The MTA is Incompetently Operating the B44 and B36 Buses

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's not only the Italian-Americans. As soon as someone can afford to move out of the city they do, whether it's because they want better public schools and can't afford the private ones, or if it's the often delayed and crowded transportation system they don't want to put up with anymore. The ones who come and stay are newly arrived immigrants and the very rich to whom money doesn't matter. When someone retires, and their children have moved out, why not move out too and join them? There is little to stay here for especially if you are on the outskirts of the city with long trips to the major cultural centers.

 

Even Russian immigrants who have been here for only 30 years are already moving out for greener pastures in the suburbs. Of course not everyone leaves and some decide to stick it out.

 

If city was made more attractive or the middle class with better public schools, more affordable housing and a transportation system that served everyone well, the middle class woudn't be looking to get out. It's no coincidence that many young families who do choose to live in New York, choose the areas that are only 15 to 30 minutes from Manhattan, not those that are 75 to 90 minutes away.

You make some good points... I work with a young Russian translator who works in the medical field full time doing research, and once he was offered a lucrative position, he left New York and went and purchased a house.  He could've stayed here, as he was living on the Upper East Side and wasn't hurting for money, but he wanted something different.  I will say that not everyone is running to the suburbs.  The younger folks like myself are staying in the city or somewhere close to it.  Some folks don't want the city life in Manhattan, but they don't quite want the suburbs either, but rather a mix of the two.  Quite frankly areas like Sheepshead Bay need a rebirth.  The new housing is overpriced, and the transportation sucks in the area.  It's hard to justify the prices with the lack of life that the community currently lacks.

[realizm]

It's not only the Italian-Americans. As soon as someone can afford to move out of the city they do, whether it's because they want better public schools and can't afford the private ones, or if it's the often delayed and crowded transportation system they don't want to put up with anymore. The ones who come and stay are newly arrived immigrants and the very rich to whom money doesn't matter. When someone retires, and their children have moved out, why not move out too and join them? There is little to stay here for especially if you are on the outskirts of the city with long trips to the major cultural centers.

 

Theres another element to the trend  ... New York real estate rates are so high that as for lower income class folks they cannot afford living in New York over a period of time anymore. So they begin to go broke, fearing evictions. Because they cant afford the skyrocketing rents out of control, they have no other alternative but to move out of New York into other rural states with a lower cost of living. Gotta love the awesome concept called gentrification and real estate broker greed... Let me throw in deadbeat Albany assemblymen who drag their damn feet in regards to this very real problem and not actually do something about bringing forth initiatives towards rent control options to the table.

 

So therefore many times people dont necessarily move out of NYC out of convenience or because they want to, its because they are practically forced to. Its not hard to move out of state, the real challenge is surviving the costs of living within the state!

 

 

I mean, thanks for the link & all, but I've been aware of the Asian growth in SW Brooklyn..... I'll add something else too (and no one likes to talk about this), but when all those Italians that lived in that part of Brooklyn went & ran off to SI & LI (for whatever reasons), that's when (more) Asians started making their push past Sunset Park & down on into Dyker Hgts. & Bensonhurst.... Smart move on their part.

Indeed. Thats exactly what happened. I lived it from the very beginnings living in South Brooklyn on and off since birth.

[BrooklynBus]

@realizm

 

You add a very valid point. The question to ask is if we see so clearly what is happening, where are our elected officials?

[B35 via Church]

Right so then that's the whole point... If you're aware of the Asian growth in South West Brooklyn, then why would you deny how many Asians are now using the B4?  Granted their usage currently isn't such that the will be running to add more service, but eventually that may change. 

Still making things up as you go along, I see.....

 

No Asian growth was denied on my end; more reading & believing what you want to believe....

What I'm not agreeing with, is how many Asians YOU came on here claiming that rode the route... Big difference.

 

.....As for the Chinese moving to Bensonhurst, they came because of the subway setup and cheap rents compared to Manhattan and other places where the rents are skyrocketing. They can't all settle in Sunset Park...

 

I have to say that it pains me going through Bensonhurst now, as the area is on the decline.  All of the old school Italian-American businesses are shuttering, as there aren't enough Italian-Americans there to support the business.  86th street is quickly becoming filthy with garbage all over the place and such.  There are still some Italian-Americans left there, but their presence continues to dwindle.

Obviously they can't all settle in sunset park, due to Hispanics still residing in a lot of that neighborhood..... Not to mention the Asians that (still) live there are in the same income bracket as those Hispanics.... The Asians that wanted better for themselves, moved further south.... Dyker Heights & Bensonhurst are upgrades, compared to Sunset Park..... You can get these disingenuous real estate agents tryna front like sunset park is park slope south all they want, but Brooklynites that know better, know that is absolute BULLshit......

