mine248 Posted April 12, 2014 Share #1 Posted April 12, 2014 Will the train reroute via 2nd Ave? Or there will be split route with rush hours to Astoria? You tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted April 12, 2014 Share #2 Posted April 12, 2014 We don't really know. Logic would dictate that the Q would only serve 2nd Avenue and the W would be resurrected to run its 2004-2010 route once again, but that's only based on our assumptions. The MTA may have other ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted April 12, 2014 Share #3 Posted April 12, 2014 They'll probably do a study, and just like when the Manhattan Bridge work was finished, it may be different from the current assumptions. They may even look at trying to connect the local tracks to 63rd (pretty easy northbound, but would need some column relocation southbound), which would give SAS direct access to lower Manhattan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted April 12, 2014 Share #4 Posted April 12, 2014 Q up 2nd, W to Astoria. Has even been stated in public meetings! Disclaimer: Of course, things can always change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cl94 Posted April 12, 2014 Share #5 Posted April 12, 2014 They'll probably do a study, and just like when the Manhattan Bridge work was finished, it may be different from the current assumptions. They may even look at trying to connect the local tracks to 63rd (pretty easy northbound, but would need some column relocation southbound), which would give SAS direct access to lower Manhattan. Except for those columns, the trackways (mostly) exist because of the planned extension to the Upper West Side. It would be smart to put them in there even if a local didn't go to 2nd Avenue. What would really be nice is if they could get a local AND an express up there to encourage people to take SAS instead of the Lex, but there's no way you could fit 5 services on Broadway or 6th Avenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted April 12, 2014 Share #6 Posted April 12, 2014 It's not impossible to fit five lines on Broadway. They did it in '86. It'd just be one hell of a tight squeeze though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cl94 Posted April 12, 2014 Share #7 Posted April 12, 2014 It's not impossible to fit five lines on Broadway. They did it in '86. It'd just be one hell of a tight squeeze though. Forgot about that and 2001-04. It was tight and 57th was often backed up. We'd have the switching issues at TSQ and 57th to contend with, unless the would just run express to 57th in such a situation as 49th would be seeing 3 lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted April 12, 2014 Share #8 Posted April 12, 2014 Except for those columns, the trackways (mostly) exist because of the planned extension to the Upper West Side. Let them finish the planned SAS before any extensions are talked about. They treat the SAS like it's gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted April 12, 2014 Share #9 Posted April 12, 2014 They treat the SAS like it's gold. What? So you apparently forgotten that the entire purpose of the Second Avenue Subway is to relieve crowding on the IRT Lexington Avenue Line, which is currently the only line to directly serve East Midtown and the Upper East Side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted April 13, 2014 Share #10 Posted April 13, 2014 Let them finish the planned SAS before any extensions are talked about. They treat the SAS like it's gold. Have you seen the Lex? It's better than gold. That and the Queens Blvd Bypass are the two big things that the city should be pursuing. Anything else that the planners want (outer borough extensions, extending the anywhere, ESA to Atlantic) can wait in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted April 13, 2014 Share #11 Posted April 13, 2014 What? So you apparently forgotten that the entire purpose of the Second Avenue Subway is to relieve crowding on the IRT Lexington Avenue Line, which is currently the only line to directly serve East Midtown and the Upper East Side? My point is that they should stop talking about the SAS extensions to Upper West Side or Brooklyn until they actually build it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted April 13, 2014 Share #12 Posted April 13, 2014 Except for those columns, the trackways (mostly) exist because of the planned extension to the Upper West Side. It would be smart to put them in there even if a local didn't go to 2nd Avenue. What would really be nice is if they could get a local AND an express up there to encourage people to take SAS instead of the Lex, but there's no way you could fit 5 services on Broadway or 6th Avenue. Yes, I had once sent in the suggestion, doing putins up there and seeing how it was layed out. The UWS extension veered west, while the 63rd St. connection goes east, so the trackway for the uptown local merges into the 63rd St. northbound trackway as if it was intended to connect. It's on the downtown side where