The MTA is Incompetently Operating the B44 and B36 Buses

[B35 via Church]

I meant having ideas as far as breaking it up...

It read differently, but now that you clarified yourself....

 

I wouldn't agree that the B4 is shunned east of Nostrand. It would do better if it ran more often. It gets 20 to 25 per bus during the rush hour at 15 minute headways. About 6 per bus other times at 20 minute headways. The B44 SBS and local each get about 2 per bus

Alright, what are we talking about here..... 20-25 riders b/w sheepshead subway & knapp/voorhies, or 20-25 people on the bus after having left the subway towards knapp/voorhies?

(which is not exactly the same thing)

 

I can't say the B4 east of the subway (the brighton) gets 80-100 riders an hour during the rush... During the PM at least, you'll get maybe 2 buses within the hour where riders pile up for the B4 in that direction (that 20-25 # you mention)... The rest of the trips, you're lucky to see 20 people total on those buses (because of course, B4's don't arrive at the subway from the west, empty).... What I'm getting at, is that usage east of the subway is not consistent, which could be for any number of reasons..... Sure ridership would increase if headways were decreased b/c it would likely/possibly mean that less patrons would rely on summoning cabs, or saying eff' it & just boarding BM3's.....

 

Anyone that knows any better would know that the B4 gets more usage than the B44 down in that part of Sheepshead.... The abysmal usage of the B44 south of Av X., you don't have to reinforce to me....

[BrooklynBus]

It read differently, but now that you clarified yourself....

 

 

Alright, what are we talking about here..... 20-25 riders b/w sheepshead subway & knapp/voorhies, or 20-25 people on the bus after having left the subway towards knapp/voorhies?

(which is not exactly the same thing)

 

I can't say the B4 east of the subway (the brighton) gets 80-100 riders an hour during the rush... During the PM at least, you'll get maybe 2 buses within the hour where riders pile up for the B4 in that direction (that 20-25 # you mention)... The rest of the trips, you're lucky to see 20 people total on those buses (because of course, B4's don't arrive at the subway from the west, empty).... What I'm getting at, is that usage east of the subway is not consistent, which could be for any number of reasons..... Sure ridership would increase if headways were decreased b/c it would likely/possibly mean that less patrons would rely on summoning cabs, or saying eff' it & just boarding BM3's.....

 

Anyone that knows any better would know that the B4 gets more usage than the B44 down in that part of Sheepshead.... The abysmal usage of the B44 south of Av X., you don't have to reinforce to me....

I'm saying 20 to 25 riders during rush hours between the Brighton Line and Knapp Street. In the AM, most get off at the Brighton Line, leaving maybe between three and six passengers remaining. At that point the bus starts filling up again and maybe gets up to 10 or 15 again. Three or four maybe would get off at the F train and maybe a couple at the N. I woudn't know how many are on the bus for the rest of the route of the route, but I woud guess it would be between six and 15, or perhaps much more. I really don't see it much in Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst. For all I know it could have all the seats taken in rush hour.

 

After the rush hour, the eastern end gets about six and its heavier in the center, with about 30 around 2 PM when some schools start to let out.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

I don't know why you wrote this story, as if your findings were so shocking.

 

 

If everything ran like the proverbial Swiss railroad, nobody would have anything to complain about — and lots of people would lose lots of income.

[Q43LTD]

It read differently, but now that you clarified yourself....

 

Well, this is what I had. The B82 broken up. And then...

B5-Coney Island (doesn't stop inside the loop, the B64 goes back in)-Kings Plaza or Brooklyn College. For BC, it will turn around as follows, left on Av H, drop off, stand, right on Nostrand, right on Flatbush, pick up

B50-Midwood-Gateway Center Mall (B83 cut back to Starrett City)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If everything ran like the proverbial Swiss railroad, nobody would have anything to complain about — and lots of people would lose lots of income.

Your comments are equally as shocking... 

[B35 via Church]

I'm saying 20 to 25 riders during rush hours between the Brighton Line and Knapp Street. In the AM, most get off at the Brighton Line, leaving maybe between three and six passengers remaining. At that point the bus starts filling up again and maybe gets up to 10 or 15 again. Three or four maybe would get off at the F train and maybe a couple at the N.

 

I woudn't know how many are on the bus for the rest of the route of the route, but I woud guess it would be between six and 15, or perhaps much more. I really don't see it much in Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst. For all I know it could have all the seats taken in rush hour.

 

After the rush hour, the eastern end gets about six and its heavier in the center, with about 30 around 2 PM when some schools start to let out.