 

As to why they came, the transportation setup is true... However, that bit about comparisons to Manhattan & other places where rents are skyrocketing, not even close.... Sounds like you're regurgitating rhetoric with that..... Simply doesn't fit w/ Asians that done settled in Brooklyn....

 

The other part of this post.... aye, there's always Howard Beach for your Italian-American businesses..... But since you say you don't want the immigrant experience that Queens offers, and it not being your cup of tea & all.....

 

....Even Russian immigrants who have been here for only 30 years are already moving out for greener pastures in the suburbs. Of course not everyone leaves and some decide to stick it out.

 

If city was made more attractive or the middle class with better public schools, more affordable housing and a transportation system that served everyone well, the middle class woudn't be looking to get out. It's no coincidence that many young families who do choose to live in New York, choose the areas that are only 15 to 30 minutes from Manhattan, not those that are 75 to 90 minutes away.

Albeit a different situation with what's going on in Bensonhurst.... Yeah, some of them (Russians) are being bought out in Brighton Beach (quiet is as kept); them and the central americans that live(d) in those garages-turned-houses (lol) on some of those side streets.... Area's slowly getting more and more Asian (Arabic) by the minute.... Neptune av illustrates this....

 

One of the major problems with this city (and I love how Alec Baldwin put it, in a recent (now deleted) tweet) is that the city has become way too tourist dependent & focused on (seemingly) shunning its natives all for that "almighty" dollar.... That in & of itself doesn't help the waning quality of schooling, housing affordability, and of course the ATM MTA..... This city is NOT ideal for families, in general - regardless of how much you get these newspapers that wanna shed light on the yuppified & hipster-ific parts of this city.....

 

"New York City is a mismanaged carnival of stupidity that is desperate for revenue and anxious to criminalize behavior once thought benign."

- Alec Baldwin.

 

Absolute Gold.... Could not agree more.

 

 Theres another element to the trend  ... New York real estate rates are so high that as for lower income class folks they cannot afford living in New York over a period of time anymore. So they begin to go broke, fearing evictions. Because they cant afford the skyrocketing rents out of control, they have no other alternative but to move out of New York into other rural states with a lower cost of living.

 

Gotta love the awesome concept called gentrification and real estate broker greed... Let me throw in deadbeat Albany assemblymen who drag their damn feet in regards to this very real problem and not actually do something about bringing forth initiatives towards rent control options to the table.

 

So therefore many times people dont necessarily move out of NYC out of convenience or because they want to, its because they are practically forced to.

Its not hard to move out of state, the real challenge is surviving the costs of living within the state!

Nailed it IMO... I have to concur w/ this being more of what's going on in this city nowadays, than opposed to those with old money (quote-unquote) looking to get the hell out of dodge for the peaceful/serene life & what not..... You'd like to think it's just the retirees lookin for greener pastures, but realistically, it's far from the case....... People are leaving b/c they simply can't afford to live in (especially, once) affordable areas (doesn't help that the advent of the 1 income family is more apparent, but I'll spare that rant for another time).... You aren't gonna get many, if anyone, living in an area like say, Bay Ridge, moving to Bushwick because they can no longer afford Bay Ridge...

 

Awesome concept of gentrification indeed.... Now all those older folks that (usain) bolted for the suburbs in this city during the 60's & 70's now want back in, along with their (all grown-up now) offspring that are around our ages (30's-40's) - who have offspring themselves.... Just goes to show that gentrification is exactly the opposite of white flight (whoever recently made that comment in the media)....

 

.....The question to ask is if we see so clearly what is happening, where are our elected officials?

Too busy lining their own pockets...

 

To expound on that question I guess, if or when this city goes under, where will these elected officials be?

Maybe they'll take a page out of Walder's book & flee for the Orient.....

[qjtransitmaster]

 

Theres another element to the trend  ... New York real estate rates are so high that as for lower income class folks they cannot afford living in New York over a period of time anymore. So they begin to go broke, fearing evictions. Because they cant afford the skyrocketing rents out of control, they have no other alternative but to move out of New York into other rural states with a lower cost of living. Gotta love the awesome concept called gentrification and real estate broker greed... Let me throw in deadbeat Albany assemblymen who drag their damn feet in regards to this very real problem and not actually do something about bringing forth initiatives towards rent control options to the table.

 

So therefore many times people dont necessarily move out of NYC out of convenience or because they want to, its because they are practically forced to. Its not hard to move out of state, the real challenge is surviving the costs of living within the state!