the 63rd St. diverges from the local trackway, and there are columns inbetween. So it was when I sent in the suggestion they replied it was already being looked at. Recall, the original plan to bring SAS to lower Manhattan was to totally reconfigure the Canal St. area, so that the express leads tot he tunnel, and the local leads to the bridge. That was totally ridiculous, and would be a major construction project that would impact both service and the streets above. But luckily, it fell by the wayside, because it was a compromise with the old "stubway" proposal that was set aside when they finally promised to do the whole line (eventually; who knows when now), in order to get the funds. So now, this 57th St. area idea would be a better, much cheaper alternative (the structure would only need new supports when the columns are removed) if they wanted direct Wall St/ area service. I don't know why they didn't just think of that back then. There are only five extra stops on the local, and since it's the BMT, and not as congested as the Lexington, and you don't have impedances like 14th with the gap fillers, that wouldn't matter as much, so it would still be a better alternative. (Having both a local and express would only make sense once it goes all the way up to 125th and had drawn a lot of people from up there, and they were willing to take away one of Astoria's services). And it's of course also good for reroutes of the local via 63rd (which happen all the time now, and were a bit more difficult when 57th St. express tracks were or are being used as a terminal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingoat Posted April 13, 2014 Share #13 Posted April 13, 2014 Look gentlemen, go back to the original plan of 1940 which was purpose which is the SAS is based on and the removal of the 2nd ave el. It would of been built by 44 but a small war stopped it. It wasn't designed for Brooklyn or to go other than where 2nd Avenue went. Remember the area being built now is the first area removed in 1940. Somewhere on this site is an old map of the system pre 40 and look at the 2nd ave and you will see exactly where they are going and building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingoat Posted April 13, 2014 Share #14 Posted April 13, 2014 Here.s a link to 1939 map of the subway system at that time http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1939.jpg Let this be your guide of what they are going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted April 13, 2014 Share #15 Posted April 13, 2014 Look gentlemen, go back to the original plan of 1940 which was purpose which is the SAS is based on and the removal of the 2nd ave el. It would of been built by 44 but a small war stopped it. It wasn't designed for Brooklyn or to go other than where 2nd Avenue went. Remember the area being built now is the first area removed in 1940. Somewhere on this site is an old map of the system pre 40 and look at the 2nd ave and you will see exactly where they are going and building. That's not actually true. The 1939 plan has a connection from Second Avenue to the current Transit Museum, as well as a connection to a line running along Amtrak in the Bronx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingoat Posted April 13, 2014 Share #16 Posted April 13, 2014 That's not actually true. The 1939 plan has a connection from Second Avenue to the current Transit Museum, as well as a connection to a line running along Amtrak in the Bronx. Remember the 2nd ave and 3 ave ran together at the bottom and the top. When the 3rd was torn down it was removed in Manhattan but the tracks still operated in the Bronx for a number of years afterward. The line you talk about in Brooklyn was the Myrtle and Fulton els which were removed up to Navy Street on the Myrtle but but almost all on the Fulton. These trains went over the Brooklyn Bridge and were removed in the 40's along with the rest of the 2nd avenue for steel for the war effort. Those open areas down by South Ferry use to be a large elevated multi-level train station which again was removed in the 50's when 3rd ave was removed. The areas were turned into traffic lanes just like the Queensboro bridge had a trolley car which operated on the lower deck outer roadway. which I rode on as a boy. Where the transit museum is and in that area where DeKalb station was the main shopping district of Brooklyn. It was taking 42nd , 34th and 14 th streets of Manhattan and putting them all together in Brooklyn. It went by the New York Central tracks in the Bronx for the simple reason that's where the people lived and worked. Basically the Bronx east of those tracks was built on swamp. as Pelham Bay to Throggs Neck was tidal marsh and full of pheasant 60 years ago not wall to wall apartments bldgs as today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted April 13, 2014 Share #17 Posted April 13, 2014 Will the train reroute via 2nd Ave? Or there will be split route with rush hours to Astoria? You tell me. This is just an educated