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BrooklynBus

The MTA is Incompetently Operating the B44 and B36 Buses

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A statement was made that since there are few Blacks living in Sheeadshead Bay and since Canarsie is primarily Black, there is no reason to connect the two neighborhoods. I was pointing out that first,Sheepshead Bay is not all white, and if it's true that Blacks have more of a reason to travel to Canarsie, it is a difficult trip. That's not to say non-whites have no reason to travel to Canarsie. I made that trip by car for six months in 2011and I am white as you know. I drove because it took at least half the time as by bus. Car 20 to 30 minutes. Bus probably at least 35 minutes not including waits for two buses of about 20 to 40 minutes.

And I still don't see a reason... I went to high school by those housing projects, as I was zoned there, even though I lived closer to Manhattan Beach than anything on the other side of the bay, and those folks generally either stay within that general area or venture to points north.  I mean of course Sheepshead Bay isn't all white, but aside from those housing projects, I would say that blacks are scantly scattered in the area and their representation dwindles significantly outside of those housing projects when you start going to points west in Sheepshead Bay towards Gravesend, and your example of one group would not necessarily show that a bus route would be needed to Canarsie, especially since that group isn't traveling in huge amounts to points east, and if they are, I'd like some specific examples other than yours.  Would they be going there because of shopping? Job opportunities? What would draw them to Canarsie other than it being mainly black? I mean let's face it, they've got basically everything that they need in terms of shopping right within walking distance... Supermarket, places to eat, post office, etc. all right there.  Why would they go all the way to Canarsie for that?  Aside from that we're also talking about a black Caribbean neighborhood in Canarsie vs a black American population for the most part in Sheepshead Bay, which from my understanding, have two distinct cultures.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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And I still don't see a reason... I went to high school by those housing projects, as I was zoned there, even though I lived closer to Manhattan Beach than anything on the other side of the bay, and those folks generally either stay within that general area or venture to points north.  I mean of course Sheepshead Bay isn't all white, but aside from those housing projects, I would say that blacks are scantly scattered in the area and their representation dwindles significantly outside of those housing projects when you start going to points west in Sheepshead Bay towards Gravesend, and your example of one group would not necessarily show that a bus route would be needed to Canarsie, especially since that group isn't traveling in huge amounts to points east, and if they are, I'd like some specific examples other than yours.  Would they be going there because of shopping? Job opportunities? What would draw them to Canarsie other than it being mainly black? I mean let's face it, they've got basically everything that they need in terms of shopping right within walking distance... Supermarket, places to eat, post office, etc. all right there.  Why would they go all the way to Canarsie for that?  Aside from that we're also talking about a black Caribbean neighborhood in Canarsie vs a black American population for the most part in Sheepshead Bay, which from my understanding, have two distinct cultures.

We are never going to resolve the question of where people need to travel regardless of their color because neither you nor I nor the MTA knows that answer. The point is that if a trip requires three buses and two fares as most trips would between Sheepshead Bay and Canarsie, for example, few will make that trip by mass transit. It is also a known fact that improving transportation opportunities increases where a potential job seeker will look for a job and that is good for the economy. Short trips should never be inconvenient.

 

The question you ask, "prove people need to travel there", is the same question they asked us when I made te southwest Brooklyn bus proposals. The MTA claimed there was no demand from Brighton Beach to Bensonhurst because few were traveling between those neighborhoods. We tried to tell them that demand was light because it required a long indirect subway trip through Downtown Brooklyn or three buses B68 to either B1 or B3 to a third bus. Bay Ridge was a fourth bus. Now with the direct B1, there is a heavy demand. Similarly before the B11 extension past 18th Avenue, few were traveling between Borough Park and Midwood because it was also a three bus trip for many. After the B11 extension, not only do many make that trip, the entire Midwood was changed with te Orthodox Jews expanding from Borough Park to Midwood.

 

Just as the first subways were built when there was little demand to go to upper Manhattan or to Flushing from Manhattan, better bus routes can also makean impact on and use and population changes.

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We are never going to resolve the question of where people need to travel regardless of their color because neither you nor I nor the MTA knows that answer. The point is that if a trip requires three buses and two fares as most trips would between Sheepshead Bay and Canarsie, for example, few will make that trip by mass transit. It is also a known fact that improving transportation opportunities increases where a potential job seeker will look for a job and that is good for the economy. Short trips should never be inconvenient.