 

 

Indeed. Thats exactly what happened. I lived it from the very beginnings living in South Brooklyn on and off since birth.

Have you seen North Dakota rents? Dude 

[qjtransitmaster]

Rockaway to sheepshead bay via B4 eastern end and belt parkway can be an option.

[Fresh Pond]

Seriously, what's with you and this bus on the Belt fetish...

[Q43LTD]

Seriously, what's with you and this bus on the Belt fetish...

From what he heard, buses are allowed on the Belt at that point. But still his put buses on the highway infatuation needs to stop...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Still making things up as you go along, I see.....

 

No Asian growth was denied on my end; more reading & believing what you want to believe....

What I'm not agreeing with, is how many Asians YOU came on here claiming that rode the route... Big difference.

 

Obviously they can't all settle in sunset park, due to Hispanics still residing in a lot of that neighborhood..... Not to mention the Asians that (still) live there are in the same income bracket as those Hispanics.... The Asians that wanted better for themselves, moved further south.... Dyker Heights & Bensonhurst are upgrades, compared to Sunset Park..... You can get these disingenuous real estate agents tryna front like sunset park is park slope south all they want, but Brooklynites that know better, know that is absolute BULLshit......

 

As to why they came, the transportation setup is true... However, that bit about comparisons to Manhattan & other places where rents are skyrocketing, not even close.... Sounds like you're regurgitating rhetoric with that..... Simply doesn't fit w/ Asians that done settled in Brooklyn....

 

The other part of this post.... aye, there's always Howard Beach for your Italian-American businesses..... But since you say you don't want the immigrant experience that Queens offers, and it not being your cup of tea & all.....

 

Albeit a different situation with what's going on in Bensonhurst.... Yeah, some of them (Russians) are being bought out in Brighton Beach (quiet is as kept); them and the central americans that live(d) in those garages-turned-houses (lol) on some of those side streets.... Area's slowly getting more and more Asian (Arabic) by the minute.... Neptune av illustrates this....

 

One of the major problems with this city (and I love how Alec Baldwin put it, in a recent (now deleted) tweet) is that the city has become way too tourist dependent & focused on (seemingly) shunning its natives all for that "almighty" dollar.... That in & of itself doesn't help the waning quality of schooling, housing affordability, and of course the ATM MTA..... This city is NOT ideal for families, in general - regardless of how much you get these newspapers that wanna shed light on the yuppified & hipster-ific parts of this city.....

 

Not at all... You're right that in that you didn't deny the growth of the Asian population in Southwest Brooklyn, but we disagree on how many Asians are now riding the B4.  I don't have to make things up. Remember that I've been using that line since the 90's as a kid, so in my mind, if you compare the number of Asians riding now to what was riding back then it is a significant increase, especially in the areas that they get on now.

 

As for the Manhattan situation, think about it.  Asians that can no longer afford to live in Manhattan can still afford to live in the outerboroughs.  A perfect example of this is Pelham Parkway in the Bronx.  It's relatively safe, particularly around the Bronx Zoo, the rents are decent (in comparison to Manhattan) and you have Bronx Science right there.  Transportation options are there as well, so now I've been seeing Asians popping up there of late when taking the express bus there for my tutoring sessions.  $1,400.00 for a one bedroom in Pelham Parkway while expensive, is still a good deal compared to Manhattan because those apartments are generally much bigger in terms of square footage.  Bensonhurst has relatively cheap rents also compared to Manhattan and is safe and has access to train lines that can serve Chinatown, so there is indeed a connection there.

As for Italian-American neighborhoods, I have lived in some that had a decent proportion of Italian-Americans (Sheepshead Bay back in the day had a decent amount of Irish and Italian-Americans before the Russian invasion), as did West Brighton in Staten Island, but that isn't that big of a deal for me.  What I care about is a neighborhood that's safe, has good transportation, and is free of any ghetto element, hence why I moved to Riverdale.  For what it's worth, there are some Italian-Americans here, though their numbers are not that high.  A colleague of mine who is from Italy has relatives living here in Riverdale.  He remarked about how the Bronx is horrible, but how Riverdale was so nice, which I thought was funny.  Even non-Americans know the situation with the Bronx vs Riverdale. LOL

[realizm]

The B4 is not as heavily used by Brooklyn Chinatown residents as much as Bay Ridge residents in my area from my observations as it has access points at 77th Street and 86th Street in proximity for that matter along the R. Its really the B70 that is heavily used by Brooklyn Chinatown riders commuting along 8th Ave with the the brunt of the crowds feeding into the 8th Ave Station on the N in Brooklyn. I mean its really heavy on the B70 in that area in comparison to the B4.