That's what I'm getting at; I don't think that usage is as high during as 20-25 ppl. during rush hours..... B4's don't carry as many people anymore consistently east of Sheepshead subway.... the usage has waned (especially since the MTA pulled that shit of having ended buses @ CIH)..... If you see a decent sized crowd like what you're describing waiting for the B4 @ the subway (on the brighton), it's more often than not, due to a late bus (which on that route, is rather common)....

 

The rest of the B4 route (Bay Ridge & Bensonhurst), I wasn't asking you about..... It's certainly more than 15, but the problem is, it's too sporadic & spread out on top of it.... For the most part, the only thing keeping the B4 afloat these days are FHHS kids themselves, Sheepshead riders east of the brighton line (even though those #'s are waning), and those coming off the that reside around/along Bay Ridge pkwy (and it's not that many that one might think it would be, for as long an street bay ridge pkwy is)...... That's basically it.

 

* side note, or, case in point.... Ride a WB B4 during off peak hours & you will see just how empty buses get after it hits 5th.... Not even the subway along 4th av, but at 5th..... That is one thing I don't understand about the (off peak) B4.... To me, out of all the SW Brooklyn routes, the B4 takes the cake.... Even the B64 has a steady stream of riders along Bath than the B4 does along a (much longer) Bay Ridge pkwy.... If you take a look at the B4's usage b/w Bay Pkwy & CIH, you'll come to find that the vast majority (I'm talking in like the 1st percentile of those riders...lol) are coming off xfers; very few "unique" riders along that stretch - even though there are those apartments over there on Av Z b/w Shell & Ocean Pkwy.....

 

Well, this is what I had. The B82 broken up. And then...

B5-Coney Island (doesn't stop inside the loop, the B64 goes back in)-Kings Plaza or Brooklyn College. For BC, it will turn around as follows, left on Av H, drop off, stand, right on Nostrand, right on Flatbush, pick up

B50-Midwood-Gateway Center Mall (B83 cut back to Starrett City)

I know you & shortline advocated for a short form of the B82 running to Gateway....

 

Your B5.... just one question.

To kings plaza, how would you have routed it?

[Q43LTD]

That's what I'm getting at; I don't think that usage is as high during as 20-25 ppl. during rush hours..... B4's don't carry as many people anymore consistently east of Sheepshead subway.... the usage has waned (especially since the MTA pulled that shit of having ended buses @ CIH)..... If you see a decent sized crowd like what you're describing waiting for the B4 @ the subway (on the brighton), it's more often than not, due to a late bus (which on that route, is rather common)....

 

The rest of the B4 route (Bay Ridge & Bensonhurst), I wasn't asking you about..... It's certainly more than 15, but the problem is, it's too sporadic & spread out on top of it.... For the most part, the only thing keeping the B4 afloat these days are FHHS kids themselves, Sheepshead riders east of the brighton line (even though those #'s are waning), and those coming off the that reside around/along Bay Ridge pkwy (and it's not that many that one might think it would be, for as long an street bay ridge pkwy is)...... That's basically it.

 

* side note, or, case in point.... Ride a WB B4 during off peak hours & you will see just how empty buses get after it hits 5th.... Not even the subway along 4th av, but at 5th..... That is one thing I don't understand about the (off peak) B4.... To me, out of all the SW Brooklyn routes, the B4 takes the cake.... Even the B64 has a steady stream of riders along Bath than the B4 does along a (much longer) Bay Ridge pkwy.... If you take a look at the B4's usage b/w Bay Pkwy & CIH, you'll come to find that the vast majority (I'm talking in like the 1st percentile of those riders...lol) are coming off xfers; very few "unique" riders along that stretch - even though there are those apartments over there on Av Z b/w Shell & Ocean Pkwy.....

 

I know you & shortline advocated for a short form of the B82 running to Gateway....

 

Your B5.... just one question.

To kings plaza, how would you have routed it?

Straight down Flatbush, U-turn then share a stop with the B2. Since its the least frequent of the 5 routes that terminate there...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's what I'm getting at; I don't think that usage is as high during as 20-25 ppl. during rush hours..... B4's don't carry as many people anymore consistently east of Sheepshead subway.... the usage has waned (especially since the MTA pulled that shit of having ended buses @ CIH)..... If you see a decent sized crowd like what you're describing waiting for the B4 @ the subway (on the brighton), it's more often than not, due to a late bus (which on that route, is rather common)....