 

The question you ask, "prove people need to travel there", is the same question they asked us when I made te southwest Brooklyn bus proposals. The MTA claimed there was no demand from Brighton Beach to Bensonhurst because few were traveling between those neighborhoods. We tried to tell them that demand was light because it required a long indirect subway trip through Downtown Brooklyn or three buses B68 to either B1 or B3 to a third bus. Bay Ridge was a fourth bus. Now with the direct B1, there is a heavy demand. Similarly before the B11 extension past 18th Avenue, few were traveling between Borough Park and Midwood because it was also a three bus trip for many. After the B11 extension, not only do many make that trip, the entire Midwood was changed with te Orthodox Jews expanding from Borough Park to Midwood.

 

Just as the first subways were built when there was little demand to go to upper Manhattan or to Flushing from Manhattan, better bus routes can also make an impact on and use and population changes.

Well I'll agree with you on the part in bold.  I think one needs to be careful in suggesting tons of bus routes though, because we should first ensure that the ones that exist run well and are getting the job done.

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Well I'll agree with you on the part in bold.  I think one needs to be careful in suggesting tons of bus routes though, because we should first ensure that the ones that exist run well and are getting the job done.

None of the routes I proposed are fantasy routes, but ones where I believe there is real demand for. In the early 70s I did propose a few routes which I later realized had little potential demand, so I dropped them. Some that I proposed back in 1972, the MTA implemented independently over the next 30 years. It just took them much longer to see what was obvious to me.

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Why would Sheepshead Bay (a majority white neighborhood) need connections to Canarsie (a majority black neighborhood)?!??? :huh:

What does race have anything to so with where people want to travel? I'm sorry but that comment is racist.

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The problem with the B36 is the lack supervision at avenue u that actually do there job and dispatch buses on time. also report operators that are always late. as for the B44 south of ave x ( this is where i live) i have said since ltd service began there was to much service. 

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Look if ya want to go from Sheepshead Bay to Canarsie, its called the B44 to the B6 or B82, its that simple. As for the B36, B44, and B4. As far as the B36 is concerned that line has bunched like crazy since the beginning of freaking time. I do believe 4-5 minute headways should be in place until at least 10 AM if not 10:30, that could result in more bunching but at least there are more buses to handle the crowds. Or at least have additional runs to Sheepshead Bay Rd station from both directions. As for the B44-SBS, generally there are not too many people traveling south of Ave X, most I have seen was 15-18 people, LCL service could need a boost  but bunching wont be avoided whatsoever, but Sheepshead Bay just needs the damn service. The BM3 sees cut after cut as VG8 stated, and the B4 is dismal at best even with full time Sheepshead Bay service. In my opinion, the B4 needs 15 minute weekend headways. With Sheepshead Bay expanding again, I have ridden many Orion VII CNG's with standing loads just along Emmons on a Saturday and once or twice a Sunday mid morning, Weekdays should be 10 mins peak and 15 off. It just pisses me off to see 4 B44 SBS buses, and 1 or 2 lcl's before a B4 rolls along. Now on the B2 and B31 being extended, I don't see where and how that would be beneficial, but that's my POV. That's my two cents on this for now.

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Look if ya want to go from Sheepshead Bay to Canarsie, its called the B44 to the B6 or B82, its that simple. As for the B36, B44, and B4. As far as the B36 is concerned that line has bunched like crazy since the beginning of freaking time. I do believe 4-5 minute headways should be in place until at least 10 AM if not 10:30, that could result in more bunching but at least there are more buses to handle the crowds. Or at least have additional runs to Sheepshead Bay Rd station from both directions. As for the B44-SBS, generally there are not too many people traveling south of Ave X, most I have seen was 15-18 people, LCL service could need a boost  but bunching wont be avoided whatsoever, but Sheepshead Bay just needs the damn service. The BM3 sees cut after cut as VG8 stated, and the B4 is dismal at best even with full time Sheepshead Bay service. In my opinion, the B4 needs 15 minute weekend headways. With Sheepshead Bay expanding again, I have ridden many Orion VII CNG's with standing loads just along Emmons on a Saturday and once or twice a Sunday mid morning, Weekdays should be 10 mins peak and 15 off. It just pisses me off to see 4 B44 SBS buses, and 1 or 2 lcl's before a B4 rolls along. Now on the B2 and B31 being extended, I don't see where and how that would be beneficial, but that's my POV. That's my two cents on this for now.