guess, but I strongly believe operations planning will reinstate the and let it go all the way to Astoria. The in its entirety will run to 2nd Ave. Reason being the requirements for proper frequency of cars to provide adequate passenger capacity as the usage of the stations along 2nd Ave grows as it is open for business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted April 13, 2014 Share #18 Posted April 13, 2014 This is just an educated guess, but I strongly believe operations planning will reinstate the and let it go all the way to Astoria. The in its entirety will run to 2nd Ave. Reason being the requirements for proper frequency of cars to provide adequate passenger capacity as the usage of the stations along 2nd Ave grows as it is open for business. Would the then terminate at Whitehall as before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted April 13, 2014 Share #19 Posted April 13, 2014 Would the then terminate at Whitehall as before? Yup, should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted April 13, 2014 Share #20 Posted April 13, 2014 Remember the 2nd ave and 3 ave ran together at the bottom and the top. When the 3rd was torn down it was removed in Manhattan but the tracks still operated in the Bronx for a number of years afterward. The line you talk about in Brooklyn was the Myrtle and Fulton els which were removed up to Navy Street on the Myrtle but but almost all on the Fulton. These trains went over the Brooklyn Bridge and were removed in the 40's along with the rest of the 2nd avenue for steel for the war effort. Those open areas down by South Ferry use to be a large elevated multi-level train station which again was removed in the 50's when 3rd ave was removed. The areas were turned into traffic lanes just like the Queensboro bridge had a trolley car which operated on the lower deck outer roadway. which I rode on as a boy. Where the transit museum is and in that area where DeKalb station was the main shopping district of Brooklyn. It was taking 42nd , 34th and 14 th streets of Manhattan and putting them all together in Brooklyn. It went by the New York Central tracks in the Bronx for the simple reason that's where the people lived and worked. Basically the Bronx east of those tracks was built on swamp. as Pelham Bay to Throggs Neck was tidal marsh and full of pheasant 60 years ago not wall to wall apartments bldgs as today. That's incorrect. The Second Av El was IRT loading gauge (as was the Third Av El), and the Fulton St El was BMT loading gauge; they never ran together. By the time the map was created, the IND Fulton Line already existed, and the Fulton El was actively being replaced. If you look at the 1939 proposal, the Fulton line is actually on Atlantic in Downtown Brooklyn; the Fulton El did not do this, but the IND did. Thus, the connection there is to the former Court St stop on the Fulton Local. (Coincidentally, this Second Avenue tunnel to Brooklyn is also south of the Joralemon St tunnel, meaning that the line was not running on the Brooklyn Bridge at all. The Second System actually proposed keeping the Myrtle Av connection over the Brooklyn Bridge; even though the map shows no Fulton Elevated, you can clearly see a Myrtle Av Line ending at Park Row.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted April 13, 2014 Share #21 Posted April 13, 2014 Yup, should be. I remember seeing some s at 36 St station in regular service when it was still running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted April 13, 2014 Share #22 Posted April 13, 2014 The ran about 10 trains during its 2004-2010 service pattern. When the starts and ends service, it extends to/from Brooklyn via Montague, 4th Ave Local and Sea Beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted April 13, 2014 Share #23 Posted April 13, 2014 I'm curious as to why everyone automatically thinks the will come back into service once the is rerouted to Second Avenue. I assume it's because the will need help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted April 13, 2014 Share #24 Posted April 13, 2014 It's because, while the Ns TPH can simply be increased to its present N/Q levels on the Astoria line, Sea Beach does not need that much service. Restoring the W allows overall service to remain the same along Astoria and Sea Beach while also boosting service along the Broadway Local, especially south of Canal St. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupojohn Posted April 13, 2014 Share #25 Posted April 13, 2014 It's because, while the Ns TPH can simply be increased to its present N/Q levels on the Astoria line, Sea Beach does not need that much service. Restoring the W allows overall service to remain the same along Astoria and Sea Beach while also boosting service along the Broadway Local, especially south of Canal St. And that means it goes from Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street or further south? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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