 

Edit:

 

 

What I care about is a neighborhood that's safe, has good transportation, and is free of any ghetto element, hence why I moved to Riverdale.

Oh boy, the ghetto element again in bus discussions, like it matters... what does that have to do with straight bus service talk? Really now that I am looking at it, racial demographics is besides the point... It has nothing to do with bus ridership and straight stats.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The B4 is not as heavily used by Brooklyn Chinatown residents as much as Bay Ridge residents in my area from my observations as it has access points at 77th Street and 86th Street in proximity for that matter along the R. Its really the B70 that is heavily used by Brooklyn Chinatown riders commuting along 8th Ave with the the brunt of the crowds feeding into the 8th Ave Station on the N in Brooklyn. I mean its really heavy on the B70 in that area in comparison to the B4.

 

Edit: Oh boy, the ghetto element again in bus discussions, like it matters... what does that have to do with straight bus service talk?

Actually it matters quite a bit... That's a big reason the Chinese are/have been moving into Bensonhurst... They want a safe neighborhood with reasonable costs.

[realizm]

Actually it matters quite a bit... That's a big reason the Chinese are/have been moving into Bensonhurst... They want a safe neighborhood with reasonable costs.

 

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the MTA and bus service or the B4 because you know it is not as heavily used as the B70 in Brooklyn Chinatown, I would know I live there. Bensonhurst riders for the most part use the D on the BMT West End line not the B4. Thank you.

 

==============================================================

 

Edit after the fact: I am not going to go on and on with this for the next 10 pages upon this seeing the response already as seen below hence the clever edit to save on server space. Like I said references to ghetto neighborhoods vs actual ridership patterns and Brooklyn service issues does not matter when we are talking about ridership patterns in comparison to demographics by population shifts, not ethnic 'invasions' as someone vicariously puts it... 

 

.... oh and you're quite welcome, said as a Borough Park resident since birth.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the MTA and bus service or the B4 because you know it is not as heavily used as the B70 in Brooklyn Chinatown, I would know I live there. Bensonhurst riders for the most part use the D on the BMT West End line not the B4. Thank you.

It most certainly does.  I would know because I've been using the B4 for a good 20 years and see who rides and gets on where.  No, the B4 isn't as heavily used as the B70.  The point is in due time that may change as the demographics change in that area.  Thank you.

[B35 via Church]

Have you seen North Dakota rents? Dude 

This isn't the ND transit forums, "Dude"....

You need to go over to city-data, all jokes aside.... You would fit right in on that forum.

 

Rockaway to sheepshead bay via B4 eastern end and belt parkway can be an option.

This is worse than BrooklynBus' Rockaway-Sheepshead idea..... You'd make that backtrack to the brighton even worse by putting it on the belt.... More unrealistic highway fetishry out of you......

 

Seriously, what's with you and this bus on the Belt fetish...

It's gotten too far out of hand with this guy....

 

Not at all... You're right that in that you didn't deny the growth of the Asian population in Southwest Brooklyn, but we disagree on how many Asians are now riding the B4.  I don't have to make things up. Remember that I've been using that line since the 90's as a kid, so in my mind, if you compare the number of Asians riding now to what was riding back then it is a significant increase, especially in the areas that they get on now.

 

As for the Manhattan situation, think about it.  Asians that can no longer afford to live in Manhattan can still afford to live in the outerboroughs.  A perfect example of this is Pelham Parkway in the Bronx.  It's relatively safe, particularly around the Bronx Zoo, the rents are decent (in comparison to Manhattan) and you have Bronx Science right there.  Transportation options are there as well, so now I've been seeing Asians popping up there of late when taking the express bus there for my tutoring sessions.  $1,400.00 for a one bedroom in Pelham Parkway while expensive, is still a good deal compared to Manhattan because those apartments are generally much bigger in terms of square footage.  Bensonhurst has relatively cheap rents also compared to Manhattan and is safe and has access to train lines that can serve Chinatown, so there is indeed a connection there.

 

As for Italian-American neighborhoods, I have lived in some that had a decent proportion of Italian-Americans (Sheepshead Bay back in the day had a decent amount of Irish and Italian-Americans before the Russian invasion), as did West Brighton in Staten Island, but that isn't that big of a deal for me.  What I care about is a neighborhood that's safe, has good transportation, and is free of any ghetto element, hence why I moved to Riverdale.  For what it's worth, there are some Italian-Americans here, though their numbers are not that high.  A colleague of mine who is from Italy has relatives living here in Riverdale.  He remarked about how the Bronx is horrible, but how Riverdale was so nice, which I thought was funny.  Even non-Americans know the situation with the Bronx vs Riverdale. LOL

Not gonna let you weasel your way out of this one.... I didn't deny the growth of Asian usage on the B4 either.....