Are people supposed to walk from Flatlands as far as Seaview Avenue?

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B4 service needs to be beefed up and B36 needs more reliability. They also need a bus on Knapp Street and easier connections to neighboring communities like Canarsie. And no one shoud be penalized for requiring a third bus to make a trip. In short a lot can be done, but rove ding bus service that carries two passengers per bus is not the answer. There is a reason car services are thriving there. The MTA is not meeting the demand.

I can agree with connecting those two general areas (south brooklyn & eastern brooklyn) of the borough better w/ a bus route (the B82 is just too damn long); however, I don't agree with ending such a route in Sheepshead.... Instead, I'd look into connecting Canarsie w/ Coney Island (which can pass through Sheepshead along the way) & splitting up the B82 in the process..... Said route can perhaps shoot up Nostrand to Flatlands, en route to Canarsie or whatever, instead of running up Knapp, etc..... There is simply no way in hell you'd garner more ridership along Knapp over Nostrand, so that's the main reason why I bring that up.....

 

I'd agree with the MTA incompetently operating the B44 (as there are too many trips running down towards , but the B36 I believe is a victim of its circumstances.... The dam thing lags along the entire route (which is why the B74 is more patronized in CI; points east of stillwell); the elderly that utilizes the route down around trump village.... serving CIH (which is pretty close to trump village)... the traffic Av. Z tends to get at times..... the loads that embark & disembark @ Sheepshead on the brighton... and it's usage along nostrand, due back west..... The # of turns it makes doesn't help either....

 

 

 

I would suggest adding "shuttles" like on the B1 and run them between Sheepshead Bay and some where on the B4 before 4 Av (77/78 Sts doesn't need more service-right now it is served adequately except for service in the afternoon from Narrows/77th where FHHS student must wait over 20 minutes for a bus

I think the B4 should run to 86th/4th along 86th (instead of diverting off stillwell to bay ridge pkwy).... That would connect Sheepshead & Bay Ridge (well, the part of it that's far more sought after anyway)..... Of course the problem with that is, the immediate area is already saturated.....

 

The thing with the B4 is that, while the Bay Ridge pkwy portion is deserving of the current route's headways, everything at & east of 86th (N) is not - which is why folks patronize the B1 & tend to shun B4's (for the most part)... Ft Hamilton kids that take the B4 tend to not ride past Bay Pkwy anyway...... Perhaps more B16 trippers are needed b/w Ft Hamilton & the (N) or something....

 

None of the routes I proposed are fantasy routes, but ones where I believe there is real demand for. In the early 70s I did propose a few routes which I later realized had little potential demand, so I dropped them. Some that I proposed back in 1972, the MTA implemented independently over the next 30 years. It just took them much longer to see what was obvious to me.

Same here, damn a "fantasy" route.... That term has always been ambiguous to me in this community, and I try not to use it as much as I can... The way it's used in this community, you can't really tell if it's referring to some overly ridiculous route (which is not the case here), or some route that anyone can think up that would actually garner ridership due to an existing demand..... Either case, it's a shaming tactic, and an obvious one, since we are in no power to create routes... I suppose we should bar even musing about route suggestions on these boards, since we're not in MTA's OP sector.....

 

Aside from that, again, the current B82 is way too indirect b/w Canarsie & southern Brooklyn...... Have you have a route running b/w said areas/regions of the borough in a more direct manner, I also believe it would be well patronized - and it has f*** all to do w/ Sheepshead having few blacks, compared to Canarsie..... With that stupid logic, numerous routes wouldn't exist in our system; there'd be a bunch of B110 type routes all over the place....

 

But again, for a route in question here, you're gonna need more than (ending at) Sheepshead to have such a route pan out.....

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I can agree with connecting those two general areas (south brooklyn & eastern brooklyn) of the borough better w/ a bus route (the B82 is just too damn long); however, I don't agree with ending such a route in Sheepshead.... Instead, I'd look into connecting Canarsie w/ Coney Island (which can pass through Sheepshead along the way) & splitting up the B82 in the process..... Said route can perhaps shoot up Nostrand to Flatlands, en route to Canarsie or whatever, instead of running up Knapp, etc..... There is simply no way in hell you'd garner more ridership along Knapp over Nostrand, so that's the main reason why I bring that up.....