 

The rest of the B4 route (Bay Ridge & Bensonhurst), I wasn't asking you about..... It's certainly more than 15, but the problem is, it's too sporadic & spread out on top of it.... For the most part, the only thing keeping the B4 afloat these days are FHHS kids themselves, Sheepshead riders east of the brighton line (even though those #'s are waning), and those coming off the that reside around/along Bay Ridge pkwy (and it's not that many that one might think it would be, for as long an street bay ridge pkwy is)...... That's basically it.

 

* side note, or, case in point.... Ride a WB B4 during off peak hours & you will see just how empty buses get after it hits 5th.... Not even the subway along 4th av, but at 5th..... That is one thing I don't understand about the (off peak) B4.... To me, out of all the SW Brooklyn routes, the B4 takes the cake.... Even the B64 has a steady stream of riders along Bath than the B4 does along a (much longer) Bay Ridge pkwy.... If you take a look at the B4's usage b/w Bay Pkwy & CIH, you'll come to find that the vast majority (I'm talking in like the 1st percentile of those riders...lol) are coming off xfers; very few "unique" riders along that stretch - even though there are those apartments over there on Av Z b/w Shell & Ocean Pkwy.....

 

Your assessment of the B4 is off to say the least.  The demographics that the B4 serves is changing, and therefore there is more ridership than you think at least from my personal observations.  The Asian population (more specifically the Chinese population) in historically White neighborhoods is growing significantly.  I see Asians getting on at stops that were either lightly used or not used much at all along Bay Ridge Parkway from Bensonhurst and into Dyker Heights.  You also have some Central Americans (i.e. Mexicans) using the B4 now near New Utrecht Avenue.  Also, I've been surprised with some of the usage east of the Sheepshead Bay train station.  I'm not sure what is going in that case, but not everyone gets off at the train station.  Many stay on well past that point.  I don't get off until the last stop usually there at Narrows Avenue to get the X27, so I get to see the ridership patterns for quite a while.

[BrooklynBus]

Here is Part 2:

 

 

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/05/mta-incompetently-operating-b44-b36-part-2-2/

[petabread]

Here is Part 2:

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/05/mta-incompetently-operating-b44-b36-part-2-2/

I just read part 2, interesting, I don't think a 40ft holds 90+ people. I'm going to flat out say your opinion is riddled with inaccuracies and bad surveying technique. You mentioned in part one that b44 shouldn't be delayed yet there is a ton of construction on nostrand, can't remember cross streets. You should know that if any cars or trucks decides to stop it's over, nothing is passing. The B36, I once was waiting for the b44 to go to knapp, and people were complaining about not enough service after waiting 5 mins for a bus, one came shortly after. If you're saying waiting for a bus 31 mins is excessive, maybe something happened. Is it a daily occurrence? I don't believe so.

 

 

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[NYSubwayBuff]

In one of the comments somebody mentioned a petition. If you want bus service to sheepshead bay or kingsborough ( the former I agree with not the latter) gain enough signatures that you want B44 (whether local if SBS) to serve sheepshead bay because the B36 can't handle do that I believe many people would agree with you, I would be one of the first to sign it since I use the B36 every morning and at 6:45 when I get to my stop on Avenue Z either no one stops for me or the bus that stops is overcrowded I have ended ul taking the green cabs once in a while if the weather was bad

 

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[BrooklynBus]

According to residents it is a daily occurrence for many buses to bunch. You can always check BusTime from time to time to check bunching and reliability yourself.

 

I counted 52 standees. If every seat was filled, there are 44 of them in an RTS, that would be 96. Yes, buses can hold that many if passengers enter through both doors. If only the front door is used, there is always some place in the back for about then more. The low floor buses probably hold maybe 5 or 10 fewer passengers.

 

If there is construction preventing the B44 from operating properly, it needs to be addressed. What would be the excuse for the B36? Or is there always some type of excuse? For the M15 it is the Second Avenue Subway. Whatever the excuses are, the results are the same, the passengers are the ones that suffer.

[B35 via Church]

Your assessment of the B4 is off to say the least.  The demographics that the B4 serves is changing, and therefore there is more ridership than you think at least from my personal observations.  The Asian population (more specifically the Chinese population) in historically White neighborhoods is growing significantly.  I see Asians getting on at stops that were either lightly used or not used much at all along Bay Ridge Parkway from Bensonhurst and into Dyker Heights.  You also have some Central Americans (i.e. Mexicans) using the B4 now near New Utrecht Avenue.  

 

Also, I've been surprised with some of the usage east of the Sheepshead Bay train station.  I'm not sure what is going in that case, but not everyone gets off at the train station.  Many stay on well past that point.  I don't get off until the last stop usually there at Narrows Avenue to get the X27, so I get to see the ridership patterns for quite a while.