 

I still don't believe there are as many of them that use the route as you're claiming; regardless of how long or when you've utilized the route (that's the second time you've stated that, and it still has absolutely no bearing on my opinion).... A disagreement b/w us of how many Asians are riding that route, doesn't all of a sudden equate to some denying I supposedly have of Asians riding the thing (that logic makes absolutely no sense).... Furthermore, you say you don't have to make things up - Then why did you conjure up this blatant lie for:

 

"......then why would you deny how many Asians are now using the B4?"

 

Look, this is what it boils down to.... Had you made your point about changing demographics without claiming how off I was (when I didn't say/implicate squat about any demographics of the route) in my B4 assessment, None of this would be a problem (especially when you didn't bother to debunk anything I said, in beginning that post with such a declaration the way you did..... instead, going off on a tangent of your own)..... If the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't put up with being lied on either....

 

That said...

 

That second paragraph isn't entirely false, but it's still rhetoric.... It's predicated on a notion that Manhattan is the epicenter of where people here aspire to want to live (Asians included).... If you had a bigger sampling of Asians having left Manhattan for Bensonhurst or Dyker Hgts., (or some other area in an outerborough) then (making) such a connection would be more potent...... Hell, outside of certain parts of Brooklyn, the outerboroughs are gonna be cheaper than residing in Manhattan anyway.....

 

Third paragraph, I'm not doing this whole Bronx vs Riverdale thing..... It's been done to death on this forum.

 

The B4 is not as heavily used by Brooklyn Chinatown residents as much as Bay Ridge residents in my area from my observations as it has access points at 77th Street and 86th Street in proximity for that matter along the R. Its really the B70 that is heavily used by Brooklyn Chinatown riders commuting along 8th Ave with the the brunt of the crowds feeding into the 8th Ave Station on the N in Brooklyn. I mean its really heavy on the B70 in that area in comparison to the B4.....

QFT.....

 

The amt. of Asians on the B4 doesn't even come close to the amount of them that are taking B70's.....I can't think of any other route in Brooklyn that have the amount of Asians on them, that the B70 does.... System-wide, you would have to go all the way up to Queens & see the east of flushing, flushing feeders for a better comparison (the Q12's, 13's, 15's of the world).....

[realizm]

QFT.....

 

The amt. of Asians on the B4 doesn't even come close to the amount of them that are taking B70's.....I can't think of any other route in Brooklyn that have the amount of Asians on them, that the B70 does.... System-wide, you would have to go all the way up to Queens & see the east of flushing, flushing feeders for a better comparison (the Q12's, 13's, 15's of the world).....

 

You know the deal.

 

In terms of performance however I will have to toss in the fact that the B70 crawls as it goes through 8th Avenue. Horrible. I mean I can be fastwalking through 8th Avenue and beat the B/O to it @ 8th Ave on the N. Once the B/O escapes the chaos of the commercial area however, it runs decently along Bay Ridge Ave and Ovington Ave to 3rd Ave. Its a similar situation to the B44 +Select Bus Service+ and its problems where it pertains to the B70 and 8th Avenue, major feeder line into the BMT Sea Beach Line, monster.

 

Like how despite the efforts by the NYDOT on zoning the sheer amount of commercial traffic continues puts a dent on the continuity service along Nostrand Avenue in Flatbush, the same goes for the B70 as it moves (well crawls) along 8th Avenue Brooklyn Chinatown for almost identical reasons. 

 

Either way the B70 and the B44 both runs through narrow streets in a extremely busy commercial hub and therefore shares the same problems. However one thing I do not see with the B70 is bus bunching, that's exclusive to the B44, I've seen it for myself. The MTA needs to get the BusTrek system going already. I mean it shouldn't take years to develop when its based on simple GPS and the ame software format as BusTime.

 

And yes as we both know very well the B63 as we both observed is heavy along 5th Ave serving Bay Ridge residents.

 

The B4, Its not heavily utilized by Bensonhurst residents as some might at first glance think, because the BMT West End line runs right smack through the heart of the neighborhood from 71st Street onward. Bensonhurst residents are either car owners or will use the D exclusively in their commute. So on the B4, really not that busy  as we concluded....

 

Its completely isolated from Brooklyn Chinatown so it serves a completely different customer base. The main purpose of the line I guess is to provide non motorist commuters with a Dyker Heights access option to the Narrows which is underused tbh. I cant say if thats the same for the B4 on the Brighton Beach/Coney Island end, unsure on that one it doesnt seem to be in too much usage there either. 