 

I'd agree with the MTA incompetently operating the B44 (as there are too many trips running down towards , but the B36 I believe is a victim of its circumstances.... The dam thing lags along the entire route (which is why the B74 is more patronized in CI; points east of stillwell); the elderly that utilizes the route down around trump village.... serving CIH (which is pretty close to trump village)... the traffic Av. Z tends to get at times..... the loads that embark & disembark @ Sheepshead on the brighton... and it's usage along nostrand, due back west..... The # of turns it makes doesn't help either....

 

 

 

 

I think the B4 should run to 86th/4th along 86th (instead of diverting off stillwell to bay ridge pkwy).... That would connect Sheepshead & Bay Ridge (well, the part of it that's far more sought after anyway)..... Of course the problem with that is, the immediate area is already saturated.....

 

The thing with the B4 is that, while the Bay Ridge pkwy portion is deserving of the current route's headways, everything at & east of 86th (N) is not - which is why folks patronize the B1 & tend to shun B4's (for the most part)... Ft Hamilton kids that take the B4 tend to not ride past Bay Pkwy anyway...... Perhaps more B16 trippers are needed b/w Ft Hamilton & the (N) or something....

 

 

Same here, damn a "fantasy" route.... That term has always been ambiguous to me in this community, and I try not to use it as much as I can... The way it's used in this community, you can't really tell if it's referring to some overly ridiculous route (which is not the case here), or some route that anyone can think up that would actually garner ridership due to an existing demand..... Either case, it's a shaming tactic, and an obvious one, since we are in no power to create routes... I suppose we should bar even musing about route suggestions on these boards, since we're not in MTA's OP sector.....

 

Aside from that, again, the current B82 is way too indirect b/w Canarsie & southern Brooklyn...... Have you have a route running b/w said areas/regions of the borough in a more direct manner, I also believe it would be well patronized - and it has f*** all to do w/ Sheepshead having few blacks, compared to Canarsie..... With that stupid logic, numerous routes wouldn't exist in our system; there'd be a bunch of B110 type routes all over the place....

 

But again, for a route in question here, you're gonna need more than (ending at) Sheepshead to have such a route pan out.....

The B5 and B50 never shoud have been combined. The reason for it was just to save operating costs on paper by avoiding two overlapping routes. But tat is te most efficient way to operate most routes since the middle of the route is usually the most patronized so it makes sense to provide more service there. But the MTA doesn't look at it that way. They only care how operating costs look on paper because they never relate operating costs to revenue. It's just dumb. I proposed splitting the B82 and combining pieces with the B2 and B31.

 

As far as Knapp Street, I proposed using Knapp Street as a route to connect Sheepshead Bay to Rockaway which is a three bus trip now at best. During rush hours to woud make sense for the entire Knapp St to connect to Sheepshead Bay Station.

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Is that like everyone's wish around here? The B82 should have never existed? I did have some ideas...

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Is that like everyone's wish around here? The B82 should have never existed? I did have some ideas...

The MTA just does what it wants no matter how dumb.

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The MTA just does what it wants no matter how dumb.

As long as its in "financial reason". Cut something where not too many people are using it. That is the saddest defense I've ever heard...

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What does race have anything to so with where people want to travel? I'm sorry but that comment is racist.

You're late to the party, but in any event, I already explained why earlier.  Demographics very much has a lot to do with where people travel.  Not just race, but ethnicity.  It's not racist.  Just a reality.  

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As long as its in "financial reason". Cut something where not too many people are using it. That is the saddest defense I've ever heard...

I don't understand your logic. You can't run service if no one is using it.

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I don't understand your logic. You can't run service if no one is using it.

That's not my logic. That's the defense they used when the B4 was cut from Sheepshead Bay and the B64 was cut from Coney Island...

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But it wasn't true when they said it. Both routes we're being utilized.

 

In fact when I showed them the numbers of passengers I saw for the B4 at Ocean Parkway and Neptune Avenue at 2:30 PM, 25 riders in one direction and 35 in the other, they cancelled their plan to eliminate all service east of Coney Island Hospital at all times and kept rush hour service, but started it at 1PM eastbound in Bay Ridge. They even told me they changed their minds after I showed them the buses were utilized. In 2013, they returned everything.

 

Meanwhile the B44 runs nearly empty south of Avenue X.

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Ft Hamilton kids that take the B4 tend to not ride past Bay Pkwy anyway...... Perhaps more B16 trippers are needed b/w Ft Hamilton & the (N) or something....