Where do I begin with this.... It's like you read what you want to read & then make points accordingly.... You did the same thing in the Bus O/T thread recently w/ AEMoreira's shrug-worthy suggestion.....

 

Despite that I'd say you're grossly exaggerating the route's ridership, I don't know why you're mentioning demographics as it pertained to my post, as I've said absolutely nothing about that in my last post for it to be "off"... It's one thing to ask if I'm basing my assessment off some demographic - it is quite another to say that I'm off on something I never even brought up.....

 

But hell, since you bring up demographics:

 

- You're making it seem like Asians done took over the B4 & now it's this thriving route or something.... Not the case; it's not there yet....

- I already know about the Asians that take the B4 on the western half of the route - They are included in the folks coming off the (and the also, which I didn't mention, because I didn't mention any demographic to begin with) to catch the B4 (or vice versa)..... They are included in the folks that generally don't ride past (meaning east of) Bay Pkwy......

 

Asians dominate more on the B1, B16, B70, and that B9..... They're starting to grow in number on the B4, B8, and B63 down in that part of Brooklyn... But they do not take up as much of the route's (B4) ridership as it looks as if you're conveying here... They just don't.....

 

- Those Hispanics that take the B4 are small in number (of which are not school kids, I'm talking about), compared to the overall ridership of he route (and really, they're the ones coming off xfers, but that's neither here nor there)... Regardless, I specifically said "for the most part", not "here is a full breakdown of the riderbases from start to finish"......

 

- The east of Sheepshead subway portion of the B4...Folks staying on past the subway from the east is true, what you're commenting against with that is BrooklynBus' point; about how 20-25 ppl. take it east of sheepshead & that only 3-6 ppl. remain on in the AM commute, before taking on more pax @ the subway itself..... From Voorhies/Knapp, people don't start boarding like that up until it hits Emmons (not to say that no one gets on at knapp/shore pkwy serv. rd south, but oddly enough, more ppl seem to take 44's than 4's at that stop, for w/e reason)...

 

 

The main point to be taken from all this is that, ever since the MTA f***ed with the B4, it has lost ridership (quite significantly at that) in that part of Sheepshead/Plumb Beach/whatever..... Way I see it, more of those folks on that end of the route better start patronizing (taking) the B4, because with the way things are going now w/ this grand push for SBS system-wide, BrooklynBus might be on to something/might be right with that whole B44 to Sheepshead subway bit - Which'll have more people taking cabs (and/or express buses) down there, than they do now.....

[B35 via Church]

B44 to KCC is just plain silly; don't know how else to put it (let's remove the 49 from KCC & send that to Stillwell while we're at it).... B44 to Sheepshead subway (although I don't agree it should happen) makes more sense than that.... Thing is, have that happen, and (some of) the B36's problems would be rectified - except it would come at the expense of service cuts on the B36... Guaranteed.... Less 36's on the road b/w sheepshead subway & CI - W 37th st to make way for the B44 to the subway... Because no way would they have 44's running to the subway & 36's remaining running to Av U/Nostrand.....

 

The question is, to what extent are (av Z, east of the subway & nostrand) riders PO'd with the B36? Enough to not have to deal with the route (or taking cabs) & take 44's instead..... Boy, I can see the backlash from 44 riders further up the route now - I mean, look at how they started complaining about not having a corresponding SBS "station" for the B9 xfer (lemme just say, Av L, screw it)..... Look how that turned out - New Av L station, how about that.... Now they'll be complaining about longer waits for SBS buses

[BrooklynBus]

B44 to KCC is just plain silly; don't know how else to put it (let's remove the 49 from KCC & send that to Stillwell while we're at it).... B44 to Sheepshead subway (although I don't agree it should happen) makes more sense than that.... Thing is, have that happen, and (some of) the B36's problems would be rectified - except it would come at the expense of service cuts on the B36... Guaranteed.... Less 36's on the road b/w sheepshead subway & CI - W 37th st to make way for the B44 to the subway... Because no way would they have 44's running to the subway & 36's remaining running to Av U/Nostrand.....

 

The question is, to what extent are (av Z, east of the subway & nostrand) riders PO'd with the B36? Enough to not have to deal with the route (or taking cabs) & take 44's instead..... Boy, I can see the backlash from 44 riders further up the route now - I mean, look at how they started complaining about not having a corresponding SBS "station" for the B9 xfer (lemme just say, Av L, screw it)..... Look how that turned out - New Av L station, how about that.... Now they'll be complaining about longer waits for SBS buses

First of all, how do you know the B4 lost ridership? To me it looks like it might have gained a bit since being moved back to Neptune.