 

And yes I agree for the aforementioned reasons the B44 is a mess... cool idea on paper, in practice a nightmare. I'm unsure if the NYDOT can really do anything about it even with installation of cameras to enforce traffic rules where it pertains to bus lane clearance, the huge problem being Nostrand Ave as compared to Rogers Avenue. But thats already understood.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not gonna let you weasel your way out of this one.... I didn't deny the growth of Asian usage on the B4 either.....

 

I still don't believe there are as many of them that use the route as you're claiming; regardless of how long or when you've utilized the route (that's the second time you've stated that, and it still has absolutely no bearing on my opinion).... A disagreement b/w us of how many Asians are riding that route, doesn't all of a sudden equate to some denying I supposedly have of Asians riding the thing (that logic makes absolutely no sense).... Furthermore, you say you don't have to make things up - Then why did you conjure up this blatant lie for:

 

"......then why would you deny how many Asians are now using the B4?"

 

Look, this is what it boils down to.... Had you made your point about changing demographics without claiming how off I was (when I didn't say/implicate squat about any demographics of the route) in my B4 assessment, None of this would be a problem (especially when you didn't bother to debunk anything I said, in beginning that post with such a declaration the way you did..... instead, going off on a tangent of your own)..... If the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't put up with being lied on either....

Well hey if you've made up your mind on how many Asians are using the B4, then there isn't much that I can say to change your mind.

[realizm]

Well hey if you've made up your mind on how many Asians are using the B4, then there isn't much that I can say to change your mind.

 

Because what B35 Via Church says is true?

 

Facts.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Because what B35 Via Church says is true?

Not at all.... I know what I see with my own eyes when I use the B4.  Maybe what he experiences is different when he rides it.  I can only speak about what I see when I ride it and what I've seen over the 15+ years that I've used the B4.

[realizm]

Not at all.... I know what I see with my own eyes when I use the B4.  Maybe what he experiences is different when he rides it.  I can only speak about what I see when I ride it and when I've seen over the 15+ years that I've used the B4.

 

1) I was born in what is now Brooklyn Chinatown. The B was still running via the West End Line. We still had 4 car R40 Slants. Way back when. The moar you know. Why is this even an issue? This has nothing to do with anything...

 

2) The B70 in terms of annual ridership is 1,906,785 passengers for the year for an increase of >13,808 riders for 2013. Pretty significant. Meanwhile lets see about the growth of Brooklyn Chinatown, the new New Little Fuzhou ( 小福州 ): It increased by 71% since 1988.  It is now larger than even Manhattan Chinatown. You connect the dots. 

 

***3) I still live in Brooklyn to this post made right smack in Brooklyn Chinatown so I would know. 

[B35 via Church]

Well hey if you've made up your mind on how many Asians are using the B4, then there isn't much that I can say to change your mind.

Not at all.... I know what I see with my own eyes when I use the B4.  Maybe what he experiences is different when he rides it.  I can only speak about what I see when I ride it and what I've seen over the 15+ years that I've used the B4.

I know what I see with my own eyes too.... Like this, for instance:

 

"Remember that I've been using that line since the 90's as a kid, so in my mind, if you compare the number of Asians riding now to what was riding back then it is a significant increase, especially in the areas that they get on now."

 

You're so used to (in your 15+ years you keep mentioning, like anyone's doubting how long you've been utilizing the route) seeing the riderbase of the B4 almost totally dominated by white people back in the day, any amount of any other ethnicity that are now riding the B4 you exaggerate.... That right there is your problem.

 

The disagreement (from your original reply to my OP) was never the amount of asians taking the thing back then, compared to now anyway....

 

While I'm not saying you're lying about asians using the B4 (like you tried to pull with me, talking about how I'm denying the growth of them on that route), what you're predicating the amount of them that use it nowadays, is based on a fallacy of Biased sample.... You're conveying there's a slew of them taking the B4 now, [because there was an increase of asians now, compared to back then].... That's fallacious logic.

 

 

But in any event:

Why is this even an issue? This has nothing to do with anything...

I wanna know why was changing demographics even an issue..... I post a general assessment of the B4 saying this:

"The rest of the B4 route (Bay Ridge & Bensonhurst), I wasn't asking you about..... It's certainly more than 15, but the problem is, it's too sporadic & spread out on top of it.... For the most part, the only thing keeping the B4 afloat these days are FHHS kids themselves, Sheepshead riders east of the brighton line (even though those #'s are waning), and those coming off the that reside around/along Bay Ridge pkwy (and it's not that many that one might think it would be, for as long an street bay ridge pkwy is)...... That's basically it."