 

The :bus_bullet_b16:  trippers function are to get kids to 4 Av.It carries air past 86th and 4th.Most kids wouldn't take a :bus_bullet_b16:  to a :bus_bullet_b4:  because the :bus_bullet_b16: 's are so damn crowded...A lot of kids walk to 77th and Narrows for the :bus_bullet_b4: ...Start that bus at 83rd and Shore and less people will ride the :bus_bullet_b16: s and they will start taking the :bus_bullet_b4:

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Please dont put another Bus under the West End line, 86th Street is way to crowded.

The MTA wants to put a Select Bus Service there? How crazy is that?

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No they will never put a bus to duplicate the (D)  they aren't that stupid then again look at Manhattan (lower)


But it wasn't true when they said it. Both routes we're being utilized.

In fact when I showed them the numbers of passengers I saw for the B4 at Ocean Parkway and Neptune Avenue at 2:30 PM, 25 riders in one direction and 35 in the other, they cancelled their plan to eliminate all service east of Coney Island Hospital at all times and kept rush hour service, but started it at 1PM eastbound in Bay Ridge. They even told me they changed their minds after I showed them the buses were utilized. In 2013, they returned everything.

Meanwhile the B44 runs nearly empty south of Avenue X.

Why not swap that part of the B4 to B74? And break up this long route.

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They are considering an SBS route from Bay Ridge along 86 St to Bay Parkway to Avenue P then via the B82 to I am not sure where.

 

Coney Island is against any extension of the B74 because they don't trust the MTA that service will not deteriorate. Also, it doesn't make that much sense to connect the two neighborhoods because any extra transfers that route would permit, can already be made by taking the B36. Breaking the B4 at Sheepshead Bay Station, however I think is not a bad idea if the eastern end is extended up Knapp and down to Rockaway. We don't need more shuttle routes.

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Is that like everyone's wish around here? The B82 should have never existed? I did have some ideas...

Regardless of your ideas, it shouldn't have existed.... Rather than remain patient & kept the old B5, they combined it w/ the B50 to save money.... Now look at how well the current B82 usage is b/w CI & kings hwy. on the Brighton.....

 

The real problem is the B7 (particularly south of church, including south of flatbush - where it is supplemental with the B82), but for whatever the reason, they're keeping hope alive w/ that route......

 

Why not swap that part of the B4 to B74? And break up this long route.

The current B74 gets carries heavy because of how problematic the B36 is.....

Pay attention.

 

Meanwhile the B44 runs nearly empty south of Avenue X.

.....Breaking the B4 at Sheepshead Bay Station, however I think is not a bad idea if the eastern end is extended up Knapp and down to Rockaway......

I already expressed what I thought of that Sheepshead-Rockaways route you posted about on here some time ago.... Not really gonna comment on it any further....

 

As for the B4/36/44, well as long as you have the B4 being shunned in Sheepshead (east of nostrand), the B36 snatching all the Sheepshead ridership (due west), and folks making their way to the BM3 for direct manhattan access, you're gonna get B44's tanking at Av. X, because there's no one really riding B44's from points north, that far south..... Saying it another way, the current 44 terminal down along the service road is more or less, a convenient spot to have buses layover along.....

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I wouldn't agree that the B4 is shunned east of Nostrand. It would do better if it ran more often. It gets 20 to 25 per bus during the rush hour at 15 minute headways. About 6 per bus other times at 20 minute headways. The B44 SBS and local each get about 2 per bus

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Regardless of your ideas, it shouldn't have existed.... Rather than remain patient & kept the old B5, they combined it w/ the B50 to save money.... Now look at how well the current B82 usage is b/w CI & kings hwy. on the Brighton.....

 

The real problem is the B7 (particularly south of church, including south of flatbush - where it is supplemental with the B82), but for whatever the reason, they're keeping hope alive w/ that route......

 

The current B74 gets carries heavy because of how problematic the B36 is.....

Pay attention.

 

I already expressed what I thought of that Sheepshead-Rockaways route you posted about on here some time ago.... Not really gonna comment on it any further....

 

As for the B4/36/44, well as long as you have the B4 being shunned in Sheepshead (east of nostrand), the B36 snatching all the Sheepshead ridership (due west), and folks making their way to the BM3 for direct manhattan access, you're gonna get B44's tanking at Av. X, because there's no one really riding B44's from points north, that far south..... Saying it another way, the current 44 terminal down along the service road is more or less, a convenient spot to have buses layover along.....

I meant having ideas as far as breaking it up...

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