 

Second, the B44 to Kingsorough during school hours makes perfect sense. Instead of buses carrying an average of 2 people outbound, it woud get between 30 and 60. Many traveling from Crown Heights and Flatbush would switch from the B49 because it would be like 15 minutes quicker.

 

Third, I don't agree if the the SBS ran to Sheepshead Bay Station that B36 headways would be much affected because the SBS would only make one more stop at Bedford.

 

There were few complaints when Avenue L was added which was needed.

[B35 via Church]

First of all, how do you know the B4 lost ridership? To me it looks like it might have gained a bit since being moved back to Neptune.

 

Second, the B44 to Kingsorough during school hours makes perfect sense. Instead of buses carrying an average of 2 people outbound, it woud get between 30 and 60. Many traveling from Crown Heights and Flatbush would switch from the B49 because it would be like 15 minutes quicker.

 

Third, I don't agree if the the SBS ran to Sheepshead Bay Station that B36 headways would be much affected because the SBS would only make one more stop at Bedford.

 

There were few complaints when Avenue L was added which was needed.

- I'm not answering that question, because it's a mischaracterization of my comment (at the very least, because I also think it was disingenuous for you to state the question that way).... I was very specific as to what part of the B4 I was talking about.....

 

- Sure the B44 to KCC makes perfect sense to you, but you're supposed to be against super routes.....

Running it to Sheepshead subway would be enough, running it to KCC is overkill....

Running it to Sheepshead subway alone would have it averaging well over 2 people.....

 

- Yeah right, like there aren't many B44 riders from the south xferring to B36's... It doesn't matter if it's one (other) stop before the subway, they wouldn't retain duplication like that; 36 the local & 44 the SBS both towards the subway from Av U/nostrand (you don't see what's going on w/ the B44 local, for example... if that were the case, B44 local service would have never been trimmed).... They would gladly sacrifice w/e "unique" riders on the 36 that are not xferring off the (current) 44 & in so many words, tell them to walk to the nearest SBS stop (whether that be at Av X/nostrand or Av Z/bedford)..... Which is another reason I'm not all that fond of having 44's go to the subway....

 

Whatever the net gain in mileage on that is (between Sheepshead subway & Av U/Nostrand), they wouldn't stop at those savings alone w/ the 36.... They're looking to take buses off the road; you out of anyone else on here (should) realize that.... Or would that no longer apply, since it's your B44 to Sheepshead subway idea......

 

- There were enough complaints to get that SBS station added..... I'm not questioning the necessity of it.

 

I just read part 2, interesting, I don't think a 40ft holds 90+ people. I'm going to flat out say your opinion is riddled with inaccuracies and bad surveying technique. You mentioned in part one that b44 shouldn't be delayed yet there is a ton of construction on nostrand, can't remember cross streets. You should know that if any cars or trucks decides to stop it's over, nothing is passing. The B36, I once was waiting for the b44 to go to knapp, and people were complaining about not enough service after waiting 5 mins for a bus, one came shortly after. If you're saying waiting for a bus 31 mins is excessive, maybe something happened. Is it a daily occurrence? I don't believe so.

All I'm gonna say about that is, it isn't the first time someone's made that assessment..... Andrew JC & Terrapin Station immediately come to mind.... Quite sure there's a few others on SC.....

[petabread]

Right now, I don't see people transferring from the b44 to the b36 so I don't believe the ridership will change unless you cut b36 service to nostrand. I'm going to say this but you miscounted. No way 90+ people on the bus. It's very hard to squeeze 30 people, even 40 but 50 is impossible. I'm calling bs on your numbers. I don't doubt the high ridership, that's why the schedule is the way it is, and looking at bustime this morning, sure there is a bunching but I have seen far worse bunching. At 4 mins apart after ocean ave, sure buses will bunch. I remember now taking it sometime last year and remember how miserable ave z was with traffic lights and double parked school buses and how it was a traffic nightmare, maybe that contributes to some of the bunching.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BrooklynBus]

Whatever the cause of bunching, there is no excuse for two buses leaving the terminal at the same time in service already bunched, unless you have like a hundred people waiting at the stop.

