only in the sense that with the NYC Transit Triboro Rx plan axed, locals will have no alternatives to cross-borough travel. The MNRR amazingly has no Queens stops slated in its plan. Many locals will be relunctant to pay railroad fares to travel between Manhattan and the Bronx. The Q44 just doesnt cut it. Both the IRT Flushing and IND Queens Blvd lines which the bus route feeds into is severly overcrowded. (Queens Bvld is the second busiest line in the nation second only to the Lex but you know this just throwing it out there for the record.)

 

It certainly isn't win-win, but it's the best we'll ever get without building a new East River crossing. There certainly needs to be a line between Queens and Upper Manhattan, if not the Bronx, to relieve the bus congestion. There is no good way to get from Queens to north of 63rd Street. I would, however, look at a 125th street line. This might seem really out there, but they're going to build a massive station at 125th and Lex for the . A line from there west to the and southeast into Queens, with additional station stops in East Harlem and on Randall's Island. Extend that east along Astoria Boulevard. If the rest of the NX ever gets built, it can branch off of this line. Would certainly be more useful than a line straight into the Bronx as it would replace the Triborough Bridge buses into Manhattan, while the Bronx could still be easily accessible if one can make easy transfers to the .

 

I truly didn't know Amtrak was getting monies from State. (Of course! Amtrak owns ROW! *pops self on forehead*). Since Albany is simply another stop along the NEC, Amtrak wouldn't cut stops at the station because of MNRR's presence. If MNRR did run N/O Poughkeepsie, would competitive pricing cause Amtrak to lower their prices? Maybe, but not by much, if at all. Now if HSR service ever comes, premium prices for sure.

 

The thing is though, can MTA justify running service to/from Albany? Is there a large enough commuter base to support the extra cost of equipment, personnel and maintenance?

 

Amtrak only owns a stretch north of Albany. Everything between Poughkeepsie and Albany is CSX trackage leased by Amtrak and upgraded for higher-speed service. And those Penn-Albany trains get PACKED. Rhinecliff has a full parking lot every day. People from northern Dutchess drive down to Poughkeepsie to take MNRR. By numbers of boarding and alighting passengers, Albany is the 9th busiest Amtrak station with 3/4 million per year. Most are going to/from Penn and the large lot is always packed. People will take a slightly longer ride if it costs 30% less. Medium and long-distance trains traveling beyond Albany would not be affected.

 

Good points. These are all things here Governer Cuomo will have to work it out between MNRR, Amtrak and LIRR (In the case of the LIRR, fighting for MNRR space at Penn Station. It will be interesting to see how he does this.

 

As for why the MTA can justify this? Well politicians are known to do things that defies commuter logic throughout the course of city history. US Congress tends to be biased as to New York transportation needs. Larger revenue potential can be the argument but I still think the Triboro Rx will sure bring in much more revenue then a two prong MNRR Penn Station access option in my opinion. For NYC Transit that is. But of course under current administration its made clear they dont give a shit about rapid transit needs. The lines outer borough are getting more congested and the SAS cannot possibly handle the upsurge of ridership alone. The extension addresses a unrelated problem that has no bearing on cross boro needs.

 

Even if I was wrong, it would be silly to neglect the needs of New Yorkers for the upstate folks, its really not fair to us New Yorkers when you think about it.

 

Andrew is just simply creating his flagship transportation project to shine from Albany thats what I suspect. I mean its obvious he is NYC Transit biased it he sole money from us again, money that would have even brought back the hypothetically as many advocates has brought out!

 

With what people in Buffalo are asking for, be glad that the is getting any money. Remember Carl Paladino? A lot of people are like him. I attend university in Buffalo. They hate downstate more than anything. The thing about the RX is that it never would have been plausible without an additional East River crossing. CSX is not giving up its freight track and Amtrak has been planning to add a third passenger track for 10 years. The bridge can only hold 4 tracks. While not an ideal solution, it's certainly cheaper than spending billions on a new rapid transit tunnel, which would certainly anger the people up here who are annoyed that they aren't getting 150% of their tax dollars back. Cuomo is hated enough in these parts. He'll certainly have stronger opponents if he loses all of upstate.