 

...and he responds in refutation by bringing up changing demographics of that part of Brooklyn it serves..... If he wants to make a point about changing demographics separate from my post there, let him have a happy.... My problem was that he used my B4 assessment as a springboard to talk about something I never hinted towards - in refutation... It comes off as incoherent.....

 

Then he says this, to try to add relevancy to it:

"You don't need to bring up demographics.  I'm bringing it up because the changing demographics there may change the frequency of the B4. Jackie Gleason does a better job than Ulmer Park, but they still play games here and there."

 

Really? I don't need to bring up demographics in defense to his post mentioning demographics, in refutation of my B4 assessment that never mentioned demographics??.... Then on top of that, his reasoning for justifying his primary point - is due to a bringing up of a (yet another) irrelevant point about a change in frequency (stemming from changing demographics)? See what we're dealing with here..... You can't hold an coherent, honest discourse with someone like that.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I know what I see with my own eyes too.... Like this, for instance:

 

"Remember that I've been using that line since the 90's as a kid, so in my mind, if you compare the number of Asians riding now to what was riding back then it is a significant increase, especially in the areas that they get on now."

 

You're so used to (in your 15+ years you keep mentioning, like anyone's doubting how long you've been utilizing the route) seeing the riderbase of the B4 almost totally dominated by white people back in the day, any amount of any other ethnicity that are now riding the B4 you exaggerate.... That right there is your problem.

 

The disagreement (from your original reply to my OP) was never the amount of asians taking the thing back then, compared to now anyway....

 

While I'm not saying you're lying about asians using the B4 (like you tried to pull with me, talking about how I'm denying the growth of them on that route), what you're predicating the amount of them that use it nowadays, is based on a fallacy of Biased sample.... You're conveying there's a slew of them taking the B4 now, [because there was an increase of asians now, compared to back then].... That's fallacious logic.

 

 

But in any event:

I wanna know why was changing demographics even an issue..... I post a general assessment of the B4 saying this:

"The rest of the B4 route (Bay Ridge & Bensonhurst), I wasn't asking you about..... It's certainly more than 15, but the problem is, it's too sporadic & spread out on top of it.... For the most part, the only thing keeping the B4 afloat these days are FHHS kids themselves, Sheepshead riders east of the brighton line (even though those #'s are waning), and those coming off the that reside around/along Bay Ridge pkwy (and it's not that many that one might think it would be, for as long an street bay ridge pkwy is)...... That's basically it."

 

...and he responds in refutation by bringing up changing demographics of that part of Brooklyn it serves..... If he wants to make a point about changing demographics separate from my post there, let him have a happy.... My problem was that he used my B4 assessment as a springboard to talk about something I never hinted towards - in refutation... It comes off as incoherent.....

 

Then he says this, to try to add relevancy to it:

"You don't need to bring up demographics.  I'm bringing it up because the changing demographics there may change the frequency of the B4. Jackie Gleason does a better job than Ulmer Park, but they still play games here and there."

 

Really? I don't need to bring up demographics in defense to his post mentioning demographics, in refutation of my B4 assessment that never mentioned demographics??.... Then on top of that, his reasoning for justifying his primary point - is due to a bringing up of a (yet another) irrelevant point about a change in frequency (stemming from changing demographics)? See what we're dealing with here..... You can't hold an coherent, honest discourse with someone like that.....

I don't know what you don't get. It's pretty simple.  We were talking about service levels on the B4 and ridership growth.  I then stated that the demographics in Southwest Brooklyn and even in Southeast Brooklyn have changed to the point that it will effect ridership growth.  Why is thta such a hard concept to get?  And yes, it is most certainly relevant because when those areas had Americanized whites, the bus wasn't as used as it is now.  Now you have more Asians using it and ethnic whites, and yes I would say that usage from Asians on the line is high compared to years ago when there were no Asians using it.  When you go from zero to several then yes that's an increase that is noticeable in my mind, and that number is likely to continue to increase.  

[realizm]

Original topic:
 

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/05/mta-incompetently-operating-b44-b36-buses-part-1-2/

So it leads to this which was what Brooklyn Bus was NOT getting into:
 

Why would Sheepshead Bay (a majority white neighborhood) need connections to Canarsie (a majority black neighborhood)?!???  

Which leads to this reply to ATH:
 

 

Here we go again with the racism...

Why don't you stay out of the conversation if you have nothing positive to add.