 

And yes buses can fit that many people although in most cases the back of the bus will be empty. And how do I know? Because when I was about 15 and taking the B49 to Manhattan Beach from Church Avenue, there were about 150 passengers waiting for the bus. An empty bus came and filled up. I didn't even try to get on because there was no line but a mob scene. So I decided to wait for the next bus. At the time all buses were New Look buses with about 44 seats. about 30 percent of the assengers were kids under 13 and any assengers were boarding with beach chairs and coolers. I counted every single passenger who boarded the bus one by one. Do you know how many got on. It was 110 passengers! Some of the very little kids sat on their parents laps and there was all that beach gear people carried back then in the 1960s. I estimate if everyone had been an adult, you still could nearly get 100 people aboard. But that means passengers in both stairwells and in front of the white line and into the front stairwell. It definitely can be done but rarely actually happens. So 92 is quite possible.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Where do I begin with this.... It's like you read what you want to read & then make points accordingly.... You did the same thing in the Bus O/T thread recently w/ AEMoreira's shrug-worthy suggestion.....

 

Despite that I'd say you're grossly exaggerating the route's ridership, I don't know why you're mentioning demographics as it pertained to my post, as I've said absolutely nothing about that in my last post for it to be "off"... It's one thing to ask if I'm basing my assessment off some demographic - it is quite another to say that I'm off on something I never even brought up.....

 

But hell, since you bring up demographics:

 

- You're making it seem like Asians done took over the B4 & now it's this thriving route or something.... Not the case; it's not there yet....

- I already know about the Asians that take the B4 on the western half of the route - They are included in the folks coming off the (and the also, which I didn't mention, because I didn't mention any demographic to begin with) to catch the B4 (or vice versa)..... They are included in the folks that generally don't ride past (meaning east of) Bay Pkwy......

 

Asians dominate more on the B1, B16, B70, and that B9..... They're starting to grow in number on the B4, B8, and B63 down in that part of Brooklyn... But they do not take up as much of the route's (B4) ridership as it looks as if you're conveying here... They just don't.....

 

- Those Hispanics that take the B4 are small in number (of which are not school kids, I'm talking about), compared to the overall ridership of he route (and really, they're the ones coming off xfers, but that's neither here nor there)... Regardless, I specifically said "for the most part", not "here is a full breakdown of the riderbases from start to finish"......

 

- The east of Sheepshead subway portion of the B4...Folks staying on past the subway from the east is true, what you're commenting against with that is BrooklynBus' point; about how 20-25 ppl. take it east of sheepshead & that only 3-6 ppl. remain on in the AM commute, before taking on more pax @ the subway itself..... From Voorhies/Knapp, people don't start boarding like that up until it hits Emmons (not to say that no one gets on at knapp/shore pkwy serv. rd south, but oddly enough, more ppl seem to take 44's than 4's at that stop, for w/e reason)...

 

 

The main point to be taken from all this is that, ever since the MTA f***ed with the B4, it has lost ridership (quite significantly at that) in that part of Sheepshead/Plumb Beach/whatever..... Way I see it, more of those folks on that end of the route better start patronizing (taking) the B4, because with the way things are going now w/ this grand push for SBS system-wide, BrooklynBus might be on to something/might be right with that whole B44 to Sheepshead subway bit - Which'll have more people taking cabs (and/or express buses) down there, than they do now.....

My point is that the demographics are changing down there, and despite the B4 losing ridership due to the cuts, ridership on the B4 is relatively healthy compared to what it was back in the day. When I talk about this route, I'm looking at it from what it was all the way back in the 90's when the headways were a bit better, but buses still came whenever they wanted, which was one reason that the line suffered.  You don't need to bring up demographics.  I'm bringing it up because the changing demographics there may change the frequency of the B4. Jackie Gleason does a better job than Ulmer Park, but they still play games here and there.  You're right... The main demographic on the B4 is still white, but with the way Chinatown is being eaten alive by the high rents, Bensonhurst is quickly becoming a new Chinatown.  That area is going to look like what parts of Southeast Brooklyn have become.... Heavily Eastern European (i.e. Russian), various types of Jews, Asians and some Latinos.  The thing about the aforementioned groups is that many of them are new arrivals that will rely upon the local bus, and others are just accustomed to using public transportation based on the areas that they lived in previously.  Now of course I don't see the B4 turning into a B44 super route anytime soon, but if Jackie Gleason provides consistent service, ridership on that line will grow gradually.  That bus makes stops now that it would just fly by years ago because no one would ever get on.  You don't have hoards of people at those stops, but two or three or four as opposed to none is still growth.