 

True, but in this case the funds needed won't be huge. ROW is already in place. Only one additional station might will be needed in addition to Rhinebeck/Kingston, some additional signals and switches, not much else. Only way it becomes a huge issue is if costs are tacked onto some huge Appropriations bill that would definitely be held up in Congress. AFA the Tri-Rx, wasn't the argument of 4 track occupancy enough to kill any possibility of subway access to Hell's Gate; two for Amtrak, one for freight and one for expansion?

 

Agree with each of your points. Commuter rail needs to move further north. By the time you get to Rhinecliff (which has exactly zero open space), you may as well go to Albany. Albany will soon have a 4th track and it has shop facilities, a yard, and a relatively-new terminal building. Everything south of there has already had upgrades to allow speeds up to 110 MPH. Build a couple intermediate stations between the existing ones and you have a line.

[qjtransitmaster]

Absolutely, this makes sense, thats a good arguement you are bringing to the table here. But I cant say its a win win however... Only in the sense that with the NYC Transit Triboro Rx plan axed, locals will have no alternatives to cross-borough travel. The MNRR amazingly has no Queens stops slated in its plan. Many locals will be relunctant to pay railroad fares to travel between Manhattan and the Bronx. The Q44 just doesnt cut it. Both the IRT Flushing and IND Queens Blvd lines which the bus route feeds into is severly overcrowded. (Queens Bvld is the second busiest line in the nation second only to the Lex but you know this just throwing it out there for the record.)

 

The only is useful for Brooklynites wishing to gain access to Long Island City esp now that service to Forest Hills is now history.

 

So even as you are correct on how the MNRR will provide better commuter access to Manhattan from upstate it has no usefulness for Brooklyn or Queens residents who has no crosstown rapid transit options. In the 20 year needs assessment pdf released by the MTA they acknowledged that demographics are exploding outside of Manhattan in its residential and business districts in the outer boros making a loop line something to consider.

 

One can only imagine the potential for fare collection revenue the MTA could have collected from a such a line as the Triboro Rx had it been built. It would have paid for itself many times over in a short period of time and even turn a high profit after operational costs are factored in.

So true

 

It certainly isn't win-win, but it's the best we'll ever get without building a new East River crossing. There certainly needs to be a line between Queens and Upper Manhattan, if not the Bronx, to relieve the bus congestion. There is no good way to get from Queens to north of 63rd Street. I would, however, look at a 125th street line. This might seem really out there, but they're going to build a massive station at 125th and Lex for the . A line from there west to the and southeast into Queens, with additional station stops in East Harlem and on Randall's Island. Extend that east along Astoria Boulevard. If the rest of the NX ever gets built, it can branch off of this line. Would certainly be more useful than a line straight into the Bronx as it would replace the Triborough Bridge buses into Manhattan, while the Bronx could still be easily accessible if one can make easy transfers to the .

 

 

Amtrak only owns a stretch north of Albany. Everything between Poughkeepsie and Albany is CSX trackage leased by Amtrak and upgraded for higher-speed service. And those Penn-Albany trains get PACKED. Rhinecliff has a full parking lot every day. People from northern Dutchess drive down to Poughkeepsie to take MNRR. By numbers of boarding and alighting passengers, Albany is the 9th busiest Amtrak station with 3/4 million per year. Most are going to/from Penn and the large lot is always packed. People will take a slightly longer ride if it costs 30% less. Medium and long-distance trains traveling beyond Albany would not be affected.

 

 

With what people in Buffalo are asking for, be glad that the is getting any money. Remember Carl Paladino? A lot of people are like him. I attend university in Buffalo. They hate downstate more than anything. The thing about the RX is that it never would have been plausible without an additional East River crossing. CSX is not giving up its freight track and Amtrak has been planning to add a third passenger track for 10 years. The bridge can only hold 4 tracks. While not an ideal solution, it's certainly cheaper than spending billions on a new rapid transit tunnel, which would certainly anger the people up here who are annoyed that they aren't getting 150% of their tax dollars back. Cuomo is hated enough in these parts. He'll certainly have stronger opponents if he loses all of upstate.