 

Then this reply to B35 Via Church:
 

  What I care about is a neighborhood that's safe, has good transportation, and is free of any ghetto element, hence why I moved to Riverdale.  

 
This reply to B35 Via Church:
 

As for why Italians left, it's very simple.  Bensonhurst overall has always been (until recently) a nice middle class neighborhood that had strong Italian roots because Italian-Americans at that time, as a group were still working their way up the immigration ladder so to speak.  Italians left to the suburbs because they wanted more space.  That's precisely why we left Brooklyn and moved to Staten Island.

And this reply to B35:
 

I have to say that it pains me going through Bensonhurst now, as the area is on the decline.  All of the old school Italian-American businesses are shuttering, as there aren't enough Italian-Americans there to support the business.  86th street is quickly becoming filthy with garbage all over the place and such.  There are still some Italian-Americans left there, but their presence continues to dwindle.

And this reply to B35:
 

Why is thta such a hard concept to get?  And yes, it is most certainly relevant because when those areas had Americanized whites, the bus wasn't as used as it is now.  Now you have more Asians using it and ethnic whites, and yes I would say that usage from Asians on the line is high compared to years ago when there were no Asians using it.  When you go from zero to several then yes that's an increase that is noticeable in my mind, and that number is likely to continue to increase.

Which is what he wasnt trying to get into in the first place.

And more but I will stop here.

I still fail to see why this even bothers you so much. Hey New York is a global power city so you shouldn't be surprised by what you see. That is a moot point. I still even fail to see what this has to do ridership patterns.

I would imagine even the MTA doesn't focus on that for the sake of public relations as that will offend many people. Show me a document from mta.info where they even concentrate on studies based on ethnic groups. (Heres the link: http://www.mta.info/) Because thats my point - its irrelevant. Good luck on that btw.

What you SHOULD be saying to be politically correct about it, which is what Brooklyn Bus, B35 Via Church and myself are saying in regards this so called 'side topic' you are bringing up is that ridership patterns are affected by population shifts, for that matter we don't wish to get into ethnicity issues. Its a sensitive topic that we should not be getting into in a straight transportation discussion.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Original topic:

 

 

So it leads to this:

 

 

Which leads to this reply to ATH:

 

 

Then this reply to B35 Via Church:

 

 

This reply to B35 Via Church:

 

 

And this reply to B35:

 

 

And this reply to B35:

 

 

Which is what he wasnt trying to get into in the first place.

 

And more but I will stop here.

 

I still fail to see why this even bothers you so much. Hey New York is a global power city so you shouldn't be surprised by what you see. That is a moot point. I still even fail to see what this has to do ridership patterns.

 

I would imagine even the MTA doesn't focus on that for the sake of public relations as that will offend many people. Show me a document from mta.info where they even concentrate on studies based on ethnic groups. (Heres the link: http://www.mta.info/) Because thats my point - its irrelevant. Good luck on that btw.

 

What you SHOULD be saying to be politically correct about it, which is what Brooklyn Bus, B35 Via Church and myself are saying in regards this so called 'side topic' you are bringing up is that ridership patterns are affected by population shifts, for that matter we don't wish to get into ethnicity issues. Its a sensitive topic that we should not be getting into in a straight transportation discussion.

Are you kidding me? Spare me with the politically correct nonsense... Ridership patterns... Demographics... Same BS.  In short you're saying that had I said ridership patterns, my point wouldn't be irrelevant with regards to ridership growth on the B4... Smh... That's the whole problem with folks... Too worried about being politically correct.  I'm not worrying about that nonsense.  None of what I've stated has been offensive in any way shape or form.

[BrooklynBus]

@Garibaldi.

 

To say that since the Italians moved out and the Asians moved in, the neighborhood has declined, is a negative statement.

 

@Realism

 

You are correct. Race doesn't matter as far as mass transit goes. If someone needs to get somewhere, the mass transit system needs to serve them. Of course you can't have a direct route where everyone needs to go, but most trips should not require more than two buses, or a bus and several trains.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

@Garibaldi.

 

To say that since the Italians moved out and the Asians moved in, the neighborhood has declined, is a negative statement.

 

@Realism

 

You are correct. Race doesn't matter as far as mass transit goes. If someone needs to get somewhere, the mass transit system needs to serve them. Of course you can't have a direct route where everyone needs to go, but most trips should not require more than two buses, or a bus and several trains.

I made my statement based on actual facts.  The commercial area is dirtier now, so yes it has declined in some parts.  

 

As for race not mattering when people need to get somewhere, no one ever said that it did.  What was stated was that due to changing demographics, ridership on the B4 will probably increase. I don't understand what part of that is so "negative" or "wrong".