[B35 via Church]

My point is that the demographics are changing down there, and despite the B4 losing ridership due to the cuts, ridership on the B4 is relatively healthy compared to what it was back in the day. When I talk about this route, I'm looking at it from what it was all the way back in the 90's when the headways were a bit better, but buses still came whenever they wanted, which was one reason that the line suffered.  You don't need to bring up demographics.  I'm bringing it up because the changing demographics there may change the frequency of the B4. Jackie Gleason does a better job than Ulmer Park, but they still play games here and there.  You're right... The main demographic on the B4 is still white, but with the way Chinatown is being eaten alive by the high rents, Bensonhurst is quickly becoming a new Chinatown.  That area is going to look like what parts of Southeast Brooklyn have become.... Heavily Eastern European (i.e. Russian), various types of Jews, Asians and some Latinos.  The thing about the aforementioned groups is that many of them are new arrivals that will rely upon the local bus, and others are just accustomed to using public transportation based on the areas that they lived in previously.  Now of course I don't see the B4 turning into a B44 super route anytime soon, but if Jackie Gleason provides consistent service, ridership on that line will grow gradually.  That bus makes stops now that it would just fly by years ago because no one would ever get on.  You don't have hoards of people at those stops, but two or three or four as opposed to none is still growth.

Your point was that I was "off" in my assessment, then you went into a diatribe about the changing demographics... Basically refuting nothing.

 

As far as this other point you're now bringing up about the B4 under UP vs it under JG... no question, usage was far worse then, than what it is now.... The Bay Ridge Pkwy. folks started gradually using the route (yeah, this was before the Asians moved down there); under UP, I'd say the B4 was ignored - much like local buses are in suburban areas..... Whether they knew/realized or cared that the route was operating out of another depot, who knows... One thing I will go as far as to say is, it helped spur an increase in folks taking ®'s to 77th too, over (more folks) being bothered walking from the ... That much, I do remember.... There were not near as many ppl. waiting for B4's along 4th for eastward service than there is now......

[NYSubwayBuff]

Lol y'all might think it's funny but I was young back then. I would beg who ever wouldt take the bus with me ( I was really young) to take the B4 over the B36 between Z and coney island hospital to ride the "small buses" when the B4 went over to JG

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your point was that I was "off" in my assessment, then you went into a diatribe about the changing demographics... Basically refuting nothing.

 

As far as this other point you're now bringing up about the B4 under UP vs it under JG... no question, usage was far worse then, than what it is now.... The Bay Ridge Pkwy. folks started gradually using the route (yeah, this was before the Asians moved down there); under UP, I'd say the B4 was ignored - much like local buses are in suburban areas..... Whether they knew/realized or cared that the route was operating out of another depot, who knows... One thing I will go as far as to say is, it helped spur an increase in folks taking ®'s to 77th too, over (more folks) being bothered walking from the ... That much, I do remember.... There were not near as many ppl. waiting for B4's along 4th for eastward service than there is now......

My point was that the needs of the route will change due to the changing demographics and that you shouldn't be surprised by that since I know how the route was some 20 years ago versus now.  More people would've used the B4 back when it was Ulmer Park but didn't because service was just deplorable.  The reliability was really bad.  I can remember numerous times waiting 45 minutes for one B4, and on occasion, having two come together, though that was a rarity.  Most folks had the opinion that the B4 was ignored by Ulmer Park, meaning that anytime they needed a driver, they would just take that driver off of the B4 and put him/her somewhere else.

 

This article should shed some light on what I was discussing:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/asian-boom-brooklyn-n-lline-neighborhoods-brooklyn-census-data-shows-article-1.955293

[B35 via Church]

My point was that the needs of the route will change due to the changing demographics and that you shouldn't be surprised by that since I know how the route was some 20 years ago versus now.  More people would've used the B4 back when it was Ulmer Park but didn't because service was just deplorable.  The reliability was really bad.  I can remember numerous times waiting 45 minutes for one B4, and on occasion, having two come together, though that was a rarity.  Most folks had the opinion that the B4 was ignored by Ulmer Park, meaning that anytime they needed a driver, they would just take that driver off of the B4 and put him/her somewhere else.

 

This article should shed some light on what I was discussing:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/asian-boom-brooklyn-n-lline-neighborhoods-brooklyn-census-data-shows-article-1.955293

Lol @ that first sentence; I shouldn't be surprised by the changing demographics - since YOU know how the route was some 20 years ago.... ...

 

It's evident that you want to me to ignore how you started off your original reply to my B4 assessment, but Listen - No one's disagreeing with the changing demographics in SW Brooklyn.... I mean, thanks for the link & all, but I've been aware of the Asian growth in SW Brooklyn..... I'll add something else too (and no one likes to talk about this), but when all those Italians that lived in that part of Brooklyn went & ran off to SI & LI (for whatever reasons), that's when (more) Asians started making their push past Sunset Park & down on into Dyker Hgts. & Bensonhurst.... Smart move on their part.