 

 

Agree with each of your points. Commuter rail needs to move further north. By the time you get to Rhinecliff (which has exactly zero open space), you may as well go to Albany. Albany will soon have a 4th track and it has shop facilities, a yard, and a relatively-new terminal building. Everything south of there has already had upgrades to allow speeds up to 110 MPH. Build a couple intermediate stations between the existing ones and you have a line.

Good let CDTA or Albany pay for it!!! here is an instafix add more Amtrak trains adjust the fare to be more reasonable done.

[Vistausss]

MNRR could set up monthlies to/from Albany and cross-honor them on Amtrak trains, just like MARC does when it's not running but Amtrak is.

[bobtehpanda]

MNRR could set up monthlies to/from Albany and cross-honor them on Amtrak trains, just like MARC does when it's not running but Amtrak is.

 

This is, of course, assuming that the commuter railroad of the New York metropolitan region should serve as far as Albany.

 

Any commuter rail for Albany should be operated by an Albany agency to meet local demand better, and extend south from Albany. An Albany-focused agency would be better to meet needs than a bureaucratic MTA (plus then MNR wouldn't have to deal with negotiating with freight railroads)

[Union Tpke]

I am a big fan of the Triboro Rx, but I do think the PSA should happen, but not via Hells Gate. 

I have an unlikely proposal

It would operate from Grand Central and then at location

https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.8052,-73.939&q=loc:40.8052,-73.939&hl=en&t=m&z=15

it would branch on to the Hells Gate

There would be a connection to Penn Station from GC for NJT

[Vistausss]

This is, of course, assuming that the commuter railroad of the New York metropolitan region should serve as far as Albany.

 

Which is why I said "MNNR *could* [...]"

[cl94]

MTA territory stretches up to Red Hook. The state could operate through service north of there under a different name to Albany (like how NJT runs trains to Port Jervis), a distance of approximately 40 miles. I never said that the MTA had to foot the bill. I was simply giving an example of how Penn Station access could be useful for Hudson Valley transportation. Dutchess, Columbia, and Rensselaer should put money toward an extension. The biggest problem is that every train to/from Albany (with the notable exception of a sleeper to Chicago) is funded by NYSDOT and the fares are outrageous. Regular prices for coach tickets to Albany are $80 and ~$50 to Poughkeepsie. Why? Because Amtrak rolling stock doesn't have the capacity, the unions require a large staff, and there's a middleman.

[realizm]

This is, of course, assuming that the commuter railroad of the New York metropolitan region should serve as far as Albany.

 

Any commuter rail for Albany should be operated by an Albany agency to meet local demand better, and extend south from Albany. An Albany-focused agency would be better to meet needs than a bureaucratic MTA (plus then MNR wouldn't have to deal with negotiating with freight railroads)

My thinking on that is if the MTA all of a sudden hands over operations to another public benefits corperation we will be hitting the school of hard knocks with the transition and end up in a whole world of hurt. I dont think this is a good move to make. I mean the MTA should recieve state funding for construction and operations as Cuomo is supporting the project and as stated before working as mediator between Amtrak, MNRR and LIRR. So it wouldnt matter.

 

It's sad that the NYC Transit project got deaded. Then again if the State Of New York wishes to go along with the Penn Station Access mega-project, to hand operations over to another firm say like the CDTA would cause an incredible array of problems that will surely affect service or funding or projected construction completion dates. Also it may even create legal loopholes and tangles which Amtrak will surely take advantage of to stop the MTA project in its tracks.

 

Interesting concept here and what you are saying does lend food for thought however alot of woes can come from a transition of operators of the Hells Gate Line with an extension to Albany to an inexperienced agency if you will. I mean it wouldnt matter - apparently the state and possible in part the federal goverment may pay the majority of costs as they are doing with the NYC Transit Second Ave Line as another example.

 

Remember Christine's Quinns ridiculous idea during her mayoral campaign alluding to city takeover of MTA NYC Transit during last years mayoral race? Is this woman crazy or what?! Imagine the insanity that would follow. Now think of what would happen if another agency all of a sudden takes over operation of the pending MNRR share of occupation, of the Hells Gate Line, to finish off the mega project and assume operations.