 

AS for the B4 under UP, yeah, I remember the long waits too... and worse than that, buses were pretty goddam empty along the Bay Ridge Pkwy portion, even during the rush... Utterly pathetic....

 

 

Lol y'all might think it's funny but I was young back then. I would beg who ever wouldt take the bus with me ( I was really young) to take the B4 over the B36 between Z and coney island hospital to ride the "small buses" when the B4 went over to JG Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Childhood memories I had of taking the B35 (back in the days of the ole "fishbowls") to the B67.... Good times.

 

At least the B4 under JG saw drastic improvement.... Although the B67's been under JG for the longest, now look what that route's turn into.... A shell of its former self, all because the B69 a couple blocks over then, stayed carrying air along PPW....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Lol @ that first sentence; I shouldn't be surprised by the changing demographics - since YOU know how the route was some 20 years ago.... ...

 

It's evident that you want to me to ignore how you started off your original reply to my B4 assessment, but Listen - No one's disagreeing with the changing demographics in SW Brooklyn.... I mean, thanks for the link & all, but I've been aware of the Asian growth in SW Brooklyn..... I'll add something else too (and no one likes to talk about this), but when all those Italians that lived in that part of Brooklyn went & ran off to SI & LI (for whatever reasons), that's when (more) Asians started making their push past Sunset Park & down on into Dyker Hgts. & Bensonhurst.... Smart move on their part.

 

AS for the B4 under UP, yeah, I remember the long waits too... and worse than that, buses were pretty goddam empty along the Bay Ridge Pkwy portion, even during the rush... Utterly pathetic....

Right so then that's the whole point... If you're aware of the Asian growth in South West Brooklyn, then why would you deny how many Asians are now using the B4?  Granted their usage currently isn't such that the will be running to add more service, but eventually that may change.  As for why Italians left, it's very simple.  Bensonhurst overall has always been (until recently) a nice middle class neighborhood that had strong Italian roots because Italian-Americans at that time, as a group were still working their way up the immigration ladder so to speak.  Italians left to the suburbs because they wanted more space.  That's precisely why we left Brooklyn and moved to Staten Island.  South Brooklyn was going through changes (new immigrants coming in) and the old time Brooklynites started moving out en masse.  All of my friends that I grew up with in South Brooklyn have moved elsewhere in the city or out of the city entirely to Westchester, New Jersey or more expensive parts of the city. Larger families and better financial situations made it such that Italian-Americans could move out of their cramped apartments and/or houses in Bensonhurst to bigger and better spaces.  The ones that wanted to stay in Southwest Brooklyn did, and moved to Dkyer Heights which offers suburban style living and bigger houses, but Dyker Heights is also more pricier than Bensonhurst.  Some have also moved to Bay Ridge, where areas near or along Shore Rd offer bigger houses, but those areas are also pricey as well.  Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights as far I'm concerned represent the last true bastion of the old school South Brooklyn that I grew up in.  Sheepshead Bay is also on the decline (and has been for years), but I suspect that there are some businesses that are creating ridership on the B4 nonetheless, such as that new school by Knapp Street.  As for the Chinese moving to Bensonhurst, they came because of the subway setup and cheap rents compared to Manhattan and other places where the rents are skyrocketing. They can't all settle in Sunset Park... I have to say that it pains me going through Bensonhurst now, as the area is on the decline.  All of the old school Italian-American businesses are shuttering, as there aren't enough Italian-Americans there to support the business.  86th street is quickly becoming filthy with garbage all over the place and such.  There are still some Italian-Americans left there, but their presence continues to dwindle.

[BrooklynBus]

It's not only the Italian-Americans. As soon as someone can afford to move out of the city they do, whether it's because they want better public schools and can't afford the private ones, or if it's the often delayed and crowded transportation system they don't want to put up with anymore. The ones who come and stay are newly arrived immigrants and the very rich to whom money doesn't matter. When someone retires, and their children have moved out, why not move out too and join them? There is little to stay here for especially if you are on the outskirts of the city with long trips to the major cultural centers.

 

Even Russian immigrants who have been here for only 30 years are already moving out for greener pastures in the suburbs. Of course not everyone leaves and some decide to stick it out.

 

If city was made more attractive or the middle class with better public schools, more affordable housing and a transportation system that served everyone well, the middle class woudn't be looking to get out. It's no coincidence that many young families who do choose to live in New York, choose the areas that are only 15 to 30 minutes from Manhattan, not those that are 75 to 90 minutes away.