[Vistausss]

MTA territory stretches up to Red Hook. The state could operate through service north of there under a different name to Albany (like how NJT runs trains to Port Jervis), a distance of approximately 40 miles. I never said that the MTA had to foot the bill. I was simply giving an example of how Penn Station access could be useful for Hudson Valley transportation. Dutchess, Columbia, and Rensselaer should put money toward an extension. The biggest problem is that every train to/from Albany (with the notable exception of a sleeper to Chicago) is funded by NYSDOT and the fares are outrageous. Regular prices for coach tickets to Albany are $80 and ~$50 to Poughkeepsie. Why? Because Amtrak rolling stock doesn't have the capacity, the unions require a large staff, and there's a middleman.

 

True. At one point, there was more through service on what are now the MNRR branches. For example, somewhere in history one could ve had a one-seat ride to Massachussets from Grand Central via what is now the Danbury branch.

 

Btw, just FYI: Columbia did once have RR service from Grand Central on. Nowadays, the Harlem line ends at Wassaic but it used to extend to Columbia. Part of the ROW is now a trailway.

[qjtransitmaster]

MTA territory stretches up to Red Hook. The state could operate through service north of there under a different name to Albany (like how NJT runs trains to Port Jervis), a distance of approximately 40 miles. I never said that the MTA had to foot the bill. I was simply giving an example of how Penn Station access could be useful for Hudson Valley transportation. Dutchess, Columbia, and Rensselaer should put money toward an extension. The biggest problem is that every train to/from Albany (with the notable exception of a sleeper to Chicago) is funded by NYSDOT and the fares are outrageous. Regular prices for coach tickets to Albany are $80 and ~$50 to Poughkeepsie. Why? Because Amtrak rolling stock doesn't have the capacity, the unions require a large staff, and there's a middleman.

Please stop again let CDTA subsidise Amtrak to lower the fare. Amtrak's fares to anywhere are outrageous period. I even got a NYC to buffalo ticket that was cheaper than NYC to Albany sad isn't it. Let those counties put money for more Amtrak trains and a fare policy similar to MD's MARC.

[cl94]

Please stop again let CDTA subsidise Amtrak to lower the fare. Amtrak's fares to anywhere are outrageous period. I even got a NYC to buffalo ticket that was cheaper than NYC to Albany sad isn't it. Let those counties put money for more Amtrak trains and a fare policy similar to MD's MARC.

 

The main point of my post was to show how Penn Station Access might improve statewide transportation. The main areas that want MNRR service are south of Hudson, inclusive. Dutchess County (i.e. Rhinecliff) is MTA territory. From there to just south of Rensselaer is no-man's land. All I was saying was that it would make more financial sense for the state to just bridge the 40 miles north of Red Hook by making that commuter rail to use the already-existing yard and cut the Amtrak scoots. Nothing more.

[Vistausss]

To add to that, they might was well lay tracks on the Tappan Zee Bridge and connect EOH and WOH.

[TeeLow]

 

 

To add to that, they might was well lay tracks on the Tappan Zee Bridge and connect EOH and WOH.

Doubt if they'll do that on the new Pete Seeger Bridge.

 

No new public transportation

 

 

West of Tappan Zee, the 680,000 residents of Rockland and Orange counties currently have very limited mass transit to New York City via the Port Jervis Line and Pascack Valley Line commuter rail services. However, the bridge plan includes as an objective merely, "Providing a crossing that does not preclude future trans-Hudson transit services."^[9]

A proposed bus rapid transit system using the new bridge was shelved as too expensive. The existing New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority Metro-North Hudson commuter rail line Tarrytown station is located about 2,000 feet (610 m) from the new bridge's eastern landing. In 2011, the state estimated that a bus connector to the station would add about $151 million, or about 3 percent to projected costs of the new bridge.^[15]

Responding to widespread concerns about the lack of new public transit service, bridge planners agreed only to a "dedicated express bus lane" in each direction for use during rush hour.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tappan_Zee_Bridge_Replacement

 

 

The bridge has been a sprawl machine ever since it was completed in 1955, ushering in a wave of suburban building in formerly rural Rockland and Orange Counties. Transit activists are upset that the Cuomo administration ditched plans to add commuter rail on the bridge, but they should really be upset about the addition of any east-west travel capacity across this point on the Hudson.

 

A rail crossing 20 miles north of Manhattan was questionable from the start. The New York counties west of the Hudson are irredeemably auto-oriented, and Westchester isn't much better. A rail link would have been expensive and would likely have done little to get suburbanites out of their cars.

 

There is a better option for improving the lot of commuters from Rockland County. Instead of expanding east-west road capacity, the state should look at north-south rail options. The region has a number of old rail lines that could be returned to passenger service for a fraction of the cost of a new bridge. These north-south links between suburban Rockland County and more urbanized parts of northern New Jersey and ultimately Manhattan would serve commuters far better than a wider Tappan Zee.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-28/don-t-build-a-new-tappan-zee-bridge.html

[Vistausss]

I didn't say they were gonna do that ??? We're talking *future* ideas here. They can always build a narrow railroad bridge next to the Pete Seeger in 40 years or so when they might evaluate all things and decide to connect EOH and WOH after all.

 

Btw, that article is a bit lacking. Where is the mention of Rockland County's popular Tappan Zee Express bus???

[TeeLow]

I didn't say they were gonna do that ??? We're talking *future* ideas here. They can always build a narrow railroad bridge next to the Pete Seeger in 40 years or so when they might evaluate all things and decide to connect EOH and WOH after all.

 

Btw, that article is a bit lacking. Where is the mention of Rockland County's popular Tappan Zee Express bus???

You said "They might as well" and I said "I doubt they will". Neither comment is fact based, right? Just two guys talking out of our nostrils. The links provided were basically informational, yet I'm sure the veterans on this topic are already in the know. It would be great if the new bridge was built with planned rail usage that would have immediate impact upon completion or for future considerations. They could build a second, rail only, bridge. They could also build a memorial to Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire. He owns a mansion and a yatch.

 

Connecting east & west by commuter rail seems like a pipe dream. Maybe they'll consider zeppelin service?

 

 

Right now it seems they're only considering dedicated lanes during rush hour for Express buses. I would imagine that is for the TZx and other commuter coaches

[Vistausss]

If MNRR plays it smart, they could set up a rail link b/w EOH and WOH using the future express bus lanes. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, I'm thinking just something like Hudson Rail Link in Riverdale.

Alternatively, they could subsidize Rockland County and cross-honor "yet-to-be-announced" MNRR monthlies EOH-WOH on the TZx.

 

(btw: will Rockland County keep the TZx name or, despite the sea keeping its name, go along with the new bridge name and name the service "Pete Seeger Express"?)

[bobtehpanda]

If MNRR plays it smart, they could set up a rail link b/w EOH and WOH using the future express bus lanes. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, I'm thinking just something like Hudson Rail Link in Riverdale.

Alternatively, they could subsidize Rockland County and cross-honor "yet-to-be-announced" MNRR monthlies EOH-WOH on the TZx.

 

(btw: will Rockland County keep the TZx name or, despite the sea keeping its name, go along with the new bridge name and name the service "Pete Seeger Express"?)

 

The way name changes go over here, "Pete Seeger Bridge" is going to be about as common as "Ed Koch Bridge" or "Joe DiMaggio Highway".

[Vistausss]

But that doesn't answer my question?

[TeeLow]

But that doesn't answer my question?

Hell, they'll prolly name it The 'New' Tappan Zee Bridge. I haven't found any info to answer your question. However, I came across a website that might provide info about it in the future.

[bobtehpanda]

But that doesn't answer my question?

It will probably still be the Tappan Zee Express. They're not going to name some commuter services after a public figure (because that would just be very bizzare.) It's not "Ed Koch Plaza", is it?

[cl94]

It will probably still be the Tappan Zee Express. They're not going to name some commuter services after a public figure (because that would just be very bizzare.) It's not "Ed Koch Plaza", is it?

 

Don't tempt them. Knowing how politics are in this state, it may become so very soon.